Topfire Ball/Battops...

[conseit68]

Ok...from reading the posts, I have seen various attempts at this. But I have become impatient so I am working with Franco to design some sort of stainless/acyrlic shafts and balls/bats with a topfire buttons. Two things I need to know during this brief design stage is:

• common types of joys used
• what kind of demand will there be for these
• any specific dimensions for shafts and balls/bats would be greatly appreciated

Thanks again and lets see if we can finally nail this thing down.

[Timoe]

Definitely make one for the Happs 49way

Combined with the rotary adapter by fl0yd

and the GPwiz 49 from Groovy Game Gear

You've got the one stop all around joystick

edit:  I'd buy 2 to 4 from ya

[RayB]

Have you read this thread?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,20914.0.html

[Timoe]

oooooh but stainless steel................


that would be sweet

[AllisterFiend]

Ok...from reading the posts, I have seen various attempts at this. But I have become impatient so I am working with Franco to design some sort of stainless/acyrlic shafts and balls/bats with a topfire buttons. Two things I need to know during this brief design stage is:

• common types of joys used
• what kind of demand will there be for these
• any specific dimensions for shafts and balls/bats would be greatly appreciated

Thanks again and lets see if we can finally nail this thing down.

You have 4 sales from me if you can do it.  I personally like the Ultimarcs 4-8 way T-Stick Plus original or classic.


http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html


Heres hoping, I've been waiting for a couple of years now for a good top fire joystick that has that classic look and feel of the wico's.


Good Luck,

Allister Fiend

[conseit68]

Allister - Sounds good...if possible get me actual diminsions of the shaft of the T-Stick and how the ball/bat is mounted. Thanks

Timoe - Same thing I was thinking...

Ray B - Yes I did, 2 things turned me away though. First is that they are no longer in stock. Second is that they were very limited in what type of joy you could use. So I wanted to work a more versitile version in and see if anyone else was interested in taking the ride.

Timoe again... - If possible get me actual diminsions of the shaft of the Happs 49 Way and how the ball/bat is mounted. Thanks


I am talking to an acrylics manufacture today to discuss options of colors / transparency / cost. Also, do you guys have any preference on one piece shaft/tops or permantly attaching the shafts to the tops?...

I ask that anyone interested in this provide diminsions to the shaft (if possible). Reason for me asking is that me supply of joysticks is extremely limited, but I am figuring that with the people on here and the length of time that people have waited for this someone with a more extensive supply could assist.

[Timoe]

I have at least one of each of the following


Happ Super
Happ 49 way
Happ Competition
Happ Ultimate
X-Arcade Stick

I dont have those caliper deals for measuring gauges and stuff but I have an architectural and engineering scale (rulers basically) I'll do the best I can unless someone else steps up first.

I will measure them either this weekend or next week.

[Franco]

Ive got the measurements for the T-Stick Plus's and the Happ Mech Rotaries. Ill post them later.

You've got PM too. 

[quarterback]

I have become impatient so I am working with Franco to design some sort of stainless/acyrlic shafts and balls/bats with a topfire buttons. Two things I need to know during this brief design stage is:

• common types of joys used

Wico Wico Wico!

[dphirschler]

I'd be in for a Happs Super bat top with fire button.  That would rock!  If I could simply replace the shaft/handle with the new one and have it match the other Happ Super, I will be extatic!  Please do it!


Darryl

[conseit68]

dphirschler & quarterback,

I assume both of you have these joys you are inquiring about. if so please get me measurements so I can be exact. thanks

[RayB]

dphirschler
If you read the thread I linked to above, you'll see you can hack your own by purchasning a Wico Command Control bathandle, and then modifying it to fit the Super.

[AllisterFiend]

Ive got the measurements for the T-Stick Plus's and the Happ Mech Rotaries. Ill post them later.

You've got PM too. 

Thanks Franco, you've saved me some time 


Allister Fiend

[conseit68]

...bump

Still looking for deminsions for the most commonly used joys. Thanks for all that assist.

Matt

[quarterback]

...bump

Still looking for deminsions for the most commonly used joys. Thanks for all that assist.

Sorry Matt, I don't have an accurate way of measuring the Wicos.  I'm pretty sure that somebody else (with an accurate caliper, unlike mine) has done this before but when I searched earlier, I couldn't find the info.

Let me do some more searching and see if I can find it.

[quarterback]

Here's a pic of a Wico shaft that somebody here on BYOAC took (and measured)



It's a start, although you might notice that the measurements on top don't add up to 3-1/2"

[quarterback]

And here are some posts regarding the diameter of the (lower?) part of the shaft.

BTW, if anyone has a set of calipers and a WICO shaft, please measure it and post the dimensions.

[whammoed]

If you are going to put this kind of effort into it, why not make it "trigger style" instead of top fire?  think tron cocktail...
It would be much more ergonomic as you would be firing with a finger instead of your thumb.
If you make it so its trigger style I'm in.

[quarterback]

If you are going to put this kind of effort into it, why not make it "trigger style" instead of top fire?

[conseit68]

Thanks quarterback...

As for the trigger fire, that is a great idea. One step at a time though. I am still in need of actual deminsions. And so far "quarterback is the only thats had a chance to get back to me.

Thanks for the continued support on this.

Matt

[Timoe]

I will try and find the box that has my 49 ways in it tonight.  I'll try anyway. 

[jlml]

Trigger sticks are what we really need...
It might be a challenge.

Thanks quarterback...

As for the trigger fire, that is a great idea. One step at a time though. I am still in need of actual deminsions. And so far "quarterback is the only thats had a chance to get back to me.

Thanks for the continued support on this.

Matt

[Timoe]

I want Topfires.  definitely topfires.

[AllisterFiend]

I want Topfires.  definitely topfires.

I also would like to see topfires as the only one I can find out there look and feel like crap. (I think they are from happ controls)


Conseit68, did you ever get the measurements for the T-Stick plus?


Allister Fiend

[whammoed]

I want Topfires.

[conseit68]

Ok guys lets not battle over this. I am going to start with the topfire because that is what i want on my bartop  but no worries since i am doing this to help everyone...so trigger fire will come shortly after. i do believe though that we are putting the cart in front of the horse though since i really don't have any solid deminsions for the shafts yet.

Allister - no i do not have the measurements yet. so anything you can do would be greatly appreciated.

[markrvp]

I think I've got all the joysticks for which you want measurements.  I also have a new dial caliper.  Give me a couple of days and I will get measurements for you.

[quarterback]

I think I've got all the joysticks for which you want measurements.

[conseit68]

I agree with quarterback...wooohooo....thanks greatly mark.

[Timoe]

Until Markrvp gets back with the detailed measurements, here are mine for the happ/midway 49-way joystick

[bjk7382]

I also have a new dial caliper.

[Franco]

12" digi verniers? Aint seen them before! $125 seems a tad expensive seeing as you can get a 6" Mituyoto one for

[bjk7382]

12" digi verniers? Aint seen them before! $125 seems a tad expensive seeing as you can get a 6" Mituyoto one for

[conseit68]

ok guys....update

i located a machinist locally. however, franco is still fully in the process with his expertise. so all i need now is the measurements from mark or someone to get these prototypes made...thanks for everyones continued support.

matt

[markrvp]

ok guys....update

i located a machinist locally. however, franco is still fully in the process with his expertise. so all i need now is the measurements from mark or someone to get these prototypes made...thanks for everyones continued support.

matt

I'll get measurements tonight.

[conseit68]

thank you mark...seems like we have a hell of a team in place...hopfully production isnt far off

[Franco]

Thanks for everyones input with the Joystick Dimensions. I think we are going to need more accurate dimensions though, especially in relation to the diameters.

Ideally what we are after is a decent photo of the shafts with the following info. A digital vernier will be accurate enough. If possible to around 0.002" (0.005mm) for diameters and as near as possible for shaft

[AllisterFiend]

Ive got the T-Stick Plus's and Happ Rotaries covered myself. I also have the dim's for the Ms Pac Man shafts, I do need the ball diameter though (I expect you to time in on this one Kremmit!) 

Thanks for all your input guys.

I have a T-Stick Plus that has been sitting in a box for over a year now and I probably wont use it as it has a red handle and does not go with my control panel, If you think you could use it for testing purposes or something, I can send it to you.


Allister Fiend

[conseit68]

your a good man  PM has been sent

[markrvp]

Here's the first batch of measurements.

[markrvp]

Happ Super - This shaft will work for Super AND the MsPacman reunion base.

Please not the plastic spacer at the top of the shaft.  You will either need to mill this as part of the stick OR have the spacer milled out of the same material as the sticks.  When you buy a Super joystick, you get two different spacers.  The spacer height determines how far above the base the stick sits.  With the longer spacer (shown) the E-clip on the bottom goes in the groove closest to the end.  When you use the shorter spacer, the shaft sticks further out the bottom of the base and you put the E-clip in the next groove up.

Happ Super with Longer Spacer

Total length:  6.05

[markrvp]

I just realized something I should have known already.

[conseit68]

Franco...you getting all of this?

[Timoe]

Happ 49 way  (placeholder for baddasssk measurements by markrvp when he has time)   

[Franco]

Markrvp, thats exactly the kind of info im after, awesome job!

[quarterback]

Markrvp, thats exactly the kind of info im after, awesome job!

I agree.

[markrvp]

While we're at it, I pulled a Happ Competition stick from my CP to measure.  Nice surprise.  The Happ Super stick will fit right in the Competition base.  You use the middle E-clip groove underneath.  Here's a pic to show what I mean:

[markrvp]

Just to make sure I'm understanding:  are you saying that the Tornado Terry longer sticks are really balltop Super shafts with an aluminum sleeve?

I believe Terry had his sticks custom made (possibly from IL directly) because they have the same ball top as the reunion sticks.  He just had them extended 3/4" and added two E-clip notches and two sleeves so that you can use them in either wood or metal CPs.

Also, by looking at the two pictures you posted, it appears that the Reunion stick is actually a ball topped Competition shaft with an additional e-clip ring at the top (instead of the yellow plastic) and with only the bottom of the 3-grooves

I've not heard/seen this before.  Can you confirm?

I think the reunion shaft is something different.  The Super and Competition are identical metal shafts, just the plastic top and their distance to the notches is different.  Pics below.

What I have found is that if one Top-fire stick is made based on the Super stick, then it will also work in the Super, Competition, and Reunion bases. 

If additional E-clip notches are also added with corresponding length sleeves, then you can also adjust how high the handle sits above the panel.  Of course you can also adjust your stick higher by routing out material under the panel, OR adjust your stick lower by adding washers between the joystick base and the CP bottom.

[markrvp]

When you look at the pic above, you can see that an E-clip would work on Terry's stick just like the regular Reunion stick (pictured below).  However, when mounted high you would see the top-most e-clip groove if the sleeve didn't cover it.   The sleeve acts as both the E-clip ridge and to hide that groove.

[RayB]

Don't forget to consider the diameter of the shafts. Looks like the competition is much smaller than the Super.

But a Wico shaft is about 1 or 2 mm wider than a Super shaft, so maybe you should be measuring this as well just to be safe...
(assuming you haven't already  )

[markrvp]

Don't forget to consider the diameter of the shafts. Looks like the competition is much smaller than the Super.

That's a little picture distortion, the shafts are exactly the same diameter.  I put the Super shaft into the competition base and actually played with it to make sure it would work.

[dphirschler]

Man I just love the Happs Super.  Looking at those shafts just makes me want to play.  I sure hope a top-fire version gets done.


Darryl

[markrvp]

Where did my post go regarding diameters?

I had posted: The Wico shafts are about 1 or 2 mm in diameter wider than a Super shaft. If you haven't already considered this, please do.


(PS: The two threads should be merged.....)

Ray:

Look at the bottom of page 1 in this thread for the detailed measurements of the Wico 3.5" & 4" shafts. 

I agree that separate sticks will be needed for Wico & Happ joysticks.  However, the stick that fits the Happ super will also work in the Happ Competition and Reunion bases.

[RayB]

Ray:
Look at the bottom of page 1 in this thread for the detailed measurements of the Wico 3.5" & 4" shafts.

[quarterback]

lets not go off subject quarterback...please lets not hijack this thread with talks of buying shafts from others

   Sorry.  I've deleted some of my OT posts.  I just got excited when I saw all those pictures with specific measurements and all 

[conseit68]

as we can all understand...its getting closer...woo hoo

[MinerAl]

I think the "sleeve" is the key to easy trigger style sticks.  Make a slightly thicker sleve with a trigger or even a simple push button at the top, and figure a way to keep it from spinning and I think you have your trigger stick with any stick you want.

[AllisterFiend]

Ive got the T-Stick Plus's and Happ Rotaries covered myself. I also have the dim's for the Ms Pac Man shafts, I do need the ball diameter though (I expect you to time in on this one Kremmit!) 

Thanks for all your input guys.

I have a T-Stick Plus that has been sitting in a box for over a year now and I probably wont use it as it has a red handle and does not go with my control panel, If you think you could use it for testing purposes or something, I can send it to you.


Allister Fiend

Conseit68,

T-Stick Plus on it's way, let me know if you receive it. should be there by Friday or Saturday.


I sent you a PM with tracking info if your are interested in having that.

I just want to thank You and Franco for you time and dedication, and everyone else who is helping this project along.


Allister Fiend

[RayB]

I MIGHT HAVE A SOLUTION!

It's common knowledge that Wico's Command Control "home" joysticks used arcade parts. I have one of their "Boss" joysticks, which is a "grip" style controller. I will open it up and see what they did to keep it from spinning.

~Ray B.

[conseit68]

UPDATE from Franco...

He is in the process of drawing up the information that Markrvp has been so kind enough to provide. Once complete I will have the machinist build a prototype of each and get some photographs. I would like to extend a special thanks to the "team" for this project (you know who you are) everyone's continued support has been invaluable.

Matt

[Grasshopper]

It's an interesting idea but could you give us some idea of prices before we all get our hopes up.

Manufacturing custom parts in small quantities can be very expensive. According to Franco the metal sleeves under the bat/ball alone would cost about $10 to manufacture.

[conseit68]

Patience young grasshopper

Actually I am tring to calculate costs as we speak. You have to figure in many angles as you clearly indicated. But I do feel confident that a reasonable price will be reached. One thing that will play a factor is the market of people interested in these. But with the vast difference in prices with current joys on the market I assure that it won't "break" anyone's bank. With all of that being said, I need to get the designs finalized and the prototypes made (costs for prototypes coming out of my pocket alone) before any concrete prices can be presented.

Thanks,
Matt

[conseit68]

UPDATE...the machinist has the majority of the posts in this thread as reference. I explained the need for only one Happs shaft to cover them all. One question though...which Wico would be preferred 3.5" or 4"? Thanks for the support.

Matt

[markrvp]

I vote 4" Wico.  If they stick up too high you can use washers between the joystick base and bottom of the control panel to lower the height.

[RayB]

Compromise with 3.75" ?

[Grasshopper]

Although 3.5" shafts are difficult to mount on to wood I prefer them because I think the 4" shafts make the joystick's throw too long.

[markrvp]

Compromise with 3.75" ?

I'm thinking inside the box.  Since you're making them from scratch, they can be any length.  I think 3.75" would be nicer than 4".

[Grasshopper]

How about a 3.5" shaft supplied with a 0.5" metal sleeve and extra groove so it can be converted to a 4", or would that add too much to the cost?

[quarterback]

How about a 3.5" shaft supplied with a 0.5" metal sleeve and extra groove so it can be converted to a 4", or would that add too much to the cost?

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Additionally, I just posted a thread here about how I got a Wico stick to work in my Ms. Pac Reunion joystick base (which is basically a Happ Super).

[conseit68]

Thanks for the information quarterback. I will look into what your saying. Without a little more testing though, the idea is for shaft replacements without any additional parts for the end-user to have to purchase. As for the firing aspect...I am still stumped but working through it. As for the Wico shafts it seems we have concluded a 3.75" shaft. I am simple so thats what it shall be

[Grasshopper]

Why not copy the Ms Pacman/Galaga shaft design and have a groove and e-clip at the top and bottom of the shaft? You could then achieve height adjustability simply by adding extra grooves.

[Kremmit]

Why not copy the Ms Pacman/Galaga shaft design and have a groove and e-clip at the top and bottom of the shaft? You could then achieve height adjustability simply by adding extra grooves.

Somebody's going to be talking about intellectual property here, real soon.

[conseit68]

Somebody's going to be talking about intellectual property here, real soon.

Blah Blah Blah
It bothers me that everyone lately comes to money and how to make a profit with the members here. I truly don't care who comes out with the product first. I am doing this first because I need a good topfire. Secondly, I figured that if anyone wanted to take the ride with me then they would be more than welcome. One note though is that it is my understanding that "Silkstik" is coming out with their own complete topfire joy. We on the other hand are coming up with a solution to simply convert existing and commonly used joys into ball/bat top AND front fires. I have also openly asked for assistance from many members here and with great response we are nearly complete...so if anyone else (even Silkstik) would like to pitch in then I would be happy to hear them. Thanks for listening to my ranting

[conseit68]

Ok very small update...

Markrvp has completed all measurements to my understanding
Franco is almost complete with the CAD drawings (Wico already received!!!)
Machinist 90% complete first prototype (Pics and suggestions soon)

Thanks again for everyones assistance and patience.

Matt

[Timoe]

Will there be a 49way?   

[conseit68]

49way...are your refering to happs or midway?...happs (yes) midway ()

[Timoe]

happs, awesome, I cant wait to see the prototype images!

[slayj]

How about a P360.  I would LOVE to have a top fire for these!!!

[conseit68]

yep 360's also...

haven't forgotten about anyone...my machinist got hit with a ton of "real" work, so things have been delayed slighty.

thanks for everyone's patience,
Matt

[Franco]

Sorry for the delay on the drawings too. Im just moving house at the moment and everything is a bit hectic. Will get some more .dwgs to you asap.

[whammoed]

Regarding the stick spinning and twisting the wires:
Don't know if you noticed how slik stik solved the problem but instead of keeping the handle from spinning they used an audio jack and cable that allows the stick to spin freely but not twist the wires.  Heres the pic.  You might consider something similar.  Seems like it would be cheaper, easier, and work for all joystick bases obviously. 

[RayB]

WHAT A NOVEL IDEA!!!!!!!!!! DANG I should do that too with mine!
 

[conseit68]

genius whammo...your my new best friend... 

thank you for posting those...back to work i go...

Franco...Markrvp...you guys getting this?...

[whammoed]

genius whammo...your my new best friend...

[markrvp]

Looks like a good solution.  All you need is a mono 1/8" jack.  Then you can get a 1/8" cable with plug and cut off the end you don't need.  Then just run those to your encoder (1 wire is ground, the other goes to the correct input).

[richms]

Looks like a good solution.  All you need is a mono 1/8" jack.  Then you can get a 1/8" cable with plug and cut off the end you don't need.  Then just run those to your encoder (1 wire is ground, the other goes to the correct input).

They are obviously using the 4 position 2.5mm sockets like nokias have for headsets, I guess if you used the same plug you could have both 2 colours of illumination and the button or multiple buttons if you were to put a flightstick type control on (ooooooh hatswitch

[slayj]

Any new news guys..............??

[AllisterFiend]

BUMP!!!


Anyone still looking into this?

I know this is an old thread but I see all these new products coming out but no one seems to be tackling this one.  Am I the only one out there who thinks there needs to be a better topfire joystick than the one that happs sells.  It's awful looking and does not even fit in with my control panel.

It would be nice to see RandyT incorporate a topfire into his GPWiz49 joystick.


Hint, Hint , You have 4 sold already if you decide to market one.

Allister Fiend