FE that passes coin count?

[rchadd]

just seen the FE for this commercial mame based cabinet

http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

The FE seems to keep count of coins inserted by the user and then passes them in to the selected game. how do they do that?

I didn't think mame supported passing a coin count into it?

Looks like the FE is a custom build. Is there other FEs that do similar?

Maybe it is a custom build of Mame also to support the coins?

Anyway this cab looks completely dodgy from a legality point of view - despite the disclaimer on the flyer!

[AlanS17]

MAME doesn't support it. At least, it didn't the last time I checked. This isn't a new idea. It's been discussed before and proven fruitless (and futile).

[Thenasty]

MAME frowns on this type of thing but Youki has one special MAME build but he mentiones it expires and the FE that he created along with it.
http://www.atomicfe.com/

[jelwell]

MAME frowns on this type of thing but Youki has one special MAME build but he mentiones it expires and the FE that he created along with it.
http://www.atomicfe.com/

Man, look at all those frames. I looked around and I don't see any source for the bundled MAME build. Can someone point me in the right place? I tried googling.

Is it in the .exe? I'm on a mac. The exe looks like a self extracting zip, but I can't unzip it.
Joseph Elwell.

[Thenasty]

you gotto read/download the PRO Version

"This version is the Prototype of the version PRO. It is the version which manages Credit insertion from the Front End.

This version is provided with a specific version of MAME.  , AtomicMAME wich is based on MAMEPLUS v0.90.

In a very near future the credit management will be doable on your own build.

Don't think to use this version in a Exploitation context, it will expire soon.   "

[jelwell]

you gotto read/download the PRO Version

Source.

I tried extracting the Pro version at home, on my windows machine. And I don't see any source for the MAME build included. This would make AtomicFE Pro illegal.

Can anyone find the source?
Joseph Elwell.

[EndTwist]

Source.

I tried extracting the Pro version at home, on my windows machine. And I don't see any source for the MAME build included. This would make AtomicFE Pro illegal.

Can anyone find the source?
Joseph Elwell.

Nope. No source.

I'm curious how he did it though.

[jelwell]

Source.

I tried extracting the Pro version at home, on my windows machine. And I don't see any source for the MAME build included. This would make AtomicFE Pro illegal.

Can anyone find the source?
Joseph Elwell.

Nope. No source.

I'm curious how he did it though.

My guess is command line option "-coin X". And then after hitting some load point just trigger X coin entries.

I can't imagine MAME keeps track of coins - it's probably done by the game itself. Which means in order to pass back the number of coins left you'd have to estimate by taking X and subtracting the number of times any of the player start buttons were pressed.
Joseph Elwell.

[youki]

Due to my little big disappointment about the MAME Community.  The Trademark story, some post i read from Haze , and the general Hypocrisy around MAME (in term of legality, Rom usage , and stuff like "MAME is not an emulator it is just a documentation of hardware"... etc..)

I decided to make my Pro version available freely and not limited very soon.  I will provide a Kit to modifify your own version of mame Too.    (But it will work only on Windows).

I'm working on another thing now, but as soons i completed my current development, i will work on the credit management again.

I will post here, when it will be online. May be end of next month.
I'm very busy now.

[Lilwolf]

You should really consider not doing it.

remember.. you think you have spent a lot of time on your frontend... 

Its NOTHING compared to the mame team.  The project is theirs... And you really should stop trying to make money on their project.  (at least in ways they don't agree on).

And what you did (however) is very easy to do for 90% of the games.  There have been mentions from the FE authors here without having to modify mame... but we don't talk about it on purpose.

We LOVE arcade companies.  We LOVE mame.  We LOVE our arcade projects in our basements.... We try not to hurt any of them... especially to make a few bucks....  And ESPECIALLY when money isn't involved (because then its just in spite (spight?  speight?  none look right)

Other then the coolness feature at home... there isn't  a legal reason to use it.... And at home, you can just throw an extra coin in... or open the coin box... or whatever.... How often is it a problem of 'loosing' a credit when you can open up the cabinet and get it back...  Or better yet... hack your coin mechs to accepts ALL coins and then you can use pennies or tokens or whatever.

Please STOP trying to hurt the MAME team and the arcade companies.

[screaming]

You should really consider not doing it.

  I second this.

-sab

[youki]

you really should stop trying to make money on their project

I will provide my solution for Free. I won't ask

[EndTwist]

MAME itself is ILLEGAL!!!

Wrong. It's not. Learn your facts before speaking.

Oh, and they weren't telling you not to release the code changes. They're telling you that you shouldn't be selling a "Pro" version of your frontend packaged with a customized copy of MAME. That is illegal, not to mention that there are better frontends out there for free and there is no reason for anyone to buy yours.

Get your facts straight, then speak.

[youki]

I won't sell the "Pro" version.  It will be totally free.

You think emulation of system you don't own rights is legal? 
You think reverse engenering is legal?
you think ROM Decryption is legal?
You think provide these information to everybody  is legal?

Ok...so MAME is legal... sorry.

It is not  because it seems to have a kind of "tolerance" that it is legal.

[jelwell]

Youki, I support this effort - as long as there is source. I'm a bit disappointed that there's no source yet.

And what you did (however) is very easy to do for 90% of the games.

[tetsujin]

You think emulation of system you don't own rights is legal? 
You think reverse engenering is legal?
you think ROM Decryption is legal?
You think provide these information to everybody is legal?

Well, yes, actually...  There's nothing illegal about emulating a computer.  There's nothing illegal about reverse engineering to find out how something works.  The DMCA makes decryption (in this sort of context) illegal - so in that case I support law-breaking, I guess.

The piracy of ROM software is another matter.  Individuals make their own choices about that.

If you think this is all so wrong, why participate in it?  Or do you feel the software piracy is OK so long as people don't lie to try to legitimize it?

[AlanS17]

Whether you make this build freely available to people or not, I think we have a bigger problem on our hands by releasing a front-end that can handle credits.

You're giving people the ability to use MAME-based arcade machines to actually make money. I guess this is technically possible already, but very impractical.

When game copyright holders crack down on MAME and the MAME community I'll know exactly who to blame.

Yes, I'm taking this issue very seriously...

[rchadd]

so why dont the copyright holders go after the bootleg multigame boards?

[Crazy Cooter]

so why dont the copyright holders go after the bootleg multigame boards?

Why do you think none are made in the US?

I'm with Alan on this one.
youki, while I'd love to have that for myself, I don't think that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.  I think it would see far more use commercially than home use.  I realize there are a few MAME cabinets being used "on location" right now, but this would only compound the problem.  In the US, emulators have already fought the court battles and it was determined that they are legal.  Using them commercially is not.  I think people would just get themselves in trouble if you were to do it.

[APFelon]

I won't sell the "Pro" version.  It will be totally free.

...and you only had to write that THREE times. Maybe a few more and people will actually bother reading it.   

I support your efforts. I'd like to have this FE in my home cabinet in order to regulate the amout of gaming my son does, PLUS it'll give me a reason to put mechs in the coin door.

Worried about commercial use? Put a big fat "NOT FOR COMMERCIAL USE"  on the FE screen. Customize it with your website address, email address and nym. Force the FE to go black after five minutes of non-use to make people think that the MAME cab on location is broken (and have the screen come back on with an home operator set joy / button combination like L R  L R 1p 2p, but a combination MUST be set)... etc etc.

There are a million things that can be done to dissuade commercial use, some very simple.

Oh, and Youki? Thanks for your efforts.

You may not ask for money for it, but perhaps you might ask for donations.

APf

[Howard_Casto]

If you'll excuse my bluntness, if you don't like, nor respect mame and the mame team then why in the blue hell are you writing a fe? 

Answer:  You are selfish, and like what mame can do for you, but don't like the rules they ask you to abide by and therefore ignore them. 

I had a hint about your disrespect when you first announced that you'd be adding coin support to your fe (which btw any one of us could have done years ago, unlike you, we just had enough respect for mame, the arcade industry, and the game companies it could potentially hurt). Now you have confirmed that you are a selfish little romz hound that doesn't care as long as it suits your goals. 

Money has absolutely nothing to do with this....  even free, your "pro"  (what does that stand for?  professional romz theif?) build is dangerous.  No one has ignored the fact that you'll be releasing it for free, it just doesn't make any difference. 


You don't like the community?  You think it's consisted of a bunch of hipocrites?  Fine it is, if you say so.  So get lost.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!


You are hereby blacklisted from my network of resources.  I can lovingly support bad projects, but I can't support projects that directly violate the spirit of mame and the community it has built. 

[youki]

You think it's consisted of a bunch of hipocrites?

I didn't say that. But may be due to my english skill it is what you read.  What i wanted to say , it is there is hypocrisis around MAME (and emulators in general). I don't say that the mame communoty is a bunch of hipocrites.

I'm sure at least 90% of mame user , use ROMS they don't own rights. And i'm sure that 100% of mame team is aware of that.... 

I'm sure that a big part of motivation of the mame team is Users. and i'm sure with 90% of users less MAME wouldn't be where it is now. and even may be a dead project.

I'm a part of the 10% of guy who only uses ROMS i own. I have the luck to own a little more than one hundred PCB and MVS in my collection , and i use mame to play this game just because it is easier to change game! (i don't have a MVS Slot 80... ) .  When i try rom i don't own, it is when i see on ebay a PCB or MVS to sell i don't know, i try the game to see if i bid or not.
Ok, that's for mame in my case, for other emulators like C64 one, i admit i don't have license of all game i play.

But i don't blame home users which play with the rom they don't own. It is not easy to find some PCB even if you really want.  But i'm against piracy to recent commercial software, warez , mp3 illegal download., Divx.Etc..Etc..

You think i'm a selfish because i want share my features?

Features which already exists in others very well known mame build...

You know my feature works at home on my cab. I don't really need to share it ,  even my Front End , i don't win something to offer it to emulators user. It just costs me. 
But there is a huge users demand for coin management on FrontEnd. And i always buid my Front End on users request. The project has been initiated because on the forum of Mame-univers in France, they are complaining about MAMEWAH , (mainly because it was too hard to configure and lot of was not english speaker) . So i started Atomic.. and now i think 90% of the Mame-univers forum users are using my Front End.  And each time somebody ask for a feature i try to implement it. (lot of are still on my todo list).

If it is the fact i modify mame which is a problem for you. I can do the same thing without modifying Mame (some feature i added will be removed , and it will work only on 2000 and XP but with all kind of mamebuild).

Or if you prefer, i won't provide a mamebuild , i just provide the "kit" to transform your own build.

I'm open to all solutions.


Talk me about The spirit of mame and the community.   And show me where my project will violate it.
And i will try to find a solution to not violate it.

 

[)p(]

The mame team has expressed on several occasions in the past that they dont want to see this feature in a frontend. I will always respect their wishes...therefore I will not support this feature...and to be honest although I do feel your free to do whatever you like i find it hard to see why you would want to go against the wishes of the mame team.

peter

[Teknique]

Personally, I play all my illegal roms on a hacked version of the official mame build (created by a forum member), navigate through all my illegal roms on a FE (created by forum member), and have great screenshots, box art, marquee art on my FE (provided by a forum member) all to make my illegal roms look better.

[youki]

while they conjure ways to legitimize and justifying their own activites

Well said!       

[rchadd]

youki - do what you like mate

mamedevs are not gods - even though many think they are

your comment about hipocrisis is true - they are indirectly encouraging rom copyright infringment whether they think so or not. the project is just lucky that rom copyright holders have not pursued this

the sourcecode is open (by their choice) and you can do what you like with it as long as not for commercial gain. the licence says you must make your changes public.

they should spend more time persuing people like this who are clearly exploiting mame....

http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

rather than handing down repremands to developers who do not agree with their decrees

anyway if mamedevs started sulking and stopped developing it would not affect me i have everything i need in my cab now

maybe im being disrespectiful to mamedevs...who cares? some mamedevs seem like a bunch of egoist to me

personally i would like coin handing in the FE/mamebuild - I think it would be cool.

Laissez-faire!

[Popcorrin]

I think the problem here is that people are not looking at the big picture.  I'm sure we can all agree that Namco, Nintendo, Capcom, IT and all the other large manufactures are very aware of Mame and all the games it is capable of playing, but why don't you think have yet to pursue trying to shut down mame or the illegal rom resources.  It's because of the cost benefit factor. 

The way things are now the impact mame has on their profits is
minor and they more or less look the other way, but as soon as they see the possibility of losing substantial profits because of mame they will take action. 

One way to get them involved would be to start including the latest games in Mame.  The devs I think have a good job setting guidelines for including games based on how popular they still are in the arcade.
The other way would be to create a frontend that would pass credits to mame, thus making a cabinet a viable moneymaker on location, and you know if this feature is made available that this will happen.

[youki]

Yes, i see your point.

I'm not a lawer.   I think Arcade companies could only suit the guy who put illegal roms in the cab.  Not MAME . and even not the Front End.

If you use your car to kill volontary someone , you will be suited but not the car company.  (I know than in USA it is a bit special in comparaison of what we can do in France... but I don't see why the car company would be responsible).

And if MAMETEAM is so afraid about this kind of things, it is there are surely aware that what they did is illegal. If not , why don't let us code what we want.. it is not their problem as soon as it is not an "Official mame build or Front end".

The problem is more that MAME should only allow to play game of at least 10 years old and not 3.(is it?)
If they really want preserve Arcade Companies.

What MAME does is even worst... Lot of guys doesn't go anymore in Arcades , instead they stay in front of their PC to play for free at Arcade Game.  The problem is not the game they are playing, but as they don't go in the arcade, they don't see new games , they don't put money in it , and Arcade Companies don't make profit!!!  MAME (and Video game console) are killing Arcade rooms!

So having MAME in Arcade rooms... won't save Arcade , but may be few more people could come.

[screaming]

The other way would be to create a frontend that would pass credits to mame, thus making a cabinet a viable moneymaker on location, and you know if this feature is made available that this will happen.

  I agree, and I think that no matter what kind of deterrants you put in your front end, someone, somewhere is going to try and use it.  I go into a used CD store and buy a used CD that has a giant "Not for resale - for promotional use only" tag on it. But does that keep me from buying it?

  I have over 15000 ROMs for games that I have never, and will never own. Does that keep me from playing them?

  Okay, enough about me.  What about the over-abundant software piracy?  Even though it costs the world billions of dollars and have booted people out of respectable jobs, people still do it and have been doing it since almost 1000 years before France even existed.

  Okay, take this scenario:  You walked into a pizza shop, downtown (a seedy part, we'll say) and while waiting for a pizza you saw an arcade there that advertised you could play any game you wanted.  "Great!" you say, as you wander over to check it out. You see that great game of Kangaroo that you remember playing as a kid and immediatly pop in the quarter. You click on Kangaroo. A message pops up "Not for commercial use! This is against the law!". A timer ticks down.. 3...2...1... But then you see the happy CGA-graphics kangaroo jumping up and down with his vboxing gloves. "Woohoo!", you say, "Monkeys HERE I COME!".

  Now where was that message again, and what did it say?

  Why do people do it?  People are selfish and lazy. "It doesn't hurt me." "Everybody does it." Could I (or anyone else) develop their own emulator? Probably, if they wanted it bad enough.  Could people, even unscrupulous quick-heres-a-dollar people make their own front end to do what they want?  Probably most of them... but they don't. Why? They're lazy and selfish.  They're waiting for you to do it.

  If you don't put that feature in your FE, will someone else do it? Probably eventually.  But do you really want to be the next coffee stain that's turning MAME's unwashed business suit brown?

-sab

[AlanS17]

When someone out there drops this FE into a cab with illegal ROMs and puts it on location to charge money for it, the emulation community as we know it will go down the drain. Maybe it seems overdramatic, but is it hard to envision a snowball effect?

They won't just go after the person that built the cabinet. They'll take the opportunity to put emulation, in general, in a negative light. They'll go after the person that wrote the FE, the MAME devs, the ROM burners...

I hope your ROM set is up to date, because you'll be able to forget about any new ones.

[rchadd]

What MAME does is even worst... Lot of guys doesn't go anymore in Arcades , instead they stay in front of their PC to play for free at Arcade Game.

[Lilwolf]

MAME didn't kill the arcades at all.   

Amazing Consoles did.  Really.

The arcades have gone down before mame was really in existance... And they have actually been reviving since MAME came out (and could be attributed to MAME to bring back interest).

right before mame / emulation was out.  Classic games rooms in arcades didn't exist.  They where sitting in the back somewhere only if they didn't have anything else to put in it.  But recently many / most arcades have a classic wall or classic corner or classic area.

[KenToad]

MAME didn't kill the arcades at all.   

Amazing Consoles did.  Really.

The arcades have gone down before mame was really in existance... And they have actually been reviving since MAME came out (and could be attributed to MAME to bring back interest).

right before mame / emulation was out.  Classic games rooms in arcades didn't exist.  They where sitting in the back somewhere only if they didn't have anything else to put in it.  But recently many / most arcades have a classic wall or classic corner or classic area.

I agree with you, Lilwolf.  I never saw a classic game or expected to see a classic game in an arcade until just recently.  I guess some might argue that games are too young to be considered classic, or maybe that the resurrection of the 80's arcade is due to the 80's generation growing up.  I'm in the crowd that believes that Mame played a large role in the revitalization of classic gameplay.  I agree that consoles are amazing, but, consoles have a different role than arcades in that arcades were designed to suck in your money one quarter at a time, small games with fast and immediate impact, not to mention incredible difficulty.  These games were little masterpieces.  Small games are still being produced, often for shareware releases by small, independent programming groups, but the designers of today don't have the incentive of the early arcade designers: that is, quarters.  The value of gaming now seems to be measured in hours and days rather seconds or minutes.  The early videogames were released at a special time in the history of computing, when you really did need specialized (i.e. proprietary and extremely expensive)  hardware to run games like Pac-Man in the comfort of your own home.  However, players were fickle and demanded change so fast that arcade owners could hardly keep up.  Anyone who has built an arcade cabinet knows that the main limitation is space.  Consoles may have played a role in the dissolution of the arcade just by the fact that they are more house friendly.  The games play on the same basic principles now and then, i.e. action/reaction.  Mame solves the space issues in a fantastic way. 

To get back on topic, I love the idea of an FE that sends a coin count.  I would love to see how much money it would have taken me to master Ms.Pacman or any of those games.  However, I have several friends who hate inserting coins with the coin button purely on the basis of need.  They just press the coin button repeatedly until they're satisfied that they won't have to press it again.  Some games save the coins inserted even after you leave the game and some don't, not sure why.  So, Youki, more power to you.

Cheers,
KenToad

[AlanS17]

It's a nice concept, but a very bad idea.

The only reason anyone would ever need something like a credit counter would be to turn the thing into a money-maker.

Honestly... why else would you need one? What's the difference between adding credits AFTER you enter a game rather than BEFORE you enter a game? How does it hurt or help the playing experience? It doesn't.

The ONLY thing it does is create a way for people to actually make money off of MAME cabinets. It doesn't matter at all whether or not the creater charges money for it. It's about what people will do with it once they have it.

No offense to any operators if there are any here, but... most of the operators I've met have little care or respect for the games. They're in it solely for the money. You think they wouldn't jump on the idea?

There would no longer be technical limitations to making a profitable MAME machine. The only limitations left would be legal limitations. Do you think that's enough to stop people? I don't. I think that's already been proven here.

How does this not make sense to some of ya'll???

[KenToad]

AlanS17,

I'm not really sure why you think that having FE's that don't pass a coin count will stop anyone from trying to make a profit from Mame?  I mean, didn't those old machines just have a counter attached to the coin mechanism?  So, the counter was just for verification or accounting purposes, right?  You don't need software to keep track of the money on your machine if you have a coin mechanism and you probably don't really care which games get the most quarters, since the costs for having one illegal game or all illegal games is the same. 

KenToad

[AlanS17]

He's not looking for a way to simply count credits used. That would be negligible. He's looking to insert credits via the FE. This would allow you to insert 5 credits, play a game, exit, have 4 credits left, play another game... In other words, a completely shared credit system (like an Ultracade).

[KenToad]

Ah, thank you Alan.  I just reread the entire thread and see that I had originally misread the original post.  However, my opinion is the same.  Youki's FE doesn't change the essential nature of things or, IMO, make it any easier for anyone to make money on these games. 

[IG-88]

It's a nice concept, but a very bad idea.

The only reason anyone would ever need something like a credit counter would be to turn the thing into a money-maker.

Honestly... why else would you need one? What's the difference between adding credits AFTER you enter a game rather than BEFORE you enter a game? How does it hurt or help the playing experience? It doesn't.

The ONLY thing it does is create a way for people to actually make money off of MAME cabinets. It doesn't matter at all whether or not the creater charges money for it. It's about what people will do with it once they have it.

No offense to any operators if there are any here, but... most of the operators I've met have little care or respect for the games. They're in it solely for the money. You think they wouldn't jump on the idea?

There would no longer be technical limitations to making a profitable MAME machine. The only limitations left would be legal limitations. Do you think that's enough to stop people? I don't. I think that's already been proven here.

How does this not make sense to some of ya'll???

I guess I'll have to disagree with you on this one AlanS17. I have a fairly good reason

[rchadd]

And guess what, these machines are already out there. There is a place about 15 miles south of me that has one. I haven't found out who actually owns the thing so I haven't asked how they get around the "leagal" issues or if they make any money on it. And frankly, I don't see anyone playing it either. It has about 200+ games on it (i didn't count them just a guess) and an unfamiliar FE.

its probably a 200 in 1 or 300 in 1 jamma board.

arcadeshop.com have a 9 in 1 jamma board which you can download roms on to it using serial/usb to change which games it is running - not sure if it is based on mame though

http://arcadeshop.com/multi-pcb/multi-pcb.htm

[AlanS17]

I'm sure he's not writing this fe to make money. That's never been the issue.

[Howard_Casto]

Here is the issue, which you poor newbies aren't getting at all. 

This isn't a "legal" issue or a moral one, it's a "we don't want mame to die" issue.

Here's the thing..... 

Namco, Capcom, Midway (even though they no longer release arcade games, they make a buttload repackaging their old ones) snk and several other companies still make arcade games.   They tolerate mame now, but if we piss them off, they have the money and resources to shut it down permenantly.  Ever wonder what happened to mame.dk?  Pressure from activision, midway and nintendo forced the owners to shut it down.  No lawsuits, no legal battles, nothing.  Fact of the matter is, they weren't going to jail for hosting warez for you guys. 

Do you honestly think that if a big game company comes knocking and mame's door that the mame team won't shut everything down right then and there?  They aren't getting sued over a hobby project, just a strong threat is enough. 

The point?   Universal coin managment turns a normal fe into a pirated ultracade system.  This will piss the big companies off if they see it!!!!  They will shut mame down!!!  Is that blunt enough to get through you guys' thick skulls? 

It's not that big a loss if it's taken out, but if it's included not only does it piss off the mame devs (and they are the reason you can play the frikkin games, so suck it up and show them some respect.) but it could piss off the game companies. 

The issue isn't a legal one or even a moral one (although I can argue against the feature on both fronts)  it's a protecting mame issue.  The feature hurts mame, if you truely have any respect for this hobby and the mame project you need to take it out. 

As alan has pointed out, there aren't any legitimate reasons to have such a feature.   And "it's cool" is not a valid reason.

[rchadd]

howard please tell me exactly what mamedevs are doing to stop people like this who are already clearly using mame to make money?

http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

until you do something about them - why should anybody else care less what you start screaming and shouting about here

[)p(]

I still stand by that its a moral issue...if it will destroy mame or not is besides the point...cab fe's here are primarly mame frontends even if they do support whatever...and I really cant see any valid reason why anyone would go against the expressed wishes of the mame team! Still everyone else is free to feel different and make their own moral judgement and do whatever their moral view will allow them to. But I do feel disappointed that so many people here seem to have no problems with it!

peter

[rchadd]

my point is there is already people making money from mame - this is nothing new - but there seems to be nothing happening from mamedev point of view to stop it (that i am aware of).

if mamedevs aren't policing the licence agreement it is worthless and they can't complain when people use it to make a few quid. i assume the people already making money out of mame dont care about whether mame lives or dies - they have the exe and roms already... and they probably have different morals...

the only person trying to stop commercial use of mame is ultracade but thats because they want the little to be made on retro gaming instead.

[)p(]

my point is there is already people making money from mame - this is nothing new - but there seems to be nothing happening from mamedev point of view to stop it (that i am aware of).

So? If someone else brakes the law and gets away with it that gives me no reason to do the same. I follow the law, in this case the wishes of the mame team,  because I find that its my moral duty not because of possible sanctions.

peter

[AlanS17]

Why tempt fate. How dumb do you have to be? I swear, if you destroy my favorite hobby through your own needless ignorance despite everyone else's efforts to inform you...

[youki]

If someone else brakes the law and gets away with it that gives me no reason to do the same

I agree.  But MAME is out law.  Even if some people claims MAME is legal.  90% of mame user are Out law.

So stop with this kind of args.

The only args i can take in account is this kind  :

I really cant see any valid reason why anyone would go against the expressed wishes of the mame team!

But in that case , i would be very easy to avoid to have unwilling features.  Don't provide source.


It does not apply to coin management because in case of my coin features, i don't really need to modify the source.

In addition, comceptually i don't add this feature to mame, i add this feature to the front end.   And MAMETEAM can not say me what i can do or not on my FrontEnd. My FrontEnd is not dedicated to MAME , it is a multi emulator frontend.  And coin feature will work on other emulator too (even console ones by limiting time play in function of credits entered).

it's a "we don't want mame to die" issue.

I don't wish that too.  Even if MAME already emulate all i could dream.  But as all , MAME will die one day...  unfortunaly.  But it is surely not my Front End which will kill it.  I think Users will kill it by using illegal roms.  More and more company are selling "retro" games.  And i'm sure that they will sell lot of more games if mame didn't exists.  When they will realize that... MAME will die.. 

Recently i bought Capcom Generation cds for play station  , Namco Museum , Konami Arcade Advanced for gba  and Atari 20h anniversary collection for PS2.  Honnestly , when you have MAME you don't really need to buy these games... 

MAME is stealing market part of Retro gaming. And i don't think Game company will tolerate that for a long time...

[Crazy Cooter]

youki: MAME is legal in the US.  That's not a claim, it's a fact.  Just like mp3 players are legal.  90% of mp3 players have illegal music on them.

People use MAME at home.  You'll make it so people will use MAME in stores.  People use mp3 players at home.  Imagine if they started selling that music.

Get it?

[)p(]

I really cant see any valid reason why anyone would go against the expressed wishes of the mame team!

But in that case , i would be very easy to avoid to have unwilling features.  Don't provide source.

Again...that the mame team dont actively protect their work is no reason to go against their expressed wishes.

But you have made it clear you have no problem with that in thhis case. And I have stated already that you are of course free to do whatever you want. Lets leave it at that..and lets agree to disagree 

peter

[youki]

youki: MAME is legal in the US.  That's not a claim, it's a fact.  Just like mp3 players are legal.  90% of mp3 players have illegal music on them.

May be "Emulator" are legal as soon as there is no commercial use. I'm not a lawyer and i don't really know US laws. But as i said in another post.  I don't think that Rom Decryptions is legal.  And reverse engineering of certain PCB is legal. The concept of the Emulation is legal, but surely not some part of Mame.  Like if you buy a car and you put stolen wheels on it!  Is your car is legal or not ?....
 But anyway the problem is not here.  If i take you sample of MP3 Player. i don't see any probleme to add my coin feature.

My Front End can be considered as a "Emulator" player.  If users use Emulator legally or not , is not my problem. Like MP3 Players.

Even for MAME , it can be considered as a ROMs Player.  If illegal roms are played it is not there problems.

You can find thousand of jukebox with illegal Mp3 every where.  It is not that which will kill MP3 Player. Owner of these jukebox can have problem. But not the MP3 player used.

So , if MAME is really Legal , they will be absolutly no problem for MAME.   And my coin feature will not damage MAME at all.

The only risk , it is may be like MP3 , Authorities try to minimize illegal use , try to stop huge download, track sellers..etc..etc..  They will do may be the same things with roms...  And?.. is it so bad?

May be Arcade company will be able to make again money with their  old games. And they will have more budget to produce new ones.   Retro gaming industry will be more profitable and will have have more good products for nostalgique we are.

That's better to have a real legal environment around that instead of the anarchy there is now...

[Quarters]

Here is the issue, which you poor newbies aren't getting at all. 

This isn't a "legal" issue or a moral one, it's a "we don't want mame to die" issue.

I don't think this is any more likely to kill mame than getting rid of those annoying "type OK" screens.
 

As alan has pointed out, there aren't any legitimate reasons to have such a feature.   And "it's cool" is not a valid reason.

I and others would use this for perfectly legitimate reasons. For instance I could tell one of the kids "I've given you ten credits. When those are done It's your sisters turn."

"Because It's cool" Is a great reason. It pretty much sums up why most of us built an arcade machine.

__
Poor thick headed newbie.

[TheGatesofBill]

Personally I'd say go ahead and release it. I know I'd find this very useful for home use.

[Crazy Cooter]

youki,

The problem would be that it is YOUR software that enables it.  It would be like YOUR illegal jukebox.  Remember when Napster got sued?  Their software encouraged the abuse of the mp3 format.  Your FE would encourage the abuse of the ROM format is a similar way.  I really think you'd get in more trouble than you think.

1: The game companies could sue each person that abuses your FE, but that would take too much effort.
2: The game companies could sue MAME, but that is already declared legal.
3: The game companies could sue you.

There are International Treaties regarding copyright infringement.  YOU might be held responsible for the people that abuse the FE.  I just don't see why you would take the risk.

[youki]

I don't think you can compare my FE to Napster.

I don't really know Napster (only the name) , but i thought it was a kind of website which provided some MP3, or find way to find it ? Is it?

MAME encourage abuse of the ROM format , not the FE.  And it is so easy to proove.  Try to run a rom just with the FE.

My FE don't break any copyright ,  but MAME yes.

They declared MAME legal (i would be curious to see an official document about that...) surely because they didn't look inside or the guy who did that didn't really understand the source.

I'm sure if a company which made Game decrypted by MAME sue MAME , it will be not declared legal.


if they sue me it will be surely not for copyright Reason.

You're right on one point, my FE could encourage to use emulators in arcade cabinet , and use them commercially. I can limit that by including little limitation in my code which will be not a problem for personnal use at home but could cause probleme for a real commercial use.

[KenToad]

My Front End can be considered as a "Emulator" player.  If users use Emulator legally or not , is not my problem. Like MP3 Players.

Great analogy, Youki, it seems like many of the people speculating on this thread about the death of Mame and what might eventually kill it are not really basing their arguments on logic, but rather on a fear of the widespread commercial use of Mame (and thus anything that makes that easier).  Your FE, coin passer or no, is certainly more legal than Mame (meaning that I believe it would stand up to legal threats more readily--and, yes, Mame is legal, but is not at all safe from legal threats).  Napster died because it hit the big time.  The same thing happened to Bleem!, MameDK, Suprnova, etc.  I remember several people on this board stating that they wished the Golden Tee drivers had never been added to Mame because it made the use of the emulator even more widespread.  It's very possible that, as Mame gets more complete and newer games get added, it may get more attention in the media.  IMO, one high profile magazine article would probably get the attention of the watchdogs in the gaming industry more than anything else.  I remember hearing that National Public Radio did a story having people on the street downloading music for free from Audiogalaxy just before it was shut down.

Now that I've said all that, I'm very curious about the AtomicFE and coin passing.  I hadn't even thought about it before reading this thread.  I particularly like the idea of giving kids a certain number of credits.  I'm looking forward to the finished product.

[Veinman]

I would also add that, in my opinion, anyone that really wanted to use Mame for commercial benefit would probably write HIS OWN front end so that it could be as secure and as robust as possible.

Coin counting / passing code takes no time at all to write. Some people are acting like Youki has decoded the enigma machine or something. He hasn't.

[youki]

Some people are acting like Youki has decoded the enigma machine or something. He hasn't.

You are totally right.   

[Crazy Cooter]

I would also add that, in my opinion, anyone that really wanted to use Mame for commercial benefit would probably write HIS OWN front end so that it could be as secure and as robust as possible.

Some have but most aren't willing to spend the time or don't know it's possible.  If it was easy, then a LOT more would do it.  That's the concern.

You know the washing machines at a laundromat?  The kind with the slide in mechanism for paying?  You can defeat that and wash your clothes for free.  It's kind of a PITA (like writing your own frontend/MAME compile), so not that many people do it.  Now what if it was possible to print a piece of paper that you keep in your pocket and it not only let you wash for free, it started dispensing the money from the machine.  Do you think that more people would do it then?  Of course.  They'd abuse the hell out of it.

youki,  you should take a serious look at what happened with napster.  They had a hard time explaining why their software was useful other than illegal reasons.  MAME (and other emulators) have a legally recognized legitimate use (diagnostics etc.).  What would be a legitimate use for a FE that enables easy navigation through thousands of games while allowing MONEY to be collected and PASSED between each?  MAME is legal under the assumption a person uses it "correctly".  What would be the "correct" use for a FE that enables money to be handled like this?  I can't think of one.

I think you'd be walking down the same path as napster.  I don't know what effect it would have on MAME itself.  the application itself is legal.  Would it lead to a crackdown on people using it?  Probably.  Would they come after sites like this one?  Possibly.  It depends on how big of a "problem" your software created.  Would they come after you?  Absolutely.  You started it.

There are numerous cases where people do something stupid and somebody else takes the heat.

Is it worth the risk?  Do you trust the entire world to keep you out of trouble?  Or do you think they will point the finger at you?  Like I said before, I'd like to have that feature too, but I really really don't think it's worth the risk to you or the whole community.

[AlanS17]

Crazy Cooter is totally right, and those that think otherwise need to take a history lesson.

Just as VCR's and MP3 players are legal, so is MAME. There is nothing illegal about MAME by itself. MAME is legal. Why do people have such a hard time with that concept? (Bypassing decryption is a totally different matter, but that's for a different conversation.)

There's no basis for determining the legality of owning ROMs other than keeping them as a backup for an actual game, except on a different medium (which has also been deemed as legal). However, ROMs by themselves are theoretically legal as well.

MP3 players are legal. MP3's, as a format, are legal. Possesion of non-backup ROMs is illegal, but this isn't a conversation about possesion.

However, mass distribution of ROMs could be deemed illegal in court. Any method that simplifies the mass distribution of ROMs can also be deemed as illegal. Such an FE that passes coin count could easily encourage or simplify mass distribution of ROMs. Why is that so hard to understand...

There's not much precendent for the legality or illegality of MAME. It's better to leave it that way, though. Why draw attention? Do you want to find out the hard way that what you're doing is illegal? Or even worse, do you want to find out the hard way that your actions are impacting the rest of us? Ignorance is not a valid excuse in court...

*SMACK*...

*SMACK*SMACK*SMACK*

[KenToad]

I'm sure if a company which made Game decrypted by MAME sue MAME , it will be not declared legal.

if they sue me it will be surely not for copyright Reason.

You're right on one point, my FE could encourage to use emulators in arcade cabinet , and use them commercially. I can limit that by including little limitation in my code which will be not a problem for personnal use at home but could cause probleme for a real commercial use.

Could you elaborate on that limitation, Youki?  I think it would settle these guys down a bit.  And, remember, often projects are shut down simply because there is enough money behind the lawsuit that the developers shut the project down because they don't have the money or the time for all that legal fuss.  As far as legality, its rather moot since I'm sure the developers of this open source project don't the time or resources to fight the issue through to the end.  Anyway, I'm just trying to point out that legality is not really the issue in this kind of case.  The thing is legal as long as it is not seriously challenged by (most likely) a coalition of those who feel victimized. 

AlanS17 and Crazy Cooter:  I'm sure everyone on this thread feels like you do and hope to never see the end of Mame development or the movement to the underground of our favorite hobby.

KenToad

[Crazy Cooter]

I'd be interested in what kind of limitation is put into the FE.  I think it would have to cripple the credit passing, making it pointless to even have it.

If the MAME dev's were sued, they would have the advantage of the precedent Bleem! set.  They also have an advantage vecause any lawsuit would have to target people from many countries.  A difficult case.

If youki was sued, he has the disadvantage of the precedent napster set.  He also is a single person in a single country.  A much easier target.

Currently, the game companies don't see MAME as a big enough "problem" that it warrants the trouble of rehashing emulators in court.  A FE that passes credits and the ease of abuse that it would lead to might change that.  I think they would start with the FE author (easy target) and see how far it would go.

I think we all agree on the following:
1- It will dramatically increase the abuse of MAME.
2- It pushes the "legal line".
3- youki may get into legal trouble.
4- The MAME dev's may get into legal trouble.
5- The end user (us) may get into legal trouble.
6- It would be neat.

Is #6 worth #1, #2, #3, #4 & #5?  C'mon guys, be honest and ask yourself if it's worth it.  I think it makes it too easy to make plug-n-play "criminal cabinets".  Is that the kind of attention we want this hobby to have?

[AlanS17]

EXACTLY! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[youki]

The limitation i was thinking about is :

- let the possibility to the user to add credit by pressing Player 1 Start + Player 1 button 1 .(standard behaviour of mame).

- Don't correct the bug, i have for now, each time you press Player 1 Start , credit count are decreased event if the credit is not used.

I think these 2 limitation should avoid all commercial use , and will be not too bad for Home use.  I use my Front End at home like that, it is not a problem.  And for whom wanting limiting credit for their kids.. don't say them they can add credit by pressing 2 buttons.

What do you thing about that?

[Lilwolf]

start 1 + player button 1 is not a standard for mame... its a standard for IPacs.

but if you can make it so that ALWAYS gives a free coin I think your right.

I don't see anyone building a hacked cap to be used commercially when there is an easter egg that easy to find.

[youki]

start 1 + player button 1 is not a standard for mame... its a standard for IPacs.

I didn't know that!  Thanks!! 

but if you can make it so that ALWAYS gives a free coin I think your right.

No problem to do that!   

I think it could be a good compromise , to not hurt MAMETEAM to much , and provide this features wanted by lot of users.

[Crazy Cooter]

The limitation i was thinking about is :

- let the possibility to the user to add credit by pressing Player 1 Start + Player 1 button 1 .

I could just remap the game configs to recognize button 6 as button 1.  Then I omit button 1 from the cp... no more free credits.

[youki]

So, i will modify to be able to add a credit each time you press a START Button AND one of the Player Button simultanely.

[AlanS17]

Would that add a credit to the front-end too?

[youki]

Not, if i just modify mame , but if i code the same behaviour in the Front End,  yes.

[Crazy Cooter]

What if someone hacked a keyboard?

[Veinman]

What if someone hacked a keyboard?  Would they be able to bypass it then?

(or a joypad/stick for that matter)

If someone can do that, then that someone probably has enough sense to make his own FE. Hell, I could walk down the street to the college and probably pay a kid $50 to make one.

[Rod1968]

I have been watching this thread for some time now and figured I would throw in my 2cents. To be honest I would love to have this feature added but I can live with or without it. And also let

[Crazy Cooter]

If someone can do that, then that someone probably has enough sense to make his own FE. Hell, I could walk down the street to the college and probably pay a kid $50 to make one.

I can hack keyboards and joys but I don't know diddly about programming my own FE.  Hardware vs. software.

...there are plenty of machines with this feature on location here in the states IE: the multi Williams games, ultricade, and these two machines that actually use mame and a regular pc.
http://www.covielsa.com/Manuales/manual-tec-XINFO.PDF
http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

And there has been absolutely no negative recourse towards the mame team because of these machines.

Multi-williams plays the games they own the rights to.
Ultracade pays the copyright holders for a license to use those games (now).
The other two are not legal.

You are corrected.  The copyright warning isn't meant for a commercial setting because MAME isn't meant for a commercial setting.

[Rod1968]

Multi-Williams plays the games they own the rights to.

wrong there are several Multi-Williams

[Crazy Cooter]

lol.

Multi-williams: Legal for them, illegal for the rest.  we agree.
Ultracade: Yes, I have.
The other two:  What do you think has led to the constant harrassment by Ultracade?  That's far from "no negative feedback".  These types of cabinets are what pissed Foley off in the first place.  Here's an auction he had pulled this week: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37344.0.html
This didn't happen in this magnitude until recently.

You can't tell me you honestly believe that a 5000 in 1 machine isn't "more appealing" for a shady op than a single title.   They'd be doing it to make money.  As much as possible.  Not to please purists.

Is this/that against the MAME license?  Ask them.  It's their license.  Why can they do this/that?  Ask them.  Maybe they spoke with IT, who knows.  Ask them why it's now supported.  Ask them who wrote the original driver.  They know why things are the way they are, we don't.

LOOK:
1- It will dramatically increase the abuse of MAME.
2- It pushes the "legal line".
3- youki may get into legal trouble.
4- The MAME dev's may get into legal trouble.
5- The end user (us) may get into legal trouble.
6- It would be neat.

Is #6 worth #1, #2, #3, #4 & #5?
I think it would be cool... BUT... unless there is an absolutely foolproof way of locking the coin passing down, it will do nothing but throw gas on a fire.

Cripes, you guys have me partly defending Foley here.  Doesn't that tell you how detrimental this would be?  We should be protecting this hobby by filing complaints on ebay ourselves (I have in the past), instead we're arguing about the easiest way to setup a cabinet and capitalize on MAME in a commercial environment.  Everyone says how they hate Foley, yet they want to do the ONE thing that will make his mission of shutting things down easier.  Stupid.  Just stupid.

[Rod1968]

Multi-williams: Legal for them, illegal for the rest.

[rchadd]

Youki - please can you briefly explain how you have implemented to coin handling?

did you have to modify specific mame game drivers to accept coin count from the FE and automatically coin up when the rom is loaded?

How does the remaining coin count in the game get passed back to the FE?

I'm just interested how it works from a technical point of view.

do you keep a count of the number of games actually played within mame for statistics purpose?

[youki]

Youki - please can you briefly explain how you have implemented to coin handling?

I can not say may "secret"! 

But to summarise i simply simulate Coin Key stroke by software for the amount of credit i need to pass to the game.

did you have to modify specific mame game drivers to accept coin count from the FE and automatically coin up when the rom is loaded?

No driver drivers has been modified. It works with all games directly.

How does the remaining coin count in the game get passed back to the FE?

The FE tracks all coins and maintain his own counter  , don't need to pass back.

do you keep a count of the number of games actually played within mame for statistics purpose?

Not in the current version, it is something i was planing to do.  But i'm afraid if i integrate that feature in addition of my Coin feature , it will very hurt the "holy" MAME TEAM. 

My idea was to do very detailed statistics.. Credit used by game ,  Playing time by game , and some statistique which allow to know at what time games are more played...  etc..etc..

But if i do that in combination of coin feature,  it is clear it will encourage really commercial use.  So, i think i won't do that.

[whammoed]

But to summarise i simply simulate Coin Key stroke by software for the amount of credit i need to pass to the game.

The FE tracks all coins and maintain his own counter

[Thenasty]

some of this games whammoed mentioning are some midway games like MK series remembering credits left when you come back to the game after exit. Here are some list I kknow:

MK series
Revolution X
Robotron
Joust
Defender
Stargate
Satans Hollow
Shuffleshot

I know there;s more....

[youki]

I don't manage this case. I could do that. You would have just to say to AtomicFE this game has this behaviour.

But i don't plan to do that. In the context of a home use, it is not a big problem.

[AlanS17]

For the record, I still don't think there's a way to fully justify this project. I'm still against it...

[iwillfearnoevil]

For the record, I'm still for this FE.

[Crazy Cooter]

For the record, I'd consult a lawyer before I did anything.

[youki]

Is there any lawyer on this Forum who could help me?

[AlanS17]

Is there any lawyer on this Forum who could help me?

I don't know of any. With as many legal issues as we discuss here on this site, I think someone would have spoken up already about being a lawyer.

[Haze]

Ok.. I was pointed at this thread.

First of all I doubt you'll find a single Mame developer in support of somebody adding a credit management function to a frontend.

It has one use, to make it easier to put Mame in a cabinet and charge for it, something which as most of you are probably aware is the root of many major problems.

Yes there are people out there already doing this, but the last thing we need is yet another option for them.

I'm pretty sure if you were to add such a function any right to mention MAME in your product, or on your website would be denied, as you may have noticed Aaron and Nicola are taking the trademark management very seriously, and I can't see either approving of the name being used in association with something that manages credits.

[rchadd]

call it "FE that passes coin count to M@ME" then

no trademark infringement - no permission required

[Crazy Cooter]

call it "FE that passes coin count to M@ME" then

no trademark infringement - no permission required

Seriously guys, do you or do you not see what is happening here?  Do you think that Nicola woke up the other day and just decided to start pulling ebay auctions for fun?

They're getting pressured from somewhere.  There are lawyers involved due to the TM thing already and it's to the point now that ebay auctions are getting pulled.  Would adding credit management to a FE make things better or worse?  Or does none of this matter and it's time to purposely try and get everything shut down?

[Haze]

call it "FE that passes coin count to M@ME" then

no trademark infringement - no permission required

Seriously guys, do you or do you not see what is happening here?  Do you think that Nicola woke up the other day and just decided to start pulling ebay auctions for fun?

They're getting pressured from somewhere.  There are lawyers involved due to the TM thing already and it's to the point now that ebay auctions are getting pulled.  Would adding credit management to a FE make things better or worse?  Or does none of this matter and it's time to purposely try and get everything shut down?

I think some people are purposely trying to cause us problems yes.  We've stated please don't do that, it would only cause us problems.  Pushing the issue further indicates that all people want to do is cause us problems.

As I said in the previous thread seems quite a lot of people are quite happy now to take what we've done because their favourite games are emulated, and basically screw us over with no consideration for consequence or the long term future of what is a historically important project.

Its funny, these people claim to be great followers of the project, fans, until you tell them they can't do something.

People seem to see MAME as some kind of throw-away project, something that could be replaced at the click of a button, it isn't.  Sure, creating a piece of software that plays some of your favourite games might be quite easy, but creating something as in-depth as MAME isn't and I suggest that for future generations when non of these boards can be found in fully functional order and the information contain in MAME is vital to their restoration you look after it instead of endangering it because you want to make some quick cash now, or just because you want to piss off the developers because without some of them (for example Aaron) the project would just fall apart.

[)p(]

call it "FE that passes coin count to M@ME" then

no trademark infringement - no permission required

are you for real? This comment is so disrespectful...I dont agree with what youki is trieng to do but at least he makes an effort to try to understand why we are against going against the wishes of the mame team...you just...uhm I wont go there...

peter