Consensus on MAME sens. for Marble M. with Atari 3" TB to match real arcade?

[TheManuel]

I have visited the BYOAC "Spinner Counts" (includes trackball info) very frequently recently, read Ken Toad's post with his recommended settings, and seen multiple other posts, but trackball sensitivity settings are not as clear-cut as spinners'.

I use a ~22 year-old Beston Imperial 3" trackball in my cab, but I mentioned the Hap Atari trackball in the subject, because that seems to be much more common here.  The Betson trackball has the same 167 ct/revolution resolution as the Hap ball, so any settings are applicable to both.

I have the sensitivity set to 100% in MAME currently, but I can't help feel like it is too responsive.  I haven't played that game on a real arcade for over 30 years, so I have no real recollection of what it should feel like, but I vaguely remember back then having to work harder on the trackball to get the marble moving. The typical answer to this is to set the sensitivity to whatever feels right for me, which is sensible, but in this case my goal is to recreate the original sensitivity, if possible.

Has anybody who owns the original machine and happens to have a MAME setup with a Hap 3" trackball (or one of equal resolution) ever reported what sensitivity seems to match the real hardware?

Regards.

[TheManuel]

I just got home and tried playing at 50%, and it's practically unplayable. Aside from making my shoulder sore after just one game, I basically could not build enough momentum to go uphill at the end of stage 3, after overshooting the ramp down to the goal because I could not reverse enough to stop.  It is also very hard or perhaps impossible to get passed the suction nozzles at the end of stage 4.  I certainly don't remember it being that horrible in the arcades.

Perhaps the answer is indeed 100% or somewhere in the middle, but if 50% is what matches the original, then my quest for arcade parity will be at an end.  I'd be nice just to know.

[Xiaou2]

I just got home and tried playing at 50%, and it's practically unplayable. Aside from making my shoulder sore after just one game, I basically could not build enough momentum to go uphill at the end of stage 3, after overshooting the ramp down to the goal because I could not reverse enough to stop.  It is also very hard or perhaps impossible to get passed the suction nozzles at the end of stage 4.  I certainly don't remember it being that horrible in the arcades.

Perhaps the answer is indeed 100% or somewhere in the middle, but if 50% is what matches the original, then my quest for arcade parity will be at an end.  I'd be nice just to know.

 I believe the Original Machine uses a 2.5" Trackball.

 Also, Im not sure if the Rollers on 2.5" Trackballs, are the same as 3" Trackballs.   Different Roller diameters,
can change the  "Gearing Ratios".    The ball size difference, will also change the Ratios.

 Think of the ball, and rollers, like actual 2D Toothed Gears.  A larger gear (ball),  and a small gear (Roller)
In fact, there may be other factors too... like the Diameter of the Optical Wheels that are being used to track the ball.
AND... the rate and type of Polling / Tracking, due to the Electronics, and Spacing of the Spokes/Holes.


 As far as Fatigue Goes... a  3"  Trackball will always be FAR more Fatiguing to roll, compared to smaller trackball.
You have a difference in Mass, and Momentum Effects.  It will take more effort to get it spinning fast.. and more
effort to slow / stop / reverse the fast spinning ball.

 Ive played an Original Atari XO football arcade machine... that used massive 5" ?  Trackballs.  After about 3 minutes worth
of Play... I was DRENCHED in Sweat.  It was extremely fatiguing and physical.  But... it was also a much more Interesting
experience.   It was almost simulating what it would have been like, to actually RUN the ball, on the Field.


 Now... as Far as I remember Marble Madness in the Arcades (a VERY VERY long time ago)... the sensitivity was always on
the LOW side of things.  It took a LOT of high speed spinning, to get that Marble to Accelerate quickly.  This is why the game
has so Few Levels... and yet, is Incredibly Difficult... to the point where very few people ever even made it past the 3rd stage.
The timings are extremely Tight, too  (and getting tripped up by any Baddies, or Cliff Edges.. makes things worse, of course).

 The game was still very Physically fatiguing, even with the smaller sized Trackballs.   Just nowhere near as fatiguing, as with
larger sized trackballs.


 All in all, this is a very good example, of why we really should have a far more Detailed Account of Arcade Controllers.
With the correct Dimensions, people could potentially 3D Print (most parts) arcade accurate controllers... and be able to
experience the EXACT arcade controller Precision, as the REAL Arcade machines.

 Without the proper controllers... you are merely Guessing the resolutions / settings... and could be making the games too
easy, and or too hard.

 And in other cases... there are special Arcade controllers, that are extremely Unique... compared to other mechanical
designs.  This can effect Feel, Control, Resolution, Friction levels, and much more.   And in certain cases... a game
might never play "correctly" without knowing how the real controller was constructed.

 One rare prototype machine, was unplayable... until someone with a rare controller, detailed its construction... and the
retro arcade was able to re-create their own version of it, using 3D printed parts.  That machine would have been
utterly Useless without that Critical Controller Knowledge.   Also, I dont even think there was a manual for the controller,
either (not that it would have helped much... because the manuals dont provide detailed dimension... and even
their construction drawings can be difficult to tell what is actually being seen.. unless you own an actual physical
device to compare against).


 Anyway... you might find some arcade footage... and or make your own by finding a machine, and recording the
control panel + Monitor... as you spin the ball.   Use a Pencil or Marker to mark the ball, to get an idea of ball-spins per
Marble Movement.

 And you will have to decide if you want to use the Heavier and Larger ball  vs   Use an Original Sized trackball set.
Otherwise, if you choose to use larger sized / heavier balls... then you may have to alter the settings, to reduce
the physicality.


 There is one other factor... and that is in the WAY that you roll the ball.  You want to use BOTH of your hands,
quickly alternating palms, to get maximum spin.  Keep your palm as Close to the ball as possible... rather than
lifting your hands too far up into the air... right after you have finished a spin with one (smaller circles, rather than
large circles).


 Finally... I believe there was also an Arcade Cheat... If you were playing with a single player.  I believe you
were able to Roll BOTH balls at the same time... to get a Boost in Speed.   Im not sure it this is accurate information...
AND... Im not sure if MAME has the same Behavior, either.


EDIT...

 Actually, there is one more factor at play.   Controller Depth.

 The real machine had plenty of Space for your to extend your hands, as you rolled the ball around.
If you have a Cramped Control panel.. with nearby Joysticks...
And or... if your Monitor is too Close to the Trackball...

Then you are probably using very Short Strokes / Partial Rolls.   As such, you might not be able to
get the Full potential Acceleration potentials.. due to using shorter strokes, and many more "Switches".

 Similar to Trying to Row a Rowboat...  Where as instead of using the full stroke of the paddles... you are
limited to HALF the Range.  This would mean, you would need to use twice as many strokes, to get the
same level of speed / acceleration.  However, every time you have to lift the paddle out of the water,
you are losing speed/time... (as well as adding additional Friction)

[TheManuel]

Thank you for the detailed response!  Very good points there to chew on.

I should point out that the original MM arcade trackball was 3" without a doubt.  See page 36 of this pdf of the original operator's manual from KLOV.

I'm happy with the physical trackball I have, and since mine is what back in the day (perhaps still) folks were derisively referring to as a "frankenpanel", I do have enough space around the trackball to work it without hitting other features.  Ultimately, I'm just trying to establish what the baseline is to match the original experience, and if it is too fatiguing, perhaps adjust a bit from there.

I completely agree with you that the best way to compare would be to find a real machine.  Next time I travel I'll be on the lookout for those museums that are still around with the old machines.

Go frankenpanels!!