MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[chukdotcom]

Can I sell a "Microsoft Office Cab" on ebay?  Build a cabinet that has a PC in it, and nothing but windows and Micosoft Office installed.

[CheffoJeffo]

Well, here's a thought, Jeffo:  Ford is the trademark owner of Ford.  MAMEDev is the trademark applicant for mame.  Applicant.  Not trademark holder.  And for that trademark to stick, it has to be used in commerce. So MAME had better get commercial if they want the trademark to stick.

It is an interesting thought and a pretty darned good point (about the commerce aspect) ... now, I wonder how that would be possible, given the nature of the project ... any thoughts ?

Cheers.

[saint]

Had to respond to this part -- I hope that in fact you never have seen an advertisement for a MAME DVD on this forum as I specifically have such things blocked. Occasionally they may crop up -- I believe that you ran into the same problem with MAME ROM collections popping up in Google ads as new vendors purchased ads? Right now I have 7 or so sites blocked from my Google Ads specifically for being MAME ROM vendors. As fast as someone makes me aware of them I block them. I don't know what more than that I can do other than give up the Google ads altogether.

The policies of this web site also do not allow posting of ebay links to ROM auctions, even for the purposes of complaining about them, so as to prevent purposeful or inadvertent advertizing of such.  This is plainly spelled out in the rules of the forum linked at the top.

Additionally, any request for locating ROMs that a mod finds or is made aware of is also deleted post-haste.

I take a hard line on this for two reasons -- 1 is to honor the wishes of the MAME-devs, but more importantly because I know they are illegal (StarROMs and other legal ROMs aside).

You also will almost never (perhaps in fact never) hear me refer to a cabinet as a "MAME-Cabinet" because to me they are two entirely unique, albeit related, hobbies. I love MAME, but my side of this hobby can exist without MAME altogether. Together they make a great combo, but they are indeed separate entities.

The last thing I ever want to see is anyone associate BYOAC with condoning illegal ROM distribution, when in fact I bend over backwards to make sure that's not so.

--- saint

to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.
hat it already is.

[19rjs99]

TITLE: Emulation cabinet for Multiple Arcade Machines

Don't use MAME... spell it out.

Enough said.

[saint]

For what it's worth, my being taken aback about the ROM DVD ads aside, I concur that MAME-DEV is being prudent in doing something about the situation. I think the restriction of the use of the word MAME in describing the capabilities of a cabinet is probably stricter than necessary, but if it's my family that's at risk as a MAME developer I'd probably be taking similar steps.

--- saint

While I definitely see your point, I do think MAMEdev have overstepped their rights a bit with the two restrictions I mentioned above (not using MAME in the title and only using MAME once in the description).

IANAL, but as long as they acknowlege your trademark, it seems that a vendor of a legal product should be able to mention that their product is compatible with MAME, even in the title of their auction, and even if they say it more than once. (I've never heard of either of these restrictions in fair use before).

I know it may feel like vendors are using you and the MAMEdev team for profit purposes, but there is a large community built up around your efforts, and to squash legal products that do no harm to the MAME effort is a bit excessive.

In addition, your "ebay sweep" killing all these auctions without any prior notice seems a bit harsh, as well.

I hope that you'll reconsider and revise those two restrictions.

Kevin

Well I had nothing to do with the writing of the list of restrictions, however they do seem reasonable to me.

Mentioning MAME once, fair enough, I've seen several spammy auctions with MAME plastered all over them, it gives a false impression that the product is something we endorse when in most cases its just spam (and we all hate spam..)

I believe there was prior notice as mamedev.com has been up a while, including the trademark rules, however I will acknowledge some people may not have been aware of it.

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.  If more effort was put in to shutting down those abusing the MAME name things may not have come to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.

At the end of the day a bit of bad comes with every bit of good.  All the developers are human, and have lives to live, and we don't want to have to live in fear of legal action being taken because a community has turned MAME into seemingly nothing more (in the eyes of those higher up) than a large profit making market based around selling illegal products.  At that point the risk of working on MAME becomes too high.  Unfortunately many of the arcade cabinets being sold, or for which 'MAME' parts are being sold end up being used for commercial purposes, this is likewise a problem.

With that in mind we simply need to establish MAME for what it is, allowing the name to only be used for things which really are MAME (ie the actual emulator)

Please read Aaron's reply over at mame.net
http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=174573

Anyway, I hope you can understand our situation as developers and why we feel the need to protect the MAME name before the situation gets even more out of control that it already is.

[Chris]

For what it's worth, my being taken aback about the ROM DVD ads aside, I concur that MAME-DEV is being prudent in doing something about the situation. I think the restriction of the use of the word MAME in describing the capabilities of a cabinet is probably stricter than necessary, but if it's my family that's at risk as a MAME developer I'd probably be taking similar steps.

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

[CheffoJeffo]

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

I'm not so sure I would be so glib about the risk aspect ... we are talking about the United States of Litigation, aren't we ?

Even responding to a nuisance lawsuit would cost the families dearly in terms of $$$ and it's not like the MAMEdevs are being paid or anything. I'm sure that that we will all band together to fund the defense. 

So, a thought back to you, Chris ... what would you do differently than the MAME team supposing that, say, you had received legal advice (which they apparently have) and a minimum legal response to a lawsuit was going to cost you personally, say, $5,000 (and would likely escalate steeply from there) ?

This is not a question about the merits of such a suit, but rather a question to quantify the degree of risk aversion that we each have.

Again, not trying to be a smart@$$, but asking an honest question.

I know I wouldn't risk my family's well-being (or even a four-figure hit to my bank account) for no $$$ and the grief that people continually give the MAMEdevs.

Cheers.

[Chris]

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

I'm not so sure I would be so glib about the risk aspect ... we are talking about the United States of Litigation, aren't we ?

Nicola, the applicant of record, lives in Italy.

Even responding to a nuisance lawsuit would cost the families dearly in terms of $$$ and it's not like the MAMEdevs are being paid or anything. I'm sure that that we will all band together to fund the defense.

[Dav]

Well, here's a thought, Jeffo:  Ford is the trademark owner of Ford.  MAMEDev is the trademark applicant for mame.  Applicant.  Not trademark holder.  And for that trademark to stick, it has to be used in commerce. So MAME had better get commercial if they want the trademark to stick.

It is an interesting thought and a pretty darned good point (about the commerce aspect) ... now, I wonder how that would be possible, given the nature of the project ... any thoughts ?

Cheers.

They already have gone commercial by giving permission for use in commercial products such as hanaho.  That is all that is necessary.

[Dav]

The MAMEDev's families aren't at risk from a keyboard encoder... just their ideals.

I'm not so sure I would be so glib about the risk aspect ... we are talking about the United States of Litigation, aren't we ?

Nicola, the applicant of record, lives in Italy.

Maybe you've heard of Aaron, the current head of the project? 

Even responding to a nuisance lawsuit would cost the families dearly in terms of $$$ and it's not like the MAMEdevs are being paid or anything. I'm sure that that we will all band together to fund the defense. 

After this?  I think before this lots of people would have.  Now, maybe not so much.

hought back to you, Chris ... what would you do differently than the MAME team supposing that, say, you had received legal advice (which they apparently have) and a minimum legal response to a lawsuit was going to cost you personally, say, $5,000 (and would likely escalate steeply from there) ?

Aaron's resonse in the mame.net forum has nothing to do with legal fears and everything to do with "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore."

Going after ROM sales?  Absolutely.  Going after cab sales?  Marginal, but I understand it.  Going after keyboard encoders?  Out and out abuse.

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.  Mame keyboad encoder.  If someone put my name on a product for sale I'd be ticked too. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Aaron's resonse in the mame.net forum has nothing to do with legal fears and everything to do with "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore."

I dunno ... I thought that

The fact that there are a number of outright illegal products using "MAME" to sell themselves only means that it is imperative for us to take action.

was pretty clearly about the legal fears. But I could be wrong ...

As for being mad as hell, if you had

- a bunch of clowns putting your @$$ at risk with illegal activities
- a bunch of folks who don't pay you anything, but then use the reputation of a project that you work hard on (and they have little or nothing to do with) to make money
- a bunch of people (who also don't pay you) who complain about you the way you treat the folks above

then I suspect that you would be mad as hell as well. I sure would.

I believe that the restrictions are a bit severe, but I also believe that, as the situation becomes clearer, they will be relaxed.

I do think that your characterization of "out and out abuse" is off the mark ... if they were out for that, there are at least a hundred better ways of achieving it (say, by, killing the whole project). They are protecting themselves and, as you imply, righting some wrongs that they perceive with the use of their work.

I can't really fault them for that ... after all, it is THEIR work that gives rise to all of this, isn't it ?

Cheers.

[Chris]

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.

[CheffoJeffo]

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.  Mame keyboad encoder.  If someone put my name on a product for sale I'd be ticked too. 

MAME keyboard encoder?  Marginal, but understandable pull.  Keyboard encoder compatible with MME?  Pulling that is rubbish.

I thought that Aaron explained that adequately in his posts on mame.net ... we can disagree and say that they should look at every single auction to make individual determinations, but he explained why they aren't doing that.

Cheers.

[Chris]

The abuse is putting someone elses name on a product and selling it.

[CheffoJeffo]

I thought that Aaron explained that adequately in his posts on mame.net ... we can disagree and say that they should look at every single auction to make individual determinations, but he explained why they aren't doing that.

Cheers.

Right... which had nothing to the "legal fears for his family" you brought up.

OK ... I have no idea what that is supposed to mean ... you can't pull one issue, out of context, from a post that adresses multiple and related issues and say "Right ... that has nothing to do with X". Holy non-sequiturs, BatMan.

[EDIT: I meant Aaron's post here, not mine.]

1) They have legal fears due to illegal activities involving the name (do you disagree with this ?)
2) They don't want to spend time/open a can of worms by examining each and every auction

You may think that they *should* spend the time and look at each auction individually (perhaps someone could volunteer for the position of "inappropriate eBay auction title inspector"), but the fact that you disagree with (2) does not negate the fact that action had to be taken due to (1), as you state in your response above.

Cheers.

[Patent Doc]

Sorry I'm so late to the party.  Happens every time I get swamped with work and something big IP related hits the fan.  Anyway, I'll try to make this brief...(yeah right when have I ever done that) .  Anyway, I haven't read all the posts but here is my take.  Sir Poonga is right saying something is a "MAME cabinet" implies that the MAMEdev team made or endorses the cabinet.  Sure you can read it differently, but the fact that you can read it the way I indicated opens up the MAMEdev team for potential litigation.  The MAMEdev team must be vigilant about the enforcement of a trademark otherwise the mark is destroyed.  Additionally, there is a legal term called inducement to infringe...meaning your product has only one purpose, to aid in the commision of infringement and by providing the product to others you are making them commit an illegal act.  Don't think for a second NAMCO or NINTENDO won't pull the plug on MAME if they think their bottom line is being affected.  The MAMEdev are doing a little CYA (Cover Your @$$). 

Now is there fair use and are they being a little over zealous...yeah.... probably.  Sometimes there is only one way to describe something and not using MAME in the title can affect a description.  For example, let's say...hypothetically, that MAMEMarquees obtains a lisence to make and distribute marquees of the traditional MAME ilk.  Let's say I buy one and after several years of enjoyment give up this hobby and want to part out my cabinet.  Well, the only way to describe my marquee to inform the buyer what the marquee is regarding is to use the word MAME.  Much like I would sell an antique COKE bottle.  Here I am not using the MAME name to market a product, but describing what the product is.  Now keep in mind I have very limitted trademark work (I deal 99.99% in patents only), but I fairly certain this would not violate a mark.  Only problem is, do you really want to go to court over a $30 marquee...which keep in mind is probably the only way ebay will let your auction back on the site with mame.  Now someone mentioned why Ford doesn't do the same thing.  Again, my bet...without doing any legal research is they can't; however, if they could, they probably don't because if they did they would be paying millions in legal fees to have some attorney spend every waking moment shut auctions down.  The reason I'm hedging here is the Krako example.  Sure Krako makes aftermarket products, but be damn sure they already got a lisence to use the mark.  Heck they even will acknowledge marks at the bottom of the add (e.g., Ford is the registered mark of Ford Motor Company, etc, etc).

Lastly, as someone also mentioned earlier... tradmarks are only valid if used in commerce.  Unless someone can point to court cases that define freeware as commerce, I'm fairly certain this means a monetary transaction.  No exchange of cash for good (here MAME)..no commerce.... no trademark.  So MAMEdev be careful what you do, you might lose your mark in an effort to enforce it. Also enfocement of a mark you don't have yet is illegal and can result in the loss of the mark. You're not quite as bad off as Mr. Foley because it is clear that MAME was in use and you can rely on the TM rather than an R.  Mr. Foley had niether and was trying to enforce...he would've been toast.  However, nobody here should bite the hand that feeds them.  Don't piss off the dev team or there may be no more MAME dev going on.  They don't have to do this you know. 

Anyway, that's my take just off the top of my head.  Got to get back to work ...if this is still hot this weekend or next week, I'll post a more legally polished rant with case law for those who are interested.

Patent Doc

PS - Kev  I haven't had a chance to read that patent article you posted yet, but the sky isn't falling despite what you see here.  I'll try to e-mail you why I say this later tonight or tomorrow.

[Chris]

You may think that they *should* spend the time and look at each auction individually

YES.

[JODY]

The Mamedevs MUST enforce the trademark now that they have it or it will become public domain.

[danny_galaga]

i havent looked for a while, but arent the mamedevs selling t-shirts etc? if they are then they are using their trademark for commerce and should be able to keep it, right? if they arent making any products like that, well they better start printing!!

[Chris]

i havent looked for a while, but arent the mamedevs selling t-shirts etc? if they are then they are using their trademark for commerce and should be able to keep it, right? if they arent making any products like that, well they better start printing!!

Wrong.  Trademarks are applied for in specific categories.  Thyey applied in the software category, not in the wearable goods category.  Selling T-shirts isn't going to help.

[CheffoJeffo]

You may think that they *should* spend the time and look at each auction individually

YES.  People can be SUSPENDED from eBay for VeRO violations!

Another good point ... doesn't negate their legal fears or make them abusive, and I notice that a number of the auctions are already being relisted in compliance with the terms set by the MAMEdevs (I am even bidding on one ... but it's a low bid).

Thanks for making so many good points, BTW (I may not agree with your conclusions, but I think that some of the issues you mention are rather important) ... I hope that the things that you're pointing out will help make the process work better in the future.

Not sure I can say much more than I have already, so perhaps it is time for me to bow out ... or not ... we'll see ...

Cheers.

[Patent Doc]

Oh lest we all be kidding ourselves, finding illegal ROMs in association with MAME is easy...yes MAMEdevs even from your beloved MAME net sight.  I know everyone hear can play our own little game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but it would be the 2 degrees of Illegal Roms...yep you might not have them on your sight, but pages you are linked to have links that provide illegal ROMs.  If you are worried about anything, I would be worried about that.

Patent Doc

[KevSteele]

"Shouldn't" and "won't" are 2 totally different things. I visit plenty. Check the post count.

[Dav]

i havent looked for a while, but arent the mamedevs selling t-shirts etc? if they are then they are using their trademark for commerce and should be able to keep it, right? if they arent making any products like that, well they better start printing!!

Wrong.  Trademarks are applied for in specific categories.  Thyey applied in the software category, not in the wearable goods category.  Selling T-shirts isn't going to help.

Like I said before, several years ago Hanaho  had an agreement to resell mame. 
Anyone who has one of those CD's has purchased MAME.

[RayB]

I'd like to offer another viewpoint: Associating MAME with keyboards encoders or other such devices is BENEFICIAL to MAME. YES, beneficial.

Let's say Ultimarc makes the decision... they can either promote their keyboard encoder as being compatible with MAME or Vantage. Hmmm, let's say they choose Vantage. OH all of a sudden Vantage is getting a boost in popularity thanks to Ultimarc. Don't shoot a gift horse...

[pointdablame]

I'd like to offer another viewpoint: Associating MAME with keyboards encoders or other such devices is BENEFICIAL to MAME. YES, beneficial.

Let's say Ultimarc makes the decision... they can either promote their keyboard encoder as being compatible with MAME or Vantage. Hmmm, let's say they choose Vantage. OH all of a sudden Vantage is getting a boost in popularity thanks to Ultimarc. Don't shoot a gift horse...

maybe.  But would Ultimarc really have the product line that they have WITHOUT MAME?  I don't think so.

[KevSteele]

Don't shoot a gift horse...

Unfortunately, MAMEdev is taking a shotgun approach (i.e., all the horses die).

After seeing Aaron's posts about the situation over on MAME.net, I guess can understand - they don't have the time to individually monitor all the auctions, and if they let some through but not others they're going to be spending all their time arbitrating the mess they've made and dealing with angry vendors. Simpler to just kill all gaming-related MAME auctions.

If I was a programmer, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my days monitoring eBay auctions daily to enforce the trademark. Killing all MAME auctions is indiscrimiate but fast and efficient.

I'm not happy about the situation, but I can see their point and I'm sure the gaming ecosystem will adapt to this new boulder in the river.

Unfortunately, things like this are the price of popularity: First comes the popularity, then comes the entrepenurs, then come the lawyers...and the circle of corporate life goes on...sigh...

Kevin

[Dav]

I'd like to offer another viewpoint: Associating MAME with keyboards encoders or other such devices is BENEFICIAL to MAME. YES, beneficial.

Let's say Ultimarc makes the decision... they can either promote their keyboard encoder as being compatible with MAME or Vantage. Hmmm, let's say they choose Vantage. OH all of a sudden Vantage is getting a boost in popularity thanks to Ultimarc. Don't shoot a gift horse...

That doesn't make sense.  How does mame benefit from more users?   They don't charge anything.  Some of the devs won't even use their real names so they don't even get  any fame.   I would argue the opposite, more users cause more problems.  The fact that the previous lead developer was actively trying to push users to Raine would indicate that they may feel that way.

[Santoro]

I would like to voice my support for the argument that we should all just shut up and be really thankful that the MAMEdevs continue to do all of this free work that, in the end, brings much benefit to our community. 

Even if we disagree with thier wishes (and I do) we ought to respect them. 

It isn't analagous to Ford because Ford is for-profit.  The devs to what they do for preserving the games.  It's a buttload of work, and for us to second guess anything they do is, IMHO, rather ballsy.

[Howard_Casto]

But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

I agree that there seems to be some overreaching here as far at any use of the word MAME at all, but I would NOT put the phrases "MAME cabinet" and "Encoder for MAME" (or more specifically "compatible with MAME") in the same category.

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not. Which is why (I presume) they will allow you to say "compatible with MAME(tm)" but you are not allowed to just haphazardly include the word "MAME" in your acution title.

[MonitorGuru]

Let say a person wants to sell their Dell computer on ebay so now you cant use the word dell, I think this is crazy & someone has to much free time on there hands, I have looked at the ebay auctions nobody is selling roms so what harm is being is being done,

[MonitorGuru]

I think the dev's owe a answer

I think the devs owe nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

The BEST quote here, bar none. Well said AlanS

[Pilot143]

I normally stay quiet on things like this, but my initial thoughts on this topic has changed.

[Adeptus]

Vaguely related story (on the eBay side, not the MAME side)

"Splendour in the Grass", a major music festival here in Australia had its tickets sell out in 18 hours (normally takes a few weeks). Soon afterwards, there were hundreds of tickets being sold on eBay. The festival organisers asked eBay to remove the auctions, they refused.
Because ticket scalping isn't actually illegal here, and eBay have a clause saying the sellers are responsible for honouring ticket conditions (which say, you can not re-sell tickets at a premium).

I wonder if they could have used the "You can't use our name in the auction title" angle...? I'm sure it would be registered and/or trademarked.

[paigeoliver]

Any arguement about how wonderfully legal Mame is and how anti-piracy mame is completely goes out the window based on the fact that mame has hardcoded support for hundreds of bootleg romsets.

If Mame is anti-piracy than why do they support bootleg romsets? There is no legal way for ANYONE to possess those romsets.

You can't take the high road when you are still mucking around in the dirt.

My personal suggestion?

End the Mame project now, release the source code free of all restrictions. Let other emulators take up the code and continue the ideas. For all practical purposed Mame has been done for a few years now anyway. ideally 3D games should have a different emulator optimized for 3D games and designed for hardware accelleration.

[Dav]

Any arguement about how wonderfully legal Mame is and how anti-piracy mame is completely goes out the window based on the fact that mame has hardcoded support for hundreds of bootleg romsets.

If Mame is anti-piracy than why do they support bootleg romsets? There is no legal way for ANYONE to possess those romsets.

That's open to debate.   If fair use allows me to play mspacman on a PC it seems to me the same fair use would allow me to play mspacman  in mame on  make trax hardware or galaxian hardware just the same as on pacman hardware.   Or play mspacman on an actual make trax board, which I do btw since they are more reliable than pacman boards.

[paigeoliver]

Ah, but what about "Space Pilot" or Super Zola Pac-Gal, or anyone of the other hundreds of bootleg romsets that are more than just hacked to run on different hardware, but that also remove or change the copyright information and change the title?

[Dav]

Ah, but what about "Space Pilot" or Super Zola Pac-Gal, or anyone of the other hundreds of bootleg romsets that are more than just hacked to run on different hardware, but that also remove or change the copyright information and change the title?

Nothing illegal about that, fair use allows people to change their roms.  Any new code is copyrighted by the author, so I'd need to own a zola board as well as a mspac board to run zola.   

It may have been illegal for the zola people to sell the board since they didn't have rights to it.  But I have a dozen original mspacman boards, I certaiinly would have fair use rights to use  ms pacman code.

[DreamArcades]

I just thought everyone should know that I received an e-mail from Aaron Giles tonight. He apologized for my trouble with Ebay and has offer to work with me to make fix it.
I had about 10 auctions removed today (by the MAMEdev

[paigeoliver]

Ah, but there is the trick, there is no such thing as a legal Zola board to begin with.

Here is an example, lets say I happen to have a bootleg copy of "The Phantom Menace" on a VCD, copied with a video camera in a movie theatre in a foreign country. I can buy 100 Phantom Menace DVDs, I can even stand in front of my own TV with a camera and make a "fair use" copy that way, but nothing I am going to do is going to validate that asian bootleg VCD.

I do admit that I have very little respect for copyright law to begin with (due to misuse, abuse and such by holders), and I personally own bootleg Space Pilot, Kicker, Tutankhamen, Multi-Williams, and Kung Fu Master boards, along with a Space Invaders version that is rather questionable. What I am saying is either respect it or don't, just don't take the double standard approach of "It doesn't apply to what I do, but it does apply to what others do in relation to me."