Ultimarc: New dual analog/digital interface, A-PAC.

[Kremmit]

I hope nobody thinks I was trying to poison this thread, I'm ecstatic there's another offering on the market.  It's just that the first thing I did when I saw the product announcement was to compare the two for myself.  I figured it was sure to come up here anyway, so I posted my findings.

Andy- If you do implement a version with more axes, why stop at 8?  Folks buying the high-axis-count version are likely using another encoder (Ipac) for their buttons anyway, so why not max it out?  That would remove the need for multiple USB IDs, as nobody would be using more than one of these if they supported 24 axes!

And, Green is definately superior to Blue or Yellow- It has everything they have, all rolled into one. 

I don't want to hear about Red, though.  That would be comparing apples to oranges, and can lead nowhere.

[AndyWarne]

My only question is concerning the "no calibration will ever normally be needed".

[AndyWarne]

Kremmit, Thanks for the break down.

Andy, are you planning on releasing a PS2 adapter anytime soon?

[AndyWarne]

I hope nobody thinks I was trying to poison this thread, I'm ecstatic there's another offering on the market.

[AndyWarne]

Andy, do some more testing as to why different USB IDs are needed. It is because many, many, many computers will randomly swap the order of identical USB devices on reboot. Try plugging in 3 or 4 of the suckers and do some reboots, and turn the computer on and off and such and you will likely find that they eventually end up listed in a different order to windows.

Even if your computer doesn't do that, a lot of them do. This problem drove me insane and caused me to tear up my hacked USB gamepads and buy my first I-Pac YEARS ago.

Thanks for this. USB IDs it is then...
Just out of interest, were you using Windows 98 at the time? There is a Microsoft document that states that this issue is something addressed in Windows but does not specify a version, although it is a recent doc. But of course not all Microsoft docs are 100% accurate hehe.

[paigeoliver]

It was windows 98SE, which is still very common among cabs and cabinet builders. I can't test it on XP because I don't have any identical USB equipment anymore.

[shmokes]

XP does it and it's extraordinarily obnoxious.  I've got a computer at work with a couple of printers without USB IDs and windows periodically autodetects that they got plugged in again and re-autodetects them.  So when I open the Printers window it will list the same printer 5 or 6 times.

[paigeoliver]

XP does it and it's extraordinarily obnoxious.  I've got a computer at work with a couple of printers without USB IDs and windows periodically autodetects that they got plugged in again and re-autodetects them.  So when I open the Printers window it will list the same printer 5 or 6 times.

Man, we have a USB printer at work that gets readded so often that sometimes there will be 30 or more copies of it listed, and only one of those will work.

[Kremmit]

I hope nobody thinks I was trying to poison this thread, I'm ecstatic there's another offering on the market.  It's just that the first thing I did when I saw the product announcement was to compare the two for myself.  I figured it was sure to come up here anyway, so I posted my findings.

Andy- If you do implement a version with more axes, why stop at 8?  Folks buying the high-axis-count version are likely using another encoder (Ipac) for their buttons anyway, so why not max it out?  That would remove the need for multiple USB IDs, as nobody would be using more than one of these if they supported 24 axes!

And, Green is definately superior to Blue or Yellow- It has everything they have, all rolled into one. 

I don't want to hear about Red, though.  That would be comparing apples to oranges, and can lead nowhere.

Well we do sell more red buttons than any other color hehe!

There really is a practical limit of 8 on axes on one board, otherwise the CPU on the board can't keep up with the poll-rate of the USB protocol. That little 8-bit processor has to do some 16-bit arithmetic.
A board with a high number of axes would be a different animal to the design intention of this board, which was to provide a versatile board with 32 inputs for switches, and the directions being analog if required. That's no reason not to do another version though, and I will do so. To do it properly a new PCB would be needed though as the markings would not be very helpful.

Aw, shucks- eight axes is probably enough- I just figured if the board could do more, why not?  But if you have to build a new board to go past 8, then I doubt it's worth it.  I suppose that if 2-player Cybersled (2 analog joys per player) ever works in MAME, and somebody wants a Cybersled panel and say, racing pedals, without hooking and unhooking anything, then they would use more than 8 axes.  But how many people is that?

On the other hand, an 8 axis version may be pretty popular down the line, as that would support 2 player console emulators for Playstation, X-Box, and any others that use two players with dual analog gamepads.  Personally, I want 8 axes right now to build a Mutant Storm cab!

[the3eyedblindman]

Could this interface be used to make a cab like this... http://arcadegames.home.mindspring.com/driving/ , a driving cab with one 360 wheel, one 270 wheel, and one pedal?

[pointdablame]

Could this interface be used to make a cab like this... http://arcadegames.home.mindspring.com/driving/ , a driving cab with one 360 wheel, one 270 wheel, and one pedal?

You won't be able to use a 360 wheel with it, but you could do a 270 and pedals.

[Tommy Boy]

Whoo, whoo. I'm putting POT based spinners on my next panel now!

  BTW, where can you find these?  Happ's "track wheel" looks like it's also an optical control from the exploded view -- is that right?  Who else sells them?  CAn you get them new?

[Grasshopper]

The only problem with this board is that it is USB only so that rules out DOS and older hardware although I suppose DOS users can still get 4 analogue inputs from the gameport.

More importantly, it presumably means the board won't be compatible with the X-Box and Playstation converters.

I think a better solution would be to have console compatibility built into the I-Pac/A-Pac/Mini-Pac boards instead of producing separate converter boards, even if that means they end up costing more.

[paigeoliver]

Whoo, whoo. I'm putting POT based spinners on my next panel now!

  BTW, where can you find these?  Happ's "track wheel" looks like it's also an optical control from the exploded view -- is that right?  Who else sells them?  CAn you get them new?

Look for Pong controllers on ebay. Lots of different ones out there. You can also use paddle controllers from home pong systems, or simply get some spinner knobs and mount them to pots.

[Flinkly]

hmm...pot based spinner.  that would be real nice for the arkanoid and other games of that nature, right?  but what kind of pot would you want?  a 100k?  alot of my pot based items are already 5k, so i'd love to stick to what i've got.  also, do they have pots with long shafts?  man, so many new ideas this week.  i don't think my mind can take it.

[Lilwolf]

pot based spinners have some issues..

either the don't spin, or they jump from high to lo at some point.

This isn't really designed for spinners.. Would be great for omega race... but that controller would only be good in omega race... that assuming that the driver works well with original controllers... and this isn't always the case.  (I have an original omega race control panel... but the pot is busted... sigh)

[gnateye]

im interested in the adapters too. id like to make an aracde steering wheel panel for my cab that i could use for my console drivers too.

will your new xbox and the forthcoming playstation adapters work with this in combo with a steering wheel? and how about using a 3rd party dreamcast converter with your ps2 converter? will that work, or will i have to wait for a dreamcast converter for the Apac?

im definatly wanting one of these. i just need to clear up my understanding of it all first...

[NoOne=NBA=]

And, Green is definately superior to Blue or Yellow- It has everything they have, all rolled into one. 

I don't want to hear about Red, though.  That would be comparing apples to oranges, and can lead nowhere.

You've completely poisoned the Red vs. Blue subthread by introducing new, non-original colors into the debate.

I'm just glad to see that the true MARKET research, done by Andy, supports my original claim that Red is better.

My claims were based on a visual poll of posted projects.
His claims are based on actual SALES of buttons, whether they are subsequently posted in the project forum, or not.

[Kremmit]

pot based spinners have some issues..

either the don't spin, or they jump from high to lo at some point.

Pot based spinners (Paddles) are also known as 270 degree wheels, Analog Pedals, and Analog Joystick axes.  Do these all have issues? 

[Lilwolf]

No...  they do what they do and do it great.

By spinners I was thinking Omega race specific (there are a few others also).  These look like spinners but use pots.

there are two type of pots that can be used for these. 

One that only turns part way... but these would be bad since you couldn't continue to turn left after a bit. 

One that turns all the way around, but at the end, it jumps back to 0 (whats sent to the computer).  This would also be bad since you would have to make sure the drivers in mame are expecting this.  Many mame drivers do not handle the real controls from the real machines because the mame developers want to get them working with normal hardware (ie, mouse)...

But 270s will work great... Starwars controlers great.... Omega race controllers great (if they work with Omega race is another issue).

[Kremmit]

No...  they do what they do and do it great.

By spinners I was thinking Omega race specific (there are a few others also).  These look like spinners but use pots.

there are two type of pots that can be used for these. 

One that only turns part way... but these would be bad since you couldn't continue to turn left after a bit. 

One that turns all the way around, but at the end, it jumps back to 0 (whats sent to the computer).  This would also be bad since you would have to make sure the drivers in mame are expecting this.  Many mame drivers do not handle the real controls from the real machines because the mame developers want to get them working with normal hardware (ie, mouse)...

But 270s will work great... Starwars controlers great.... Omega race controllers great (if they work with Omega race is another issue).

Ah, I wondered why you were bashing them, but I was only thinking of travel-limited pots, like a Pong Paddle.  The A-Pac won't know those from a 270 wheel, and should not have any issues.  I forgot about free-rotating ones, like on Omega Race- those would be the ones with the issues you mentioned.  I suppose these would need some special code to be used, either in MAME, or a Windows driver, or hardware support built in on the A-Pac.     

[SirPoonga]

I've been wanting to make a throttle control for my LEGAL Lunar Lander (thanks Star Roms!).  Though JUST for that a joystick hack would be much cheaper.  This does bring up a question.  I haven't played lunar lander with a joystick in sometime, just a spinner to control the throttle.  If I remember for lunar lander it only looks at the joystick UP.  So how would one wire a single pot to act as only a windows joystick up?  Aren't there racing games where the gas is up and the brake is down but the actual hardware the pedal are seperate?

Good possible uses for this:
Simulate 49way games, Pigskin, Arch Rivals, and Sinistar support analog input to simulate a 49way.  Blitz doesn't but then get the PC version and use this product with that
Warlords!  Which reminds, will have to look up 2+ player simutaneuos paddle games now to see how useful this actually is!

[Magnet_Eye]

So, uh, we can connect a Star Wars yoke to this I assume?

[AndyWarne]

MAME usually takes a logical approach to analog controls. For example a pedal control starts with the pot near one end and MAME would see this as a "pedal up" with the other end of the travel being "pedal down".
Most analog controls don't use the full pot range. So the full logical travel can be obtained by running through the Windows calibration routine, just once for each control. This will ensure full logical travel. In fact you can tweak the travel if you wish, so as to get a full logical travel over only part of the physical travel.
It's perfectly OK to connect only one up/down pot, and have the left/right as switches.
Another neat feature is the MAME joystick dead-zone setting which means you can tune an analog stick when you use it as a digital, by selecting the joystick physical throw before the direction is seen as activated.
Andy

[Kremmit]

Andy- Can you say when the 8-axis board will be ready?  Put me down for the first one!

[richms]

first, i'd like to say that adding a device numbering scheme would be nice.  the mroe complicated our machines get, the more interface devices were gonna have, and the larger possibility for needing two of these on one comp.

Also, usefull for when I get my changable control panel working, can have different IDs in the 2 panels so they need no configuring when swapped over.

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks for this. USB IDs it is then...

Andy, did USB ID's ever get added to the A-PAC.  I noticed that nothing prompts the user for them on the website or the order page.  Do you have a rough idea when they will be added?

Also, some addtional questions on the devices:  From your website:

Note: Two of the inputs have special functions: The

[AndyWarne]

I have supplied 5 USB ID'd boards to one customer by request. I will try to get ID'd boards added as a selection to the website as soon as possible.

The pot value must be the same on each side of the board, so no, you can't have one pot of one value and 3 pots of another value. They must be in pairs.

Andy

[Flinkly]

hey andy,

since were asking about functionalities, how did the more-than-four axes boards work out?  while i love ultimarc interfaces, i still can't justify spending more for a board that only supports 4 axes (plus shipping, dang sea...) when i can get one with 5 axes for the same price (including shipping, dave's aki board).

what would be the maximum axes?  and you mention how windows displays them as vertical bars, but do they still have positive and negative directions?  would price increase?  also, i'm sure that each side of the board would have to have the same pot values, as they do now, right?  i have no problem with this since all my pots have been 5k so far.  thanks for the info, and the new product.

[Tiger-Heli]

Flinkly,

Andy said earlier that 8 would be the maximum number of axes per board, although I suppose you could plug in as many boards as you wanted.

[krick]

It was windows 98SE, which is still very common among cabs and cabinet builders. I can't test it on XP because I don't have any identical USB equipment anymore.

From what I've seen, you can avoid the swapping problem by:

1) using a motherboard with more than 1 pair of ports, and
2) plugging devices with identical IDs into different port pairs.

Each pair of USB ports on a motherboard is tied to a single USB controller that shows up in device manager.  Most current motherboards have 8 ports.  2 pairs on the back panel, and two pairs accessible via motherboard headers for front panel USB or extra ports on a bracket.  4 pairs = 4 controllers.

Items should only be able to swap when they are both attached to the same controller (plugged into the same port pair).

[Kremmit]

I'm waiting on the 8-axis version, too.

[Flinkly]

yeah, with the eight axis thing, i'm not looking to use them all right now, but if i'm to buy an a-pac, it better have eight axis.  now i understand why the buttons are there on the first versions, but still, i could use more axis more than i could use more buttons.  by the time i get my swappable panel cab built, my possible button count will be through the roof.  of course i'll never use more than two players worth of buttons, but that's just me.

i'm just looking to get the extra axis cause you never know when your gonna need them.  i might want to add more pedals for two player driving.

and as to the controller itself, lets say all my arcade equipment has 5k pots.  if i set everything up in mame right, can i hot swap controllers?  say a swap between a 270 degree wheel and a star wars yoke?  or just flat out attaching a star wars yoke where nothing was attached before?  i'm sorry if this has already been asked, but i have read this whole thread, just not recently. 

[Kremmit]

8 axes really isn't all that many; it's what you'll need to emulate 2 players worth of gamepads with dual analog joys.  (PS2, Xbox)

[Flinkly]

well, enough for two pot based 270 wheels and four potted pedals for gas and brake.  this is the most i could see myself using...

if i'm right, that's 6 axes.  i'd never see myself using two yokes.  i guess i'm saying it's enough  for me.  so how about my hot swappable question?

[Tiger-Heli]

well, enough for two pot based 270 wheels and four potted pedals for gas and brake.  this is the most i could see myself using...

if i'm right, that's 6 axes.  i'd never see myself using two yokes.  i guess i'm saying it's enough  for me.  so how about my hot swappable question?

Add clutch pedals and you're up to eight.

[Tiger-Heli]

and as to the controller itself, lets say all my arcade equipment has 5k pots.  if i set everything up in mame right, can i hot swap controllers?  say a swap between a 270 degree wheel and a star wars yoke?  or just flat out attaching a star wars yoke where nothing was attached before?  i'm sorry if this has already been asked, but i have read this whole thread, just not recently. 

AFAICT, you can hot-swap like this, but you will likely need to calibrate the newly installed controller in Windows.

For that matter, if you are using DB25 connectors or the like, you could install different capacitors across the same pins on your SW yoke and 270 wheel and hot-swap even if the pots are different.

[Tiger-Heli]

It was windows 98SE, which is still very common among cabs and cabinet builders. I can't test it on XP because I don't have any identical USB equipment anymore.

From what I've seen, you can avoid the swapping problem by:

1) using a motherboard with more than 1 pair of ports, and
2) plugging devices with identical IDs into different port pairs.

Each pair of USB ports on a motherboard is tied to a single USB controller that shows up in device manager.  Most current motherboards have 8 ports.  2 pairs on the back panel, and two pairs accessible via motherboard headers for front panel USB or extra ports on a bracket.  4 pairs = 4 controllers.

Items should only be able to swap when they are both attached to the same controller (plugged into the same port pair).

Good information, thanks Krick.  Just want to add that for an older mobo, you can add a PCI add-on card with USB ports which would be seen as a separate controller and avoid the problem as well.