486 Update! HELP! AHHHHHH!

[bcard74]

Good lord.  Here is the situation.  I have my hands on a 486DX-4 120Mhz with 8MB of RAM.  I installed one of the oldest versions of Mame I could find, and booted up Pac-Man.  It is SO SLOW it is unbelieveable.  Any ideas?  Not enough RAM?  Is a 120Mhz 486 just not enough?  Not sure what sort of video card is in there, but I am sure it is CPU and RAM related.

Any ideas are much apperciated!

[JustMichael]

What version of Mame?  Have you tried the older versions of Mame at Mame.net?

[bcard74]

What version of Mame?  Have you tried the older versions of Mame at Mame.net?

OK, here could be a major problem.  256k video card.  AHHHH!!  Can't get more than 20 FPS even in Vantage.

Version 07b is the culprit, one of the earliest ones I could find ...

SO ...  Now I am thinking it must be that horrific video card in conjunction with the 8 Megs of RAM.  Theoretically, with 24 Megs and a 2MB video card, I *should* be able to play Frogger in Mame ??  Certainly in Vantage I would imagine.

Thanks for the help.

[bcard74]

Anyone??  Help please!

[rampy]

I would imagine that trying to change the video card first would be a great initial step... I'm sure pacman can run in 8 megs so I wouldn't sweat the RAM (for the initial test)  but more's nicer to have.

So yeah... if you have a card you could shlop in their that's *at least* 1 meg video ram I'm sure you'll see if that's the issue...

I don't know about MAME, but you should be able to get one of the standalone/older machine optimized emulators to run at a decent rate on the 486/120 ( as I mentioned in a different thread I used to run david spicers sparcade and retrocade, etc on a 486/dx2 66 with 1 meg vid ram  and 16 megs of RAM back in the day...)

*shrug*  Just try it and see it's not a difficult swap unless you are having trouble tracking down another vid card (hopefully you have a pci slot on that mobo =P )

good luck,

rampy

[Dink]

Anyone??  Help please!

Buy a faster computer.    

[Howard_Casto]

You need at least 16 mb of ram and a decent vid card in that thing as the other's have stated.  In other words "Get a better machine"

[bcard74]

I am aware of the fact that a faster computer will work.  However, my question is whether an increase in RAM and a better video card will actually PLAY these older games.  Why bother buying a P166 or something for 50 bucks when I can spend 5 on a 2MB card and another rack of RAM?  The whole computer only cost me 15 bucks CAD, thats about $.03 USD.  And yes, I know that is about what its worth

Thanks  

[Dink]

I was going to go more for the: "You get what you pay for." quote...

If everything is so cheap, then why not just do it and not bang your head in public?

[bcard74]

I was going to go more for the: "You get what you pay for." quote...

If everything is so cheap, then why not just do it and not bang your head in public?

Its not just money, it is the time to go around and find this stuff and put it in.  Last time I checked that was the purpose of this board.  Maybe someone has experience with trying the same thing and can tell me whether it will work or not with that kind of hardware.  Saves time and my all precious 5 bucks.

Sorry to bang my head on your time.

[BobA]

I was trying to get an old mame running on a 486/75 with 24 Meg of memory.  I found that I could not get it to work properly with the 4 meg vid.  Since it was a laptop I could not try a replacement of the vid card.  So my guess would be that more memory will not help without zipping up the vid card.  Even the other stripped down emulators such as vantage, retrocade etc would not perform.

BobA

[Dink]

Its not just money, it is the time to go around and find this stuff and put it in.  Last time I checked that was the purpose of this board.  Maybe someone has experience with trying the same thing and can tell me whether it will work or not with that kind of hardware.  Saves time and my all precious 5 bucks.

Sorry to bang my head on your time.

I never said it wasn't the purpose of this board.  Your post is quite valid.

You can bang your head on my time all you want.  If I had a problem I wouldn't come to this website or read your posts.

...lets get back to the banging... (giggle)

[SirPoonga]

I am aware of the fact that a faster computer will work.  However, my question is whether an increase in RAM and a better video card will actually PLAY these older games.  Why bother buying a P166 or something for 50 bucks when I can spend 5 on a 2MB card and another rack of RAM?  The whole computer only cost me 15 bucks CAD, thats about $.03 USD.  And yes, I know that is about what its worth

Thanks  

First, Where are you going to find SIMMs?
Then you hace to find out if they are past page or EDO and what the 486 can handle.

Oh, I just read your original post again.  What OS you using, dos?  If do pacman is not running slow because of memory, unless you here alot of swapping with your hd.  8megs I think woul be fine for mame in dos with just pacman.  Though I just ran mame 61 with pacman and it takes up 31megs.  So a little more ram is probably needed.  Probably a 32meg chip will do for pacman:)  Note, an older mame in dos won't take up that much mem.

I gotta give you the build a new computer speech too:)
Computers are alot cheaper.  I know you don't want to spend much money on a new computer, but prices have dropped alot.  $400 for a new computer is super cheap, considering 5 years ago it was $4000 for a new top of the line computer which only was about a P200 at the time.

You know, for $300-$400 you can haved a very awesome system.  
These prices ceom from pricewatch.  They are not always the cheapest price there! I look for more quality products there than the cheapest.  Look at reviews for products first.
IDE 25gig drive WD  - $54
ATI Radeon VE - $33
ATX 400W case - $43
Micron 265meg memory - $22
CDROM 48x (a little over kill imho) - $20
AMD Athlon XP 1900 (1.6Ghz) + Shuttle mobo $138
That's $310, add in more if you want keyboard and mouse:)

Those prices are with shipping:)  As pricewatch lists prices with shipping now, woohoo.  Though if you live some place with a good computer store check their prices out.

I've had good luck with shuttle, not other cheap mobos.  Though you could spend a little more and get an asus or abit for high quality.


BTW, I'm not saying build that machine and make it your mame machine, if you want to great,  though that can become your main machine and you could use the one you currently play mame on:)

[bcard74]

All agreed on the newer system.  However, I am looking to spend 20 bucks on a computer to build a bar top with, and thats my budget.  If I can weasel this 486 to do the trick, great.  If not, of well, I will tear it apart and give it away on Ebay and make my 10 US dollars back in shipping.

I just went out and traded an old guitar amp for a Pentium 200MMX with 32 MB of RAM and a 6 GB HD.  12 MB Video card and a SB 16.  Got it for basically 50 bucks worth of amplifier.  Just trying to get it working now but I can't get anything on the screen ...

All this is just trying to be done so I can get used to building a little bit and not spend very much money as I have my Rampage cabinet stripped down and ready to go.  Once I get this VERY cheap little bar top done, I will be in a better financial situation to buy another good computer and put this 1.4 Athlon in my cabinet.

All I am trying to do is practice a little without spending any money and see if I can get a little bar top going for under a hundred bucks.

Thanks for your posts, I understand where you are all coming from in the upgrade department, I hope you understand a bit more where I am coming from too.  Cheers, thanks again.

Brent

[SirPoonga]

And as I said, where you going to find SIMMs?  I think a little more memory will help, but if you can get a pentium class computer that will be better.

Man, I still have my 486/133 around, but it doesn;t have the memory anymore:(

[Chris]

What kind of motherboard is it?  Does it take 36 pin SIMMs or 72 pin SIMMs?  I might have some 72 pin SIMMs lying around....

Have you tried forcing a lower resolution video mode, like -320x200?

--Chris

[bcard74]

And as I said, where you going to find SIMMs?  I think a little more memory will help, but if you can get a pentium class computer that will be better.

Man, I still have my 486/133 around, but it doesn;t have the memory anymore:(

Its frickin' 30 pin, so it is hard to find more than 1MB sticks.  Only 4 slots, so unless I can find 4 MB sticks in 30 pin it will not be good.  There are still a bunch of computer stores around here that have old SIMMS, but it is very hard to get anything substantial.

I am trying a 1MB vid card tonight, I will see what that does for it.  However, it is all a moot point really now that I have this 200MMX which should easily do what I want it to, I hope.

Brent

[Chris]

eBay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2059743673

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2060857628

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2060883358

(This one has a $27.50 Buy It Now for Eight 4 MB, 60ns, 30 pin SIMMs)

[SirPoonga]

eBay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2059743673

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2060857628

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2060883358

(This one has a $27.50 Buy It Now for Eight 4 MB, 60ns, 30 pin SIMMs)

man, those prices are a rip off for 30pin simms.
Though you can't find them anymore:)  It's suggest going with that pentium computer, your just asking for trouble with the 486.  That;s weird though, a 120 486 that uses the older 30pin simms.

[HeadRusch]

I have to agree:  A free 486 is good, but not if you have to spend $150 to 'upgrade it' to make a handfull of games playable.

Again I say two days ago I got a 1.33Ghz Athlon, Radeon 7500, ATI MB, power supply and fans, and using a spare ram chip I had and a spare 8gig HD, I've got a mame monster for less than $200 bones total.

Case? Who needs one......screw it down to a piece of wood.  Done.  

From Pooga's post above:
>>IDE 25gig drive WD  - $54

(You can find 10 gig drives for 1/2 this price, which will easily hold all the mame roms, windows, Mp3's ,etc...tho perhaps not much else and you're paying more per megabyte than you would if you spent a few more bucks than $53 to get get, say a 30 or 40 gig HD which is where the "sweet spot" is right now I think, maybe its 80gigs...)

>>ATI Radeon VE - $33
Good Choice....this board will even let you play modern PC games on it, tho at lower resolutions.....for another $20 I'd consider the Radeon 7500, which is significantly more powerful...on the other hand, if you absolutely will not play a PC game on the box.....its not necessary.

>>ATX 400W case - $43
Hmmm..to me this is too much.  Buy a 300 watt power supply for $15 bucks
and skip the case...it just gets in the way.  

>>Micron 265meg memory - $22
Yup....remember when ram was 300 bucks a meg?  

>>CDROM 48x (a little over kill imho) - $20
$20 bucks is $20 bucks  Mcdonalds for 4, or 2 drinks at a decent bar

>>AMD Athlon XP 1900 (1.6Ghz) + Shuttle mobo $138
Ehhhh.....ok......this to me is also overkill, way overkill if you want a budget.
Pooga..get an XP 1900 and only a 25 gig HD?  

Stick with a Thunderbird athlon or a XP 1500 or 1600 to save money.....

All of course my 02 cents, your mileage may vary.  Still the idea everyone here is chiming in with is the same: What you got for free is just that...free.  I wouldn't spend a dime in upgrading it.   If you're going to spend $50 bucks to upgrade, you should spend $150 to do it right.

[bcard74]

Again, I agree with it all, but everyone is missing my point.  This system was meant for my bartop cabinet to play a handful of games.  I will be getting a REAL system in the next couple of months for my Rampage cab which will have all the bells and whistles.  All I am trying to do is practice with interfaces, buttons and sticks for CHEAP and see if I can end up with a bartop at the end of it.

I am not spending any money upgrading this thing, believe me ...  30 US for 30pin RAM?  No thanks.

Thanks for all the price quotes, it is unbelieveable how cheap things are getting, even if I am buying in Canadian dollars.  When I buy my new system I will heed the above advice, I agree with it all.

Thanks to everyone for responding, since I nabbed a P200MMX hopefully the 486 issue will go silently into the night ...

[Howard_Casto]

Again, I agree with it all, but everyone is missing my point.  This system was meant for my bartop cabinet to play a handful of games.  I will be getting a REAL system in the next couple of months for my Rampage cab which will have all the bells and whistles.  All I am trying to do is practice with interfaces, buttons and sticks for CHEAP and see if I can end up with a bartop at the end of it.

I am not spending any money upgrading this thing, believe me ...  30 US for 30pin RAM?  No thanks.

Thanks for all the price quotes, it is unbelieveable how cheap things are getting, even if I am buying in Canadian dollars.  When I buy my new system I will heed the above advice, I agree with it all.

Thanks to everyone for responding, since I nabbed a P200MMX hopefully the 486 issue will go silently into the night ...

Actually we do get the point... what we are getting at is without upgrading it isn't even workable as-is.  And if you do upgrade you are going to waste your money as you need a better starting point.  So it might be best to wait.  

sorry

[mikenotbob]

bcard74,

Rock on with your 486... It's fun to eek out every last morsel of speed from a dinosaur. Keep it in use and out of the landfill!

Speaking of keeping computers in use...  The other day I came across a DOS web browser, 'Arachne'.  I haven't had a chance to play with it, but between that and say, FreeDOS, there's a lot of pc resuscitation out there to be done for those who just need a web browser and some simple word processing.

[HeadRusch]

Bottom Line: If you can't get Vantage running on it, or come into some free 2 meg ISA or PCI videocards (whatever your MB supports....a 486 I think was still all ISA, can't recall that far back ).......then you're stuck with what you have.

Look at it this way...you can try running Nesticle or something like that, have it emulate a NES or whatever......and build a bartop off that.

A 486 was built to run VGA games at 320x200 resolution, and windows at 640x480 IF you had a videocard that could do that "heavy work" .
Don't be too upset if it doesn't run Mame, etc..............

Good Luck with the 200........that ought to put you in a LOT better shape!

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah what's really hurting you is the lack of ram and the crappy vid card. It's pretty much unplayable as is... unless you can cheaply get ahold of a vid card and a stick of 72 pin ram then you are probably s.o.l.  

[bcard74]

Last night I put 16 MB of RAM and a 1MB card in it and it is much better, but still crap.

Have to go with the 200MMX, that will run the classics I am sure.  Thanks for everyones input.

Brent

[Chris]

Did you ever try forcing a lower resolution video mode, like -320x200?

--Chris

[SirPeale]

I just happened to come across this thread while searching for information for the bartop I'm going to build.

Your 486 running VAntAGE is just fine.  You could use more RAM (try a computer show, you might get lucky) but the real problem is the video card.  The old adage is that it doesn't matter how much memory your vid card has, as MAME just outputs to the screen.

Well, that's wrong.  I had a K62/500 that I put a 256k video card into, and was getting 2-3 FPS from Pac-Man.  Replaced with a 2M card, and everything was fine.

Finding an ISA card that has more memory will be kind of tricky.  I've got a 486 right now that uses shared memory with the on board video.  The Trident chip mangles the video signal, and nothing is viewable.  Would have been sweet to use it, as the profile is quite low!  Luckily all the 486's I have have PCI slots.  Yes, 486s had them, but not too many.

One such board was the KM-S4-1 (see my tech page on my website for details on that board).  Another was the VIP.

Parts for such beasts are out there, it just takes some looking.  Good luck.

[rampy]

I just happened to come across this thread while searching for information for the bartop I'm going to build.

Your 486 running VAntAGE is just fine.  You could use more RAM (try a computer show, you might get lucky) but the real problem is the video card.  The old adage is that it doesn't matter how much memory your vid card has, as MAME just outputs to the screen.

Well, that's wrong.  I had a K62/500 that I put a 256k video card into, and was getting 2-3 FPS from Pac-Man.  Replaced with a 2M card, and everything was fine.

Finding an ISA card that has more memory will be kind of tricky.  I've got a 486 right now that uses shared memory with the on board video.  The Trident chip mangles the video signal, and nothing is viewable.  Would have been sweet to use it, as the profile is quite low!  Luckily all the 486's I have have PCI slots.  Yes, 486s had them, but not too many.

One such board was the KM-S4-1 (see my tech page on my website for details on that board).  Another was the VIP.

Parts for such beasts are out there, it just takes some looking.  Good luck.

Peale... Have you tried utlizing an old copy of scitech display doctor to get the most out of that old embeded trident chip?

Odd that this comes up as yesterday I was looking for vid card bargains on ebay and saw someone selling a VLB (very long bus card -  remember those!?) and nearly spit my soda through my nose =P

rampy

[SirPeale]

Peale... Have you tried utlizing an old copy of scitech display doctor to get the most out of that old embeded trident chip?

Odd that this comes up as yesterday I was looking for vid card bargains on ebay and saw someone selling a VLB (very long bus card -  remember those!?) and nearly spit my soda through my nose =P

I haven't.  I'm not sure that it would help.  I seem to remember something about Trident chips and shared video memory not liking MAME for some reason.  Although it's been a while, perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me.

As for a VLB video card, I've got a Number Nine VLB (Vesa Local Bus) card that I paid $110 back in 1996 for still lying around.  Another card as well (not a #9) but I could be wrong.  But, the 486 in question only has ISA and PCI ports, so it's a moot point.  Besides, in a bartop unit, lower profile is the key, right?

[seaner]

I am aware of the fact that a faster computer will work.  However, my question is whether an increase in RAM and a better video card will actually PLAY these older games.  Why bother buying a P166 or something for 50 bucks when I can spend 5 on a 2MB card and another rack of RAM?  The whole computer only cost me 15 bucks CAD, thats about $.03 USD.  And yes, I know that is about what its worth

Thanks  

I have some old dimms if you really need them.  No more 486 in the house.  But I'd rather not donate them if you're just going to end up picking up a p200 or something next week

[StarGoddess222]

hey...there's this program called PacPC kinda like a vertically scrolling pacman (mazes are still the arcade versions, though).  it can run in DOS on a 386 25.

[Amra]

The Vid Card will make a diffrence on older cards, but not on newer cards.  I run Mame on a 1 Meg Trident 8900 ISA just fine.  You do need enough video memory to hold each frame, and draw the next frame before its blinked onscreen (think of it like having a buffer for the video) but anything more then 4 MB and your just wasteing money.

[shmokes]

honestly, why are you even trying?  I throw away pentium 90's on a semi regular basis.   I can't even donate them to State agencies (I work for the gov't).  I can't donate them to anybody.  You could seriously double the speed of your processor for free.  

Why don't you try running mame on an abacus.

[SirPeale]

honestly, why are you even trying?  I throw away pentium 90's on a semi regular basis.   I can't even donate them to State agencies (I work for the gov't).  I can't donate them to anybody.  You could seriously double the speed of your processor for free.  

Why don't you try running mame on an abacus.

Why?  Why not?  When all you're interested in doing is making a cabinet for classics, you don't need the extra ponypower.  Besides, it's a challenge, and it's fun.  I can tackle the problem of my Trident chipset with another video card, but now I'll have to see if I can dig up an old copy of the SciTech Display Doctor, see if I can give it a run for it's money.

I don't know where you are, but if you were close, I'd take those P90's off your hands.

[Hamselv]

A 486 can become very playable at the right temperature!

And if I understand 'bartop' correctly, then you will probably have the means to overclock your proud, old PC up to downright chilling speeds! (Really bad joke, I know)

Check out the site, though:

http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html

[Wade]

I run a bunch of classics on a P-133 in my cabinet right now.  Version 0.36 for Dos, big difference between that and the newer versions (performance-wise).  I haven't tried it on a 486 though!

AMD 1700+ is on the way though... I want to play some modern fighters!

Wade

[Lilwolf]

I am now giving p233 away to friends (friends wifes really who want an email machine only).

You can get SUPER cheap refurb'd machines around.  Check compgeeks.com

p2-333 for 89
http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=HPKT333-1

p2-400 for 88
http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=IBM300GL-36B

[SirPeale]

Peale... Have you tried utlizing an old copy of scitech display doctor to get the most out of that old embeded trident chip?

Odd that this comes up as yesterday I was looking for vid card bargains on ebay and saw someone selling a VLB (very long bus card -  remember those!?) and nearly spit my soda through my nose =P

I downloaded Display Doctor, and it came thru...beautifully!

It's only a 486/66 DX, but plays Pac-Man at 60 FPS.  Everything else around 30 or so.  Scanlines enabled chops that figure in half.

This is using VAntAGE 1.11

Too bad this thing doesn't have onboard sound, I'd be all set.

[SirPeale]

What's a good old board that has onboard sound/video that has DOS drivers?  I found one this weekend with an ESS chipset, and now I kick myself for not picking it up.

[StephenH]

First of all, a 486 IS going to run MAME pretty slow.   It simply does not have enough power to run MAME.    If you are searching for a cheap MAME PC, you could search for a used P2 or P3, if you want to play mainly early 80s games.  For later (16/32/64 bit games), you need a much faster CPU.

If you really want to use a 486, Search the web for the Retrocade emu.  It runs a lot of older games well on a 486.

[SirPoonga]

hey...there's this program called PacPC kinda like a vertically scrolling pacman (mazes are still the arcade versions, though).  it can run in DOS on a 386 25.

Whoa, I think I just went into shock.  SG, what brought you out of the chat room and into the forum?


Anyway, back to subject.  Yeah, glad you realized the computer is just too old.  I am trying to get one of eightbit's 486 computer.  I might convert it to a digital picture frame or a way to display scores for my dartboard, otherwise I don't see much use for it  I'm just glad you can install linux over network:)  No cdrom drive will cause some issues.

[rampy]

Peale... Have you tried utlizing an old copy of scitech display doctor to get the most out of that old embeded trident chip?

Odd that this comes up as yesterday I was looking for vid card bargains on ebay and saw someone selling a VLB (very long bus card -  remember those!?) and nearly spit my soda through my nose =P

I downloaded Display Doctor, and it came thru...beautifully!

It's only a 486/66 DX, but plays Pac-Man at 60 FPS.  Everything else around 30 or so.  Scanlines enabled chops that figure in half.

This is using VAntAGE 1.11

Too bad this thing doesn't have onboard sound, I'd be all set.

while we are getting wacky with 486's here...  it got me thinking...

If you want to keep the profile low, maybe you could create/get one of those 90 degree bend slot adapter...   they basically take card that would go vertical and have it go in sideways/horizontal (although in  a mobo not designed for that you might be sacrificing the other slots just to get sound out of one....)

Just a wacky idea, and probably way too much effort... (but if you have a junk/parts pile you might have the stuff to make your own)  but  hey...  it's an option (another option is buying any other semi-modern smallish/incuded form factor mobo/chip) =P

good luck!
rampy

[SirPeale]

First of all, a 486 IS going to run MAME pretty slow.   It simply does not have enough power to run MAME.    If you are searching for a cheap MAME PC, you could search for a used P2 or P3, if you want to play mainly early 80s games.  For later (16/32/64 bit games), you need a much faster CPU.

If you really want to use a 486, Search the web for the Retrocade emu.  It runs a lot of older games well on a 486.

Who said I was running MAME?  VAntAGE runs what I want it to very well.  

[SirPeale]

while we are getting wacky with 486's here...  it got me thinking...

If you want to keep the profile low, maybe you could create/get one of those 90 degree bend slot adapter...   they basically take card that would go vertical and have it go in sideways/horizontal (although in  a mobo not designed for that you might be sacrificing the other slots just to get sound out of one....)

Just a wacky idea, and probably way too much effort... (but if you have a junk/parts pile you might have the stuff to make your own)  but  hey...  it's an option (another option is buying any other semi-modern smallish/incuded form factor mobo/chip) =P

The 486 motherboard I've got has PCI slots as well as ISA, so the riser adaptor (for the 90 degree thing) isn't like one of those.  Pity, as I've got like three ISA 90 degree adaptors (they're not really adaptors, they just add three ISA slots to a low profile case)

Well, I'll just have to keep looking.  There's a guy in town that has a lot of old stuff.  I'll have to pay him a visit.  I was just looking for specific make/model that people might remember, so if I ran across something on eBay, I could focus on it.