Adjusting Horizontal Width (Porches) & Mame

[abstract3000]

Greetings,

I will post this more particular question in this sub forum as it makes more sense then carrying in the CRT Section.

I Currently am using a Chinese Adapter with CRT Emudriver to Component from VGA on CRT Emudriver(The Setup) I am waiting for the nicer converter to arrive from New Zealand but this is what I have for the time being.

This is what I have experienced: If using VMMaker and EDID Emulation The screen shows up but I have absolutely no ability to change any sort of resolution whatsoever in this mode, also Switch Res Refuses to work and will force it to 640*480. If I skip the EDID Emulation use Arcade OSD set an interlacing Resolution with EDID Emulation disabled I can carry the connection to the monitor and adjust the resolutions editing them as I please with Vertical and horizontal Geometry.

So when adjusting these Settings they effect the Windows environments and Applications, but they however do NOT effect MAME, Mame acts as if it doesn't recognize the software changes. So I get into the Service mode of the TV, and am able to correct the Vertical Synch/Positioning however the Only Horizontal setting I have is to move the picture to the left or to the right. So I went ahead with Bubble Bobble up as it have very clearly defined borders and I centered in the menu the best I could, and it works. Though my concern is the "Entire" width of the screen in larger than is being presented (overscan) probably like 10 to 20 pixels either side.

So I guess my concern is what is involved into reducing the width of the Mame so it will fit within the Screen? Is that typically Arcade OSD, is that editing the values manually in the Arcade 15.7 Mode and if so What is Arcade OSD doing differently when you adjust the geometry? Is it the Adapter I have and the colorspace and resolutions it permits that's hindering me? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what is going on and how this would typically handled.

Thanks!

[buttersoft]

First of all, please enable EDID emulation, and then open ArcadeOSD and take a screenshot of the list of resolutions and post it up.

Second, when you have set a mode correctly for your screen, get the timings for it while still in ArcadeOSD (might be able to copy modeline to clipboard?) then enter those timings into mame.ini under the relevant values for the crt_range0 line.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,165311.msg1744004.html#msg1744004

I'm on my tablet, or would just cut and paste from there, but that link has the info you want

[abstract3000]

Thanks for the Reply

here is the ARCADE OSD With EDID Emulation Turned On


When EDID Emulation is Turned "Off" I have I think 120 Modes to Select in that Screen.

Thanks for the Article, I did every Step verbatim of that Guide. Except I loaded the user modes super ini on my LCD monitor prior to going into EDID Emulation. So for the hell of it, I went back put it in EDID Emulation mode selected the super user ini, pointed to the MAME exe, generated the user modes then installed the 120 modes again and it appears I now have all the modes in EDID Emulation mode now to choose from (So my order of operations was incorrect)


I mentioned in my initial post about settings needed to be taken and configured in Arcade 15.7 Sheet as I have spent a few weeks on this prior to posting reading what I could and I have seen that Discussed. I just wasn't understanding their was a much different correlation between VMMaker and Arcade OSD when in Emulation opposed to that mode being disabled.

So then I have this Question for you then. When it comes to Making the Geometry Adjustments to copy for the Arcade 15.7 Mode lines, does it Matter which Resolution you are making those adjustments to? does it need to be the 640*480 or if say 768*496 looks better could you make the Same adjustments in that Resolution? Also When you are looking at the Geometry Screen in the background, is the purpose to get the White Edges of the Picture to fit within the Screen or the Diagonal Lines to terminate in all 4 corners?


 

[buttersoft]

The timings will be similar for different modes because with a CRT the time it takes to draw a line and the time it takes to draw a field are fixed, if different from one another, regardless of how many pixels or lines are in the line or field/frame. But, the more total pixels in one line (or lines in one field) the more granular the adjustments can be. 1/480 is smaller than 1/240, if you follow.

That said, try a few different video modes and see what fits best, noting that most old arcade games will be using 240p and if that's what you're running mostly, that mode should be given more weight.

[abstract3000]

Well this has been less than fun adjusting but think i got something finally worked out but now trying to figure out how to reduce the modes. Apparently an older non GUI version of VMMaker allowed you to select how many modes specifically, now when i click generate modes and Install the modes Its always 120.

I tried extracting the modes to file deleting a bunch and then reloading the modes by file but that didn't really do all that much just picked up the Super Resolutions is all it seemed. So how do i go about reducing that 120 to 99? (Hyperspin will not run with 100+ Modes)

EDIT: I figured it out, in the vmm.ini file change total_modes from "auto" to 80 and it works, Gonna keep inching that number up and testing to see where it finally cuts off, I know it does not work with 90 so somewhere between there. (86 is the magic # for anyone else having this issue)

[abstract3000]

Sorry to be a bother, but was wondering If I could get a bit more help in "defining" the issue I'm Seeing on the Screen it happens with the Vertical Games only, I have been reading all sorts of things thinking this was called screen tearing, but I don't think that's right cause I have followed a couple things from the Offical CRT_Emudriver forum discussion docs and none of that is panning out, so I think this must have a different name, and I just need to know what to search for, and if Possible where the issue typically comes from, that would greatly help me in my research to get to the bottom of the issue.

1943 being ran at 2560x256p 58.273hZ 16.2 Khz
CRT Emudriver 2.0
AMD Radeon HD 6450
Panasonic ct-27d11e
Windows 7
Mame64 .206 w/ GroovyMame .206

[Zebidee]

Use the EDID Luke!

Windows 7 is hard-limited to 120 custom video modes. Sounds harsh, but it is more than enough. You shouldn't need anywhere near 120.

On my Win7 cabs I'd have 20-30 video modes installed, and that includes super resolutions and a few weird ones for other games and emulators.

It is in your best interests to have fewer video modes installed, because every time switchres (part of Groovymame) goes through them all to work out which mode is best, it takes longer with more modes.

I never bother with cut-paste modelines from ArcadeOSD, and just edit the monitor presets in monitor.ini instead. You can do it via the GUI in VMMaker. Once you get it right, every mode will be auto-generated with the right geometry. Test with desktop res and a few well-known games. It is easy to tweak the values and regenerate/install the modes again, as many times as you like, until you get it right. You don't even have to re-boot in Win7 (like we used to do with XP). So easy! 

GM is designed to just work, once you have it setup right. Most problems seem to occur because we think it must be more complicated than it really is.

On your vertical games zigzag, that may just possibly be crappy sync from the cheap chinese box.

[abstract3000]

Thanks for The Response Zebidee

Use the EDID Luke!

That photo is Taken with EDID Emulation Turned on

On my Win7 cabs I'd have 20-30 video modes installed, and that includes super resolutions and a few weird ones for other games and emulators.

I dropped the Resolutions down to 86 to be compatible with Hyperspin, though if I just delete All modes in Driver, Swichrez obviously can't find a compatible mode, Flags the Error then will load in 256x224 (V) 60.00000000 Hz but with a Horizontal Orientation without issues. If I try to adjust Rotate in the mame.ini it switches it but upside down and really really small. (most likely can't find a compatible resolution)


If I Install 30 Modes Like in your Install (also tried 20), It loads it up and grabs that 2560x256P Mode as posted in previous Post With Same Identical Problem. (you stated you have Super Resolutions as well) "Zig Zag"? Is that what the issue is known as?

I never bother with cut-paste modelines from ArcadeOSD, and just edit the monitor presets in monitor.ini instead.

I am using a custom Modeline as well, I used ArcadeOSD in the 640*480 Resolution, then I went to adjust the Horizontal Settings, got the geometry to what looked correct, wrote down the numbers and pasted them over the arcade 15.7 default modes saved, reset and turned EDID Emulation back on.

These Are my current Settings:
Standard Resolution", "4.3" crt_range0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 4.767, 4.767, 6.544, 0.096, 0.191, 1.084, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Now before you jump on me for the H Front Porch and Synch, I know those numbers look strange, I got them from ArcadeOSD, and the resolution on the screen still has some overscan but completely readable, and here's the thing I have generated those numbers so many damn times from different ArcadeOSD Preset resolutions and repeated this and I can't honestly figure out what is what there is no firm pattern or correlation that I'm recognizing here when I adjust. (They seem to just jump all over the place) No matter how hard I try at the vertical settings in the geometry screen, I can never get that lined up, they seem to be proportionate with the Horizontal Settings yet its like they scale much larger than my screen, and I have been curious about the 288, 448 numbers on the end of that mode line. (ActiveLinesLimit &  VirtualLinesLimit). Yet I have adjusted those numbers as well and no difference
[Edit] If I am mistaken your statement above, I have also Tried the Standard Settings available without switching anything, and the issue still persists though it is not as bad, meaning the zig Zag is Smaller, though the overscan at the top missing Scores ect is still present, pushing more towards thinking this has something to do with the Vertical lines available on the screen.

 and yes I have this page pulled up (http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46) and this specifically stated   Contrary to the horizontal case, vertical amplitude is usually not adjustable by tweaking these settings, only centering is possible in most cases.

Though I do have the Service Menu open and Can adjust and willing to deal with wonky picture to an extent, I have no idea how to approach that Zig Zag, let alone understand "Why" is it there?

GM is designed to just work, once you have it setup right. Most problems seem to occur because we think it must be more complicated than it really is.

Good point, I over think allot of things.

On your vertical games zigzag, that may just possibly be crappy sync from the cheap chinese box.

See attached photos, Same with wakabavideo box and the Chinese box. I honestly can't tell the difference between either of the boxes plugged in.

[Zebidee]

Glad you are using the EDID now 

Vertical games

For your monitor rotation woes, do this:

Go to your mame/GM directory, find the mame.ini file and delete it. Back it up if you feel you must, but delete it.

Also delete any [romname].ini files you might have lurking in your mame directory, and also any [romname].ini files in the INI directory.

Now that all your previous sins have been absolved and washed away (deleted), open a command prompt, go into the mame directory and type:

groovymame64.exe -cc

This will create a brand new, virginal and innocent mame.ini. You may need to crack the cherry to update the directory paths if you don't use default (eg. ROMS), but otherwise it is good to go. There is just one more thing to do.

Go into VMMaker, click on "Edit Settings", make sure that you have Monitor rotation set as "Horizontal fixed" (hopefully it is already like this). Then click on the fourth/last tab ("MAME"), tell VMMaker where your groovymame64.exe file is, then tick the box that says "Export monitor settings to Groovymame". Then click "OK".

You should now see in the VMMaker command window:

Processing config...
Exporting settings to mame.ini...

That was VMMaker automatically updating your new mame.ini with the monitor settings!

Should all be good to go now. How easy was that!  I just went through the exact same process on my own cab to confirm.

This is what I mean by "GM is designed to just work, once you have it setup right"     I could have gone on about rotation options in the mame.ini file, but it probably isn't necessary and I don't want to confuse matters.

ZigZag

As for the ZigZag (technical term), I often see that on CRT TVs, especially where the sync H & V wires are simply twisted together to get "Smushy" composite sync (another technical term). Though in these cases the zigzag is more commonly at the top of the screen, as the TV loses track of sync and has problems working out where to start drawing the screen.

However, your TV seems to have a problem working out where to finish the screen. This could also be sync as most common methods for generating composite sync (from H&V) will leave a "Glitch" (yet another technical term) at the beginning of the vertical sync pulse, so this kinda makes sense as that is where your TV loses it.

FWIW I never get any zigzags when using GreenAntz units, nor had any reports from customers. Might just be just lucky. Or maybe because GreenAntz have a sync glitch filter built in, and also the GreenAntz composite sync gets mixed into the luma signal at exactly the right levels and place (rather than just being "jammed in", one more highly technical term).

You might be able to minimise zigzag by tweaking the monitor presets (the vertical sync and porch settings look normal enough from here, but you could play with them a little).

These Are my current Settings:
Standard Resolution", "4.3" crt_range0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 4.767, 4.767, 6.544, 0.096, 0.191, 1.084, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Your monitor preset value for your horizontal frontporch (? In bold above) seems a little high. I normally leave this at something like 1.500 to 2.500. Keep in mind that changing the backporch number also seems to affect where the front porch sits on the screen.

[makya]

Could be something else but I would try increasing front porch value, at least 0.130.

If possible please post a log of 1943.

Sorry to be a bother, but was wondering If I could get a bit more help in "defining" the issue I'm Seeing on the Screen it happens with the Vertical Games only, I have been reading all sorts of things thinking this was called screen tearing, but I don't think that's right cause I have followed a couple things from the Offical CRT_Emudriver forum discussion docs and none of that is panning out, so I think this must have a different name, and I just need to know what to search for, and if Possible where the issue typically comes from, that would greatly help me in my research to get to the bottom of the issue.

1943 being ran at 2560x256p 58.273hZ 16.2 Khz
CRT Emudriver 2.0
AMD Radeon HD 6450
Panasonic ct-27d11e
Windows 7
Mame64 .206 w/ GroovyMame .206

[Zebidee]

These Are my current Settings:
Standard Resolution", "4.3" crt_range0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 4.767, 4.767, 6.544, 0.096, 0.191, 1.084, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Your monitor preset value for your horizontal frontporch (In bold above) seems a little high. I normally leave this at something like 1.500 to 2.500. Keep in mind that changing the backporch number also seems to affect where the front porch sits on the screen.

Could be something else but I would try increasing front porch value, at least 0.130.

If possible please post a log of 1943.

Yes. It could be the Vertical porch causing the problem too, though I remain suspicious of the horizontal front porch value. Possibly even a combination of both as there are interactions.

When the porch parameters are too large/small, the TV loses track of the sync (because TV expects to find the sync pulse between the porches, and all within an allowable range). In particular, that Horizontal front porch looks too large. And yes, out-of-range horizontal porches can have an effect on the vertical sync too.

Try going back to default preset values and see if the problem persists.

[abstract3000]

Hey Zebidee, for shiz and giggz I went ahead and deleted the ini file and recreated it. Now If I follow your instructions to a T, I know the Issue will go away due to the fact Switchres will simply load the 640x480i (That also gave away the solution) Resolution on Every Game, as we Skipped adding user_modes - super.ini file into the User Modes tab, as well we skip the entire XML List Processing Section in the MAME Tab (I unchecked these to verify my suspicions). Lastly you just kick up Mame and never bother to Generate Modes or Install the Modes. Thus the compressed 640 * 480i Resolution.
So if I uncheck the XML List processing (Get Video modes from MAME xml) but keep my user modes, then load modes and install everything in MAME loads into Super Resolutions as expected. This time though only 15 modes Installed, and The issue Persists.

Thanks for clarifying the ZigZag, I was thinking about it last night and wondering about the Vertical Porches, Thanks Makya for making the suggestion of moving the Front Porch value upwards (I had no idea as to which way I was going) Though I did move it upwards a couple times and it didn't make any noticeable difference.

So while Trying to figure out the synch issue with my setup, I discovered a conversation between Calamity and another person he was talking to having similar Issues as me (The Vertical Synch was the key term I needed for my google fu). Anyways they were discussing my suspicions of the ActiveLinesLimit &  VirtualLinesLimit. So I first went after the ActiveLines limit dropped it from 288 -> 240, Bingo That corrected the damn Pac-Man games from scrolling. I was then playing with 1945K rom and I noticed it was unlike any of the others and actually displayed fine, so i kicked back into Mame started it up to see what Switchres was doing with it. and there it was 2560 * 480!!! Bingo! Switched the VirtualLinesLimit from 512 down to 480, and now everything works great! I was curious about Donkey Kong (Even though i have a DK Cab in the garage) as Calamity mentioned that could be an issue with setting the Active Lines Limit to 240 and DK Pulls up and looks fine as well.

Thanks Again for the Suggestion Makaya, and To Zebidee, put aside a greenAntz board for me, I don't need it but Hit me up next month after Xmas, I'll purchase it off you and send a bit additional your way for responding to all my B.S. This has been quite the road over the last couple months, i feel like we are officially friends 

Edit: As to the H Front Porch i had already went back to the Defaults and was still having the issue, for reference this is what I am using currently

Standard Resolution", "4.3" crt_range0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 1.048, 4.718, 8.388, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 240, 448, 480

In the last my Vertical Front porch was at .096 I added .130 to that number = .226, I tried .300 & .400 without any effect, This was first with the modeline I posted previous, and again with the default. ( i did allot fo testing today.

[Zebidee]

Hey Zebidee, for shiz and giggz I went ahead and deleted the ini file and recreated it. Now If I follow your instructions to a T, I know the Issue will go away due to the fact Switchres will simply load the 640x480i (That also gave away the solution) Resolution on Every Game, as we Skipped adding user_modes - super.ini file into the User Modes tab, as well we skip the entire XML List Processing Section in the MAME Tab (I unchecked these to verify my suspicions). Lastly you just kick up Mame and never bother to Generate Modes or Install the Modes. Thus the compressed 640 * 480i Resolution.

!! Oh you're making it too complicated. All I was really saying was to go in and click "OK" so that your monitor presets get exported to the mame.ini. You should really do this every time you make changes to the monitor presets.

So if I uncheck the XML List processing (Get Video modes from MAME xml) but keep my user modes, then load modes and install everything in MAME loads into Super Resolutions as expected. This time though only 15 modes Installed, and The issue Persists.

I just assumed you'd done this stuff already, as you said you were using super modes. Didn't want you to change anything, or even mention mame.xml. Just get the settings exported to mame.ini, which is what happens after you click "OK". Still, symptoms persist so moving on...

Another possibility is your TV just doesn't like mid-50's modes. Some multi-region TVs can handle anything around 50-ish ("PAL") and anything around 60-ish ("NTSC"), but balk at frequencies closer to 55hz.

In the last my Vertical Front porch was at .096 I added .130 to that number = .226, I tried .300 & .400 without any effect, This was first with the modeline I posted previous, and again with the default. ( i did allot fo testing today.

Did you try 0.130 as well?

So while Trying to figure out the synch issue with my setup, I discovered a conversation between Calamity and another person he was talking to having similar Issues as me (The Vertical Synch was the key term I needed for my google fu). Anyways they were discussing my suspicions of the ActiveLinesLimit &  VirtualLinesLimit. So I first went after the ActiveLines limit dropped it from 288 -> 240, Bingo That corrected the damn Pac-Man games from scrolling. I was then playing with 1945K rom and I noticed it was unlike any of the others and actually displayed fine, so i kicked back into Mame started it up to see what Switchres was doing with it. and there it was 2560 * 480!!! Bingo! Switched the VirtualLinesLimit from 512 down to 480, and now everything works great! I was curious about Donkey Kong (Even though i have a DK Cab in the garage) as Calamity mentioned that could be an issue with setting the Active Lines Limit to 240 and DK Pulls up and looks fine as well.

This is fine, if you are happy with 240p.

You may be interested to know that I usually use multi-range monitor presets for my TVs! Meaning, two or even three sets of "crt_range#" parameters. This allows me to restrict 240p to modes around 60hz (like NTSC), restrict 288p to modes around 50hz, and have flexibility for everything in-between. But I didn't want to make things complicated, and that is probably worthy of a separate thread sometime.

Thanks Again for the Suggestion Makaya, and To Zebidee, put aside a greenAntz board for me, I don't need it but Hit me up next month after Xmas, I'll purchase it off you and send a bit additional your way for responding to all my B.S. This has been quite the road over the last couple months, i feel like we are officially friends 

Thanks mate! But please don't feel any obligation. Only in it for the hobby & community. Over past week, between posts, I've been revising the GreenAntz (1.2) design to make a range of small improvements. Takes longer than you ever expect because always triple-checking everything, then you get a grand new idea   Just sent off a new PCB order (purple!), now am keen to get them and test it all out.