MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[quarterback]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

And if someone was selling a "PacMan cabinet" I would expect a PacMan cabinet, not some random cab that might be able to play PacMan.

[SirPoonga]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

And if someone was selling a "PacMan cabinet" I would expect a PacMan cabinet, not some random cab that might be able to play PacMan.

Exactly, so saying you are selling a mame cabinet implies that you can only use mame on it.  When in fact you could do most anything with it, even put a real arcade game in the cabinet.
Mamedevs just don't want it to sound like it is a productjust for mame when it isn't..

[quarterback]

I don't see anything wrong with the letter.

We're on the same page here.  The only thing that seems a bit extreme to me is the "one time use" clause.  Mentioning it twice would be verboten?  Really?  Okayyyy then.....

[monkeybomb]

Then it sounds like they should be aloud to remove "MAME Cabinet"  but not  "Arcade Cabinet for MAME". 

[nobody]

Then it sounds like they should be aloud to remove "MAME Cabinet"  but not  "Arcade Cabinet for MAME". 

i think theyd prefer 'arcade cabinet for MAME and other emulators'

[Chris]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

And if someone was selling a "PacMan cabinet" I would expect a PacMan cabinet, not some random cab that might be able to play PacMan.

But what MAMEDev is saying is like Ford going after an auction that says "KRAKO Floor Mats for Ford F-150".

[Avery]

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

Right, but in this case you couldn't even say, "Floor Mats - Fit '98 Ford F-250" .

I can see their having an issue with, "MAME Cabinet" but not with, "Cabinet: great for MAME or JAMA conversion".

[AlanS17]

Plus as soon as other people start slapping the MAME name on stuff, it becomes a liability for them. You can argue that as much as you want, but it's true.

[KevSteele]

They just don't want you using their name to sell your product.

I can see their side, to a point - but it was a pretty poor way of announcing their new rules, by pulling auctions first and then emailing companies with the "terms" of being able to use the word MAME. And just having the word MAME in the title shouldn't be legal grounds to pull an auction (especially if the trademark is acknowledged).

The MAMEdevs will get to dictate the terms on eBay, but I think that "fair use" will rule in the real world(tm). In other words a title such as "Arcade Cabinet, Compatible with MAME(tm)" will be perfectly acceptable in any other situation, and well within the scope of the law.

I agree with their letter except for two notable exceptions:

1. Not being able to use the word MAME anywhere in the title.
2. Only being able to use the word MAME once in the description.

Both of these are against the spirit (and perhaps the letter) of fair use of trademarks.

I'm beginning to wonder how the "Coke vs. Pepsi challenge" ever got on the air...

Kevin

[SirPoonga]

Ok, however what is the problem with not being able to do that?  Just say "Arcade Cabinet for Emulation".  Which is a more accurate term.

[Haze]

Ok.. this is quite simple.

MAME is an emulator, nothing more, nothing less.  Its the emulator that Nicola, Aaron, and others, including myself, helped to create.

MAME is not a set of arcade buttons you want to sell
MAME is not an arcade PCB
MAME is not an arcade cabinet
MAME is not a DVD full of ROMs

MAME is a non-commercial project, worked on by the developers for free, it is not something designed to help anybody make money.

There has been a large amount of abuse of MAME, especially people selling illegal items using the MAME name (such as ROM DVDs),  The measures being taken may seem drastic but are neccessary.  Simple approaches to stop people using the name have failed, its depressing to see that people even seem to have accepted that its acceptable to pay for DVDs full of 'MAME Roms' and such, some even openly encouraging people to order such.  The MAME trademark usage terms and conditions were created to stamp out abuse of the MAME name, and as these things go we must enforce them.

If you wish to use the MAME name then contact MameDev via the www.mamedev.com site, as mention in the email.

[vibez]

Ok.. this is quite simple.

MAME is an emulator, nothing more, nothing less.  Its the emulator that Nicola, Aaron, and others, including myself, helped to create.

MAME is not a set of arcade buttons you want to sell
MAME is not an arcade PCB
MAME is not an arcade cabinet
MAME is not a DVD full of ROMs

MAME is a non-commercial project, worked on by the developers for free, it is not something designed to help anybody make money.

There has been a large amount of abuse of MAME, especially people selling illegal items using the MAME name (such as ROM DVDs),  The measures being taken may seem drastic but are neccessary.  Simple approaches to stop people using the name have failed, its depressing to see that people even seem to have accepted that its acceptable to pay for DVDs full of 'MAME Roms' and such, some even openly encouraging people to order such.  The MAME trademark usage terms and conditions were created to stamp out abuse of the MAME name, and as these things go we must enforce them.

If you wish to use the MAME name then contact MameDev via the www.mamedev.com site, as mention in the email.

makes sense to me. mame is the emulator. There are no such things as a mame cab or mame roms.

i dont get the "but you may only mention it once in your ad." part

[Dav]

They just don't want you using their name to sell your product.

I can see their side, to a point - but it was a pretty poor way of announcing their new rules, by pulling auctions first and then emailing companies with the "terms" of being able to use the word MAME. And just having the word MAME in the title shouldn't be legal grounds to pull an auction (especially if the trademark is acknowledged).

The MAMEdevs will get to dictate the terms on eBay, but I think that "fair use" will rule in the real world(tm). In other words a title such as "Arcade Cabinet, Compatible with MAME(tm)" will be perfectly acceptable in any other situation, and well within the scope of the law.

I agree with their letter except for two notable exceptions:

1. Not being able to use the word MAME anywhere in the title.
2. Only being able to use the word MAME once in the description.

Both of these are against the spirit (and perhaps the letter) of fair use of trademarks.

I'm beginning to wonder how the "Coke vs. Pepsi challenge" ever got on the air...

Kevin

Mamedev.com was announced in several places as the official site, where it says "Products or services that wish to use the name MAME or a derivative thereof must obtain explicit permission from the trademark owner (Nicola) to do so in all cases"



I will agree with you on the fair use thing.  I'm suprised that they are limiting mame compatible, but I'm sure Aaron didn't just make this up out of thin air, he must have a lawyer who told him he could.

[divemaster127]

I can agree with some of the letter, but still why not go after sites that offer free roms etc, what harm is being done to mame because some guy had the mame in the title of his auction selling a set of gas pedals, I go back to what I said earlier, if I have a Dell computer I cant use the word "Dell" I think this is wrong & the way its being done is wrong, I thought things were getting better since hopefully foley is out of the picture...selling a buttons, a encoder, a set of pedals is not abuse at all...& I think the dev gods have carried this to far...

[monkeybomb]

There has been a large amount of abuse of MAME, especially people selling illegal items using the MAME name (such as ROM DVDs),  The measures being taken may seem drastic but are neccessary.  Simple approaches to stop people using the name have failed, its depressing to see that people even seem to have accepted that its acceptable to pay for DVDs full of 'MAME Roms'

Hi Haze it's great to see you on this board and I hope you return.  Thank you so much for helping to bring such a fun part of my childhood back into my life.

Unfortunately I have no way of accessing this whithout the method you described.  Would you preffer that I and those like me leave the hobby all together.  Are you sad to see me with an arcade cabinet with illegal ROMS.

[KevSteele]

Not quite so simple, Haze.

While I definitely see your point, I do think MAMEdev have overstepped their rights a bit with the two restrictions I mentioned above (not using MAME in the title and only using MAME once in the description).

IANAL, but as long as they acknowlege your trademark, it seems that a vendor of a legal product should be able to mention that their product is compatible with MAME, even in the title of their auction, and even if they say it more than once. (I've never heard of either of these restrictions in fair use before).

I know it may feel like vendors are using you and the MAMEdev team for profit purposes, but there is a large community built up around your efforts, and to squash legal products that do no harm to the MAME effort is a bit excessive.

In addition, your "ebay sweep" killing all these auctions without any prior notice seems a bit harsh, as well.

I hope that you'll reconsider and revise those two restrictions.

Kevin

[AlanS17]

Ok.. this is quite simple.

MAME is an emulator, nothing more, nothing less.

[KevSteele]

There shouldn't be much left to discuss.

You don't visit BYOAC much, do you? 

Kevin

[monkeybomb]

There shouldn't be much left to discuss.

Acctually this POV was known when it was announced that the auctions were pulled.  It is the very point of the discussion.

[Thenasty]

How can I sell my POSTER of MAME....

Ebay Tittle: MAME POSTER for SALE.
Desc: This MAME poster is bla bla bla.
I have this MAME poster for years and I want to let it go now...
11" by 17"
Reprint Movie Poster


Would I be breaking the RULE by mentioning MAME in the Title ?
Mentioning MAME several times ?

[AlanS17]

"Shouldn't" and "won't" are 2 totally different things. I visit plenty. Check the post count.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Just say this is an Ebay auction.

Title: Arcade cabinet for Jamma or (censored)

Description:

Here is a good condition cabinet that can be used for JAMMA games or can be converted to (censored)


Buy it now and I will include a set of (censored) side art and a (censored) marquee.

MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME MAME

Fill in every censored spot with MAME

[Haze]

While I definitely see your point, I do think MAMEdev have overstepped their rights a bit with the two restrictions I mentioned above (not using MAME in the title and only using MAME once in the description).

IANAL, but as long as they acknowlege your trademark, it seems that a vendor of a legal product should be able to mention that their product is compatible with MAME, even in the title of their auction, and even if they say it more than once. (I've never heard of either of these restrictions in fair use before).

I know it may feel like vendors are using you and the MAMEdev team for profit purposes, but there is a large community built up around your efforts, and to squash legal products that do no harm to the MAME effort is a bit excessive.

In addition, your "ebay sweep" killing all these auctions without any prior notice seems a bit harsh, as well.

I hope that you'll reconsider and revise those two restrictions.

Kevin

Well I had nothing to do with the writing of the list of restrictions, however they do seem reasonable to me.

Mentioning MAME once, fair enough, I've seen several spammy auctions with MAME plastered all over them, it gives a false impression that the product is something we endorse when in most cases its just spam (and we all hate spam..)

I believe there was prior notice as mamedev.com has been up a while, including the trademark rules, however I will acknowledge some people may not have been aware of it.

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.  If more effort was put in to shutting down those abusing the MAME name things may not have come to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.

At the end of the day a bit of bad comes with every bit of good.  All the developers are human, and have lives to live, and we don't want to have to live in fear of legal action being taken because a community has turned MAME into seemingly nothing more (in the eyes of those higher up) than a large profit making market based around selling illegal products.  At that point the risk of working on MAME becomes too high.  Unfortunately many of the arcade cabinets being sold, or for which 'MAME' parts are being sold end up being used for commercial purposes, this is likewise a problem.

With that in mind we simply need to establish MAME for what it is, allowing the name to only be used for things which really are MAME (ie the actual emulator)

Please read Aaron's reply over at mame.net
http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=174573

Anyway, I hope you can understand our situation as developers and why we feel the need to protect the MAME name before the situation gets even more out of control that it already is.

[AlanS17]

There shouldn't be much left to discuss.

Acctually this POV was known when it was announced that the auctions were pulled.

[divemaster127]

Not one thing that was shut down on ebay was illegal I keep seeing the wording Illegal roms, not one person on ebay was selling illegal roms, it was buttons, a encoder etc, so what harm is being done to mame in this way...

[Chris]

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.

[ddockery]

Maye nobody complaining in this thread was selling roms, but I'm sure some of the pulled auctions were.  It seems every time I check I can find one of these auctions up.  Be it with a contoller, a cab, or on a CD by itself. 

[monkeybomb]

Why can't people just be greatful?

I am greatful.  But for me I am greatful to all of the people involved in helping me play and relive my childhood games.

Those that dumped the boards
Those that wrote the software
Those that helped me build a cabinet
Those who make the encoders
Those who sell products
And yes the ROM burner who got me the ROMS

Without all of those things the rest are useless to me.  I can see why it is important to go after the burners to protect themselves, but the encoder makers?  If their laywer said to do then fine.  But to me without the encoder the software is useless.

[KevSteele]

Haze,

I can understand your position, and the fear of legal action, but squashing legal products that can be used with MAME for fear of illegal ROM sales is punishing the wrong people.

I know the community could help more with stopping illegal ROM sales - I've filtered all ROM sales from my site's Google ads, and am pretty vigilant about making sure any new ones get squashed as well.

The new rules (and the enforcement) do have that "designed by committee" feel to them. I'm only asking that you review the two points I've made, and perhaps loosen the noose for legal product to more freely acknowledge that they can be used with MAME(tm).

Personally, I'm thinking a trademark notice and a "MAME is a registered trademark of Nicolas Salmoria. This product is not affilated with or endorsed by MAME" - type notice may be a good compromise. Perhaps even a "licensing fee" that could be used for board dumps?

Just some thoughts for discussion.

[Shape D.]

Not one thing that was shut down on ebay was illegal I keep seeing the wording Illegal roms, not one person on ebay was selling illegal roms, it was buttons, a encoder etc, so what harm is being done to mame in this way...

selling a "mame button" implies that you are selling a button that was made by the mame team or specifically for use with mame.

buttons are leaf or microswitch style buttons not mame buttons so they shouldn't be advertising them as such anyways.

encoders are keyboard encoders. They don't just work with mame, they translate buttons into keypresses you could technically use ms word with them if you wanted to.

using the mame name in the title or ecessivley in the auction implies association with the mame team. Those peopple did not assist with anything to create mame and are using their name as a way to make extra money.

[Haze]

You talk about a large community, unfortunately a significant part of the community does not seem to have our best interests at heart.  If more effort was put in to shutting down those abusing the MAME name things may not have come to this.  I only have to look at the adverts on this forum and I see 'MAME ROM DVDs' for sale.  We spent a great deal of time and effort filtering these out over at mame.net but it seems the majority don't care to do so and such businesses, and adverts do pose a threat to ourselves and the integrity of the MAME name and project.

At the end of the day a bit of bad comes with every bit of good.  All the developers are human, and have lives to live, and we don't want to have to live in fear of legal action being taken because a community has turned MAME into seemingly nothing more (in the eyes of those higher up) than a large profit making market based around selling illegal products.  At that point the risk of working on MAME becomes too high.  Unfortunately many of the arcade cabinets being sold, or for which 'MAME' parts are being sold end up being used for commercial purposes, this is likewise a problem.

With that in mind we simply need to establish MAME for what it is, allowing the name to only be used for things which really are MAME (ie the actual emulator)

So you're saying that because a keyboard encoder could be purchased and put into an illegal commercial cabinet, that makes it illegal to sell on eBay with MAME in the subject line?

I agree with much of what you guys are doing with the trademark, Haze, but I really think going after parts auctions just because they COULD be used illegally is an abuse of the VeRO program.  Going after ROM sets is one thing, but a keyboard encoder is pretty innocuous.

--Chris

As I said, I didn't write the list of conditions, and one of the reasons I didn't feel like remaining in charge of the project was the ever increasing mess of people abusing MAME and the problems which trying to control it would incur (such as this) as I just want to write code.  If you really feel strongly over it then I suggest you discuss it with Aaron, but chances are he'll take a firm stance on it and I don't really blame him.

End of the day, if you don't use the MAME name to sell keyboard encoders, then you haven't got a problem, and nor have we.  If you're concerned that not being able to use the MAME name is going to eat into profits then please consider what MAME is about.

Anyway, I'm not going to post any more on this issue, its pretty clear cut.

[SirPoonga]

End of the day, if you don't use the MAME name to sell keyboard encoders, then you haven't got a problem, and nor have we.  If you're concerned that not being able to use the MAME name is going to eat into profits then please consider what MAME is about.

And you can always ask for permission....

[CheffoJeffo]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

[Chris]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

Does a floormat guy have to ask Ford before he makes or advertises a Ford-compatible floormat?

[Dire Radiant]

I don't see a problem with it. It will certainly get rid of all those annoying ads that really have nothing to do with MAME but just shove the name in the auction title so they get returned on searches. eg "Atari Roadblasters cabinet including control panel MAME"  I would have no problem however with a note somewhere in the auction like "Would make a great conversion project for MAME"

I don't see my cabinet as a "MAME" cabinet. It's essentially a peripheral for playing arcade games no matter what the source. If I were to sell a "Flightsim Joystick" that would be one thing. If I were to sell it as an "IL2 Sturmovik joystick" then I feel that would give the impression that it was SPECIFICALLY designed to play IL2 Sturmovik. The only reason for me to put that in an auction title would be to show up on searches for the game. That, as Haze pointed out (and it's rare I agree with his views) is spam. It's no different than the people who sell cheap nasty stereos and put in the search title "Sanyo Stereo - Not Bose, Technics, Pioneer etc"

[DreamArcades]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

I asked how to properly use the MAME (tm) trademark several times, but did not get a reply.

[Dav]

End of the day, if you don't use the MAME name to sell keyboard encoders, then you haven't got a problem, and nor have we.  If you're concerned that not being able to use the MAME name is going to eat into profits then please consider what MAME is about.

That's a very good point.  If it's going to hurt someones sales to not put mame in the title then they are abusing MAME to sell the product.  If it doesn't hurt sales then who cares.

And btw you don't have to get IBM's permision to say IBM compatible because they have explicitly given permision on their website along with certain restrictions.  Probably Ford is the same way.

[CheffoJeffo]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

Does a floormat guy have to ask Ford before he makes or advertises a Ford-compatible floormat?

Actually, I believe he does ...

Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

Thanks, DA ... that indicates, at least, a problem with the process.

Cheers.

[Chris]

And you can always ask for permission....

BOOM ... I wonder how many people who had auctions yanked actually took the time to ask ... the need to ask has been known since Ultracade dropped their TM application.

Did anybody using the term MAME in any of the killed auctions ask ?

[NOTE: This is an honest question, not a smart@$$ rhetorical]

Cheers.

Does a floormat guy have to ask Ford before he makes or advertises a Ford-compatible floormat?

Actually, I believe he does ...

Cheers.

Well, here's a thought, Jeffo: