GM image pixelated

[Kaz]

Hi everyone.

I always had the impression that the graphics in GM look too blocky, pixelated compared to the smoother image that I remember from the old arcade machines, something didn't look right, so last night I decided to do a test and I was able see that I was not wrong.

Below you can see tekken 3 under gm and under ps1, you can clearly see how gm looks more blocky and jaggied while ps1 is much smoother as if it had some type of aa filter, the image is also brighter.

https://ibb.co/fH20Gxh
https://ibb.co/m4v0QWs

FIRST link is Tekken 3 running on GM
SECOND one is ps1

I'm using a CRT arcade monitor with an ati 4350 connected VGA to scart rgb bypass trought the JAMMA pins, the ps1 uses an official sony RGB to Scart cable if it matters.

An extra fact is that when I change from d3d9 to open gl or gdi the image looks even a little more pixelated and has a small flicker... This problem is with all games, some more other less but still noticiable

Anyone experienced the same?
Help or some tip is appreciated

[buttersoft]

Err, it might be that GM's range lines are only permitting switchres to generate a 240p mode? Tekken 2 and Tekken 3 were 480p in the arcade, from memory. Tekken 2 on PS1 was 240p (i think) but T3 was 480i (at least sometimes?).

Bring up the GM infoscreen on launch for Tekken 3 and check what mode is selected vs what MAME thinks is native. You may want to alter your range lines for 480i, if only in a tekken3.ini file.

Oh, and welcome to the forum

[Kaz]

Err, it might be that GM's range lines are only permitting switchres to generate a 240p mode? Tekken 2 and Tekken 3 were 480p in the arcade, from memory. Tekken 2 on PS1 was 240p (i think) but T3 was 480i (at least sometimes?).

Bring up the GM infoscreen on launch for Tekken 3 and check what mode is selected vs what MAME thinks is native. You may want to alter your range lines for 480i, if only in a tekken3.ini file.

Oh, and welcome to the forum

Hey! thanks you
Managed to make It look closer just entering service mode and setting interleaced option, not 100% same picture but quite Closer, i think it maybe also because worse degradation Signal from ps1.

Still i notice some games especially 224p ones look more pixelated than their original counterpart, maybe its because im not using jpac to amp the RGB Signal to my arcade monitor? need to make some more test to be sure.

[Zebidee]

I'm guessing that you are using Windows XP and an older Groovymame build, because you're using a HD4350 card ("legacy") and talking about d3d9? Getting the HD4XXX cards working properly under Win7 is not easy, if you've managed that then well done.

Later mame builds (which GM is based on) don't support XP, and 32bit platforms generally, and require 3D rendering capabilities beyond d3d9 (which is as far as XP goes with d3d).

I'm using a CRT arcade monitor with an ati 4350 connected VGA to scart rgb bypass trought the JAMMA pins, the ps1 uses an official sony RGB to Scart cable if it matters.

Most arcade monitors will require a video amp, otherwise the picture will be dim. Surprised you don't have one, but the pics look bright enough anyway.

I just booted GM_0.249 and see that Tekken 3 reports imperfect emulation of graphics. You won't see this if you have the "info" or "nag" screens switched off (and this I why I leave mine switched on). Guessing this hasn't changed yet in latest versions.

The infor/nag screens also report Tekken3 (arcade version) as being "640x480". Even though Butters advises us this was 480p (progressive) originally, it would be displayed, on your 15khz arcade monitor, in 640x480i (interlaced). This is the best it can do with that version of the game. Your PS1 probably displays Tekken3 at 720x480i (NTSC standard), because it was designed for 15khz NTSC TVs/displays, which means you'll get a few more horizontal pixels. However, you are comparing apples and oranges as the games are actually different (arcade vs PS1), having been designed for different platforms and display technologies.

An extra fact is that when I change from d3d9 to open gl or gdi the image looks even a little more pixelated and has a small flicker... This problem is with all games, some more other less but still noticiable

Anyone experienced the same?
Help or some tip is appreciated

I think that, over time and different versions, the devs/pro users etc. are pretty consistent about recommending d3d before open_gl or gdi rendering, except in special cases or bug-testing. Search the site and see for yourself (you can start with the GM release threads pinned at top of Groovymame forum branch).

GM (and mame) have made many advancements, and various changes to video rendering from time-to-time, responding to developments and bugs encountered. To compare meaningfully, you will need to use the latest versions on appropriate platforms.

[Zebidee]

Hey! thanks you
Managed to make It look closer just entering service mode and setting interleaced option, not 100% same picture but quite Closer, i think it maybe also because worse degradation Signal from ps1.

Still i notice some games especially 224p ones look more pixelated than their original counterpart, maybe its because im nota using jpac to amp the RGB Signal to my arcade monitor, i need to make some more test to make sure.

"service mode" ... Is your monitor really a TV?

I noticed that you didn't have an amp and mentioned it earlier, but this won't affect pixelation - only brightness. Your brightness looks OK.

I don't think it is fair to compare arcade versions of games with PS1 versions. Even though they might have the same name, not the same.

I've spent time comparing GM games to original arcade PCB versions, and once you are setup properly, generally there is not much difference worth noting.

[Kaz]

"service mode" ... Is your monitor really a TV?

I noticed that you didn't have an amp and mentioned it earlier, but this won't affect pixelation - only brightness. Your brightness looks OK.

I don't think it is fair to compare arcade versions of games with PS1 versions. Even though they might have the same name, not the same.

I've spent time comparing GM games to original arcade PCB versions, and once you are setup properly, generally there is not much difference worth noting.

Thanks you for your input and tips very aprreciated as you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge.

When i was referring to service mode it was service mode/test mode from Capcom pcb ingame GM board, there's an option where you can turn video mode into interleaced.
No TV consumer set i have a brand new old stock arcade monitor intervideo VP wich it may also be the cause about being sometimes a little to crisp and pixelated in some games given that the focus and tube have been used for less than 40 hours compared to old arcade monitor tubes with burn and far from their best image quality and displaying the image a little more fuzzy and softer.

About my rig i use a 4350hd legacy with windows 10 and CRT emudrivers 2.0 by calamity windows7/8/10 compatibility so it works and im using Groovymame 255.002t version, nothing special and just followed the steps stated by calamity and it worked like a champ,switch res,messages from state of the game etc its all working fine... Dunno if im missing some performance video libraries from direxct3D by using such an old car but maybe is worth a shoot try a newer one as you said.

Anywais as you stated its not the perfect comparaison.
Im waiting for an incoming MVS board to check side by side against GM and see differences anywais.
Also im in doubt about connection harness doesnt have an impact in image quality since im using a bypass RGB scart at 0.7 V RGB and not conecting direct to Jamma harness on my chasis because the levels of RGB are much higher than 0.7v through a jamma conection.

Any more tips are aprreciated and thank you for your help! 

[Recapnation]

For what it's worth, arcade Tekken 3 was 512 * 480 interlaced, Namco's System 12 was not really designed for 480-P as those monitors were still uncommon for non-dedicated cabs. The PS version runs at 320 * 240 in order to keep ~60 FPS.
 
So yeah, it's a bad comparison in this regard, but as Buttersoft said, you must have forced 240-P for the GM instance as there's no 240-P option on the original System 12 PCB settings and your pic looks 240-P? If you force via emulation 240-P into a hi-res game you can't expect the same result as a true (even if reprogrammed) 240-P game.
 
Also keep in mind not every home system outputs the same signal quality in RGB. If I recall there're distinctions even between the different PS models.

[Zebidee]

Age of the card isn't really an issue - when I was comparing GM to my small stock of arcade PCBs, I was using an XP64 machine with an even older ATI X1050 card with a massive 64MB of RAM, with the (now obsolete) CRT_emudriver 1.2b and running an older-but-modded version of GM ~0.200.

It's more if there was some kind of conflict between the OS, version of GM you are using and what drivers are supported.

If you are going to go ahead and compare GM emulation to Ps1 regardless, you'll need to know exactly what both are doing, where they are similar and where (and why) they are different.

Anywais as you stated its not the perfect comparaison.
Im waiting for an incoming MVS board to check side by side against GM and see differences anywais.
Also im in doubt about connection harness doesnt have an impact in image quality since im using a bypass RGB scart at 0.7 V RGB and not conecting direct to Jamma harness on my chasis because the levels of RGB are much higher than 0.7v through a jamma conection.

Any more tips are aprreciated and thank you for your help! 

FWIW, the JAMMA harness itself does not add any voltage to the RGB. It is just a "harness", serves to make connections. It makes no real difference whether you input the RGB via the JAMMA or via a "bypass SCART RGB" (whatever that is exactly) directly to the monitor. Assuming no connection issues, you are still getting RGB at 0.7vpp, though is possible the PS1 might be outputting RGB at a slightly higher level than the PC/VGA.