Lichtknarre: Unmodified Wii remote as a sight accurate Lightgun using 2/4 LEDs

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Howard_Casto:
Yes this in the entire reason troubleshooter 1/2 and demulshooter exist. For many games, the only way to make them behave is to hack the code and let an external program control the cursor via manual raw positioning. It happens on a case by case basis. The good news is I may be back in the game assuming this new method works so I'll work on it. ;)

So while I'm patiently waiting on my leds to arrive I've been doing some digging and I'd like to share my thoughts here. So the guns Badmouth has are virtually unobtanium at this point which is unfortunate as they are ideal. I feel like the cost and accessibility should be taken into account with any solution as obviously we have other solutions at this point, but they rely on hard-to-find parts or rather expensive guns. So with the replica guns going for serious bucks what else is there? Well, the easiest option would be one of the gun shells on the market. The nyko perfect shot is probably the most popular shell:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165848822309?hash=item269d5c3225%3Ag%3AOBsAAOSwMo5jpb7T&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoJPkbsqyYJPvn7L9zRuJtrnMusK4qx8yLeBlKK6pEAMf0obl6o%2FzieWflxtAqqJk%2FWkle73mIeg8mSbSSOakykKEMio5bq46royiGC8j6PDCSE43RtCoyyI5eH%2BuH29%2F3EVIIn20wyGhfkY0Tg83CkOgd5EUnBjMLhGzW2chDtvke433XXiv%2FR2ZuCyLkk6z4iU1%2FxALyB6Or8Ki0oitR2I%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_T35JaqYQ&LH_ItemCondition=1000

New they are around 35 and used you can usually find a pair for around the same price. There are problems with it though, most notably the Trigger, which mechanically pulls the B trigger and just feels mushy and bad. Nyko later released a solution to this, namely the nyko action pak:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115630531933?epid=102416133&hash=item1aec1de55d:g:PjcAAOSwi7Fjj-c-&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoNjra0wSe7EE7eCpFbEFCqHvJtqijUohwMJ3hRuBXn8YxCG65SXgqY41dl3fNETrJDipHGAreysSZ4A3LOjly%2BJWhRUzk9NdYNzRCYApx0ddKgK%2F9Ft6FwYohrhAb%2BQDtkPIezQDzOTWtz0JfufsDO42PJmAIRBYa6phOR0Cf8vf3Bq2fPh6wevzZLtRdLrnfUlMUt6TmaB%2BkszANjGPdcs%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7r--paqYQ

With this improved shell there is a legitimate trigger with a microswitch but you'll immediately notice the problem, namely they are rare these days and fetch a fairly hefty price. All is not lost though. The way the press of the A/B button is transferred to the shell is via three contact pins on the back of the "wand" (I'm assuming for ground, a and b). While the gun shell is expensive, the wand, with those three contacts, is not and can usually be had for around 10 dollars:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175297607865?hash=item28d08d38b9:g:YhsAAOSwzSxikH3y&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4MUIyaMqdCm%2F%2BkJ6tO6a7WGDFoJQw%2FgzNq06et9ZfVufA8DxOxuC0a8UyTwidbGvPWQOh0tjdmzKr%2Bv6MgFW%2BuS%2BygeiUFp5orMccm4rjUbm4fGP1PO0dkWsOfwd8AtI56KD8ihJxkPs2Y4vc0dMjydv7l1Vdn39tOwcFd3cJSdrY9RUY6x6lf%2BVVDhaF4v%2FZ01366NkvnHEkaAgx8o%2BV%2FPXH%2BqRRnoi9RZqNmnxZi7ixIJe5HvWWK8UzkJ381qHrNEktYaNFbI0X8TPYCmsO7uK%2FfVM%2BlOMMt5q%2BtH5ibTp%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bGrJeqYQ

So buy one of these, solder on three wires (or get fancy and make a pcb with some pogo pins), and you can mount the whole thing in a modified shell with a real trigger. These seem like a good candidate for modding:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313699774683?hash=item4909f6b0db:g:urIAAOSwsvFhXIQ5&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4FtzKPtGsfEMMEZSDXn5lPvB8fAm6onJEMoA3ni09MmCqdkgikXx6SmZLz7TuF1uhGteY0yW2nfVENUMoK8ilHL4Q6RCcEYdaf4Xv0AG9lTAcJcCc15h6dTKMj5Sx5Jd1aD4rzZOnFloLv%2BHqQ3te6qLoBLHC8FWHBjGzL3p%2FoX2c4iWMxEBTpoq2E%2FSFAzeNhftH2dMeEo2Qa%2Bg3Zpo87UUNRtSJf%2Bg5vCvpGiRNxqoRnwGHUx%2Bnp6icY3CwDtAypRKpla7KPWdNZaG2QjCEOR8H%2BtcP0Y60G7i9IqGVxiO%7Ctkp%3ABFBMwoLHl6ph

You can get them in a variety of colors, and they often come in a two-pack new for 30 dollars. In addition, they have a sight on the front that the nyko perfect shot lacks. I say take one of these and create a 3d printed adapter to go inside the gun so it can have a real trigger.

Of course, there is a much simpler option to get a better trigger. There are shells out there that arrange the controller in such a way that a nunchuck is used for the grip and you use the z-trigger as the fire button. This is much better than the mechanical solutions of course, but the z-trigger is a bit mushy for lightgun action and the weight of the wiimote being so far out (because it has to be ahead of the nunchuck) often makes long gameplay sessions tiring. So I think the previous solution is best for those wanting to level up the stock options.

As for force-feedback and such... again, we have options. Of course getting the wiimote rumble to work is trivial.... this is supported in mamehooker and I might be willing to integrate it into troubleshooter 2 directly since it is so easy. The only problem with it is if you want a solenoid you are going to have to hack in a relay and bring in external power. Once you do that, you have a wiimote tethered to your cabinet and at that point it really makes little sense to bother hacking the wiimote for outputs.... just use one of Randy's boards or an arduino attached to the cab and then you just have to run power up your tether to power the solenoid. The software side would be more complicated, but I think that could be helped via a dedicated layout for hooking up devices. Something like:

Output 1 = P1 recoil
Output 2 = P1 motor (for some positional gun games)
Output 3 = P1 LED 1 (usually for indicating the player has a grenade or bomb to fire in positional games)
Output 4 = P1 LED 2 (Green led in T2 and Rev X)
Output 5 = P1 LED 3 (Red led in T2 and Rev X)
Output 6 = P1 Start LED
Output 7 = P1 Coin LED
Output 8 = P2 recoil
...ect....

The software could assume that the outputs are hooked up in this order and thus eliminate the need for a lot of user configuration. Or that might make it even more complicated, I'm not sure.

As for the physical solenoid itself, this seems to be a good choice:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273905080548?var=573757180843&_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20220705100511%26meid%3D5b3b4b299ac941a7aa67936f04cf25ee%26pid%3D101524%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D573757180843%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26algv%3DRecentlyViewedItemsV2%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c101524.m146925&_trkparms=pageci%3Af2312632-8592-11ed-a319-fe3aa990576e%7Cparentrq%3A51885cb81850aaecb52df242fff6d678%7Ciid%3A1

It seems to retail for around 10 bucks and has two threaded holes for mounting. This could be mounted to the underside of a gun shell or potentially be put inside the area where the mechanical plunger is normally housed. It Comes in 5- and 12-volt varieties, making it pc power friendly. A metal plate for it to bang into and a wire feeding 12 volts to it from a relay in your cab is all that's really needed.

Anyway these are just thoughts giving me a rough plan of attack for when my stuff comes in. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

RandyT:
If you don't mind a bit of soldering, hotmelt and have a remote which you no longer care is functional in it's original form, the Nyko is very hackable. I suspect other shells are as well. There are some pretty nice ones coming out of China, but they may not meet the "toy gun" requirements where you live. It looks like they are doing their best to make them compliant, as they are now available in solid bright colors for places where that might be a requirement.

The Nyko shells come apart quite easily and there is a fair amount of open space inside for playing. The only slightly tricky part is popping off the grip panel on the side with the screws, as there are a couple more underneath.

I'm still working out a few details, but the big picture with the Nyko is that forward portion of the trigger mech can be cut off and the original remote trigger can be removed for a handy wiring exit from the remote body, though a drill may still be necessary. From there, it's just a matter of using some good hotmelt to put your trigger switch of choice in the correct spot and attaching the wires between the PCB and whichever switches you want to be accessible at locations other than the top of the gun. In most cases, this will be only the main trigger, a reload button, and a secondary fire button. Any other buttons which might be mapped are fine where they are for 95% of most use cases. The spring tension on the trigger is nice and only needs a little silicone/white lithium grease to smooth it out.

It would also be necessary to add a means of getting 3vDC to remote. I opted to add an inexpensive, enclosed battery compartment to the flat on the underside front area. Surprisingly, it doesn't look too bad there and it's very accessible. But one could go crazy and build in a rechargeable battery with a tiny buck converter and charging circuit if they wanted to be fancy. There are even 3v LiFePo CR123A batteries out there with a micro-USB connection for direct charging. My only concern with these would be capacity, but they would work.

Another approach for buttons would be to use one of the newer XBOX controllers (or preferably a tiny, compatible BT controller) paired to the PC and holding it in the off-hand for extra functions, provided the app you are using allows for mapping multiple controllers as one.

Doing things this way keeps everything wireless, which is one of the main reasons I like this approach to the lightgun controller problem. The only hitch at the moment is the somewhat spotty recognition of the buttons in some applications, which is a bit in limbo if not using vJoy (which I prefer not to use due to the extra lag). One of the emulators I tested would strangely recognize the A and B buttons and the directional pad, but none of the others, and my preference would be to not mess up the function of the directionals. So, I'm holding off a bit on other permanent buttons until I have a better idea of what might be coming down the pike from the author.

*Edit* Fusselkroete is aware of the buttons situation in the mouse plugin and already has plans to address it. His todo list on this is pretty long, but I expect it will be remedied with some time. He also gave me some better insight on the sliders than I had before. The reports per second cap can actually increase performance if adjusted properly. Even very fast systems may benefit from setting this to a lower value, as it places a cap on the frequency of reports sent to vJoy for processing. i.e. a fast system may still have limited resources allocated to those functions, so it can still be detrimental to overburden them with unnecessary data. My takeaway on that is to keep the report frequency only as high as is necessary for smooth gameplay, especially if using vJoy to translate the data. Anything over 60 reports per second probably isn't necessary anyway.

Howard_Casto:
Here's the thing though. You might not like using vJoy, but you are going to use vJoy. Mame will not accept simulated mouse movements at all, full stop. It MUST be a simulated joystick. Also a lot of modern (ish) pc gun games support two joysticks out of the box for two player mode but not two mice.

Personally, I could care less about a wireless solution. The novelty of not having a tether wears off pretty quickly once you realize it limits you to the wiimotes puny rumble motor for force feedback and having to constantly worry about battery levels. My thought was to make the tether removable.... wireless if you want it, but honestly, I can't see a scenario where I would need to go full wireless.

I don't have any problems with hacking up a wiimote personally, but I'm trying to think of solutions that are going to make this as turnkey as possible. One thing that hacking might help is a solenoid mount. If the batteries were removed and re-routed (or external power fed in) that would leave a rather large cavity for mounting the solenoid. Honestly the bottom of a wiimote's pcb is pretty flat except for the b trigger and the battery terminals so removing the bottom of the housing would free up a lot of space.

I have the nyko perfect shot and honestly, as good as it is, it has issues. The main one is the handle is too thick... it just feels wrong. Another thing is that the orange band that holds the wiimote in place tends to break off. Honestly though all the shells are pretty ok but I'm trying to figure out which one I'm willing to spend my time making an adapter for so others can easily use it. The one I linked to is cheap and readily available. I can still make one for the perfect shot since I already have one though.

Howard_Casto:
So what about larger shells for terminator 2 and the like?

I really don't know what to look for but these can be had for around $20.

https://www.halloweencostumes.com/toy-uzi-9mm-machine-gun.html

With this size you could even add a cordless drill battery and keep it wireless with recoil!

it'd be nice to find something this seize that's more wiimote friendly in terms of mounting.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on December 27, 2022, 08:07:22 pm ---Here's the thing though. You might not like using vJoy, but you are going to use vJoy. Mame will not accept simulated mouse movements at all, full stop. It MUST be a simulated joystick. Also a lot of modern (ish) pc gun games support two joysticks out of the box for two player mode but not two mice.

--- End quote ---

This is of course, mostly correct. One will always need to deliver the application, or the combination of emulator+game, the input it is looking for. While vJoy is common and it works, it may not be the best or only means of getting to that point. And while I personally don't care if any title or method supports 2-player simultaneous use, I understand how important that is for many. I'd probably have a different opinion if I actually played alongside a skilled player, but I always felt bad when playing alongside less-skilled players because I would usually be stealing their targets to keep from losing my own lives. Therefore, I tend to play solo.

--- Quote ---Personally, I could care less about a wireless solution. The novelty of not having a tether wears off pretty quickly once you realize it limits you to the wiimotes puny rumble motor for force feedback and having to constantly worry about battery levels. My thought was to make the tether removable.... wireless if you want it, but honestly, I can't see a scenario where I would need to go full wireless.

--- End quote ---

Nothing wrong with this either. But personally, as someone who has shot pistols of much larger caliber than a .22, most if not all motors and solenoids are clicky, noisy gimmicks which don't add much to the experience. The one exception in my opinion is the motor in a game like LA:MachineGuns, which is so large and heavy that it literally shakes the player when shooting. Of course, they are also mounted to a cabinet.

My monitor is 5' from where I "shoot" and I do find the cable distracting and annoying to manage and store between sessions. If one has pets or small kids who like to run around, they can also be problem. Still, if one needs more power for add-ons, there are few practical alternatives. I've never had issues with cables connecting things like gamepads. But on something like a gun controller, where the controller is the physical object being manipulated for interaction, a cable just feels wrong.

--- Quote ---I don't have any problems with hacking up a wiimote personally, but I'm trying to think of solutions that are going to make this as turnkey as possible.

--- End quote ---

I'm afraid it will never really be "turn-key" as an integrated, all-in-one unit unless one is happy pushing buttons on top of the gun. Outside of that, the options for relocation are a foot pedal (or two, again probably with wires) or a tiny add-on gaming controller. At some point, Fusselkroete will probably add simulated off-screen reload, which will help a lot, but still won't eliminate the need for button re-location entirely.

--- Quote ---I have the nyko perfect shot and honestly, as good as it is, it has issues. The main one is the handle is too thick... it just feels wrong. Another thing is that the orange band that holds the wiimote in place tends to break off.

--- End quote ---

The grip on the Nyko has roughly the same circumference as the GC1 and GC2. It's thicker, but less deep and somewhat less contoured. I don't find it awkward to hold. What does affect the feel more than anything is the "pull" which occurs as the trigger mechanism bottoms out on the remote. Unfortunately, all shells will exhibit this behavior if they use this type of mechanism, as it offers no over-travel on the trigger. Again, this is where adding an actual proper switch to the assembly will make a huge difference.

RE: Orange thing

Heh. That's one thing I forgot about in the disassembly. That orange part needs to be separated from one of the halves to split them. It's actually kind of finicky to pop loose without breaking the nub it pivots on, but it's not too bad. If one is going to dedicate a remote to the gun controller and tether it with a cable, it should be possible to provide power through the appropriate pins on the nunchuk pass-through in the shell. So, no need to ever remove it in that configuration. In that sense, the Nyko is better than those where the port is located at the top section of the gun.

I'm actually working on something which will accommodate just about any "bell or whistle" one would want to put together. But it's a WIP and I want to wait until I'm sure it's functional before I show it off. :)

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