Alternative section of BYOAC

[Dave_K.]

Well I almost fell off my chair when I read Saint's latest updates.  A new "Alternatives" section with (gasp!) console adapters!?  Could this be true? Could BYOAC actually acknowledge the fact that people use consoles and not just Mame in their cabinets!?

Nope.  Going to the section shows how to connect console joysticks to your PC!  No bias towards PC/MAME arcade controls on this site I tell ya!

-Dave
(sorry for the sarcasm)

[saint]

Well, actually the same old section that's always been there just cleaned up.  There's no particular bias, the whole purpose of this web site was interfacing arcade controls to computers.  That's the roots of the site (http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_welcome.html)

That said, there have been stabs at a broader field of info... Such as this page:  http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_dreamcast.shtml ...

We can only document what we know or what someone submits however.  If you have something you'd like to submit on hooking up arcade controls to consoles I'd be happy to put it up.    

I'm curious what in particular you're looking for though.  A lot of what's on the site applies to hacking game console pads for game consoles as well as using them for PCs...  If you can hack apart a PSX pad then you can plug it into a PSX as well as a PC...  

Anyway, we're always open to suggestions.

--- saint

Well I almost fell off my chair when I read Saint's latest updates.  A new "Alternatives" section with (gasp!) console adapters!?  Could this be true? Could BYOAC actually acknowledge the fact that people use consoles and not just Mame in their cabinets!?

Nope.  Going to the section shows how to connect console joysticks to your PC!  No bias towards PC/MAME arcade controls on this site I tell ya!

-Dave
(sorry for the sarcasm)

[Dave_K.]

I know the roots of this site (I was there during the days of Dave's Video Game Classics board).

But times change, and when I got my Dreamcast in 99, I hacked it to my arcade cabinet and found a nice compliment to the classic gaming expierence.   Since then I've made numerous suggestions to add a "console" section to this site.  I even offered content for Dreamcast video hacking.  The response (from Tom at the time) was that he was working on a Dreamcast page (you mentioned it below) and  didn't need any more content.  That page never got linked into the site (is it even linked now??).

So I guess I've had a small chip on my shoulder since then, and like to poke fun at "Build Your Own PC Controls" from time to time when people ask console questions.

Maybe if I get a free weekend, I'll try putting together some information again (as long as it really goes into the site this time).

-Dave  

[Howard_Casto]

Actually times don't change.....

Although there is a minority of people making console-based cabs, the best way to put mame in a cab is still via the pc.  The dreamcast and others are still good for the very old classics, but are simply too puny to run any of the more modern arcade games.  I'm not saying that it's a bad alternative, I'm just saying compared to a real pc the dc is a toy as far as emulation is concerned.  

Now with that being said... the xbox might be the exception... it's specs are so similar to a pc's that mame and other emulators actually behave like they would on a 700 mhz pc. (The specs of the xbox.)

But anyway, taking all of that into account, what exactly would you suggest for a console section?  There is currently only two methods to interface arcade controls to a console.  

#1 hack a gamepad (which is already covered in the alternatives section and is pretty much universal to any controller.)

# 2 buy a x-arcade (which doesn't require any building and would be jsut a link)  

Video hacking has never been a major topic here even though there is a monitor forum for troubleshooting.  If you look on the monitors page it's mostly concering wiring a arcade monitor to the pc.   I've never heard of anyone hacking the dc or any of the other systems to work on an arcade monitor and the tv/vga options are farily self-explanitory in thoses cases.  

That was a rather stupid remark about hooking console joysticks to your pc.  As I said the only way you can hook arcade controls to the console is to hack a pad (which is covered) and plug it in to the console. (i hope to god you can figure out how to plug in a controller)

I'm not trying to start a flame war but there are quite obvious reasons why those suggested topics aren't covered.  I just wanted to point some of them out to you.  Not to mention what saint said, namely if you don't write it, it can't be posted.  What this tells me is there simply isn't enough interest in console cabs for people to actually write anything on them.  

[Dave_K.]

Howard, I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective (or maybe my rants were not clear).  My interest in using a console in a cabinet is certainly NOT for Mame emulation.  And the point is that this site (properly named "Build your own ARCADE controls") shouldn't be restricted to interfaces for Mame/PC alone.  Its about (more generically) recreating the arcade expierence at home.  So why can't this apply to consoles as well?

Now with the advent of the (now defunct) Dreamcast, we were seeing MODERN arcade games ported to a console.  And THIS made a perfect complement to the classic Mame expierence.  This is what I ment by "times a changing", we now have more options to explore in regards to the home arcade expierence (besides just Mame).   And I think a site such as this should be flexable enough to offer people a wider choice of arcade expierences.

Ok with that out of the way, I'll proceed to your other comments.  

So you've never herd of anyone hacking a console to work on an arcade monitor?  Are you serious!? :-)  I've answered plenty of people (in the forums and through email) on this site about hacking the VGA box for 15khz output.  And plenty of more BYOACers have hacked consoles into their cabinets!  And do you think hacking the Xbox or Gamecube for VGA or RGB is easy...think again.

Ah...console pad hacking.  Yes the old PSX pads are indeed just like most PC pads, and the hack is essentially the same.  But the PS2, Xbox, Gamecube pads is a totally different story.
There have been lots of discussion on hacking analog controls.  Are you saying nobody will be interested in this content?? Now before you bring this discussion down the rats hole of "console games with analog support don't translate well to an arcade panel", well I offer you this: most people don't care about playing every single console game on cabinets...but I sure would like to play VF4, Tekken 4, Soul Calibur 1 and 2, (and so on) on my arcade cabinet.  Are you saying nobody else shares this interest?  How about PJ ranting that he would like to play Grand Turismo 3 in his sit down cabinet?  What kind of analog steering control options are their for consoles?

Ok I think I've pretty much made my case in that YES there is still a lot of interest in content on Consoles which would be a welcome addition to this site.  If you go back and re-read my previous post, you would see that I indeed tried to submit content awhile back...and who knows if other people did also.  The fact that nothing was ever posted to the site could have detered people from contributing further.  So don't go writing this off as something nobody is interested in.  Honestly Howard, I can't believe you would write such flame bait.  Now lets kiss and make up, shall we?  

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

I can't respond to all of your comments so let me just make my point of view clear.  

Arcade sticks are best suited for arcade games ONLY.  Not, console ports of arcade games, not pc games.  That's why they are used only in the arcade, and there has never been a successful commercial arcade stick for a console.

I'm not saying that means anything, I'm just saying that arcade sticks are intended to be used with arcade games, and right now the only way to get a truely arcade perfect experience is through mame or other similar emulators.  The arcade ports are really close, but they still aren't perfect.  

This site is huge and expansive as is.  I think the type of hacking you are talking about would merit a whole website, not just a section as not only is it a different type of project, but it's a totally different community.  

Btw modern arcade games suck.  Ok I said it.. let the flames begin.

[Dave_K.]

Arcade sticks are best suited for arcade games ONLY.  Not, console ports of arcade games, not pc games.  That's why they are used only in the arcade, and there has never been a successful commercial arcade stick for a console.

So why is that that every 3rd party manufacturer of console pads makes a fighter/arcade joystick?

I'm not saying that means anything, I'm just saying that arcade sticks are intended to be used with arcade games, and right now the only way to get a truely arcade perfect experience is through mame or other similar emulators.  The arcade ports are really close, but they still aren't perfect.  

Ok, I think there is still some mis-communication going on here.  When I talk about arcade ports to console I am NOT talking about the Namco Classics CD (with PacMan and DigDug).  I'm talking about Tekken, Marvel v.s. Capcom, Soul Calibur...  These ports have in most cases been BETTER than the original arcade versions...for example Soul Calibur got a major graphics upgrade during the port and Tekken got new game modes.

This site is huge and expansive as is.  I think the type of hacking you are talking about would merit a whole website, not just a section as not only is it a different type of project, but it's a totally different community.  

Woah partner, don't draw that dotted line so quickly.  There are plenty of people on BYOAC asking questions about consoles.  I think it would be nice to have a FAQ and Section on the topic (mostly to avoid the numerous newbie questions).  How this info integrates with the rest of the site is up to debate (since the site was built on the house of Mame).

Btw modern arcade games suck.  Ok I said it.. let the flames begin.

I sense someone gets schooled regularly when he goes down to the local arcade nowadays.    [just joking]  Debating the merits of modern arcade games (and console games for that matter) is a completely different topic.  But don't poo-poo on the idea of adding console content to this site just because you don't like 'em.

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, I think there is still some mis-communication going on here.  When I talk about arcade ports to console I am NOT talking about the Namco Classics CD (with PacMan and DigDug).  I'm talking about Tekken, Marvel v.s. Capcom, Soul Calibur...  These ports have in most cases been BETTER than the original arcade versions...for example Soul Calibur got a major graphics upgrade during the port and Tekken got new game modes.

Exactly my point, so these games are not arcade games, they are new games based on an arcade game.  For me that is a definate no no.  


Oh and btw, I haven't been to a local arcade since around 93.  Innovation stopped around then and it's been downhill from there, with a few noteable exceptions.  

And people ask console questions here because there isn't another site.  The normal byoac'ers and the old timers of the site don't mess with consoles that much.  Once again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with consoles, I just think it would be better suited on it's own site.  

Hacking arcade controls to run on consoles is a different mentality.  To hack them to a pc for mame and other emus, you are trying to preserve an arcade gaming experience by playing true arcade games.  

Console hacking boggles my mind quite frankly... it's like those guys who used to hack snes's with arcade controls.  What exactly is the point?  You have maybe a handful of games that will play well with those controls and really those games are still in the arcade, so you should really go there, spend some cash and support a dying era, that of the arcade.    

[Dave_K.]

Its clear we both have very different opinions on what constitutes an "arcade" game.  But this is "Build Your Own Arcade Controls"...and not a Mame preservation society website.  The point here is to help people build arcade style controls/cabinets for their enjoyment at home.  Believe it or not, but some people want to run more than just Mame in their cabinets (like MP3 Jukeboxs, and watch movies).  Are you going to condem them as well?   I for one (being an "old time BYOACer") would like to expierence something new and bring home TODAY'S modern arcade games as a compliement to classic emulated games.  After all, today's modern games may turn into tomorrows classics.  I believe this opinion is more than just a "minority" (as you put it) in the BYOAC community.

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

Its clear we both have very different opinions on what constitutes an "arcade" game.  But this is "Build Your Own Arcade Controls"...and not a Mame preservation society website.  The point here is to help people build arcade style controls/cabinets for their enjoyment at home.  Believe it or not, but some people want to run more than just Mame in their cabinets (like MP3 Jukeboxs, and watch movies).  Are you going to condem them as well?   I for one (being an "old time BYOACer") would like to expierence something new and bring home TODAY'S modern arcade games as a compliement to classic emulated games.  After all, today's modern games may turn into tomorrows classics.  I believe this opinion is more than just a "minority" (as you put it) in the BYOAC community.

-Dave

There's not such thing as "todays" arcade games.  The arcade is dead.  All that's left are racing sims and gun games.  A true arcade game hasn't been released in quite a while.  Those few that have are a pitiful attempt by programmers to make a few extra bucks off of their console game before it's released for a home market.  The problem I have with them is they are console games... even in the arcade they feel like a consoel game to me.  That's not a bad thing, that just tells me that I should wait until it comes out for the xbox, ect and play it on it, with the console controller, as it was intended.(regardless of the bs they try to tell you about it being an arcade port.)  

I don't know where jukeboxes and media players got into this discussion.  What do they have to do with this?  They aren't games and thus gameplay isn't an issue.  My objection to console games on arcade panels is the crippleing effects this has to gameplay. They don't "feel" right.  There are a very few exceptions but this is just in general.  

But that isn't the point anyway... there still isn't enough relevant info to put on a page anyway.  Video pinouts?  
lik-sang has ntsc to pal/vga/rgb out and they are only 30$
Controls on a console?
Buy a pad and hack it.  
Analog hacking?  
Well no one has done it yet, but if someone can I assure you that the info will be equally applicable to pc setups and it will be posted here anyway.  

See that's basically it, so why are we arguing anyway?

[Dave_K.]

There's not such thing as "todays" arcade games.  The arcade is dead..... My objection to console games on arcade panels is the crippleing effects this has to gameplay. They don't "feel" right.  There are a very few exceptions but this is just in general.  

I disagree with you here.  I also think how a console game "feels" in an arcade cabinet is quite subjective.   Just because you have a stigma against them doesn't mean everyone else does.  I think we should table this topic for another discussion thread.  I wonder if we should move this discussion to the main board so the rest of the community could contribute their opinions as well?

But that isn't the point anyway... there still isn't enough relevant info to put on a page anyway.  Video pinouts?  
lik-sang has ntsc to pal/vga/rgb out and they are only 30$
Controls on a console?
Buy a pad and hack it.  
Analog hacking?
Well no one has done it yet, but if someone can I assure you that the info will be equally applicable to pc setups and it will be posted here anyway.  

Thats funny when just before you said "I think the type of hacking you are talking about would merit a whole website"

I don't understand why you are trying to trivialize this.  People are asking for this information on the main boards everyday!Just because we aren't dealing with a PC doesn't mean its childs play.  For example, there is a world of difference between the cheap upscan/converters Lik-Sang sells and what you can hack a console to do natively.  I'd rather NOT see a blurry/shaking picture on my cabinet thankyou.

Hacking pads has gotten a lot more difficult with the advent of analog controls. I see no PC joypad as complex as the Dual Shock, Xbox, or Gamecube pads.  So nobody in the PC/Mame world is going to bother hacking them (or care for that matter since a majority of Mame games use simple digital controls).

I think there is enough info worthy of an entire section on this site.  I've started putting together content myself and hope to submit it to Saint within a week or so.

See that's basically it, so why are we arguing anyway?

I really don't see this as an argument...but more a discussion on the pros/cons of console arcade games (and the worthyness of console content on BYOAC).

-Dave

[tom61]

Ah...console pad hacking.  Yes the old PSX pads are indeed just like most PC pads, and the hack is essentially the same.  But the PS2, Xbox, Gamecube pads is a totally different story.
There have been lots of discussion on hacking analog controls.  Are you saying nobody will be interested in this content??

Like most things, we'll link to it if you post a website about it. It may take awhile for it to be linked, depending on where it is decided to be linked. (The example page is database driven, and easy to update. Most other pages have to be manually edited, and therefore take longer.)

I even offered content for Dreamcast video hacking.  The response (from Tom at the time) was that he was working on a Dreamcast page (you mentioned it below) and  didn't need any more content.  That page never got linked into the site (is it even linked now??).

You're pee'ved about something that took place 3+ years ago? Alot has changed since then.

OK, here's the story of the Dreamcast page:
I had just gotten a Dreamcast for my birthday a month or less before. I was starting to hack it, order adapters and the like, when Saint posts the frequently requested Dreamcast page pretty much out of the blue. I decided I'd take it under my wing, since Saint didn't even have a Dreamcast (and still doesn't have as far as I know). I corrected some of the misinformation (like having to buy a $300+ adapter to use on an arcade monitor), and added some stuff I had found out (like the Total Control 2 adapters). I had planned to complete the page as I completed hooking up my Dreamcast to my cabinet. Check out my site http://www.iland.net/~tom61 dealing with my progress on hacking consoles to my cab. The last update I made was saying that I've had zero luck with hacking consoles to my arcade cab. The only thing I've really done towards the group of information for console hacking, is finding out not all SCART cables are the same, and are not good for hacking with Dreamcast.

Eventually CD_vision's site popped up, he had actually hacked the controllers to arcade controls! I started forwarding people to that site, since it beat the theory I had. Soon other people hacked Dreamcasts to arcade controls, and what little I had became mostly redundant. Then the PC2Jamma site added the DC2Jamma section which had pretty all the info needed, including how to hack L and R on (analog) an official controller to push buttons, and Dreancast to arcade monitor. I abandoned the page completely after that.

Dave_k:As far as when you emailed me, if it was not long after the creation of the page, I was sorting through and figuring out how to apply a great amount of information I had gotten (like a page on how to use 8 way joysticks on Hall-Effect and potentiometer based arcade games). If all you were giving was theory, I probably wasn't interested too much, since I already had too much theory, and not enough application (actually getting stuff to work with Dreamcast).

I hope that explains everything. Since there seems to be alot of interest in console hacking I'll see if I can coax some people from Dreamcast Emulation (which has a dedicated Dreamcast hacking and console repairing board) and Consolevision (a site dedicated to pretty much every console) to help.

[Dave_K.]

Tom, there is no need to explain anything.  I do not hold grudges (certainly for this long) .  I was merely disappointed not only that my DC hacking info never made it to the site, but that the entire DC page never even made it to the site.  It felt like BYOAC was not interested in consoles at all.  That's the "small" chip on my shoulder.  This thread started out just as sarcarsm when I read some info on console pads being posted to the Alternatives section.

I don't fault you personally.  I never (and still don't) have a website with which to host my own content.  So I sent you an email stating how to hack a VGA box for hooking your DC to an arcade monitor (a much simpler solution than what dc2jamma posted on his site about hacking a scart cable with lm1881 circuit).  I wanted a little credit for coming up with the idea first (and have it posted to BYOAC).  I understand if you didn't have time to pull all the info together.

Anyway that was the past.  All I wanted to find out now was if console info was still "welcome" on BYOAC.  Thats why I started stirring the pot with this thread.

I would be more than happy to contribute what I know on the topic if its welcome  (and Saint answered that in his response).  I started pulling some content together and hope to submit it to you/saint in a week or so.

-Dave

[Dave_K.]

Ok I just emailed you guys a boat load of content on consoles to arcade controls (in an easy to digest format).  You don't have to do much if any html editing...so no excuses this time  .

-Dave

[saint]

Dave - please resend?  I can't find the email.  Hoping to get some time for the FAQ this weekend...  Thank!

Scratch that - found the address you sent it to.  Thanks!

Ok I just emailed you guys a boat load of content on consoles to arcade controls (in an easy to digest format).  You don't have to do much if any html editing...so no excuses this time  .

-Dave

[Dave_K.]

Hey Saint, you reading your emails (on siredgar?)  Still awaiting the page to get linked...everything looks good.

-Dave

[Dave_K.]

Just a friendly reminder that the new console section still hasn't been linked into the site navigation.  Its been a month since Saint's major move at work was completed (and two months since I submitted the html content) so whats the hold up?  Someone might start thinking that all his hard work was for nothing (yet again)   .

For reference, here is the page:
http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_consoles.shtml

[planetjay]

saint's still real busy.

[Dave_K.]

[deleted]