q*bert knocker

[SirPoonga]

Thanks 1up.  A project I wanted to do for years might happen soon   I received a gottlieb knocker.  I am going to try and get it working with qbert.  Might need one of those new led controllers

Anyway, if you don't know, the knocker takes 27v to knock.  A little more than what you can get from a pc without some sort of invertor circuit. 
I think I have the right toroid for task.  I have a toroid that produces 28v when run through an ac-dc circuit.  would just need the right relay then, right?

Of course then I'd need qbert to trigger it (but not through the keyboard leds like that one specific compile of mame does).

[SirPoonga]

Anyone with more electronics experience help me out with this?  I haven't dealt with this much power directly before.  Maybe I should just find a premade ~27v power supply off a website.  I don't want to deal with this toroid that much.  I haven't dealt with them before.
I originally picked up the toroid for a DIY bass amp kit, so all the work was done for me, I just follow instructions.  But that fell through for various reasons.

So now I have this toroid and I think it is convenient since I need 27V  DC and it produces 28V DC when run through an AC-DC rectifier.

To use the toroid all I need to do is on the side that connects to the mains i put an on/off switch for safety.  It has something like 2x19v outputs.  I would have to look up the specs again to verify.  Whatever the specs are when multiplied by that 1.414 number (or was it 1.1414) when run through a rectifier bridge it produced 28V.

I will try and find the specs for it again and post them.  I think it was 230VAC, but don't quote me right now.  I bought it on ebay, they guy listed specs.  But when I looked up the serial number I found different specs.  Which is what really scares me, I need a way to find out what this is exactly.  The manufacturer must not make it anymore, I can't find info from the manufacturer.

[Timoe]

whats a "knocker"?

[crashwg]

whats a "knocker"?

It whacks the bottom or side of the cabinet to make a thud sound when qbert falls of and hits the "ground".

[RandyT]

About 20minutes left on this.

$25 plus shipping, but it's cheaper than dead 

RandyT

[Avery]

Hey SirPoonga,

Could we persuade you to post a picture or three of your knocker?  I'd love to have one in the cab I'm working on but I'm guessing finding an original is going to be tough.

Thanks in advance.

[JoyMonkey]

Yeah, photos of knockers are always appreciated (teehee! sorry, couldn't resist)

[allroy1975]

it's just a pinball solonoid isn't it?

same thing that's in a pinball game and thumps when you get a free game etc..

Allroy

[SirPoonga]

About 20minutes left on this.

$25 plus shipping, but it's cheaper than dead 

RandyT

Thanks Randy, too late to bid on.  When I get home I will search around ebay for a better solution then hooking up a toroid from scratch.

[SirPoonga]

it's just a pinball solonoid isn't it?

same thing that's in a pinball game and thumps when you get a free game etc..

Allroy

Yes, gottlieb just put a pinball knocker in there.  That's all I have, a pinball knocker.  No such thing as an official qbert knocker since it was just a pinball knocker.

[SirPoonga]

Hey SirPoonga,

Could we persuade you to post a picture or three of your knocker?  I'd love to have one in the cab I'm working on but I'm guessing finding an original is going to be tough.

Thanks in advance.

When I start building this there will be plenty of pics.  Saint already suggested that to me a while ago
But if you want to know what one is I will post a small pic when I get home if I cna find my digicam.  It's in a box somewhere from the move.  I think I know where...

[SirPoonga]

my only other problem then will be to trigger it.  I could use the specific build of mame that uses the keyboard led to trigger it, but I use my keyboard leds.
I played around with the qbert driver.  I was able to setup a timer so when the knock sample sound is sounded to display a 1 at command line then a 0 a half a second later.  Timing will be crucial to make it work and sound good.  I just need ot send that 1 and 0 to some device that will talk to a relay to trigger the solenoid.  That's the tough part.  I could do a simple hack to the parallel port but I'd like a more modern day solution, like a USB i/o device.

[SirPoonga]

Here's the pinball solenoid.

[KenToad]

I can't help you at all, SirPoonga, but, if you could get it all setup and working and box it up and send it to me for $10 shipped, that'd be just dandy. 

Thanks in advance.

I love FHMC Q*Bert when he falls and curses.  The thunk would just make it super duper awesome.  I would even try to hook it up for Crazy Climber, except there should be a delay depending upon how high you are.

Cheers and good luck,
KenToad

[allroy1975]

If I remember right, Q-bert was just about the only video game that ever did this. (use pinball parts) but it DID use it.  Crazy Climber therefore wouldn't know how or when to make the thunk.  You'd have to re-write the code.

Allroy

[koolmoecraig]

Yo. This has been done and there is a build of MAME for it. Oh yeah, paying $25 for a knocker is just insane.

Here is the definitive source about it:

http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp#pictures

As you will see on Johns site, you just hack into a 30v power supply from Radio Shack for the power.

There is no substitute for playing Q*bert with a knocker. And to all of you people who make "knocker" jokes, what great senses of humor and sharp wit you have!

[koolmoecraig]

Here is a pic of my factory Q*bert knocker.

[koolmoecraig]

One more thing. Here is the thread for my Q*Bert Mame.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,26333.0.html

Peace ya'll.

[SirPoonga]

Yo. This has been done and there is a build of MAME for it. Oh yeah, paying $25 for a knocker is just insane.

If you read my previous statements I am not goin this route.  I am not going to use that specific build of mame because it relied on the keyboard leds, which I use.

I have to make my own...
I even said that in the thread you linked

However, where I need ot modify the code is the same, just need to output to a different device.

[RandyT]

Yo. This has been done and there is a build of MAME for it. Oh yeah, paying $25 for a knocker is just insane.
...
As you will see on Johns site, you just hack into a 30v power supply from Radio Shack for the power.

Just the RS power supply costs $23.00.

Factor in the relay and other misc. components, not to mention the cost of sales tax and the solenoid itself and you will be well past $25.

So what's your point with the above comment?

RandyT

[JoyMonkey]

my only other problem then will be to trigger it.  I could use the specific build of mame that uses the keyboard led to trigger it, but I use my keyboard leds.
I played around with the qbert driver.  I was able to setup a timer so when the knock sample sound is sounded to display a 1 at command line then a 0 a half a second later.  Timing will be crucial to make it work and sound good.  I just need ot send that 1 and 0 to some device that will talk to a relay to trigger the solenoid.  That's the tough part.  I could do a simple hack to the parallel port but I'd like a more modern day solution, like a USB i/o device.

There's probably some way you could use AdvMame's event.dat and a script in advmame.rc. I'm not the most knowledgeable person regarding this, but if you knew what the cpu/memory address of the knock, you could add it as an event in event.dat, then add a script that says 'when knock happens, send a signal to a certain pin of the parallel port'. I think.

[2600]

SirPoonga,

I'm not sure where you are at this point, but I was planning to just use the tried and true circuit like at John's Retrocade.  But like you just trigger it differently, instead of the keyboard LEDs.  I'm waiting for RandyT's and the Buddabing/Gamecab circuits to come out to see if those meet my requirements for this project, if not use my own circuit.  I think RandyT's is USB, and the Gamecab is parrallel port.  If you require USB, then RandyT's may work.  Although, You may have to write a little program if RandyT's doesn't meet your requirements(If he'll allow you  ).  Unless you are looking to design your own generic USB I/O device?  At any point it may be worth putting this on hold for a month or so to see what is commercially offered unless you are comfortable with designing your own.

[SirPoonga]

Unless you are looking to design your own generic USB I/O device?  At any point it may be worth putting this on hold for a month or so to see what is commercially offered unless you are comfortable with designing your own.

Oh no.  I've already lookedinto this.  Producing a simple usb I/O device is cheap, like under $10.  But developing costs like $100 in supplies.

[2600]

Unless you are looking to design your own generic USB I/O device?  At any point it may be worth putting this on hold for a month or so to see what is commercially offered unless you are comfortable with designing your own.

Oh no.  I've already lookedinto this.  Producing a simple usb I/O device is cheap, like under $10.  But developing costs like $100 in supplies.

I'm not clear.  Is this the approach you are taking, designing your own?

[SirPoonga]

no, I will see if I can use or hack something available.

[2600]

Have a look at this link. John has solved the knocker problem on his machine. 

http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp

I can hear SirPoonga sigh from here.

[SirPoonga]

Have a look at this link. John has solved the knocker problem on his machine. 

http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp

I can hear SirPoonga sigh from here.

I know, people don't read

[SirPoonga]

I think I could control via serial port using the RTS pin.  The question is can I get mame to  output to serial port.  I don't know mingw too well.  There might be a library to grab or something.
But then it could be adapted to USB if needed, plenty of serial to usb adaptors out there.

[JoyMonkey]

How about the parallel port?

Seems to me the easiest thing to do would be use AdvMame. I mentioned this earlier but nobody commented on it. The way is monitors events (like Q*Bert falling to his death) and gives you control over the parallel port would be very handy for this project. No compiling necessary. It might be able to control the serial port too, here's the scripting doc

[SirPoonga]

I was looking at advmame.  From what I see qbert knock is not an event.  I grabbed the advmame source code and they don't modify any of the drivers, so it wouldn;t know the qbert "event".  I'll have to ask on the forum.

I don't want to do parallel port because that isn't forward thinking.  Legacy ports are dying.  I don't like the serial idea, but there are usb to serial convertors that are cheap.  There are parallel to usb convertors, but those aren't cheap.

[JoyMonkey]

I was looking at advmame.  From what I see qbert knock is not an event.  I grabbed the advmame source code and they don't modify any of the drivers, so it wouldn;t know the qbert "event".  I'll have to ask on the forum.

My understanding is that anything can be added as an event. You edit the even.dat to suit your needs (by default it contains lots of 'coin' and 'attract mode' events for use with AdvMame's 'safequit' feature). You need a debug build of Mame to monitor for the Q*Bert death, then add its  CPU memory address as an event under qbert in event.dat
I'm trying to add a few events myself, but don't have a debug build of Mame.

[2600]

I don't have the source in front of me and , but isn't the knocker an 'event' by default in MAME.  They have a knocker sample.  So they need to know when to trigger that sample and I'd assume they figured it out.  Haven't looked at it for a couple of months so I could be wrong.

If you want to do Serial port, I'd still wait for Buddabings stuff.  His source will be open and writing to the parrallel port will be very similar to the serial port.  Plus he's doing the harder part of making it work in XP and 2000 since you need an additional dll or code for direct access to those ports.

[Druin]

I just need ot send that 1 and 0 to some device that will talk to a relay to trigger the solenoid.

[Druin]

I think I could control via serial port using the RTS pin.

[Lilwolf]

doesn't it seem like this could / should be part (at least software wise) with the LED project? 

And another question.  The knocker.  If you keep power on it... doesn't it just stay out?  I wanted to find a servo (not sure the name) that would allow me to have my control panels lock/unlock from software.  It would be cool to have it combined (IE, its useful for more then qbert... but when playing qbert, it wacks the side... of course it would also unlatch my control panel... might not be a good combo after all

[SirPoonga]

yeah, that's why I am sorta waiting on the LED boards and seeing how programmable with mame.  That could work out.

Yeah, you apply power to the coil on the solenoid, it creates a magnetic field, the rod moves and stays.  That's how large security doors sorta work, but on their own poewer system.  Large magnets and solenoids to lock the doors.

hence why you'd need a computer controlled relay switch for this.

[2600]

For Lilwolf and SirPoonga,

I thought the solenoid would overheat and if you had a fuse(you probably should) it would blow it if you kept it out.

[SirPoonga]

Could be.  But power isn't  always going to be aplied.

[2600]

Sorry didn't add enough info, Lilwolf was talking about if the solenoid was kept out, which does require power to be applied.

Should of quoted him.

[SirPoonga]

yep yep.

My current plan of attack is if possible use serial port (then if I need usb in the future I cna use a convertor), use the RTS pin since that is one of the few pins you have complete control over.  Well, I have to see if I can control it form withing the qbert driver.  I don't know mingw enough to know how to do that.

I have to talk to the people doing hte LED boards.  I know budda uses a dll or something like that to have direct access.  I was reading, mingw does have a win port of CreateFile() (or something named simular like that) which is how you access the parallel port in both 98 and NT worlds.  It's a pain to work with though.  Might not need a dll...

[SirPoonga]

oh yeha.  I will still do the serial port thing if I can figure it out.  It's cheaper than buying an LED board.  But if you are getting an LED board it probably would be smarter to use that.

[gl.tter]

I've just added the knocker signal to my internal LSE build.  You'll be able to map this to any keyboard LED out-of-the-box with any MAME version that supports my code.

You should also be able to use it with any hardware controller that will support the LSE signals (depending on how they implement it).

Question for you, is there any other game that uses a knocker?  There's partial knocker code in MAME for Reactor... ?

[SirPoonga]

No, nothing else uses the knocker to my knowledge.  I think the partial code in reactor is just because it is in the same driver with qbert.
When you say any keyboard LED, you mena and LED on one of these LED boards?  because I use the three keyboard LEDS from my ipac.

[gl.tter]

No, nothing else uses the knocker to my knowledge.

[SirPoonga]

ok, what is LSE.  becuase this still sounds like I can't use it unless I get an LED board that has more than 3 lights.  I use all three led lights from the IPAC.  So I very well can't put the knocker on any of those because then it will get triggered on gmaes that trigger that.

Where do I get your stufF?

[gl.tter]

ok, what is LSE.

[SirPoonga]

So is your framework available for use?

[gl.tter]

So is your framework available for use?

The source code isn't released yet, but will be soon.

[SirPoonga]

Alright, ressurecting this thread as I willbe able to work on it in the near future.

To power the solenoid I think I am going to try this:
Radioshack part #273-1668
13.5-30VDC/1000mA AC-to-DC Adapter

That should proved the power needed, and it uses your choice of adaptoplugs.  So to interface it with the computer I will use the ledwiz, a relay circuit that adaptor can plug into (no hacking wires, nice!).

Now, using radioshack parts, I'd need one of these relays???  Assuming ledwiz outputs 5v.
275-240
275-232

[Buddabing]

FYI to control a solenoid with my board you would need a way to turn a 0-20 or 4-20 mA input current into the voltage necessary to activate your solenoid.

Something like this.

[SirPoonga]

That's cool budda.  For me I am going to use the ledwiz as it is usb.  but for others who want to do a knocker that is good info.

Randy just PMed me the led wiz does to 5v per output.  So, those relay's form radioshack should work, I hope.

[Stormy151]

Just a thought, 3 9V batteries in series would supply 27 VDC.

Not as elegant as a power supply, but cheap and plentiful...

[koolmoecraig]

John at www.johnsretroarcade.com helped me get mine working.

check my post for some discussion of this.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=26333.0

[SirPoonga]

Yep, I was involved in that thread.  As I said in many other qbert knocker threads, I don;t want to use the keyboard LEDs because I use those.  I don;t want to use parallel port because I won;t have a parallel port.  USB is the only route and I have been waiting for one of these LED boards to come out.

[Quarters]

Anyone ever use one of these with pinmame?

[Xiaou2]

 An interface with pinmame would be the bomb.   One could then
BYO-Pinball machine.   

 Use the monitor as a backbox wiith score, animations...ect.   

 I think many would love to have such a device. 

 Randys led controller sounds like a great start.   Have not read all the specs...
so not sure it has enough functionality to handle all that would take place
in a full pinball machine.

 IE: One may want 555 bulbs in some spots, and flasher lamps - instead of just leds.  And not sure how many things can be controlled at once.    IE:  a pin may control 15 coils, 150 lights,  5 flashers...ect.

 I really want to make a few mini pins.. maybe 3/4th scale.

[Jess--]

A While ago I had to get a computer to control several things Via radio using encoded signals, ended up using a program called LPT Port Control (cant remember where I downloaded it from)  but it is programmable from vb C++ or C# so should be able to control it from anything....

hope it helps (I know its not serial control though)

[SirPoonga]

yeah, you said LPT port.  LPT port you don't need anything special to control.  But I won't be having a parallel port on my computer.  So USB is the only way to go.