21" monitor or 25" tv?

[hunky_artist]

hi guys..... still getting details sorted for my new/first/(only?) cab starting soon(ish)

I'm quite happy with the fake scanlines look on a pc monitor, but ive read so many times that using a tv gives a much better look whilst still being easier than an actual arcade monitor.

my problem is this.... i love vector games (asteroids and the like)

are they playable using a tv with s-video? how do they look

thanks  

Darren

[paigeoliver]

are they playable using a tv with s-video? how do they look

thanks  

Darren

They look ... bad.

Tv is ok for horizontal standard res games, but is way off on vertical games, mid res games and vector games. The res of a tv is like 320x240, while vector games are closer to 800x600.

[hunky_artist]

yeah. thats what i thought.... thanks

[goofy]

Is a 27" too big for a cabinet?

[NoOne=NBA=]

I'll second the vote for a monitor, but think they look even worse than just "bad".
They were basically unplayable for me, when I tried it.
You can dumb down a PC monitor to get as bad a picture as you want, but you can't smarten up arcade monitors and TV's.

And the 27" question is a matter of taste.
I don't like that large a monitor for most games because you can't take in the whole screen from a close in playing position, without moving your eyes or head.
I like to be able to see the whole screen and react to whatever I "kinda" see on part of it, while taking in the whole picture at once.
As the screen gets larger, my scores go down.

[Nephus]

I'm still confused about this attitude towards TVs I've seen around here.  I mean, modern TVs are better than the original arcade monitors as far as sharpness and color depth, yet everyone seems to think that TVs or even arcade monitors aren't good enough to play arcade games on.  Seems a little strange.

[hunky_artist]

just vector games we're talking about. Cos to get the close effect of a vector monitor you need razor sharp reolutions

[goofy]

That's a good point on the 27" monitor. I had a feeling it would probably be too big (almost like sitting in the front row at a movie theater). Now, what about a 21", is that alternatively, too small?

Love the input, thanks a ton.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Here's why.

Look at the pictures there.
Notice that the TV and 15kHz monitor pictures are much grainier, and more subject to color bleed than the 30kHz XGA monitor and PC monitor.

You can CREATE that graininess and color bleed on a PC monitor, but you can't get the sharpness necessary to play vector games.

I usually use bilinear filtering on my PC monitor to smooth out the picture the way I think it SHOULD have been in the arcade, rather than going for the TRUE arcade graininess/scanlines look.

Given those limitations, I'll choose the monitor that can do it ALL, rather than one that is good at THIS, but not at THAT.

[paigeoliver]

I'm still confused about this attitude towards TVs I've seen around here.  I mean, modern TVs are better than the original arcade monitors as far as sharpness and color depth, yet everyone seems to think that TVs or even arcade monitors aren't good enough to play arcade games on.  Seems a little strange.

Ah, you are wrong my friend. They are exactly the same, actually the arcade monitors tend to have a higher quality chassis on them. They use the same dang tubes.

[fredster]

I agree.  Monitor is better than TV.

I have an old Mitsubishi Diamondscan monitor.  I love it. The arcade games look good and crisp.  I like them better than the originals . I'm not a purist, I don't like the scan lines.

My friend just finished his cab.  He put in a 25" TV (in a generic midway cab that had run n gun - He's getting a website ready for ya'll) And the TV is okay and all, but he has trouble getting the colors right between games.

It bleeds and has trouble with the resolution.  It's okay, and probably cheaper if you have the setup, but I like my monitor better.  

Plus, compared to mine, the old vector games are really bad. I'm sure there's a technical reason for that based on how the computer converts RGB to NTSC.

[paigeoliver]

Well a vector monitor has a res of around 800x600 (some vector fiend could tell you the exact res, but it is close to that), AND the normal brightness was about 3X that of what a normal monitor was capable of.

[Nephus]

Ah, you are wrong my friend. They are exactly the same, actually the arcade monitors tend to have a higher quality chassis on them. They use the same dang tubes.

an 80's game uses the exact same quality tube of a 2004 tv?  

[paigeoliver]

Well, technically no. The 80s games may have had a higher quality tube as it seems tvs are made incredibly cheaply now.

Tv resolution has not changed since the beginning. When hooking a computer up to a cabinet the signal is getting downscanned and converted and will never look as good as a native signal.

An easy way to try this at home is to hook up a Nes and look at how nice supermario looks. Now hook up your computer and load it on the emulator and see the difference.

[NoOne=NBA=]

My cab has a 21" in it.
I don't think I'd want to go any bigger with as close as the monitor is currently.

If I DID go bigger, I'd want the monitor farther away.

[Nephus]

Tv resolution has not changed since the beginning.  

Well, all I know is that a friend of mine recently bought a 20-something inch TV for $100 that looks sharper than any TV I've ever seen.  My parents replaced their old TV with a new one... same brand and size and it has a significantly sharper image.  You can't sit and tell me that TVs are the same as they were in the 80's when I've seen the improvements with my own eyes.  The simple fact is that you're biased and refuse to give anything else than a CRT computer monitor a chance.

[DarkKobold]

Well, all I know is that a friend of mine recently bought a 20-something inch TV for $100 that looks sharper than any TV I've ever seen.  My parents replaced their old TV with a new one... same brand and size and it has a significantly sharper image.  You can't sit and tell me that TVs are the same as they were in the 80's when I've seen the improvements with my own eyes.  The simple fact is that you're biased and refuse to give anything else than a CRT computer monitor a chance.

Ok, this just irked me. First of all, what you are saying is an opinion, not based on any facts. That signal, that you get through your cable? That hasn't changed since the 80s. (Note, non-HDTV) Do some reading. Now, maybe if you are watching a new "flat" screen crt, with a dvd player and component input, than yes, it will look better. The quality of the chasis for a flat screen may be better. If you go buy a normal rca piece of crap tv, you can easily make it into an arcade monitor.  www.8liners.com

Jeez, if you want help, listen to what they are saying. I say go for a TV, because vector games look like crap on a mame system regardless. Get a real vector game if you love a specific one.

Yeah asteroids!

[Nephus]

It's not opinion.  I don't know the model of the TV, I don't know the manufacturer, I don't know any of the specs, so I can't very well quote them for your amusement.  It was one of the newer flat screen models and running video through svideo connections looked amazing.  Granted, this wasn't exactly the classice tube that we've all seen for years, so that has a lot to do with the difference in picture quality.  In fact, the colors were almost too sharp to an extent (an opinion shared by everyone who's an A/V junkie that's looked at my friend's setup).  It's one of those things that you'd have to have it sitting in front of you to notice, but there is a perceptible difference.  I'm getting one for my arcade system when I finally throw it together and I'll take some high-res photos of it.  Granted, it's still not the same as seeing it yourself, but it should get some people over this strange "tvs aren't good enough" obsession around here.

edit: ok, I didn't actually read all of your post before I flew into this retort, and I now see that you basically said the same thing.  Yeah, cable sucks... digital cable and satelite feeds on the other hand still keep that quality going.  In our usage, a straight svideo feed from a card is going to look amazing.

[spystyle]

"21 inch monitor or 25 inch TV?"

I vote 25 inch TV, what you lack in clarity you gain in size, ease of use and savings.

Honestly, unless you are a videophile you won't mind the difference.

I can respect that many forum fellas are purist, but to me (a non-videophile, non-purist) I find that playing Galaga on my scratch built Pac with 19" GE television is exactly the same as playing it at my local arcade.

In my opinion TV's display is in keeping with arcade monitor's display.

I think the question you have to ask yourself is : How maticulous am I? What's my budget?

Dig it?
Craig

[NoOne=NBA=]

The simple fact is that you're biased and refuse to give anything else than a CRT computer monitor a chance.

I really resent the implications of that remark.

The FACT is that WE (Paige, Oscar, and myself--in this thread, at least) have all researched this independently; and, more importantly, TESTED the alternatives.
Have you even bothered to LOOK at this link I posted earlier from Oscar's website?
If you had, you'd realize that there is no way you can claim that any TV, regardless of the type of signal you send to it, will EVER look as good as a high end arcade monitor, or a PC monitor--unless YOU are biased, and refuse to believe your eyes.

Have you even seen MAME run on a TV?
If you had, you'd realize that a TV is a budget choice.
It has NOTHING else to recommend it, other than price.
As mentioned above, you are dealing with a device that is not designed to display the data sent to it by a computer, and has to have the signal CONVERTED before it is displayed.
That conversion causes the picture to look terrible by comparison, regardless of how nice the picture looks while running a DVD, or how much better it looks than the old worn out one your parents USED to have.

If you want a TV in your cab, get one.
Throw a Pentium 100 in it for all I care.
Just don't invite me over to play on it, and don't try to pass off your opinions as facts here.
We WILL call you on it.


And Kobold,

I don't think ANY of us would argue that a PC monitor offers a better picture on vector games than a vector monitor, but it does offer a GOOD solution.
I also think that it is the best all-around solution, in that I can't afford, nor do I have the ROOM for, all the cabs I'd have to buy to play all the games I want.
Even a dedicated VectorMAME cab is not a viable alternative for me at this point.

I think your post is a bit misleading on the overall quality of picture however.
The TV offers an unplayable (IMO) picture on vector games, the PC monitor offers a slightly degraded, but highly playable picture (as compared to a true vector monitor).
If we were to follow that line of reasoning in other areas, we should all be running 333 Celerons because the 3 Gig systems can't run Blitz.

[daywane]

I have 2 arcade I have built. (not from scratch)
I have a 20" apex TV for the horizontal games
and a 17" gateway PC monitor for my vertical games
I like both.
the 20" TV is as big as I would like to go in my cab because its flat up to the glass and in your face (if you know what I mean) BUT I do not like how I have to use the remote .
first I have to turn the PC on. find the remote (kids have laid it some place other than where it belongs)
turn on the TV, and then change the TV to  S vid
My TV goes to ch #3 at start up.
not a huge problem but some thing I never even thought of when I bought the TV. I paid $200.00 for it.
Cheaper at that time for TVs than PC monitors

My vertical cab the monitor button is on and pluged into the same button PC is in. I hit one button and everything comes on . done deal. much better
also 19" monitors are $200.00 dollars now . Wal mart and office max has them at this price.
(do not take a compact car to get it )  thy do not fit in the door or the trunk   I found out the hard way.

I do not know about arcade monitors yet. I have 2 but they are hooked up in a Nintendo VS uni system and are still real arcades. I plan on turning them that into a mame cab some time soon but I think nintendo monitors are a different breed of monitors. (nintendo loves to be different)  

Preview - Re:21" monitor or 25" TV?  

[hunky_artist]

thanks guys

[Sylentwulf]

Some TV's will power back on by themselves, and back to the same video input. So you CAN still have a one button machine that goes straight to the correct setting, like a PC monitor would.

I think what people above are trying to say above today's TV's being the same a TV's from 20 years ago, is that the TUBES are the same. The electronics, signals, and overall quality of the "board" inside are MUCH better, so even through a coax input, todays TV's will LOOK better than 80's TVs.

BUT, if you used the same board, input, and video source, and connected it to a TUBE from today versus 20 years ago, they would both looks the same.

[Nephus]

Have you even bothered to LOOK at this link I posted earlier from Oscar's website?
If you had, you'd realize that there is no way you can claim that any TV, regardless of the type of signal you send to it, will EVER look as good as a high end arcade monitor, or a PC monitor--unless YOU are biased, and refuse to believe your eyes.

ok, I'm in a hurry to get somewhere, so I'll just hit on this one.  Yes, I've been to that site long before I ever started hanging out on here.  There is not an example of the type of tube used in the TV I'm talking about there.  Nor is there an example of using one (since it's not there) with an svideo connection or component connection for superior clarity.  You can act all high and mighty, but the fact is... you don't have any comparisons of the type of setup I'm talking about to throw around with anything else.  Yes, I have looked, and I know quite a bit more than you're giving me credit for.  I'd also like to point out that the link you gave only shows one type of video card for all of those.  It's not a good example to try and base your entire argument on.  I think you should do some research into proper testing methods to see how bad of an idea that is before using that as the foundation for any debate.

[spystyle]

In TV's defense, I think Jakobud's cab has a TV in it :)

Even one of the arcade gawds can dig it :)

Craig

[MiKman]

Have you even bothered to LOOK at this link I posted earlier from Oscar's website?
If you had, you'd realize that there is no way you can claim that any TV, regardless of the type of signal you send to it, will EVER look as good as a high end arcade monitor, or a PC monitor--unless YOU are biased, and refuse to believe your eyes.

ok, I'm in a hurry to get somewhere, so I'll just hit on this one.  Yes, I've been to that site long before I ever started hanging out on here.  There is not an example of the type of tube used in the TV I'm talking about there.  Nor is there an example of using one (since it's not there) with an svideo connection or component connection for superior clarity.  You can act all high and mighty, but the fact is... you don't have any comparisons of the type of setup I'm talking about to throw around with anything else.  Yes, I have looked, and I know quite a bit more than you're giving me credit for.  I'd also like to point out that the link you gave only shows one type of video card for all of those.  It's not a good example to try and base your entire argument on.  I think you should do some research into proper testing methods to see how bad of an idea that is before using that as the foundation for any debate.

I too think a better video card would achieve much better results with a TV.  but thats just my opinion.  My Crappy 27" RCA with an ATI Rage pro looks heads and tails better than those pictures on Oscars website using the geforce 4 MX and the toshiba tv.  And I'm not one for the blockiness that you get using a computer monitor anyhow.  If you are a purist then thats not how I remember the games looking (all blocky) in the arcade.  They looked much closer to the results on my TV where a slight antialiased look is created.

Just my 2

[BarontheFirst]

That's a good point on the 27" monitor. I had a feeling it would probably be too big (almost like sitting in the front row at a movie theater). Now, what about a 21", is that alternatively, too small?

Love the input, thanks a ton.

I say a 27" monitor or TV is great if you have a 4 player layout. Also a nice bonus for some of the shooting and sport games. It is a matter of taste and what games you want to play that will help decide what you end up using!

[GMZombie]

ok here is my opinion with the tv vs arcade monitor. first off i dont think it is the tv's fault as much as everybody thinks. granted tv's only do 320x240 or whatever it is but i have ported to a tv once. i played on it and i found that it is only as good as your video card can handle a tv out function. all graphics cards and ive seen alot of them....all of them are not good with video out. they were never designed for that type of use. Now if you can do what this guy did with his TV
http://www.porkrind.org/arcade/cocktail/index.html
He says and shows kinda how he did his hack. On the alternative you can always and i repeat always get a monitor chassis from www.GENAO.com . Their monitor chassis's are great and will convert any tv tube 13-27" to a arcade monitor with exellent results. i know as i have bought one already and am fixing to buy a 25" one now as i have 2 perfect tubes right now. the chassis's run from i think 60 dollars for the 13/19" to 110 for the 25/27". they are way cheaper than a original arcade monitor with cause you can usually get a tv tube for free from your local tv repair shop. so my feeling on this is if you have to go with the monitor but if you want a bigger screen and have a little bit of cash to blow get the 25" chassis and you'll really have some fun. of course this is my opinion and doesnt reflect the opinions of anybody else. legal disclaimer Done...lol

[NoOne=NBA=]

There is not an example of the type of tube used in the TV I'm talking about there.  Nor is there an example of using one (since it's not there) with an svideo connection or component connection for superior clarity.

So hook up an S-video lead to your mom's TV, and tell us if YOU can play Asteroids Deluxe with full artwork on it, better than you can on a PC monitor.
THAT is the entire discussion here.
Nobody is saying that you CAN'T use a TV for a cabinet, just that the picture quality is not as good by comparison, and will NOT play vector games.



How's this for great research?

Has ANYBODY here EVER used ANY video card that looks BETTER on a TV via ANY means of connection while playing ANY vector based game than the same video card does using ANY decent PC monitor?

[hunky_artist]

So hook up an S-video lead to your mom's TV, and tell us if YOU can play Asteroids Deluxe with full artwork on it, better than you can on a PC monitor.

THAT is the entire discussion here.

Nobody is saying that you CAN'T use a TV for a cabinet, just that the picture quality is not as good by comparison, and will NOT play vector games.

And that is why I made this thread... and it has been answered, thanks guys. I have learned that I need a computer monitor as i LOVE vector games.

so you can all quit arguing now and go home, lol

[NoOne=NBA=]

I wasn't arguing.
I was refuting misleading information, and opinion being passed off as fact.
We need facts, based on research, to answer questions like this properly.

If the facts aren't properly defended, we will have alot of people mad because we are giving them bad information.
THAT is the reason we tend to be so rabid when it comes to posts that are not fact based.

As a case in point, one fact that alot of people seemed to miss in Oscar's monitor post is that he was INTENTIONALLY trying to make the pictures look as blocky as possible to eliminate any smoothing that is normally performed by the computer itself from interfering with the results.

He had all anti-aliasing, bilinear filtering, and filter effects (scanlines, hardware stretching, etc...) turned OFF while displaying those pictures.
There were posts mixed in there that "my video card looks alot better on my TV".
That is almost definitely a true statement.
Oscar wasn't tweaking his rig to look it's best on each monitor, etc... he was showing a comparison between the monitors on as CLEAN a signal as he could get.