TS-DOT-02 Turn Count Question

[bluewave8]

Hello everyone,

I've built a MAME cabinet and am using the TS-DOT-02 spinner. The spinner is working mostly as intended, but I have been unable to correctly calculate the sensitivity to set for games that use the spinner in MAME.

I'm familiar with the following page:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?title=Spinner_Turn_Count

However, after a significant amount of research, I've been unable to determine the counts per revolution of the TS-DOT-02. I've seen that it has software settings to change the CPI between 360, 720, and 1440, though this does not seem to equate to PPR and I have not been able to find a way to relate the two (if that is even possible).

I've called and emailed Thunderstick multiple times requesting counts per revolution but have not heard back.

So my questions are:

1) Does anyone know the PPR for this spinner?
2) If not, is there an easy way (program that can report "pulses"?) to measure it?
2) What is the relationship (if any) between PPR and CPI? How would changing CPI effect user experience for a given PPR?

Thank you!

[PL1]

What is the relationship (if any) between PPR and CPI? How would changing CPI effect user experience for a given PPR?

There is no easy way to directly convert between the two, but they are directly proportional.

PPR (Pulses Per Rotation/Revolution) - How many transitions you get when you rotate the spinner 360 degrees. (angle-based measurement)
- Changing the diameter of the spinner knob does not change this measurement.

CPI (Counts Per Inch) - How many transitions you get when you move a mouse one inch. (distance-based measurement)
- Changing the diameter of the spinner knob does change this measurement.

This post on Reddit several years ago claims that the GRS button hole spinner "reports 380 steps per revolution over USB."
- No mention if the adjustable sensitivity feature was used or even available at that time.   

Arkanoid requires a very high spinner resolution.
- Set your spinner to the highest resolution possible and try playing it.
- If it works OK in Arkanoid, it is easy to reduce sensitivity in other MAME games.

User experience is going to be affected by the choice of knob, resolution of the spinner, and personal preferences.  It can be very subjective.


Scott

[bluewave8]

Well that's unfortunate. Thank you for the information.

I think I might try to sell this spinner and get the Ultimarc Spintrak that was mentioned in that thread, unless you all can recommend something else.

I don't like the idea of dialing it down, I don't want to be approximate. I've not logged many hours on an authentic cabinet of most of these games so I won't have a basis for comparison. If someone has gone through the work of creating the wonderful table on the wiki detailing the PPR per game, I want to use that information to its fullest to provide the most accurate experience.

[PL1]

I think I might try to sell this spinner and get the Ultimarc Spintrak that was mentioned in that thread, unless you all can recommend something else.

TT2 from GGG and SpinTrak from Ultimarc are the most commonly used/recommended spinners.

I don't like the idea of dialing it down, I don't want to be approximate.

The only 100% accurate approach is buying all of the original cabs with original spinners, knobs, buttons, and control panels.

For most people, the more rational and reasonable approach to playing the widest variety of games is to approximate.

The key is answering the question, "How close is close enough for me?"


Scott

[BadMouth]

There has got to be some way to back into it from the software side.

If there is some game where one full rotation is obvious, adjust sensitivity to get one full rotation correct and then use the sensitivity setting and original count to figure out the spinner's cpr.  Maybe the game 720?

I remember using some kind of software to count pulses on unknown encoders long long ago, but that was straight from the sensors and I can't figure out what software it was.  I think it was from US Digital, but their current stuff looks like it requires their interface.

[BadMouth]

Don seems to have it figured out their button hole spinner: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RPPSHKXFPFA95/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B08HNB5933

There is considerable disagreement about the pulses per rotation of this spinner. An accurate number is needed to properly calibrate sensitivity for each game in MAME. With MAME on the PC playing Tempest, a sensitivity setting of “9” gives the correct 5 lane per rotation sensitivity. Reversing the sensitivity formula, that means pulses per rotation is 72 * 100 / 9 = 800. Others have measured it at 780 ppr. 780 works well with the MAME scaling formula for Arkanoid and any game I have tried. The 4800 mentioned by the seller may be the native rotation of the encoder, but the USB interface provides only about 780 PPR. The PPR value is unaffected by Windows mouse pointer sensitivity settings.

UPDATE: I tested the spinner in Windows 10 using a tool called "MouseTester v1.4". Using the data collection feature, one full rotation of the spinner provides exactly 775 counts, which agrees with others' testing and empirical results in MAME. Use 775 PPR for MAME on a PC with the default Microsoft mouse driver that is installed when the unit is plugged in.

Perhaps the same methods could be applied to your model.

[bluewave8]

For most people, the more rational and reasonable approach to playing the widest variety of games is to approximate.

The key is answering the question, "How close is close enough for me?"

I might be rational but not reasonable ;-)

As far as how close, this is certainly a good thing to think about. Close enough for me is probably around 3-5% or less error. I'd like for the average person to not be able to tell the difference in the angular sensitivity of the spinner if they went from my MAME cabinet to the authentic controller.

Perhaps the same methods could be applied to your model.

Thank you!! Great find. I found and downloaded that software and am trying to get a good reading now. The software from Tsticks that lets you change the CPI from 360, 720, and 1440 DOES change the output in X counts according to the MouseTester software. Maybe the reviewer was referring to the Windows CPI/DPI settings and did not have the Tsticks software, or the software doesn't apply to that Tsticks spinner.

After 23 tries of measuring "one" full rotation with the CPI set on 1440, my average counts reading was 3710 with a max of 4142 and a min of 3216. This is too high of an error rate so I'll have to keep trying. This has been with eyeballing an allen key that is coming out of the setscrew on the side of the spinner knob. I'll have to try to rig up some sort of fixture to get a more repeatable measurement.

[BadMouth]

Assuming US Digital makes industry standard encoders and yours uses an industry standard encoder, the most likely cpr in that range would be 4000 or 4096.  I have no idea why there aren't options in the 3k range.  Must be some reason.

https://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/shaft/s16/

EXIT: Eh, 4k is awful high for the min and average you were getting.  Hope you can get repeatable results.

[bluewave8]

Thanks for that additional info.

I wanted to report back with new findings.

The MouseTester software default action is to have you click and hold the main mouse button while you move the mouse, then release when your measurement is complete. For this push/pull spinner, I had it set up so that pressing down activates the left mouse button. Apparently, when I do this, the spinner sends pulses for its Z direction that somehow get counted or effect the sending of the X direction as well, which is why my previously reported counts were so high and so inconsistent. I changed my test method to use F1 to begin collection and F2 to end data collection.

With that method, the results are much more repeatable. The latest results have a min of 1412, a max of 1468, and an average of 1435. However, the fixturing I'm trying to use for this isn't the best. I'm using two allen keys; I have one allen key extending from the set screw of the spinner knob, and another one coming up perpendicularly from the control surface. The allen key from the set screw will start its rotation by having one of its sides contacting the left side of the vertical allen key, and will end "one" rotation by contacting its opposite side against the right side of the vertical allen key. This would have my maximum measurement off by at least the "width" in pulses of the vertical allen key. The width may be around 100 pulses, which would bring the total of one revolution closer to 1535, but it was very difficult to attempt a measurement of the width of the allen key in pulses (not very repeatable).

**EDIT- just realized that I'm actually off by the diameter of both of the Allen keys. They are very different sizes, the larger vertical one is around 100 pulses, the smaller one is around 20-40

[Unessential]

Just based off trial and error (Arkanoid requiring roughly 120-130 degrees to go from one side to the other, and Tempest going 5 sections per full rotation)

I assumed that the CPI = CPR (it's not) I ended up having to multiply the entire thing by 0.6 to get the correct sensitivity when spinning slowly (so, reversing the math, 600 CPR?)

Notice i said while spinning slowly,  I noticed that if I spun the spinner fast it would register a shorter distance than if i spun it slow. -- which didn't seem right, because that would mean the numbers people refer to would need to also specify a rough speed to be useful...  But I guess it's a good starting point.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I have BSP rather than DOT, but As far as i know they are the same spinner with just a different mounting option plus push pull functionality

[haynor666]

For me it was hard to set up perfectly TS-DOT-02 because I don't remember how original game behave and for the most of games I even didn't play them in original cabinet. The result set up was to make games playable. Many racing games (at least till I get driving wheel) I set up with low sensivity.

This was one of two know to me spinners with push/pull option (which I require for Disc of Tron, Forgotten Worlds and Eco Fighters). TS-DOT-02 was much more cheaper than TurboTwist High-Low™ Push-Pull so I choose GRS Push & Pull Spinner. Knobs appears to be almost identical.

[RandyT]

TS-DOT-02 was much more cheaper than TurboTwist High-Low™ Push-Pull so I choose GRS Push & Pull Spinner. Knobs appears to be almost identical.

The reason the knob looks the same is because they were apparently heavily influenced by my original knob design, as seems to be the case with the form factor of other spinner products. But as some seem to be finding out, there is much more to the function of this type of control than outward appearances.  The sensing methods and high-low operation, used in these lower cost units is about 10-12x less costly to manufacture (not to mention the cost difference of the materials) than that used in our spinner, so in the spirit of "you get what you pay for", I'd say that expectations might be a little too high. 

If the extra money is too much for folks, and they just want something which is better than using a trackball (or God forbid a joystick) to play those games, and they don't care about absolute arcade accuracy, then they fill a need.  But they definitely are not the same experience as the more costly option.

[Shaunvis]

I'm still in the process of getting things together to start a build (if I can ever find the time  ) and thought I'd chime in here. I bought the same spinner & thought it was ok until I started testing it and wasn't too happy.

I ordered the TurboTwist high-low from GGG and it's a night & day difference. It's like the GRS spinner is a toy and the GGG spinner is a Ferrari.

Now I suppose I'll use the GRS one for player 2 for pong os something like that. But the GGG is definitely the main 1P spinner