MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[ChadTower]

That could be what he's doing.

[jfunk]

Heh.  With all that's happened, the title of this ebay auction makes me chuckle:

ULTRACADE NOS Side ART both sides -perfect for MAME cab

I'm guessing it won't be around long 

(Please note, this is just something that made me laugh.  I'm not sure, yet, where I stand on this whole mess, so please don't take this as my entry into the debate    )

Here you go, Paige..  Complete that cab 

[Chris]

If the MAMEDevs have any sense of humor, they'll leave that one up! 

[paigeoliver]

Heh.  With all that's happened, the title of this ebay auction makes me chuckle:

ULTRACADE NOS Side ART both sides -perfect for MAME cab

I'm guessing it won't be around long 

(Please note, this is just something that made me laugh.  I'm not sure, yet, where I stand on this whole mess, so please don't take this as my entry into the debate    )

Here you go, Paige..  Complete that cab 

If there was a "buy it now" then it would already be gone.

[Tiger-Heli]

If there was a "buy it now" then it would already be gone.

Okay, everyone don't bid and let Paige get this one (if it hangs around).  I won't post his E-bay name, but it's similar to his avatar.  (Paige let me know if that was out-of-bounds and I'll edit it out).

[paigeoliver]

It will never last the 6 days it has remaining, and if I DID get it then I would probably (STUPIDLY) apply it to my woodgrain cabinet that has the Ultracade marquee.

But if there had been a buy it now button then I would have already bought it.

But I DO have a bid in, so lets see what happens.

[Lilwolf]

btw.. I love your ebay name!

[KevSteele]

Kevin, you can take offense to this part: It didn't surprise me in the least to click on your ad that brought me directly to this page: http://www.arcadegamesuperstore.com/arcadelegends.htm

[RayB]

MAME is the victim of its own success right now. Hopefully things will settle down and once the dust clears we can all have a clearer view of where things are headed...
Kevin

Kind of like Napster.

[Tiger-Heli]

Kind of like Napster.

Bingo!  With one notable, previously mentioned exception - MP'3 were a different format of songs that were clearly copyright protected.  ROMS as far as I know (at least the classics) were previously not copyrighted because at the time they were produced, no one could imagine them being duplicated, AFAIK.

[KevSteele]

Kind of like Napster.

Bingo!

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't know how it all works in the software world, but I know that creative works are automatically copyrighted at the time of creation (whether or not you apply for a copyright).

Except I think it makes a difference if you publish the work (in this case, release the game) and it gets out in the public domain and you don't challenge violations of it.  I.E. if Namco comes down on most Pac-Man repro artwork (which they do) they can enforce a copyright on it.  I'm not sure if they can say "MAME violated out game copyright eight years ago and we didn't challenge it, but now we're upset.

The MP3 format and readers can be analgous to MAME, while ROMs and songs ripped into MP3 format are similar, at least the way I'm looking at the situation.

Technically, I disagree, although I think it might not be especially hard to convince a judge to see it your way, which would probably be all it takes.

[KevSteele]

Except I think it makes a difference if you publish the work (in this case, release the game) and it gets out in the public domain and you don't challenge violations of it.

I don't know if you need to enforce a copyright to keep it. It's not like a trademark, which must be enforced.

That's one of the problems here: copyrights, trademarks, and patents all protect IP, but in different ways and with different rules and loopholes.

Kevin

[Haze]

I don't see how the Napster comparisons apply.

MAME does not in any way facilitate the sharing of ROM files.

If you must compare MAME to something related to the music situation then compare it to Foobar, or Winamp.  It knows how to play the files, but does not come with them.

MAME contains a database of known ROM images, and how to load them, that in itself I'm pretty sure can't be considered Illegal, consider it like a fan site with a tracklisting of the CD on it, and information on track lengths.  (Aren't there free legal databases of this type of thing used for identifying CDs? http://www.freedb.org/ etc?)

MP3s/Roms also isn't a great comparison, MP3s are reduced in size to make distribution easier at the cost of quality (as MP3 is a lossy compression format)  The ROM images supported by MAME aren't modified in any way, they are as read from the arcade PCBs, ease of distribution is not our concern.  (Zip is supported for convenience as the zip structure contains CRC information etc, we've rejected multiple requests to make Mame support other compression schemes like Rar to save space)

One thing you can be sure of, if somebody did write a P2P program and integrated it with MAME so that Roms were automatically shared we would make every effort to get them shut down, but until that day MAME can't be compared with Napster.

I will however agree that MAMEs popularity is a large problem.

[KevSteele]

My comparison was with MP3 players (ala Winamp), so it sounds like we're closer on that part.

Basically, the infractions come when someone rips a song image or a ROM image and then shares it.

MAME is not facilitating ROM IP violations in any way other than allowing you to actually do something with that ROM image once you've (illegally) obtained it.

That may be enough of a violation to a judge, but I doubt it - RIO survived legal threats that claimed MP3 players facilitated copyright infringement, and I think that RIAA has given up on trying to squash MP3 players now that legal DRM songs are available.

In other words, legal ROMs would be a godsend in this situation, essentially removing the main reason to step on the MAME project anymore.

Kevin

[Shape D.]

legal ROMs would be a godsend in this situation

There are, www.starroms.com    Not many but there are legal roms out there.

[KevSteele]

legal ROMs would be a godsend in this situation

There are, www.starroms.com

[Crazy Cooter]

I hate to stir the pot here, but Foley did two things in his trademark grab: he got the phrase and the logo.

It can be argued that his grabbing the phrase MAME was possibly legal (unethical, but legal) since it was not being used in a commercial fashion.

The logo, on the other hand, was copyrighted material that was not his in any shape or form.

Kevin, read what I pointed out to you on the governments USPTO site.

[Haze]

Yes, StarRoms having Atari Roms available and Hanaho with the Capcom Classics is undoubtedly good for Mame in that sense.  They do give people who wish to actually play the games a legal way of doing so without interfering with the actual development of Mame in any way.

Legal roms could end up presenting a little of a headache for the devs as people who have purchased roms seem to think they have even more right to expect them to work than others (although they seem to be more of a problem with those who have purchased them off illegally scumbags on ebay, I don't recall anybody complaining about their Legal roms)  We're not a support team, we're a development team, although so far, as mentioned, we haven't really had any major issues with this from legal buyers, despite making major changes to several Atari sets over time so fingers crossed things stay that way and that the people purchasing the legal sets remain more polite about things.

The DRM Roms issue mentioned in previous threads on this board is something more of a concern, thankfully nobody has attempted this yet, I don't think it could work anyway so theres probably no need to worry about that... To me it is a highly gamer-orientated idea which would seriously hinder development and make using the roms for other legitimate purposes (repairs etc.) and compatibility with other emulators impossible.  DRM, open source software and development projects don't really mix.

It would be nice to see more people like Star Roms, although people should keep in mind that in most cases these roms are being licensed for home use *only*.

Love him or hate him it will be interesting to see what Ultracade come up with because we're always glad to see legal sources of ROMs.

[Crazy Cooter]

Take a look at the Ultracade site http://www.ultracade.com/, read the front page and point out what benefits us.

Look at the StarRoms site http://www.starroms.com/, read the front page and point out what benefits us.

Who would better serve our interests?

[Crazy Cooter]

While I'm ranting about Ultracade, Look at his "usblinx".

I'm not an expert, but can anyone name the emulators besides MAME that can support dual trackballs.  If he thinks MAME is soo illegal, why is he selling products aimed for it?  The dude is a walking contradiction.  I hope he gets ZERO support from the industry.  I know for a FACT he won't from Namco, he was already busted for selling their ROM's illegally (how soon we all forget huh?).  He already demanded money from people with his illegally filed MAME trademark, he already pulled numerous auctions on ebay...

Yet people think the MAMEdevs are the bad ones.   Yeah, what have they ever done to make you're life more enjoyable?

Beware Haze, the only way Foley will ever get distribution rights is with DRM.  He doesn't want ROM's that will be compatible with MAME because it isn't his.  He's aiming for the cabinets, the ROM's, and the emulator.  Then nobody can compete without paying the "Foley Fee"^TM.  He doesn't care about fixing old boards, his concern is maximizing profit margins.

[kahlid74]

Beware Haze, the only way Foley will ever get distribution rights is with DRM.

[MrTroy]

Then nobody can compete without paying the "Foley Fee"TM.

The Foley Fee! No one can stop the Foley Fee.

Oh man I can't stop laughing.

[Q*Bert_OP]

I hate to stir the pot here, but Foley did two things in his trademark grab: he got the phrase and the logo.

It can be argued that his grabbing the phrase MAME was possibly legal (unethical, but legal) since it was not being used in a commercial fashion.

The logo, on the other hand, was copyrighted material that was not his in any shape or form.

Kevin, read what I pointed out to you on the governments USPTO site.

[RayB]

FYI all of you...

When I said "Like Napster" I was not comparing the two apps' functions. I was referring to this:

Napster was fine as an underground tool and it was tolerated for quite some time until it became too popular and received mainstream attention. The inevitable outcome was that Napster died. It was a victim of it's own success.

Kevin said: "MAME is the victim of its own success right now. Hopefully things will settle down and once the dust clears we can all have a clearer view of where things are headed..." To which I replied "Like Napster".

Do you guys understand the comparison now?

~Ray B.

[ChadTower]

[amerish]

I agree that the developers have a right to protect MAME. I believe people have a right to sell hardware that can be used with MAME and should be able to mention that the hardware can be used with MAME.

One of the real problems is the bundling of roms with the hardware... Still today if you search ebay you can find machines with MAME and roms loaded...

<Link pulled by saint - ebay auction appeared to contain illegal software on cabinet>

Take out the roms!!!

from the auction
You are looking at a custom built Mini MAME arcade machine. MAME is Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator. This is a compact cabinet (styled like a Pac-man) designed to be an attractive, fun addition to the rec-room without taking up the space of a full sized machine. Its dimensions are: 13"W*25"H*26"D roughly and weighs just enough to be sturdy in game play.
It has a vertically mounted 14" monitor, PII computer, IPACve USB control interface, and controls consisting of an 8way joystick, 6 game buttons, coin and player start buttons. The computer and monitor power switches are both external so no reason to open it up- however its easy to get into.

I will leave software installed- up to the buyer to deal with licensing issues.