Soliciting opinions: One player style CP layout adding trackball/spinner/4way

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Hey everyone, long time no check-in. I was in Saint's book back in the day w/ my MAME32QA controller and then had Northcoast mill me a professional version in '05.  Good to see things are still flowing here.

I'm looking at a potential new build, but am not finding too many examples of a *single* player setup with robotron type controls (2 8-way sticks) with 6 SF2 buttons between them and then adding a trackball, spinner, and maybe a 4-way to the mix somehow in different layouts. 

Are there any examples from folks I can peruse that you remember?  I'm having trouble visualizing how this would work since my existing CPs are relatively compact w/ their dimensions (18"x 8").  This would be a desktop controller BTW.  Thanks for any suggestions.

John IV
www.mameui.info

[BadMouth]

I don't know of any examples, but the trackball is a tall order on a single player setup.  I'd want the joysticks located to center the player with the screen, but would also want the trackball centered for bowling and golf games.  I guess if you weren't worried about bowling or golf games, the trackball could be placed to the side.

I always wanted to do a trackball panel that folded down into the front of the cab when not in use, but that won't work on a desktop.

There is the stickied thread of control panel pics:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,59359.0.html
Not sure there is anything in there that matches your criteria though.

[PL1]

I always wanted to do a trackball panel that folded down into the front of the cab when not in use, but that won't work on a desktop.

How about a standalone USB trackball that sits between the sticks and over the player buttons?

PBJ made something similar here.
- I'd use soft grippy rubber feet like these instead of metal ones for this application.





Use a Neutrik NAUSB-W-B feedthru on the back of the trackball housing if you want a removable USB cable.

 


Scott

[PL1]

I'm looking at a potential new build, but am not finding too many examples of a *single* player setup with robotron type controls (2 8-way sticks) with 6 SF2 buttons between them and then adding a trackball, spinner, and maybe a 4-way to the mix somehow in different layouts. 

Are there any examples from folks I can peruse that you remember?  I'm having trouble visualizing how this would work since my existing CPs are relatively compact w/ their dimensions (18"x 8").  This would be a desktop controller BTW.

That's too many controls to fit comfortably into that small footprint, but you could easily split it into several standalone desktop controllers.
- Twin 8-way sticks + 6 player buttons.
- Trackball + 3 player buttons -- mirror the buttons for ambidexterous play if desired. (see PBJ's trackball pic above)
- 4-way stick + (3 or 4?) player buttons -- mirror the buttons for ambidexterous play if desired.

Each controller should include basic admin buttons such as Coin, Start, Exit, and Pause.

Put an I-Pac or Arduino encoder and a Neutrik feedthru in each controller so you can use one USB cable and swap out the controllers as desired.   


Scott

[thelanranger]

I don't know of any examples, but the trackball is a tall order on a single player setup.  I'd want the joysticks located to center the player with the screen, but would also want the trackball centered for bowling and golf games.  I guess if you weren't worried about bowling or golf games, the trackball could be placed to the side.

I always wanted to do a trackball panel that folded down into the front of the cab when not in use, but that won't work on a desktop.

There is the stickied thread of control panel pics:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,59359.0.html
Not sure there is anything in there that matches your criteria though.

I'd agree with this. I stared at this in AutoCAD for days and couldn't make it work. The trackballs are simply too large to get into 24". If you put one out on the table and move your hand around on it you'll find that you don't want any kind of protruding object within a 5-7" circle (depending on how big your hand is). If you simply squeeze everything into 10" player sizes (which is really tight) you can tell right off that you're not getting that between two 24" walls.

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Thanks for the input so far.  The existing footprint is 18x8 but I could expand it lengthwise and vertically as needed to accommodate the new controls.  I don't however need the additional space for a second players joystick and buttons.  My original use-case was mainly robotron and fighters.

Here's my original green one and Northcoast's black update.  Since I play golf/bowling/centipede games now w/ a logitech marble trackball on my desk to the right of my keyboard I think I'd be ok with a sunk trackball to the right of the right stick so it doesn't need to be centered.  Then maybe the spinner at 11 o'clock to the right stick and the four way 1 o'clock to the left stick?

I remember 15+ years ago Ultimarc did those combo 4-way to 8-way 'in-CP' converting joysticks.  Did those take off or do folks do dedicated separate four ways.

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Well, cranked through the 'post a pic thread' and found a few that might qualify with some dimension shrinking. 

This one has the design layout I'd like in circled red, would just need to decrease the vertical space between the top four controls and the bottom row and allow for going ham on the trackball, laugh.  Any potential gotchas?

[PL1]

Any potential gotchas?

Horizontal position of the 4-way and spinner might be a bit tricky, depending on which hand you want to use for various games.

For example, you might want your right hand on the spinner for Arkanoid and your left hand on the spinner for Omega Race.
- Also, will there be enough room to rest your wrist on the panel during spinner games or will your wrist have to hover over the player buttons?

Make sure there's enough clearance between the 4-way and 8-way that your arm won't accidently hit the 8-way while you're playing OR there are enough inputs on an I-Pac2 that you could use different inputs and keystrokes for those two sticks so an accidental nudge won't mess with gameplay -- obviously, you'll need to remap stick inputs for 4-way games if you go this route.

A cardboard or 1/8" hardboard mockup with actual controls installed will let you know if you've got the positions right.

If you're going to use your keyboard for the admin buttons, you might as well ditch the orange buttons.
- If not, you might want to move the orange buttons to the upper right corner of the panel and use them as Coin and Start admin buttons.
- If you leave them directly above and move them closer to the trackball, you're more likely to hit them during a Golden Tee "Superman" drive.
- Put the Exit button where you won't accidently hit it.  i.e. Better to put it on the back or side wall of the controller than right next to Coin and Start.


Scott
EDIT:  Please consider dividing this into two controllers.  Yes, two controllers means more woodwork and more expense, but trying to keep it all on one controller  in the footprint you suggest will almost certainly result in bad ergonomics for the 4-way and spinner.  You'll get much better results if you put the 4-way and spinner on a separate controller with maybe 3 or 4 player buttons and mirror the buttons for ambidexterous play.  Check your gamelist to see how many buttons you need for 4-way and spinner games.

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Thanks for the well articulated notes Scott.

Good point on the confirming clearance for wrists, since this is a desktop setup the wrists would be resting on the slope while seated in a chair vs a stand-up cab.
My current CPs don't have control/admin buttons, I use joystick / main button combos to insert coins, start, and exit so I could gain some space for spinner/4way by ditching the orange buttons.

[PL1]

The big problem with arranging the controls like the example you posted is the triangle formed by the 4-way, spinner, and left 8-way.

What if you moved either the 4-way or the spinner to the other side so those two controls are above and outside the 8-way sticks?

  Spinner                                         4-way
       8-way  Buttons  Trackball     8-way

Pro: You've got room to rest your wrists.
Con: It almost forces you to use your left hand for the upper left control and your right hand for the upper right control.


Scott

[BadMouth]

If you're not hung up on the rubber grommet centering feel of robotron or pacman sticks, go with a joystick that can be switched.  That eliminates one issue.

Personally I would put the spinner to the left of the left joystick where PL has it, enough toward the front so your hand doesn't hit it while using the joystick.

Initially the layout you circled bothered me because it would put the player left of center of the screen.  Then I remembered that this is a desktop controller and you can just shift it wherever you want.

EDIT: Thinking about it some more, if you were ok with a fairly deep panel, the trackball could go out front where the spinner and extra buttons are in that pic.  There is a pretty wide berth between those joysticks and I don't think someone would hit the joysticks on the approach like they would on the follow through.

[John IV [MameUI64]]

What if you moved either the 4-way or the spinner to the other side so those two controls are above and outside the 8-way sticks?

  Spinner                                         4-way
       8-way  Buttons  Trackball     8-way

Pro: You've got room to rest your wrists.
Con: It almost forces you to use your left hand for the upper left control and your right hand for the upper right control.

Interesting, that's not bad... though I would swap the spinner and the four way as I've been playing Pacman/dkong etc. w/ my left hand for ages.  I think Tempest's dial was on the right. Thanks again guys -

[Xiaou2]

 You can almost stack two controllers vertically next to each other... if you use a small horizontal offset.
This allows them to be much closer to the player (less reaching / more comfort)

 Note the green circle, the represents a minimal amount of hand travel... and still does not get close to
the other stick.

 Note the wrist and arm positions, in that they do not interfere, nor do they rest on any other controls

 Trackball:

 - As for the Trackball... centered isnt always best.  You have to be careful of a player accidentally slamming
their fingers into a joystick (mainly, the right side stick.. because its too close)

 - By offsetting the ball more towards the left side of the CP..  you gain the minimal safe roll distances.
 - Nearby buttons are not much of an issue, because they are so low to the CP... that your hand arc tends
to swoop above them.
 - Spinners are low enough... that as long as they are just beyond a certain distance, your arm will also
arc way above them.   The main issue with collisions.. are the high joystick bats.

 Spinners:

 Ive inserted three spinners, as a choice of: comfort vs reach vs space

 - Extending the right side of the CP, allows for a spinner thats easiest to reach + use with the nearby stick
 - Middle spinner, is the 2nd best option... but your arms will be a little cramped if you need to use stick at
same time.
 - Left spinner isnt too bad... but your arm might end up resting on the trackball, depending on the angles.

 In order to play a game of Tron or Mad Planets.. one would need a Button topped Bat... or maybe a
foot-switch button.   The other option is a push-pull spinner... but you will lose some spinner control while
trying to constantly fire.  It would NOT work well for TRON, as you have to shoot the MCP at mega speeds.

(You could also use two or three spinners... to play Super Sprint.. and or some other 2p driving / racing games)

 EDIT:

 One more thing... Id swap out One Button in each players setup, with an Original Leaf-swtich.
Either the button nearest the bottom.. or one of the first buttons nearest the stick.

 A true leaf button will allow you to "Feather", and reach much higher rates of fire... without Fatigue.
Feathering = Lightly bounce the contacts.. so that they barely connect and disconnect.. with a very light "Vibration"
(instead of full pressing and fully releasing)

 A perfect game to try a real leaf vs standard microswtich on... is Halleys Comet.  This game is designed in such a
way that they Expect you to have to shoot at the maximum humanly possible fire rates... in order to be able to
get all of the powerups that are hidden in the rocks.

 A lesser example, is Galaga.  Galaga isnt nearly as demanding.. as its fire rate is far more limited.  BUT... because
you are constantly tapping the button... you will fatigue much quicker when using a microswitch.  With a leafswtich,
and feathering... you can play for hours without any fatigue at all.

 Though.. because Leafs are not always as accurate.. they are not so good for fighting games.  As such, the optimal
use is the bottom most button (your MK run buttons).  These are not used that often... and are not as Critical to
precise timing.

 Edit 2:

 There is one other possible way to Install spinners,  while using less space:

 - Mount them horizontally, to the Front face of the Base of your controller.

(like Stereo Volume knobs)

 Ive not tried this... but I see no reason why it would not work.

 Edit 3:  Final Notes

 As far as Robotron goes... Nothing comes close to real original NOS balltop leafswitch sticks.
Everything else is too slow, or too clunky.

 Such sticks are great for other Classic games as well.

 BUT... such sticks are not good for fighting games.. as they are not as "Precise".
You would accidentally hit diagonals.. or have trouble getting the diagonals... at the worst possible time.

 As such.. its a real problem if you are a purists, that needs the perfect response, to the games you love.


 Other than that... Add in

 - Analog Pinball Plunger?
 - Analog Pinball accelerometer
 - Two leaf pinball buttons per CP side (magna-saves + alternate flippers)

 - Internal Headphone splitter + dual headphone jacks in the front or sides.
 - Possible surround sound speakers, on each side of the base.

 - Bass Shakers into the bottom rear of the CP
 - Possible Shaker motors interface (from hacked gamepads), with upgraded stronger motors.

 - Coin Slot buttons on the front face? (press = insert virtual coin)

 - Hand Cooling vent holes, powered by internal fans / blowers
  (or air blowed from the rear of the CP, from the top.. using mini blower fans?)

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Thanks Xiaou2, I like your mockup.  I think I'd go w/ the middle spinner position rather than extending to the right.  Would need a few inches to the left of the four way too for wrist rest.

Yes, Tron and similar dial plus button-top joysticks would be tough w/ this set up but those aren't particular favorites of mine.  It'd be mainly for Tempest and Arkanoid style breakout games.

The feathered leafswitch on a single button is an interesting idea too, maybe on the main (left top ctrl) button.  Probably wouldn't notice it too badly on fighting games being the 'light' punch.

You make a good point about the bats vs Robotron balls for fighting games.  I've used Happ Supers on the old CPs for almost two decades, but I did like the feel of a ball Sanwa (TP-8YT) I recently tried on something called the MAYFLASH Arcade Stick F500 Elite from Amazon for a few days before sending it back, seemed like it would be nice for pacman and other classics.

I've gotten a lot more clarity in design from this thread.

[Xiaou2]

Hello John, glad to be of help.

 There are some bat and balltops that have small top mounted buttons on them.
I can tell you, that Mad Planets alone, is worth it.

 I do like tron too... but, my issue with tron is the unfairness of the lightcycle stage.

 There are a bunch more cool trigger games.. but my mind is fuzzy at the moment.


 As for Bats vs Balls... I just thought I would make sure to clarify some things...
 Its not the handle, that makes the difference.  Its the mechanism differences.

 Just as a Button mounted Microswitch takes about 3mm of travel before activation...
a Joystick with microswitches will thus take that, as well as some additional center dead-zone space...
which means that the total stick will have to move much further from  "full left"  to  "full right"
than a classic Leafswitch stick.

 This extra travel distance isnt bad on a fighting game,  as it helps prevent unwanted actions.
However... on classics that require high speed reaction times (barely dodging fast moving projectiles,
by a single pixel)   ..such as Robotron...  you want less overall stick travel.

 Furthermore... the other feature of a Leaf-stick... is that the centering system is a rubber grommet,
vs the typical springs on a modern stick.

 The center pivoting rubber grommet, has a very soft "squish" feel to it.  Even when you slam
your stick all the way to the edges... you dont feel a hard impact collision.. like with a standard
modern joystick.  The impact is more like a pool ball, that hits a rubber bumper on a pool tables
edges.   This might not seem like that big of a deal... but when you feel it in comparison.. it really
makes a huge difference in comfort, quiet, and reduced fatigue.

 In addition, and as mentioned... these are virtually Silent, in operation.  No more million clicks per
second.. from moving your stick around.   And if you are feathering your leaf buttons (instead of fully
mashing them to the end of travel)... then your play would be Ninja levels of Silent.


 As for Pacman... that needs a good dedicated 4way, with an actual diamond shaped restrictor.
Many of these 8 way sticks that have a 4 way toggle on them... do not feel nor play anywhere near as
good as a real diamond restricted device  (original Wico or Bally).   Its been a long time since Ive
looked into available hardware... so there might be some decent products available by now.

(getting a non-worn original, is nearly impossible these days.  4 ways dont last that long in an Arcade
environment)

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Got the old Northcoast CP Designer out and placed some stuff around.  There's only 2 or 4 player starting template so I had to move things over to the left.  See cropped pic for rough dimensions.
I liked the idea of keeping my existing robotron / fighter layout and then building the trackball out to the right and 4-way up to the left (that's the normal place for my marble trackman next to my keyboard).  I think I've got enough wrist clearance for the spinner between the trackball and right stick to rest my forearm while seated.  The trackball plate will be underneath with only the ball displaying so it should be smooth through there.

Trying to be reasonably compact.

[Xiaou2]

With a Trackball... when you roll it your hardest / fastest... your hand will likely move 6 to 8 inches.

 With your current layout.. your hand will smash into the joystick.

 You will want at least 6" Minimal... from the center of the ball.
7 to 8"  is safer.

 Heres the thing... if you have a High Resolution trackball... instead of a Standard arcade trackball...
it would take much less ball travel, to get the maximum level of power/speed.

 Another trick people sometimes use... is to Crank up the Analog settings, so that each Tick, values more.

 The problem with both of those things... is that it dramatically changes how the game is supposed to
feel and play.

 If you increase the stepping and or resolution... then you have effectively reduced the difficulty,
and the depth of trackball speed ranges.

 In a game like Atari XO football... its Designed with huge, heavy, 4" diameter balls (maybe larger).
Each roll of the trackball is designed to only move the characters a small amount... and so, to run a
very long distance in the field... you have to work REALLY HARD.  You will literally be Sweating, after
such a run... as rolling that hard, fast, and for such a sustained time... really gets the blood pumping.

 Its actually very similar in nature, to the needed endurance to physically "RUN"... and that makes it
quite unique... compared to games where all you have to do, is push a stick forwards... and there is
no feeling of urgency, fatigue, etc.


 In Gold games, it should NOT be "Easy" to hit the ball with the club, at maximum velocity.

 In games like Marble Madness...  its somewhat similar to the Football example.  The Levels are
pretty short.. and the marble is designed to only move at minimal speed.  And once the marble has
gained enough momentum... then you need equally opposite efforts to Stop / Reverse it.

 So... if you make the ball easier to Accelerate.. you make the game 1000x easier than was designed
for the Level: Escaping Enemies, and the Game Timer.


 Now... there is one other option, if you really want to save space:

 Make the Trackball side of the panel... be able to expand further away from the other side.

 Not full detachable... but on rails, that allow the CP side to expand.

[Xiaou2]

Space Saving Options, that I made Prototype solution sketches for

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Hah, that's pretty wild. I'm probably just going to shift the trackball right and up a bit. Thanks for your help and advice.