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Author Topic: RGVAC vs. BYOAC????  (Read 3656 times)

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x-wing

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RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« on: August 03, 2002, 08:00:56 pm »
Ya know, threads like like this one kinda tick me off.  It's one thing to be upset about someone MAME'ing an operational classic cab (which the BYOAC community is against!!), but to go out of their way to make fun of scratch-built cabs, or projects that they don't have any history on is another.

For all this Josh guy knows, the owner of that Track 'n Field MAME cab rescued it empty out of a dump somewhere.  He bases his entire story off a picture he doesn't know anything about either.  I like the part where he mentions that there isn't glass present in front of the monitor.  Very often when I photograph cabs, I remove the glass to cut down on glare from the camera flash, but I guess he would look at one of my pictures and assume that I didn't have glass at all, or think that I didn't know that it was supposed to be there.

So what is the root behind the ridicule from the RGVAC towards those interested in BYOAC?  Is our hobby any less fulfilling?  How often do you see us making fun of them?  Is this just something they do to make their own lives seem more full or something?

AlanS17

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2002, 04:25:30 pm »
Personally, I feel that a used cabinet has more charm than a built cabinet. Besides the fact that it's easier, I don't feel like I would be getting the full experience if I wasn't using an original arcade machine. That brings me to a question... can you actually call a built cabinet an "arcade machine"? I don't mean to start any arguements or anything. It's just that it's never seen an arcade, and never will.

Take me for example. My favorite game of all time is Killer Instinct. So when I wanted a machine, I went down and bought (and paid good money) for the very same machine that I learned how to play KI on. The particular machine has real sentimental value to me. I didn't just buy "a" KI machine... I bought "the" KI machine.  It's more that just the game on the inside, it's a real experience to own. It would be like buying your dad's car that you learned to drive with (except it will stay fun alot longer).


D10

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2002, 04:56:26 pm »


Take me for example. My favorite game of all time is Killer Instinct. So when I wanted a machine, I went down and bought (and paid good money) for the very same machine that I learned how to play KI on. The particular machine has real sentimental value to me. I didn't just buy "a" KI machine... I bought "the" KI machine.  It's more that just the game on the inside, it's a real experience to own. It would be like buying your dad's car that you learned to drive with (except it will stay fun alot longer).


Question is, are you going to leave it KI and KI only? If so that's great, but if you plan on converting it to MAME thats what RGVAC is refering to.

Howard_Casto

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2002, 09:31:28 am »
Ok I have to say it.  MAMEing cabs is bad, umk.  I'm not saying a p.o.s. cab that' been converted 14 times is gonna be a great loss, I'm just saying if you have a cab in it's orignal form and it's in good shape, don't screw it up.

That includes but is not limited too:

Taking out all of the original parts/controls and selling them off. (If you keep them that's ok.)

Drilling holes to add extra buttons on the control panel or other alterations that can't be reversed.  

Replacing/covering the sideart or overlay art.  

Doing anything that defiles the original image of the cab.  

(And example would be to take a original, almost mint cab with a beautiful yellow color-scheme and dropping a nasty premade cp in it that not only clashes with the color scheme but looks like you dropped a nasty, premade cp in a otherwise georgous cab.)  

AlanS17, regarding your statements about scratch built cabs....

I can see your point sorta, but for mame purpsoes it's definately better to scrathc build.  If you don't you'll most likely have to ruin the control panel or fit too many controls in a space that isn't large enough.  

Also I have seen cabs (I won't name, names because I don't want to insult anyone.)  that, lets say, would never be allowed in an arcade, but you can build an arcade quality cab if you use the proper measurements and stick to arcade mentality.  

If I put a coin door and a new marquee in my cab it would fit right in at the local arcade, and I built it completely from scratch based on a custom design.  
Now some people's woodworking skills are a tad under par, and their cabs, turn out.... well not as good.  

That does not, however give them a justification to mame a pac man becuase they can't build one themselves.  

The moral of this story.  Be kind to cabs.... Remember arcades are virtually dead so there won't be any more cabs in the traditional sense.  It may seem like there are a lot now, but a few years down the road that Street Fighter alpha 3 you thought was too new to be considered a classic will be scarce and those that mamed them are going to feel awfully guilty.  If a cab is orignal and in good shape DON'T mame it!  Do your best to sell it off to someone who appreciates it, or at the very least keep all of the original parts and do non permenant alterations  to mame it.  And if you do go this route please make the new parts match that cab.  A butchered pacman is a sad sight but a pacman with a hotrod stuffed in it is even sader.  Be kind to that cab and get yourself a nice $40  overlay printed that will match the pacman theme.  

Ok end of rant.  


planetjay

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2002, 04:29:00 pm »
I on the other hand would MAME a Discs Of Tron Environmental if I could afford it and a freind of mine would part with it. Ofcourse I'd put a Chevy 350 in a '76 Porsche 914 if I had one too. ;)

It's not some sacred cow... It's a game. In fact after I moved I'm almost positive that my OmegaRace cockpit will get MAMEd.

However my Turbo cockpit will be exactly duplicated (mirror image) and then sold. I'd MAME it, but the shifter is on the wrong (left) side. Actually I wont really put MAME in that one. That one will likely get a 16:9 TV, Dolby Digital 5.1 and a PSX2 for Grand Turismo 3!

I really think that if you bought it, DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH IT!
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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2002, 08:19:16 pm »
I suppose if you had enough money you could buy the Mona Lisa and draw on it with crayons too.  But it would be very childish, selfish, and a waste of a priceless work of art.  

"MAMEing cabs probably won't make you a bad person, but your probably going to hell anyway, just not for it."  

planetjay

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2002, 08:32:00 pm »
OK! See you there!
planetjay.com. Still in Chicago. Still no hurricanes!

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2002, 08:33:19 pm »

OK! See you there!


Cool I'll bring the marshmellows.  

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2002, 02:24:25 pm »
I know most of you have herd my comments over converting classic cabs before.  But I think its most logical.  If people knew the value of that classic cab they were about to rip into, they would take the time to finish restoring it, sell it for a profit, and they buy a newer 25" 4 player Jamma cab (and still have money left over).

So I'm not disgusted with the fact that people ruin a piece of gaming history, but rather disgusted with their total lack of utter intelligence.

-Dave

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2002, 02:38:48 pm »
Well, I was one of the guys who converted an old cabinet.  It was what I believe to be an old Robotron cabinet which someone had very poorly converted over to Xmen 2 player.  I agree that if a cabinet is in good shape, you should gently remove/add parts should you want to make a mame cabinet, but try your best not to permanantly alter anything.  If it was like mine was, many alterations needed to be made just to make the cabinet presentable, then so be it.  It is better than that old cabinet ending its life in a land fill.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2002, 02:40:48 pm by Davestar »
--Dave

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2002, 07:14:50 pm »
Double standard, huh?
Do you take the classic cab and restore it in the name of preserving classic arcading or do you mame it to support the idea that mame preserves classic arcading.

Howard_Casto

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2002, 12:57:35 pm »

Double standard, huh?
Do you take the classic cab and restore it in the name of preserving classic arcading or do you mame it to support the idea that mame preserves classic arcading.


It's a silly comparison.  Mame is a last ditch effort to save at least the gameplay of a game.  The actual arcade machine is the actual arcade machine.  As long as the roms are dumped a game can be emulated at any time, but once a cab is gone it can't really be brought back.  

The way I honestly feel about it is unless the cab has a hole in the side of it or it's been refitted so many times you can't even recognize it, it shoudln't be mamed.  

Really if the cab is in good enough shape to be mamed then there isn't any reason why you couldn't go the next step and restore it.  And if you do mame a cab, but still have any of the original components, parting it out is inexcusable.  These cabs need to be kept as complete as possible.  

Some of these cabs are truely a work of art, and even the one's that aren't represent a priceless childhood memory to someone.  Like anything old and timeless, they deserve our respect.  I would say the same thing about an old car or an old piece of furniture or even that old black and white tv you saved from the 50's.  All of these things are considered highly collectable and are deemed to be too good to destroy.  Why is it when you talk about more game related antiques that they suddenly become more expendable?

rampy

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2002, 02:17:46 pm »



Really if the cab is in good enough shape to be mamed then there isn't any reason why you couldn't go the next step and restore it.  And if you do mame a cab, but still have any of the original components, parting it out is inexcusable.  These cabs need to be kept as complete as possible.  



Just to be contentious I'd like to point out if everyone did this, there wouldn't be any spare parts available to rebuild beatup/converted/etc classics back to their original glory (well, once all the NOS ran out)... and it would drive the price of the parts up so much that it would be financially difficult to reclaim some cabs former glory....

I don't really disagree with you about MAME-fying a classic cab that's in decent/recognizable shape... but if you have a pacman cab that's been converted a billion times (i.e. everything sanded down and painted black or other colors... CP replaced....) at some point it eventually becomes just a particle wood cabinet and not a classic anymore...  although i'm probably just talking out of my @** anyways =)

But I also see if someone buys something they should be able to do with it what they want... even if it is sacrelgious to RGVAC/arcade collecting community... although it is a shame most of the time what happens to classic cabinets...

*shrug*  I had a point, but I lost 3 paragraphs ago...

rampy

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2002, 04:07:43 pm »
I used a real cabinet building my MAME machine mostly because it was cheaper ($61 from eBay).  I did read the Manifesto before I started, and I'm glad I did...

My cabinet was originally a Super Contra.  It had been converted into a Tekken 2 machine by the time I got my hands on it, with who knows how many conversions in the middle.

The conversion was not done cleanly. The marquee (gone by the time I got it) had been held in place by Plexiglas screwed into the T-molding. The control panel had its original overlay stripped and a laminated piece of a Tekken 2 poster used in its place, and new holes drilled for the extra buttons for Tekken 2. All of the original art had been removed and painted over in black with a paint roller. The original speaker panel had been replaced with a new piece of fiberboard with two square holes cut out for the speakers, so the speakers (two car speakers added after the conversion) didn't fit right.

When I received it, the cabinet had its coin door, the Tekken-ified control panel (with two joysticks and 14 buttons), a power supply (not the original), a wiring harness (also not original), the flourescent lamp for the marquee, the glass, and the coin door (no mechs).  No actual electronics, monitor, art, or marquee were present.

I replaced the control panel and drilled one small hole underneath the control panel overhang to add a volume control.  I also sanded off the rolled-on black, re-primed the cabinet, and repainted with black and added starfield and purple nebula art.  These were the only external modifications to the cabinet.  Everything that was in the cabinet was reused except for the old control panel wood and the power supply.

I like to think that I've given this cabinet a new life: MAMEing it rather than maiming it.  If there would have been any original art,  I certainly would have preserved it.  As it was, post-conversion, it really was more like "just a wooden cabinet" rather than a recognizable Super Contra.  I have, however, tried to avoid modifying it any more than necessary for my needs.

So have I given it new life, or destroyed a classic?  You can see it in the state I received it and in its new life at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/celamantia/mamecab/ .
--Chris
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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2002, 10:53:36 pm »
so far i have destroyed 2 clasic cabs :)...and sold another one to someone(someone on this board) so he can destroy it...it was laying around in the warehouse for nothin...with marvel super heros marque..so i figured i do then sell..am i goin to hell too???

somehow i dont feel bad at all :D..i think old cabs should be convertered to mame unless its in really good shape..no point of trying to restore sf2 all over again....

Howard_Casto

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2002, 06:47:47 am »

so far i have destroyed 2 clasic cabs :)...and sold another one to someone(someone on this board) so he can destroy it...it was laying around in the warehouse for nothin...with marvel super heros marque..so i figured i do then sell..am i goin to hell too???

somehow i dont feel bad at all :D..i think old cabs should be convertered to mame unless its in really good shape..no point of trying to restore sf2 all over again....


That's probably the worst thing I've ever heard....  There is NO excuse not to restore any of the sf2 cabs.  All of the parts are still available and cheaply at that.  If the sideart is in decent shape you can fully restore a sf series cab for around 60 bucks and around 120 if the sideart needs replaced.  Someone who's a genuine fan of the sf series would have gladly done this but it's too late now because you killed it.

Regarding the other comments about restoring cabs.... I do agree that some cabs are hard to restore, espeically the older ones, but it's better to keep it in it's current partial state until reproductions of the original parts can be made, or at least trying to keep everything as is when you mame it than to totally destroy it.  

Also a cab that has been converted a billion times and is in really bad shape probably belongs in the dumpster after the good parts have been removed.  It would be next to impossible to get it back in orignal shape and in my humble opinon is also in too bad of shape to be mamed.  I'm not diss-ing any of the converts out there but several of them, well.... look like a cab that was in really bad shape that was retro-fitted to play mame.

What disgusts me about this hobby is people will spend several hundreds of dollars on controls, interfaces, displays, ect but they aren't willing to pay 60 to 80 dollars to build a cab from scratch or to have someone they know build it for them.  It's kind of like making a dodge omni into a hot-rod. You've got a 15,000 engine in a 500$ chasis.  Why put $500+ in a 15$ reject cab that the distributer didn't even deem worthy of being re-fitted?  

(And they don't give a damn about how well the cab looks, so you know it's in bad shape.)

If you build your cab you get a cab that looks exactly how you want it to, rather than having to settle with whatever is available.  You get a cab designed with mame in mind, so you can make it big enough to put in a large display and all of the other nice features that a mame cab needs.  

I don't even know how this became an argument.....  

Arcade games are designed to play ONE game, while scratch built mame cabs can be designed to play several.  With a few noteable expections I don't know why anyone would want to use an orignal cab anyway, they are simply bad for maming.  

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2002, 11:51:41 am »
I just like the original feel of a real cabinet. But I agree about detroying classics. I've decided against adding MAME into my KI2 machine alongside the original game.

I will, however, be getting another cabinet to fill the void. Don't know which one yet, but I have no intention of detroying a classic. I found a Tekken 2 for $200 at a local arcade that isn't even in the original cabinet. I'm thinking I may use that one. The game was apparently installed for the first time in this new cabinet that wasn't even for that game so it really IS a cabinet without a home. How perfect is that?? The cabinet isn't being stolen from some other game after all.

My carpentry skills are probably less than par so if I tried to build one it would probably turn out like crap and not even look like an arcade machine. This other one has a 25" screen, and alot of CP real estate so it would suit me perfectly... I feel like I've reached the ultimate compromise.

P.S. Anybody want to buy a Tekken 2 PCB? :)


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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2002, 02:06:45 am »

That's probably the worst thing I've ever heard....  There is NO excuse not to restore any of the sf2 cabs.


hahaha !!!

good one..

the cabs had crap in there...no side art...all painted black..metal control panel was from marvel super heros and no idea what else was wrong with it..besides i am not interested in restoring sf2 so i can play one game all the time..my plan was to make some quick cash ;D.now no one would ever buy no sf2 machine for like a $1000..thats what i got from the converted mame machine.

sorry if anyone aint happy about it. :P


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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2002, 02:38:24 pm »
i dont really know if i agree or dont agree with mameing classic cabs...

right now im making a mame cab out of an old double dragon II machine, that was badly converted to MK.

Theres no side art, and the sides were crap, however only the marquee/bezel were in good condition, the cp (while original) looked like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, as well as had 4 extra holes drilled in it.

The boards/monitor had been ripped out.

However, the way it looks now, if it wasnt for the extra buttons, you'd swear it was a mint, new, double dragon II cab.

Theres probably some people out there thinking i should go through the hassles and put DD2 back in there, but I won't.

I feel if you've taken something destined for the trash, even if its a pac-man, and made it presentable, youve done a service right there in itself.


The only thing I have something against is making a MAME cab out of something that works.

For me, no matter what the game, if the internals work the way they should, I wont do anything more than restore and clean up the externals.

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2002, 05:27:40 pm »
I guess part of the problem here is the definition of "Classic Cab".  What is a classic cab?  A Pac-Man cabinet, even without any working hardware, is obviously a classic cab.  Tempest, Tron, Space Invaders, these are easy calls.  But what about bombs like Midnight Resistance?  Is a Super Contra cabinet a classic cab?  What about Neo-Geo cabs, which are as generic as they come?  Is any cab that's been in an actual coin-op environment automatically a classic?  Should I have sought out Super Contra side art to try to restore my cabinet, or was it trash enough to restore as MAME?
--Chris
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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2002, 06:30:59 pm »
Ok my story...I really wanted a classic cab of a game that I really cared about to get the feel I wanted...not easy at all here in the Netherlands...I was lucky and "resqued" a galaxian cab just before it was being trashed. I went out of my way to make the conversion to a mamecab completely reversible. And I did get all the parts so it can be restored to a working fully restored Galaxian. But i know as long as it stays with me this will never happen...I want it as it is now...Emulaxian...

Peter

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2002, 11:12:11 pm »
I think that the RGVAC people are way too serious about their / our hobby.  ( I know many of us mamers have dedicated arcade cabinets too).

I have a friend who does amazing body work with cars. He, however, doesn't restore. He chops and creates something new. I say more power to him.

When it comes to classic cabs, new ones, whatever... you should enjoy it. It's a hobby and you pay for it with $$$ and a lot of your time.

I'm currently working on a Q*bert turning it into a mame machine. At first I was concerned that anyone on this board would find out I was maming a classic. The more I work on it, the less I care. It's mine and I want to do what I want to it.

However, I'm so indoctrinated by the view at RGVAC (and BYOAC) that I still feel the need to justify my modding by saying that I saved this free cabinet from the dumpster when no one else wanted it "for free".

Sorry about the rant, but I'm tired of feeling guilty for having so much fun.

Rocky

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2002, 02:53:25 pm »
Howard_Casto
You seem to know alot about restoring Cabs, and you say its cheap too? if it is, than could you please tell me where I can get an X-Men Children of the Atom sideart? thats the one with Magneto on it.

I think people of RGVAC and BYOAC are trying to achieve the same thing, but RGVAC has a problem with BYOAC people, because of the irreversable damage being done to cabinets that could be restored to their original glory.

Yes we all pay good $$$ for our projects and who are RGVAC People to tell me what to do with my cab.  But if you read what they have to say and look beyond the flames and personal attacks, they do have a point.

I started out with a mission to get/build a Cab for maming to satisify my classic gaming needs, but after doing a lot of reading on both RGVAC and BYOAC, I'm changing my approach a little.

My Cab is a X-Men Children of the Atom converted to a SF Alpha 2.  The conversion was not that bad since only the Capcom B-Board and Marquee were changed.

I have decided to First Restore the Cab to its original X-Men Children of the atom state.

Once it is fully restored, than I will be using Ultimarcs J-Pac to have a co-existing X-Men / Mame Cab without any irreversable side effects.

To Restore my X-Men, I've already found and purchased an X-Men Marquee from E-Bay at a very costly price, and now I'm looking for the Side art so I can remove the damaged side art and repair the dents/chips in the cab and re-paint and apply the side art.

I'm also going to replace the Capcom B Board with the X-Men Game.
Ash: Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand things with alloys and compositions and things with ... molecular structures.

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Re:RGVAC vs. BYOAC????
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2002, 11:34:27 pm »

could you please tell me where I can get an X-Men Children of the Atom sideart? thats the one with Magneto on it.


I got mine from ebay.  I paid $20 with shiping for the pair.

Look around on ebay...I see them all the time on ebay. :)