CRT range and vertical positioning

[Milsancho]

I have been reading how to modify a CRT range so that Groovymame sets the best possible video mode for every game according to the CRT's geometry. But firstly, I haven't found much in regards to using two different CRT monitors, one for 31khz and above and the other for 15khz, so I'm not sure if I should define two different CRT ranges in mame's ini, one for each monitor, and if I can add 31khz modes in usermodes.ini together with the 15khz modes if I want that Video mode maker installs them all for the different emulators. How will Groovymame pick a progressive mode instead of the interlaced version when it has both possibilities?

I'm also a bit confused with the vertical positioning. If the CRT range is well adjusted for a CRT, does it mean that the picture will always be centered on screen no matter the refresh, be it 58hz, be it 61hz?

Thks.

[makya]

Are you saying you want to have both monitors connected, then have GM pick the correct one, based on game resolution?

[Milsancho]

More or less, mate. Both monitors will be connected using the VGA out (15khz) and the HDMI out + converter (31khz, VGA), and through Window's screen properties app, I'll set which one is in actual use. If I have two CRT range definitions for Groovy, I wonder if it will automatically know which to pick based on the active Edid Windows is using every moment? I'm assuming I have to have two CRT ranges, but I'm not really sure, though.

[makya]

What is Switchres 2.0?

Switchres 2.0 is a modeline generation engine for emulation. The Switchres project has become an independent library, and with it, GroovyMAME has been reworked, to hopefully achieve a cleaner and more robust integration.

New features:

Multi-monitor support: Switchres 2.0 can handle up to 4 displays simultaneously, each with its own separate configuration. Default Switchres settings for all displays are read from MAME's usual .ini system, but now you can create specific per-display .ini files, named display0.ini, display1.ini, etc., that allow independent configuration for each display. Vertical synchronization (-syncrefresh) is always done to display #0.

Most importantly, the user can decide which exact monitor the output will go to in a multi-monitor setup. While this is not a new feature, it now works reliably on both Windows and Linux. As usual, set the option -screen <screen> for that. Remind that in Windows <screen> is typically \\.\DISPLAY1, \\.\DISPLAY2, etc., while in Linux (SDL2) you have screen0, screen1, etc.

I believe that you have to tell GM which monitor to use, then you can define different ranges for each monitor, by means of displayX.ini files.

[Substring]

What I wonder is how YOU determine which game should display on which monitor. As far as I know there is no "per horizontal frequency" .ini

[makya]

Yes, we have to know which monitor to use beforehand.

[Milsancho]

Multi-monitor support: Switchres 2.0 can handle up to 4 displays simultaneously, each with its own separate configuration. Default Switchres settings for all displays are read from MAME's usual .ini system, but now you can create specific per-display .ini files, named display0.ini, display1.ini, etc., that allow independent configuration for each display. Vertical synchronization (-syncrefresh) is always done to display #0.

Most importantly, the user can decide which exact monitor the output will go to in a multi-monitor setup. While this is not a new feature, it now works reliably on both Windows and Linux. As usual, set the option -screen <screen> for that. Remind that in Windows <screen> is typically \\.\DISPLAY1, \\.\DISPLAY2, etc., while in Linux (SDL2) you have screen0, screen1, etc.[/i]

I believe that you have to tell GM which monitor to use, then you can define different ranges for each monitor, by means of displayX.ini files.

Thanks, I somehow missed that!

So, if I understand properly, the CRT range definitions should go within displayX.ini files (and be deleted from mame.ini)? I'm likely missing something quite elementary, but why are several consecutive crt_rangeX lines within Groovymame's original mame.ini file if so, though?

Besides, the syntax for -screen is like this and it goes within a particular game's ini?

-screen \\.\DISPLAY1

If there's no defined -screen, Groovymame will always pick the first display according to Windows? And for all this to work, does Groovymame need that the desktop has been extended, I presume? If it hasn't and there's just one active screen, what Groovy will do when it reads another -screen instruction?

Too many questions, I'm afraid, but seems by setup is not usual at all.

[makya]

It is useful to have several ranges even on a single monitor. I don't know how arcade monitors behave, but tv sets can be temperamental and using several ranges is almost mandatory, at least for me it is (I compile my own version of GM to extend the max number of ranges according to my needs).

The syntax for -screen is correct.

By default, I believe GM will pick the first monitor available in windows.
I don't know if the desktop needs to be extended or if it could work on a cloned desktop.
If -screen is set to a non exisiting monitor, you wont get any picture (just tried \\.\DISPLAY2 on a single monitor PC)

All that said, in case you want to use one monitor at a time, you should not go the displayX.ini way, because Vertical synchronization (-syncrefresh) is always done to display #0.

Please describe precisely what you want to achieve.

[Milsancho]

It is useful to have several ranges even on a single monitor. I don't know how arcade monitors behave, but tv sets can be temperamental and using several ranges is almost mandatory, at least for me it is (I compile my own version of GM to extend the max number of ranges according to my needs).

I indeed must be missing something elementary, because I fail to understand this bit. In the case of only one 15khz TV, doesn't Groovy calculate the best modeline for every instance according to the specified CRT range? Why is it better several CRT ranges instead of only one which "includes" all the others? Is it just for different geometry situations? How does Groovy even know which range to pick every time?

By default, I believe GM will pick the first monitor available in windows.
I don't know if the desktop needs to be extended or if it could work on a cloned desktop.
If -screen is set to a non exisiting monitor, you wont get any picture (just tried \\.\DISPLAY2 on a single monitor PC)

All that said, in case you want to use one monitor at a time, you should not go the displayX.ini way, because Vertical synchronization (-syncrefresh) is always done to display #0.

Please describe precisely what you want to achieve.

Windows 7, R7 200 series card (VGA, HDMI, DVI-D), CRT Emu Driver with Vulkan compatibility (by psakhis), 15khz RGB TV, 31-to-102 kHz PC CRT.

At phase 1 I just want to have both monitors connected but use them alternatively. So I'll just tell Windows which monitor is active every time before launching Groovymame or whatever with the screen properties app.

Here resides the first question I got, I think: After installing Emu Driver, which is the best way to enable/activate Edid emulation for both monitors so that I can extend or clone the desktop safely. Or even if, given the particular setup of mine, I should follow the installation guide at Calamity's site to the letter.

For Groovymame, I don't care if I have to create preventively an ini for every game which otherwise could natively use both, a progressive mode or the interlaced version, given that both video modes will likely be possible on my system once I generate the modes for the different vertical frequencies both monitors are capable, but what I don't want is that Groovy tries to run a game at 31khz if it's the 15khz TV the one in use (obviously).

I also want to run Windows games and other emulators, some of them at 15khz, many of them at 31khz and beyond.

There's the second question I have, should I install 15 and 31khz (and beyond) modes at once from an edited user_modes.ini for Video mode maker? Are high resolution interlaced modes (for 15khz) just distinguised by the "@ 30.000000" mark there?

I'm sure I'll need to make use of the standalone Switchres app, but I'll ask about it at its moment not to complicate it too much for now.

For the same reason, I'll leave for the future a phase 2 where both monitors can be used simultaneously on those games using natively two screens, lol.

By the way, have the discussions on Groovy and Tools moved to discord or elsewhere these days?

[Substring]

WHat I'd like to stress with my previous unanswered question, is that right now you're forced to know which roms will go to 15kHz, and which roms will go to 31kHz

With this in mind, you'd need to create shortcuts pointing to the right .ini (where you can set the screen, no need ot use the command line switch). Going through a single launch script is doable, but would require to parse a file with games resolution and refresh rate

[Milsancho]

So, please, correct me if I'm wrong, the safest/easiest way is just having two Groovymame installations, one for 15khz and another for 31khz.

[makya]

So, please, correct me if I'm wrong, the safest/easiest way is just having two Groovymame installations, one for 15khz and another for 31khz.

Precisely what I would do in your case. Once you get familiar with GM, ini files, modelines, ranges etc. you will think of ways to optimize your setup, for example using scripts as Substring is suggesting.

NB: in my case using several ranges is a way to cope with geometry variations, as you correctly assumed.

[Milsancho]

So, please, correct me if I'm wrong, the safest/easiest way is just having two Groovymame installations, one for 15khz and another for 31khz.

Precisely what I would do in your case.

Yeah, thanks. The problem with this solution is that it won't do for phase 2, with multi monitor games. But I guess it will be just a matter of reconfiguring one of the Groovys for it and adding a displayX.ini.

It still bugs me the several CRT ranges within a mame.ini thing, though. How Groovy knows which is the best suited for every game and for the particular geometry settings on your display if you don't tell it somehow. I feel like I'm missing something important to understand the monitor configuration aspect and experiment with confidence.

[makya]

Regading Phase 2, it's better you gain experience first.

GM/switchres uses an algo to find the best mode allowed by the ranges you set. Do you understand every entry set in a range?

By the way, is your 15 kHz CRT a TV or an arcade monitor?

[Milsancho]

Yeah, no hurries.

I think I understand all of them, though I'll get a better grasp about the porches and the pulses when I do some testing.

I have a PAL TV (RGB), but modifying basic geometry is not too complicated on it.

The only thing I'd really like to clarify before proceeding is how the Emu Driver installation might differ considering my setup. I've read that I should not unplug the 31khz monitor, but if I want the 15khz monitor on the VGA output, I have to. Unless that meant I should use both, the HDMI and the VGA outputs from the beginning (which goes against everything explained in Calamity's guide).

[makya]

Regarding installation I think I can't help much because I don't use EDID at all (I'm on an HD4870).

Anyway, I had a look at the tutorial on Eiusdemmodi and Calamity says to unplug the PC CRT from the VGA output and then plug the 15kHz monitor in its place.

[buttersoft]

The only thing I'd really like to clarify before proceeding is how the Emu Driver installation might differ considering my setup. I've read that I should not unplug the 31khz monitor, but if I want the 15khz monitor on the VGA output, I have to. Unless that meant I should use both, the HDMI and the VGA outputs from the beginning (which goes against everything explained in Calamity's guide).

The install won't be different. Adding modes might be interesting. I'm not sure how to target a particular display when using VMM, because, if you can't, the modelines will be common in the registry (so any screen can just grab them). If you set an EDID emulation for 15kHz, does the 31kHz monitor have it's own EDID to draw from? I guess the easiest way would just be to set your ranges and install the modelines you want, sacrificing 15kHz protection.

If you can't find a way to get 15kHz protection and still want it for the VGA display head, you could use an external dongle! Allow me to link you to my sale thread... which i swear was not my intent when i started writing this post, but i seem to have landed on it :/ http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,167729.0.html

I'm also confused by the posts recommending two GroovyMAME installs. If you still have to configure the .ini files manually, why not do that for a single install?

I wonder what happens to the display you're not targeting, when MAME is running a game. Does MAME still push a mode to it? I know if you use a cloned desktop, one screen will simply be blank/black, but i don't what modeline it will be running.

[makya]

In my view the purpose of two GM installs is safety in that 15kHz and 31kHz configurations are separate. Also, I find it easier to learn how to correctly set up GM for each monitor independently, than trying to put it all together in one shot, particularly as a beginner. Of course it does not apply to Milsancho's phase 2.

Otherwise, in my experience (on legacy card only) launching GM on a dual monitor setup with extended desktop, targeting only one of them will not deactivate the other, that will keep displaying the desktop. But icons or windows, will move as if the desktop area was modified.

[Milsancho]

@makya

Was you dual monitor setup with legacy card also 15 and 31khz? I tried it previously with an HD4550 (for having two analogue outputs) and was out of luck with the latter.



@buttersoft:

I also wondered about having two different edids. I wanted to think that Windows manages that when you set which display is active, but when adding 15 and 31khz modes I wonder if I should have the desktop extended for them all to install, or if I should only add modes with the corresponding monitor active.

Thanks for the link as well, I might have to consider buying that. Is it that harmful getting out of sync eventually on a TV from the 90s?

As for the two Groovy installs, I don't think you'd still need to have per-game inis as you'll be forcing all the games to display accordingly to the CRT range you define for every Mame instance? Or have I misunderstood your question?

[makya]

Was you dual monitor setup with legacy card also 15 and 31khz? I tried it previously with an HD4550 (for having two analogue outputs) and was out of luck with the latter.

Dual monitor setup is TV + LCD monitor, both on analogue output. Pretty common I guess. I had it running on XP, Win7 and Win10.

[Milsancho]

Didn't you face any monitor detection issue at some point? Do you remember when did you add the 31khz modes? Was it from the beginning?

[buttersoft]

I also wondered about having two different edids. I wanted to think that Windows manages that when you set which display is active, but when adding 15 and 31khz modes I wonder if I should have the desktop extended for them all to install, or if I should only add modes with the corresponding monitor active.

The more i think about it, the more i'm remembering. VMM does let you choose the display head from the GUI, i think (like \\.\DISPLAY2). I've always used a single display though the commandline, so never had to worry about that save for EDID. Maybe you can set multiple EDID's IDK. You should give it a go If it fails, something like CRU might help for the 31kHz monitor as well. I'm not sure it would work for the 15kHz monitor at all though.

Thanks for the link as well, I might have to consider buying that. Is it that harmful getting out of sync eventually on a TV from the 90s?

You wouldn't normally need protection for a 90's TV, but if you're sending wrong modes every day then it might help you treat it a bit more gently. Protection is needed for Arcade monitors not covered by FCC rules in the US, and by some early 80's and older TV's, but it's a bit hazy. I use the dongles as a diagnostic tool as well, so it might help setting everything up. But up to you, of course

As for the two Groovy installs, I don't think you'd still need to have per-game inis as you'll be forcing all the games to display accordingly to the CRT range you define for every Mame instance? Or have I misunderstood your question?

Yeah, that makes sense. I think i've curated my lists to the point where so many games are custom i';m just used to doing things that way

[Milsancho]

Guys, I'm finally ready to test the dual edid thing (both, the 15khz and the 31khz monitors are working, edid emulation for the former is working) but I'd rather ask this first. As mentioned I'm using an R7 with VGA, DVI and HDMI, with a DAC for the HDMI to the PC CRT. According to VideoModeMaker's log:

Connector1 DVI-D
Connector2 VGA
Connector0 HDMI-A

When I'm displaying on the PC CRT exclusively VideoModeMaker's Edid emulation's Output tab has the option to select among the two digital outputs but I find no way to make sure which one corresponds to the HDMI as both are called the same except the cardinal ("Digital_n DVI-D disabled"). Is there a way to make sure if my HDMI with DAC is # 1 or 2?

As they're both "disabled", I'm assuming that I must add an edid for it (after picking a correct CRT range for it) like I did for the 15khz display in order to add custom modes, but maybe that's a wrong assumption anyway?

Also, there's an option in the Edid emulation tab to "Add modes from mode list". Should that be checked in order to get the custom modes from the ini file installed or what is it for?

Is it fine to install 15 and 31khz modes at once (when you're displaying exclusively on the PC monitor, "Extend desktop to both screens" was previouly disabled)?

Finally, pc_70_120 is OK for an ordinary (late) PC CRT or should I pick pc_31_120 for some reason?

monitor "pc_31_120", "PC CRT 31kHz/120Hz", "4:3"
        crt_range0  31400-31600, 100-130, 0.671, 2.683, 3.353, 0.034, 0.101, 0.436, 0, 0, 200, 256, 0, 0
        crt_range1  31400-31600, 50-65, 0.671, 2.683, 3.353, 0.034, 0.101, 0.436, 0, 0, 400, 512, 0, 0
     
monitor "pc_70_120", "PC CRT 70kHz/120Hz", "4:3"   
        crt_range0  30000-70000, 100-130, 2.201, 0.275, 4.678, 0.063, 0.032, 0.633, 0, 0, 192, 320, 0, 0
        crt_range1  30000-70000, 50-65, 2.201, 0.275, 4.678, 0.063, 0.032, 0.633, 0, 0, 400, 1024, 0, 0

[Milsancho]

"Finally, pc_70_120 is OK for an ordinary (late) PC CRT or should I pick pc_31_120 for some reason?"


This is neither, right? Given that you create an edid with VideoModeMaker and it uses one only monitor preset, if you want custom modes for both 15khz and 31-70khz no matter if it's for diferent displays, you need a preset that includes both cases with at least three crt ranges, don't you?

Something like this will do?

monitor "dual_output", "Generic 15.7 kHz + PC CRT 70kHz/120Hz", "4:3" 
        crt_range0 15625-15750, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576
        crt_range1  30000-70000, 100-130, 2.201, 0.275, 4.678, 0.063, 0.032, 0.633, 0, 0, 192, 320, 0, 0
        crt_range2  30000-70000, 50-65, 2.201, 0.275, 4.678, 0.063, 0.032, 0.633, 0, 0, 400, 1024, 0, 0

[buttersoft]

is that triple-EDID for one monitor or two?

[Milsancho]

Two monitors mate. 15khz for VGA and PC CRT for HDMI with converter. Not sure which one should be active when I create the edid, though.