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Schiavo rumblings
fredster:
Torture is cutting people arms and legs off. Torture is killing their family in front of them, raping their wives, etc. Torture is extreme pain that causes organs to stop functioning. Gitmo was people stacking people naked more like a college frat initiation. It was traced to the source, a really wierd chick and guy on 3rd shift. It is NOT systemic.
The Government is trying to extract information from people who have no other goal in life than to strap bombs on themselves and blow up people around them. They can't withhold thier TV priviliges to get the info. They have to do deal with extreme people with extreme measues.
What was the other answer? Just keep asking them? What is the alternative? All the stuff Clinton did after the first Terrorist Bombing? Call a cop? Have lawyers present and put together a case for each one?
Did you know I once had a job that would allow me only 4 hours of sleep per day, not necessarily all at once. Where I had to keep moving for 72 hours? Where I had to go for a week at a time without a shower and sleep on the ground? I was forced to march for 10-20 miles a day carrying huge packs. Where if I made a mistake I could go to jail for the rest of my life? That's the life of a soldier MrC.
There are rules of conduct in love and war. One was love of a parent. The other is the war on terror. It's not inconsistent. We are treating soldiers like soldiers and loved ones like loved ones.
All these people who caused this harm to these prisoners were criminals. They will pay for what they have done. It's against their general orders and against the credo they were taught. It's not systemic.
We have to do this to protect ourselves, and we hold our selves to a high standard. But we are still human, and mistakes were made, perhaps on both issues.
But we have to protect ourselves and we have to keep living and moving on.
DrewKaree:
--- Quote from: GGKoul on March 24, 2005, 10:03:49 am ---
Fredster, it's been 15 years and for the first 8 years they appear to have tried everything to get Terri better and have spent the past 7 years fighting this issue in court.
--- End quote ---
From whatever sources you can find, that is not true. For the first perhaps 2 years, care was given, some therapy was started, progress seemed to be made by Terri. It was all abruptly terminated when the lawsuit was won. Also, almost half of her trust fund was used to pay the legal fees for this case, rather than be used for her treatment and potential rehabilitation, which Schiavo denied her. Again, the denial of any theraputic measures was prohibited by Schiavo years before he recalled Terri saying she'd want to be killed if something like this happened to her.
--- Quote ---With the amount of media attention this is getting, I assume if there was any hope for her to get better. Someone out there would have stepped forward to say I can help or this is what I could do to get her better.
--- End quote ---
Again I point to Schiavo refusing therapy for her before he recalled her remarks on this.
--- Quote ---I wonder what would happen if the millionaire offered the parents 5 million to walk away?
--- End quote ---
That is an EXCELLENT point, and I wish it would happen. Right-to-die groups have been working in this case for a while now, and it would be an interesting monkey wrench to throw in the works.
I guess the question left is:
What is your definition of life support?
DrewKaree:
The religious fanatics can somehow coerce people to turn out in record numbers to give an election to someone based on a moral issue, but can't whip 'em up into a lather on this? What kind of crap power is that where they can't turn it on and off at will? Sheesh.....if this keeps up, people will be forced to come to the conclusion that others are able to think for themselves or some other such nonsense! ::)
You've made it impossible to miss that you don't claim to be a member of any religion, but your error is in telling us that Dartful is a member of a "religion that purports, "let those without sin cast the first stone.""
You're using your views of that majority to judge one man based on your notions of him. The doctrine of his religion may also not include that precept, as I don't recall Dartful EVER telling us what he believes. It again leads back to you holding someone to a standard you don't feel you have to follow.
Now, try and follow what's posted. The joke wasn't about Elected Officials You Despise, it was about you doing exactly what the Religious Right want to have happen in cases like this - make your wishes known and put them in writing beforehand. You can't even do a decent GOTCHA! anymore! And you think FREDSTER is the one slipping ;D
--- Quote from: mr.Curmudgeon on March 24, 2005, 01:52:00 pm ---
--- Quote ---I hope you're done with your living will - the Religious Right appreciate you complying with their ultimate goal! GOTCHA! ;D
--- End quote ---
Their ultimate goal was to throw red meat to the extremist ultra-conservative religious base
--- End quote ---
Interesting that you can equate this case with the war, but have no problems with claiming "victory" based on something you "feel", that words don't back up, but there can be two explanations, and you're choosing to believe yours is the correct view.
--- Quote ---That the American public saw through this phony ploy, and are trending toward defending themselves against this kind of exploitation (by either family or government)
--- End quote ---
It very well might be that "phony ploy" that people agree with, that would cause them to draft a living will. Seems as if people are choosing to make their wishes known via living wills for the opposite reasons you cite, as well. They wish to leave a record so that they won't be killed against their wishes.
And I'll go on assuming Bush is responsible for all the good happening in the Middle East.
I look forward to your "DK you're wrong and daft, let me demonstrably prove how by not clearing up the issue one bit" reply ;D
/Fez : Good day sir.
I said good day! ;D
DrewKaree:
One of the more comprehensive collections of stories on this
That's a link to a BUNCH of links of stories they've done as far back as '02, I believe. I dunno how far back they go, I haven't read all of them yet, but I've got a fair number of them under my belt.
Well, I believe this to be it for her. Not sure when exactly she'll die, but seems as if it will be it.
mr.Curmudgeon:
--- Quote from: fredster on March 24, 2005, 04:42:13 pm ---Torture is cutting people arms and legs off. Torture is killing their family in front of them, raping their wives, etc. Torture is extreme pain that causes organs to stop functioning. Gitmo was people stacking people naked more like a college frat initiation. It was traced to the source, a really wierd chick and guy on 3rd shift. It is NOT systemic.
--- End quote ---
Some would argue that the act of removing the Geneva Conventions from the equation, a choice made by the Bush administration and present in the recommendations of one, Alberto Gonzales, recently promoted to Secretary of State, is the very REASON these types of acts were allowed to have occured, nay, encouraged.
In other words, the "few bad apples" theory is bullsh!t.
--- Quote ---The Government is trying to extract information from people who have no other goal in life than to strap bombs on themselves and blow up people around them. They can't withhold thier TV priviliges to get the info. They have to do deal with extreme people with extreme measues.
--- End quote ---
There have been numerous studies that show extreme rendition DOES NOT WORK. It leads to false information and/or compromised information, and in a majority of cases is less productive than other less violent measures. Believe me, I want to torture the guilty, but not at the price of destroying the innocent in lieu of *finding* the guilty.
--- Quote ---What was the other answer? Just keep asking them? What is the alternative? All the stuff Clinton did after the first Terrorist Bombing? Call a cop? Have lawyers present and put together a case for each one?
--- End quote ---
Every major player in the first World Trade Center bombing is now locked being bars, and is no longer a threat to our country thanks to this approach. The "Mastermind" Ramzi Yousef, The "Blind" Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman and NINE others. All within three years.
On the other hand, Osama is still free and still a danger to our nation. Zarqawi is still free and a danger to our nation. Mullah Omar is still free and a danger to our nation. All within three years.
One approach took cops and lawyers and succeded. The other approach (Iraq=War on Terror) took $300+ billion, 1,500+ soldiers killed, 150,000+ overseas, hundreds of thousands of dead civilians and hasn't captured a single major player involved in the 2nd World Trade Center attacks (9/11).
HINT: Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and we are not arguing which president was resonsible. Rather, I'm talking about success in capturing those who attacked us, within a certain timeframe.
--- Quote ---But we have to protect ourselves and we have to keep living and moving on.
--- End quote ---
Initially I didn't want to address the morality/ethics of torture, but rather stick to the hypocrisy of supporting one form while opposing another. The people that support Terri's "right to life" are on the news day after day, describing the horrors she faces with starvation, while at the same time remain supportive of the people that allowed a system in which the very horrors you originally described (Torture is killing their family in front of them, raping their wives, etc.) was taking place, and some believe *still* taking place in Gitmo and elsewhere, since our government has been shipping people to countries that are well versed in torture.
I don't agree that this isn't systemic and convicting a few grunts doesn't convince otherwise. But that is besides the point.
mrC