Why use emulators when theres RetroArch?

[abispac]

Ok , so lets change the topic a little bit. In your opinion, Whats the best emulator for 15khz monitors?   We know Groovymame is best for Arcade in general.

1.- Nes
2.- Snes
3.- Sega (master,cd and 32x)

Feel free to add more, but those are the only ones i care.

[haynor666]

I use RA only when I have to. ST-V emulation (I hope that recent Mednafen addition will change this) and some other emus that are simply better than other emulators or when standalone emulator is worse than RA core (flycast works better for me in RA). Generally it's configuration and usage is really annoying, specifically when I use super resolutions.

I simply find groovymame (or mame in general) to be better choice for arcade. Sadly for console mame still needs lots of work.

AS for list here are best emulators that use or used with CRTs:

For NES try MESEN thought I didn't check standalone emulator usage with CRTs yet but RA core exits. I prefer emulation due lack of RGB from NES but when I mod my NES I'll abandom this emu.
For SNES - bsnes but again - I didn't check standalone emulator usage with CRTs yet but RA core exits. I use real hardware with exception for some games with custom chips that I cannot play with Super Everdrive.
For Megadrive/Master System - for years I use Kefa Fusion, it worked with CRTs but rely on ddraw fuctions and it's not updated for years. I don't how it runs on Windows 10  so these days it's probably to stick to RA core of blast'em. I use real hardware now (Megadrive, Master System (Master System games also works through adapter or using Mega Everdrive), 32X and Mega CD)

For Naomi/Naomi 2/Atomiswave - flycast (nulldc successor) but like I mentioned earlier RA core work better for me with super resolutions for example standalone flycast does not want to remember rotation option and I cannot force it to run correctly from command line.
For ST-V ( as for yesterday) - Kronos RA core. Some games are faster and can be played at full speed. Time to test mednafen
For PS1 - Mednafen worked for me best but I prefer real hardware. Many people hovewer are using RA Beetle PSX core. It's has hardware 3D acceleration version.
For Saturn - also Mednafen but I prefer real hardware.
For PC Engine/PC-Engine CD I used for years Ootake. At that time I use only native resolutions. I didn't tested super resolutions but Mednafen seems to be better especially for running from command line/frontend.
For old PC hardware - for most adventure games and strategies it would be better to stick to DOSBox RA corefor a sake of simple use but for platform games and better accuracy I would stick to PCem mod from psakhis (tested on CRTs)
For GameBoy/GameBoy Color - BGB, all others failed to work correctly on CRT with native and/or super resolution (including RetroArch). I need exact square picture on screen just like real gameboy screen is but many emulators does not wan't to set proper aspect ratio. Mednafen failed in terms of bugs. RA is right now untested.

Usefull resource - http://nonmame.retrogames.com/

[donluca]

Donluca and 'Kaufen's replies are plain arcade-centric whereas the original poster was asking about console emulators, I'd say.

Quite the contrary to be honest.
I was addressing more the emulation situation as a whole.

[psakhis]

According to my tests and preferences:
 Nintendo -> Mesen RA core
 Super Nintendo -> Bsnes RA core
 SMS/Genesis -> Genesis plus gx RA core
 Dreamcast/Naomi/Naomi2/Atomis -> Demul but here i can doubt with Redream/Flycast in some cases
 PS1 -> Mednafen on emu4crt
 Saturn/ST-V -> Mednafen on emu4crt
 PCE/PCFX -> Mednafen on emucrt
 PC -> Dosbox Pure RA / PCem4crt, PCem4crt is more accurate but with RA you can savestates, so it depends
 Gamecube / Wii -> Dolphin standalone
 PS2 -> PCSX2 standalone
 PSP -> PPSPP standalone
 Jaguar -> Phoenix standalone
 3DO -> Phoenix standalone
 N64 -> Project64 with parallel plugin standalone
 GBA -> Mgba RA core
 PC98 -> Np2kai RA core
 X68k -> Winx68k 15khz patched standalone
 MSX -> Bluemsx RA core
 
Ofc groovymame for all arcade, neogeo and in some cases works well for x68k, msx, etc.

[donluca]

I can't believe it's 2022 and people are still using Genesis Plus GX.

I really need to talk to the developer of blast'em and see if he can implement support for switchres so it can output native res and refresh rate.

[B2K24]

GroovyMAME runs all the consoles I care about like NES, SNES, Genesis, ETC. Plus, some of the consoles have cheats too. I don't really see a reason to use other emulators when I'm gaming on my CRTs.

I have a real N64 plus Everdrive X7 so that takes care of that

Software lists and GM are just soooo convenient. I use a N64 joypad connected to my PC with a USB converter and have GM menu buttons configed to my pad.
Best lazy gaming ever while kicking back

[abispac]

GroovyMAME runs all the consoles I care about like NES, SNES, Genesis, ETC. Plus, some of the consoles have cheats too. I don't really see a reason to use other emulators when I'm gaming on my CRTs.

I have a real N64 plus Everdrive X7 so that takes care of that

Software lists and GM are just soooo convenient. I use a N64 joypad connected to my PC with a USB converter and have GM menu buttons configed to my pad.
Best lazy gaming ever while kicking back

but everytime i run nes and snes it says emulation is not perfect...

[haynor666]

Because it's not perfect really. Better to stick with other emulators as mentioned already.

Just because any kind emulators will not be 100% perfect I stick to real hardware when I can. So far I forced to use emus for:

Atari VCS/2600 - personally it's too primitive system for me these days but sometimes I play some game for nostalgia. I have real hardware but video output is really ugly
Atari Jaguar - plan to emulate because because I don't have real console or flashcart. Console is expensive but not to many games to play
Atari ST - there was a plan but due to the fact that 99,99% games are on amiga and 99,99% are better on amiga I skipped this system

PC-FX - I don't have real hardware I don't have any plans to buy, I'm interested only in two games

Nintendo Entertainment System - lack of RGB but I have real console and Everdrive so in the future then I finally mod my NES I move to real hardware
Super Nintendo Entertainment System (only for some games with customs chips like Mega Man X3, Metal Falcon, I hope to upgrade to FXPAK Pro in the future)
Nintendo 64 - lack of RGB so emu for now, besides I don't have Everdrive for this console, some games that I like I have but in german version :/
GameBoy - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag. GB games can be played on SNES using Super Game Boy and I have it but I don't have Everdrive for GB
GameBoy Color, GameBoy Advance - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag even if I have GameBoy Player for Gamecube. All games are working in interlace mode with stretching which I really don't like. I have some chinese flashcart but I never tested with GameBoy player
NDS, 3DS - I plan to emulate for better display but those systems have two screen (not to comfortable when I have one CRT rotated for vertical games). Also screen with touch sensor had to be simulated with mouse. For now I use real hardware and flashcart

GameGear - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag and blur. Even if I have console I don't have any flashcart


I use real hardware:
C64 (s-video is ok for me)
Amiga 500, Amiga 1200
CD32/CDTV (barely used, CD32 does not have RGB, it's better to play on Amiga 1200 using WHDload)
Philips CD-i
Panasonic 3DO (s-video sadly, I hope to get RGB version someday)
Atari 130XE (s-video is ok for me)
Amstrad CPC6128
Master System, Megadrive, Sega 32X, Mega CD (but I hope to upgrade to Mega Everdrive Pro and left CD extension)
Saturn (mod), Dreamcast (mod)
GameCube, Wii
PSX (mod), PS2 (soft mod), PS3
Xbox, Xbox360
PC Engine CD (I use SSD3 actually, it emulated CD so there is no need to attach CD extension)

PC hardware - that depends. Old low res 2D games usually looks better on CRT (platform games like Turrican II, Jim Power,  etc. and adventure games like Monkey Island 2, Discworld) but hires games (Syndicate, Settlers using SVGA mode, Discworld II) I prefer run on real hardware through VGA CRT either using DOSBox or straight on real hardware

[Recapnation]

So many systems and no mention of the X-68000 or the PC-8801 Mk-II SR? Much better than all the Ataris and the Commodores put together, no kidding. The former should have decent emulation on MAME these days (keep in mind that not all games were lo-res, though); WIN X68k (even with Calamity's patch) had many games with flaws and lag was too high there. For the 88SR I think that both, M88 and Project X88000 are 15-kHz-friendly. M88 is discontinued but an English version is around, if I recall. The X-1 [Turbo] is also an interesting computer with the best versions of some 8-bit classics and some exclusive titles. MAME's emulation was preliminary when I checked, but I don't think there's any other valid option for 15-kHz (?). Then there's the PC-88 VA with too few games to really care, but 88VA Eternal Grafx was 15-kHz-compatible as well, for the curious. The MSX 2 [Plus] is not bad with MAME's emulation, either (and the MSX Turbo-R as well?).

GameBoy Advance - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag even if I have GameBoy Player for Gamecube. All games are working in interlace mode with stretching which I really don't like.

Check the Swiss project for the GCN. Never had the console so I can't tell you much, but it's sure you can use non-scaled 15-kHz progressive GBA visuals with it. Doesn't seem to be a better option in general than WIN emulators or Mister, though.

Donluca and 'Kaufen's replies are plain arcade-centric whereas the original poster was asking about console emulators, I'd say.

Quite the contrary to be honest.
I was addressing more the emulation situation as a whole.

My mistake, sorry. I think I read author names too fast that day. Too much text for a forum thread, I guess.

[schmerzkaufen]

^ I focused on arcades as I explained for the sake of avoiding drifting topics and because that's the primary reason for me and people being here as GM users tbh,
and because the global issue directly related to it is that RA encouraged people using old MAME builds/cores
as well as the wrongest way to mitigate lag (run-ahead), but that's a valid criticism for other emus anyway.

Some RA users would love to minimize the issue and isolate critics, but no it's not just one or two little problems that would exist solely in the eyes of a handful of nitpicky old grouchs.
No.
The fact that they don't uderstand how RA hurts the scene of emu development and games preservation with its cores policy, nor the struggle against lag and why run-ahead's the wrong way, the implications and why that matters for fair play too, is their sin, not ours.

And yes it fckn infuriates me that they're literally invading each and every community (not an exaggeration) with RA propaganda, 'helping' people learn about it and therefore pushing the decline of more worthy emulation and preservation.
Makes me lose faith in humanity* gamers as a whole.




* That is an exaggeration here lol, yes, but realistically the mindset of libretro and the RA demographics is completely in tune with the present era's dominant 'zoomer anti-philosophy' as I'd call it, while the old guard even being technically in the right, has made sure to make its side as closed, repulsive and hostile as possible in reaction (and tbh are in part responsible for the emergence of RA even if they will never admit it). While it's not something we can just reduce to age, it's a genuine case of radically different ways of thinking and relationship to society.
I'm a realist, I said it : the war is over, the RA party and its ways largely won, and there's nothing we can do against that, it is too late for teaching and dialogue. Good emulation will only continue to live through the FPGA dev craze and a niche of subsisting MAME and other standalone emus contributors and users. A surviving niche/minority is not a success, it's a defeat ffs.
I know many heads of the niche crowd refuse to admit it, and blame only RA and kin + end users, but they didn't take action to bridge the gaps. Easy to forget a major part of RA users were MAME and other emus users at first, eh? Though these days anyway MAME don't give a rat's ass about all that and are happy in their bubble.

[haynor666]

So many systems and no mention of the X-68000 or the PC-8801 Mk-II SR? Much better than all the Ataris and the Commodores put together, no kidding. The former should have decent emulation on MAME these days (keep in mind that not all games were lo-res, though); WIN X68k (even with Calamity's patch) had many games with flaws and lag was too high there. For the 88SR I think that both, M88 and Project X88000 are 15-kHz-friendly. M88 is discontinued but an English version is around, if I recall. The X-1 [Turbo] is also an interesting computer with the best versions of some 8-bit classics and some exclusive titles. MAME's emulation was preliminary when I checked, but I don't think there's any other valid option for 15-kHz (?). Then there's the PC-88 VA with too few games to really care, but 88VA Eternal Grafx was 15-kHz-compatible as well, for the curious. The MSX 2 [Plus] is not bad with MAME's emulation, either (and the MSX Turbo-R as well?).

Most of  these systems are from my childhood (owned or owned by my friends) so that's why I'm using them - NES (actually it's clone - Pegasus),  GB, GBC, GBA, Atari 130XE, C64, Amiga 500, Amiga 1200 (model from November 1992 so I own from beginning of it's market life), Megadrive PSX, PS2. Many system I discovered later (PC Engine)or simply I  didn't access (SNES, N64) because none of my friends had one.

Most of games that I know on X68000 are simply arcade conversions. I didn't find so far too many games to justify system emulation not to mention buying it
As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

GameBoy Advance - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag even if I have GameBoy Player for Gamecube. All games are working in interlace mode with stretching which I really don't like.

Check the Swiss project for the GCN. Never had the console so I can't tell you much, but it's sure you can use non-scaled 15-kHz progressive GBA visuals with it. Doesn't seem to be a better option in general than WIN emulators or Mister, though.

It seems tool is not designed to run GBA games using GameCube. GBA player is almost perfect but forcing stretched picture in interlace mode does not look to good. On the other hand since it's official Nintendo addon we safely assume it's perfect - just like GameBoy Player for SNES has all GBA hardware built in.

[Recapnation]

^ I focused on arcades as I explained for the sake of avoiding drifting topics and because that's the primary reason for me and people being here as GM users tbh,
and because the global issue directly related to it is that RA encouraged people using old MAME builds/cores
as well as the wrongest way to mitigate lag (run-ahead), but that's a valid criticism for other emus anyway.

Some RA users would love to minimize the issue and isolate critics, but no it's not just one or two little problems that would exist solely in the eyes of a handful of nitpicky old grouchs.
No.
The fact that they don't uderstand how RA hurts the scene of emu development and games preservation with its cores policy, nor the struggle against lag and why run-ahead's the wrong way, the implications and why that matters for fair play too, is their sin, not ours.

I don't like the RA project. The way they've pissed actual emulator devs and their eager to make money no matter how should suffice. But you can't blame them for destroying fair play since fair play was destroyed way before RA, as I pointed. The run-ahead feature is toxic, but it's just another tool in the hacking box. And the people like hacking as there's never been proper gaming education. Infinite lives codes succeeded for a reason. Fortunately, RA has its uses, particularly for 15-kHz displays. If the fight is over, so be it.

Good emulation will only continue to live through the FPGA dev craze and a niche of subsisting MAME and other standalone emus contributors and users.

Mister and FPGA will get one day run-ahead or anything the people demand and is technically possible, I'm sorry to say. As of now, the Double Dragon core (by the guy who cares the most about arcades accuracy, should I add), already has an option to remove the slowdown.

Most of games that I know on X68000 are simply arcade conversions. I didn't find so far too many games to justify system emulation not to mention buying it

Your research likely wasn't enough? In release order:

Code: [Select]

THUNDER FORCE II
GENOCIDE
ZAVAS
MID-GARTS GOLD
METAL SIGHT
KNIGHT ARMS
WANDERERS FROM YS
LAGOON
VALUSA NO FUKUSHUU
GENJUUKI
NAIOUS
SOL-FEACE
NEURAL GEAR
EMERALD DRAGON
SCORPIUS
PHALANX
ARCUS ODYSSEY
YS
OLTEUS II
AQUALES
LAST BATTALION
CODE ZERO
GENOCIDE 2
STAR TRADER
CHO-JIN
DIE BAHNWELT
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE
KU 2
AKUMAJOU DRACULA
COTTON
NEMESIS '90 KAI
KEEPER
MAD STALKER FULL METAL FORCE
This is only counting good official releases and leaving apart untranslated stuff and arcade ports (some of which got improved BGM and are worth checking out, but whatever). Many quality and unique unofficial titles to pick as well.

As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

Your lose, then, I guess.

It seems tool is not designed to run GBA games using GameCube. GBA player is almost perfect but forcing stretched picture in interlace mode does not look to good.

The tool does indeed allow 15-kHz progressive for GBA games with the GB Player:

https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=esDHMw17Es0

Check also Game Boy Interface.

On the other hand since it's official Nintendo addon we safely assume it's perfect

Wrong assumption. There's prominent stutter due to the different refresh rates between the GCN and the GBA. Hence my recommendation to generally use Mister.

[schmerzkaufen]

I'm sorry to say. As of now, the Double Dragon core (by the guy who cares the most about arcades accuracy, should I add), already has an option to remove the slowdown.

The f...what ? 

If there was one project with people bitching it is above everything else - THE - accurate emulation ever, it was that one.

Imagining run-ahead in there next, the ultimate heresy, is too much. 

EDIT: I am myself pretty tolerant in regards to emulator optional features, in a healthy world it's people's problem if they use these or not, as long as they don't anymore when time comes to play for real or compete with others, or to report issues to the devs. With such guidelines it's fine.
No need to tell me that's not what happens.
But on FPGA ? come on. The thought is so silly.

[Recapnation]

If there was one project with people bitching it is above everything else - THE - accurate emulation ever, it was that one.

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

[haynor666]

THUNDER FORCE II - I have Megadrive version
GENOCIDE - I played PC Engine CD version and I don't like this game too much
GENOCIDE 2 - the same situation but I played SNES version, maybe I didn't play to long, is it good ?
ZAVAS - not interested (these days I don't play jRPG too much, especially when are in japanese laguage only)
MID-GARTS GOLD - interesting, I'll check it
METAL SIGHT - another Galaxy Force/ Space Harrier clone
KNIGHT ARMS - I've seen this long time ago but I don't remember how good it was
WANDERERS FROM YS - so many version I've seen, any better than SNES/Megadrive? In english ?
LAGOON - almost the same as SNES version
VALUSA NO FUKUSHUU - ups, somehow I miss this one, interesting
GENJUUKI (Undead line) - I have mixed feeling about X68000 port, for years I played Megadrive version, is it better ?
NAIOUS - I don't remember this one
SOL-FEACE - I have Megadrive version but X68000 version was first and better visually but You know I'm lazy, I prefer to get cartridge from my shelf
NEURAL GEAR - I didn't like it
EMERALD DRAGON - japan only RPG so I wasn't interested, PC Engine version exists
SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better
ARCUS ODYSSEY - I never played X68000 version but it's (at least visually) almost identical to Megadrive version
YS - remake and in hires mode :/
OLTEUS II - on my list
AQUALES - on my list
LAST BATTALION - the same problem as with Daioh/Shienryu games - an updated (!?!?!) port of Override from PC Engine
CODE ZERO - I think I've seen this one
STAR TRADER - again, I miss this one :/
CHO-JIN - I'm not sure if I play this one
DIE BAHNWELT - I din't see this one, top down shooter, might be interesting but it's hires mode
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list
KU 2 - looks like I miss this one
AKUMAJOU DRACULA - since I have Castlevania Chronicles on PS1 I didn't bother to test it. Original version is on CD
COTTON - updated slighly with comparison to arcade version
NEMESIS '90 KAI - indeed great
KEEPER - I played only SNES version
MAD STALKER FULL METAL FORCE - I know this game, recently released on Megadrive but I've played on PC Engine port

This is only counting good official releases and leaving apart untranslated stuff and arcade ports (some of which got improved BGM and are worth checking out, but whatever). Many quality and unique unofficial titles to pick as well.

As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

Your lose, then, I guess.

Proabably You have right, someday I'll probably get to this system games.

It seems tool is not designed to run GBA games using GameCube. GBA player is almost perfect but forcing stretched picture in interlace mode does not look to good.

The tool does indeed allow 15-kHz progressive for GBA games with the GB Player:

https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=esDHMw17Es0

Check also Game Boy Interface.

On the other hand since it's official Nintendo addon we safely assume it's perfect

Wrong assumption. There's prominent stutter due to the different refresh rates between the GCN and the GBA. Hence my recommendation to generally use Mister.

I don't remember any stuttering. Maybe the speed up/slow down games to match GameCube refresh rate. Worth to check it. Anyway to run this tool I had to modify GC with Xeno.

[Calamity]

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

So true. To be fair, old MAME development wasn't Patreon-propelled, which probably doesn't mean anything to accuracy but at least it does to the epic.

That's btw the epic that's lost when somebody wraps you into a "core". And then calls the games "content", as if they were some Netflix's excretion.

[schmerzkaufen]

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

I feel obligated to nuance this, GroovyMAME is pretty much the embodiment of many things the people asked for, and they were legit right to.

If you go as - best example being - in MAME's shoes and look down on the user base for long, saying all them end users say is dumb crap, antagonize them, then you lose many to opportunists like RA, who will somehow give them what they want or rather erzatz features crossing lines that shouldn't have been.

Too easy to blame people who were powerless anyway, the demographics of end users are not developers, they don't take the decisions. TBH I've seen too many devs saying BS that shows they don't know anything from the world of gaming, and when called out on it the only ever reaction is to be hypocritical, and over and over deflect and blame everything wrong on the user base, even to the point as looking down on gamers as a whole. How fckn stupidly out of this world is that coming from arcade emu devs and so-called preservationists ? so gamers culture is fake ? only devs know ? how conceited.

That has been an unsightly show for a very long time, and I'm not sure it is random people I'd blame most for the negative consequences. Developers are often the greatest drama queens in the scene, the moment any comment isn't unconditional praise and a hint of criticism appears, they explode. But no one ever from the end user's crowd ever put a knife under their throats, nor ever had the power to do so anyway.

I'm all on the dev's side for the respect of the very essential principles, even though we could say that some are sacred, I'm not blindly supporting extremes like it's a religion VS heretics situation, because it's really not what happens despite the manipulative narratives.

People ask devs for stuff, some sound, some stupid. It's normal. Devs then control the output anyway, not end users. It's normal.
Devs who did tons of drama out of this and denied any legitimacy to even a fraction of the user base's own narratives, ever-demonizing them regardless of the topic, are just plain self-centered arses standing on no higher moral ground than the bad users.
In the case of MAME, they worked at ruining their reputation as hard as the bad users teaming with RA did.

Now, I don't follow what happens in the case of the FPGA scene, but as far as I would believe what you say is indeed what's happening, I won't judge on the precise matter.
As I said before though even if people ask things, it's the dev's power to decide what makes it or not into his work.
It is possible to offer features that don't do harm to development and preservation nor geopardize gameplay fairness when required, if it wasn't possible then Groovy, or Wolf, wouldn't exist.

I agree though that in the case of the FPGA projects it indeed sounds very incongruous. 

[donluca]

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

So true. To be fair, old MAME development wasn't Patreon-propelled, which probably doesn't mean anything to accuracy but at least it does to the epic.

That's btw the epic that's lost when somebody wraps you into a "core". And then calls the games "content", as if they were some Netflix's excretion.

I partially disagree.
Those kind of people will still stick to ARM SBCs such as RasPi + Retroarch and similar solutions.

When you're doing a MiSTer core you know that your work will be put under a microscope and people will be dissecting it and comparing it to real hardware so they have to be careful, they can't just slap a stack of hacks which barely work and call it a day because they're gonna get called out and people will bandwagon and your work will be, if not discarded, then probably not as widely used.

The bar over the years has been raised by several orders of magnitude.

We went from "OMG it works! It has no sound or music, it runs at 5 fps but I'm playing NES on my PC!" to "I really wish this emu would be more efficient so I could run it full speed on my PC" to finally "I want an emulator which delivers a result I personally can't distinguish from my real console* ". And since some years, buzzwords such as "cycle accurate" and similar have started to gain traction so there are a subset of people that really care and people using FPGAs (ie: they have to pay for, IMHO, pretty expensive hardware and invest a considerable amount of time setting everything up) which are going to scrutinize your work very closely and won't set for anything less than perfection**.

*: this varies from person to person of course. But in general, it means "me, amateur gamer, can't tell a difference"

**: This means people will put FPGA and real console side by side and look if timing is correct and if there are graphical/sound glitches.

[dmckean]

Old MAME was in every way a better project than the 20 years of hostility that followed. I'm looking for a great end user experience first and foremost. Preservation is just a bonus and should never be the focus. It's all about playing video games and having fun.

[Recapnation]

I feel obligated to nuance this, GroovyMAME is pretty much the embodiment of many things the people asked for, and they were legit right to.

Which people? A dozen of enthusiasts who kept their CRTs? That's never a wide userbase. Nor it actually is the several hundreds it got today who aren't asking for much as the main job was done when they came. You're just an exception.

If you go as - best example being - in MAME's shoes and look down on the user base for long

I've seen so many silly petitions coupled with uncivil tones that I kind of find easy to sympathize with MAME devs. We indeed weren't so lucky that these talented devs actually liked video games much (and the ones who did a bit quickly moved away?), but... we indeed were so lucky that these talented people without much interest in the games themselves dedicated so much effort and time to the cause. I actually believe that both conditions (loving the games and loving game disintegration) have to be mutually exclusive.

**: This means people will put FPGA and real console side by side and look if timing is correct and if there are graphical/sound glitches.

And they're found out (by the few that do this) and not much is done so many times? I don't know, check the Neo Geo core status, or how the Cave games are being added. Check how they got the most capable man in regards to arcade games accuracy dedicating his efforts to the Neo Geo Pocket (a handheld which owes basically all its merits to its particular D-pad, so has little point on Mister). We're clearly in a phase now of getting there in as much as possible, not as well as possible, and that's concurrent with the project's popularity. Yeah, I guess there's a higher level of exigency today and devs listen more (thanks to patronization, let's not fool ourselves), but it's far from optimal.

THUNDER FORCE II - I have Megadrive version

It's a downgrade. It's a bit better balanced (easier, shorter), but it has less stages and simplfied visuals and sound.

GENOCIDE - I played PC Engine CD version and I don't like this game too much

You won't be missing much, then. It's likely the worst entry in the list.

GENOCIDE 2 - the same situation but I played SNES version, maybe I didn't play to long, is it good ?

It's definitely much better (than both, the SFC version and the predecessor), but not a must.

ZAVAS - not interested (these days I don't play jRPG too much, especially when are in japanese laguage only)

EMERALD DRAGON - japan only RPG so I wasn't interested, PC Engine version exists

Glodia's games never are your usual JRPG and combats are really strategic there. The PCE version of ED (like the SFC one) is totally different. But yep, Japanese only for now, I'm afraid.

KNIGHT ARMS - I've seen this long time ago but I don't remember how good it was

It's ultimately an average/decent game but its historical context is something else. It's Thunder Force's creator first action game right after leaving Techno Soft and forming up his own company, so he tried to awe everybody with a unique approach which seemlessly concatenate Space Harrier-like phases (with full faux 360º rotation) with side-scrolling ones. It also has compatibility with analog controllers.

WANDERERS FROM YS - so many version I've seen, any better than SNES/Megadrive? In english ?

Never played those, but it gotta be as at least the MD version is based on the X68 version and the SFC one had a subpar developer. It's a remake (of the 88SR original) by Falcom themselves, and their only X68 game at that. Only in Japanese and it's protected, though. If you want an English-language console port, the PCE is the one to pick as the music there has no equal.

LAGOON - almost the same as SNES version

As much as SFC Street Fighter II is to the arcade game.

GENJUUKI (Undead line) - I have mixed feeling about X68000 port, for years I played Megadrive version, is it better ?

Sure thing. They're very different -- you'll find Genjuuki to be a glorified remake with lots of new stuff of the splendid MSX2 original while the MD version is a very compromised take in every regard 'cept for the bosses.

ARCUS ODYSSEY - I never played X68000 version but it's (at least visually) almost identical to Megadrive version

It's one of the closest X68-MD ports by Wolf Team, but like the others (Granada, Axis, which I forgot to add, and Sol-Feace) it has more content and better visuals/music as well. Granada, I actually prefer the MD port, though.

DIE BAHNWELT - I din't see this one, top down shooter, might be interesting but it's hires mode

It's Alien Syndrome meets Ys, kind of. A quite special one. Hi-res, but what's the matter.

YS - remake and in hires mode :/

A good remake indeed, despite all the camp it throws at you. Easier than the original, but it got awesome levels of care by the authors -- unique NPC throughout all the quest, improved save system so that no disk change nor keyboard is necessary, much better collision detection thanks to the higher resolution. Falcom's own remake exists and is better, but overlooking this is a mistake.

LAST BATTALION - the same problem as with Daioh/Shienryu games - an updated (!?!?!) port of Override from PC Engine

A deep revision of Override, indeed. It's a Sting game, and these people never made a turd.

AKUMAJOU DRACULA - since I have Castlevania Chronicles on PS1 I didn't bother to test it. Original version is on CD

The port in Chronicles has some issues which make of it the poorman edition (and I'm saying this being it the one I own as well, even if it's still sealed). The only problem/disadvantage with the X68 original was the lack of a 15-kHz mode, but that's automatically solved with MAME.

SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better
OLTEUS II - on my list
AQUALES - on my list
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list

So that's not enough to "justify emulation" or what's your list for?

As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

Your lose, then, I guess.

Proabably You have right, someday I'll probably get to this system games.

Just remember not to mistake the PC-8801 with the PC-8801 Mk-II SR. It's much like the MSX and the MSX 2 case -- entirely different things despite the retrocompatibility (and the people's claims). The 88SR is where the good stuff resides.

I don't remember any stuttering. Maybe the speed up/slow down games to match GameCube refresh rate.

Apparently, only stutter. The Swiss hack halved it somehow, but still there, they say.

[donluca]

Check how they got the most capable man in regards to arcade games accuracy dedicating his efforts to the Neo Geo Pocket

I'll just throw this thought in: maybe that particular, very skilled developer, has an actual interest in that platform and he personally enjoys tackling it, otherwise he wouldn't have put it in his polls.

And yes, money helps. surprisedPikachuFace.jpg

We've been spoiled by almost three decades of free emulators where people have put in an insane amount of effort, completely out of sheer passion, interest and challenge. Were the results perfect? Of course not.
Did they have the documentation, raw processing power and tools we have today? Guess what, they didn't.
And that didn't stop them helping the community to understand those platforms better and lying down the foundation of the next generation of emulators.

All of the current emulation scene stands on the shoulders of giants.
We should never forget that.

And, for that matter, I don't see anything wrong with people actually using money as incentive to drive them forward.
Especially if we end up getting better and better results.

Preservation is just a bonus and should never be the focus. It's all about playing video games and having fun.

Get out.

[Recapnation]

I fail to get how anything I said opposes anything you're saying. That particular developer had at least as much interest in NGP as in many arcade boards (not really, but whatever), yet the people asked for the former. And if they did it with money, I have nothing to object -- my mention was just a reminder.

[donluca]

I genuinely think that everytime we post something on a forum there are probably several things lost in translation due to either language barrier or to the limitation of the medium of the discussion, possibly both.

Sometimes I swear that if we would all be standing around a table having a drink and talking about these topics it would be way more chill and we would understand each other way better.

[Substring]

Except for non native english speakers who'd have a hard time keeping it up with everyone else ... Even more after a few pints 

[Zebidee]

My Thai mostly improves after some Mai Tais 

I stop worrying about the right words and just let it flow.

The common languages of gaming and booze would smooth everything out .

[haynor666]

SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better
OLTEUS II - on my list
AQUALES - on my list
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list

So that's not enough to "justify emulation" or what's your list for?

That was just a list of games to test, others I already played. I think final list on my frontend would be about 15 titles. I take a closer look on X68000, that I'm sure


As for RetroArch - it's sad that so many emulators cannot be used with super resolutions or sometimes even with native resolutions. Seems Groovymame, Mednafen mod and RetroArch are the only emulators that fully uses super resolutions.

[schmerzkaufen]

I genuinely think that everytime we post something on a forum there are probably several things lost in translation due to either language barrier or to the limitation of the medium of the discussion, possibly both.

Sometimes I swear that if we would all be standing around a table having a drink and talking about these topics it would be way more chill and we would understand each other way better.

I don't think so, there are views expressed clearly in this thread that are different and opposing, partially or totally, some reasonable and some ever stubbornly extreme, as per usual no one will move from their position. It's the same topics that have been discussed repeatedly for about 2 decades, there are like 4 or 5 if not more parties having their own take at what would be the best to do, nothing's changed. I've lost faith because it's too late anyway, it took too long because of people's egoes. Today the generations for whom it mattered the most got old and moved on, the younger don't value the same things so they won't stand up for anything in that forgotten debate they don't even understand, it's only a handful of old coots like us yelling at clouds now.

[donluca]

I don't know man, people here saying that "preservation should be a second thought" and "it's all about playing the games"... there are many like that and probably they've never even looked into the source code of any driver in MAME.

Without documentation there would be no preservation and without preservation there would be no emulation.

And MAME is basically all documentation and that's the reason it has stayed alive so long.

Despite that, look at the struggle people had when MAME moved from DOS to Windows and then the various Windows versions with all the incompatibilities... if there was no documentation we would be stuck with the original DOS version and people would need a super old PC and that means low performance and low performance means that there would be no way to properly test newer games and improve accuracy.

Being open source doesn't guarantee that MAME will run forever on whatever OS will come down the line and that's a huge issue, but thanks to the documentation there will be possibilities to start new projects.

Look at MiSTer: sure, people are doing decaps and studying the chip with powerful logic analyzers, but if there wasn't the MAME documentation already there we would have no MiSTer (and many other emulators).

I wish people would just understand the basics of computer technology, how it works and how quickly obsolete software and operating systems become.

Retroarch might be dead in 10 years time, but MAME will still live on and, even if no one will be there anymore to maintain it, the documentation will still be there for people to pick up and continue their work.

[Zebidee]

Back when I studied computer science at uni (we used an abacus and some stones), 50% of your assignments grades was based on your documentation alone. They wanted to know what you were doing, how and why (and with whom, if a partnership).

It meant you could still get a good grade even if your program didn't work. It meant you could get a pass without even writing a single line of code.

As it should be.

[ronbin]

Hi
Is there any way to use retroarch's switchres in KMS mode?
I've downloaded substring's patch from here and compiled with no issues
https://github.com/substring/packages/blob/master/package/retroarch/KMS_modeswitching.patch

But there is no switchres option in KMS mode, only in X11.

[psakhis]

Easy way is go with GroovyArcade...

On others linux distributions, you'll need major patches to sdl, kernel, etc.

[ronbin]

Easy way is go with GroovyArcade...

On others linux distributions, you'll need major patches to sdl, kernel, etc.

I can't use groovyarcade because this is an old laptop with 32 bit cpu. So I'm using 32 bit debian.
I've compiled 15khz kernel, groovymame, sdl2 and emulationstation. Everything works perfect in kms. Now I want to add some consoles with retroarch, so I've compiled latest version with substring's patch but I don't know what to do next...

[psakhis]

Everything seems correct then, try to enter the GroovyArcade Discord and comment if they can help you