Need advice on Ultimarc A-PAC and installing 4 pots and buttons

[Moxxidude]

I've purchased an 80s Midway Hockey Tennis Soccer cocktail arcade cab that was unfortunately gutted but otherwise in excellent shape (seems to be a rarity as so far no one has even seen one like this). I'd like to keep it as retro as possible and play Pong, Warlords, Super Breakout etc on it. I know that Pong is hard to emulate due to it only being on a circuit board so I thought I'd try Atari Vault (Steam). I plugged in GRS Buttonhole Spinner to see if it would even work and it's pretty good on Super Breakout and games that require horizontal paddle movement - couldn't get it to work with Arcade Pong as that required horizontal movement (but it did work with Atari 2600 Pong which was strange). If that doesn't entirely work I'm open to MAME on a PC or RetroPie.

My question is in regards to using 4 Pots as this machine used originally. I see that the Ultimarc A-PAC board is what I would want, but to hook up 4 pots for 4 players (and one button for each player) would I require 2 A-PAC boards (2 players per board)?

I've used zero delay USB boards before but nothing like the A-PAC. I also have no clue about what wiring I need but I did see the image of 4 pots connected to an A-PAC during my searches. If anyone has any suggestions to this, or what pots would be best, I'm all ears. Or if anyone has any other advice as to what I could easily do with this machine that I haven't thought, again, I'd love to hear it.

[Moxxidude]

-Removed - as it was duplicated post and now fixed above.

[PL1]

Not sure why my text didn't get posted.

The forum software didn't display it because the text is inside the "IMG" (image) tags you probably inserted using the icon.
- Delete both sets of "IMG" and "/IMG" tags and the forum software will display the text.
- You may also want to delete the extra "http://".

Code: [Select]

[img]http://[img]I've purchased . . .
. . .  I'd love to hear it.[/img][/img]


I'd like to add 4 pots with buttons. I've researched it and it looks like the Ultimarc A-PAC board is what I require but since I want 4 players on this, would I require two A PAC boards (one board per 2 players)?

One A-Pac will handle four pots.
- P1 X-axis
- P1 Y-axis
- P2 X-axis
- P2 Y-axis

That should be OK for your application as long as the emulator/game program will allow you to map these four axes to the four players.

Also if anyone has any suggestions as to what pots I should use, I'm all ears.

The original Atari/Pong/Warlords pots had a slip-clutch so you didn't break the pot if you slammed into the end-stop.
- Most pots are like the one shown below -- they do not have a slip-clutch.  The flat part of the shaft fits into a slot on the plastic piece that holds the contact.




Scott

[Moxxidude]

Thank you PL1! I fixed the formatting of the post - I guess the forum had logged me out without me knowing after an hour and I couldn't find anyway to edit. All good now!

I appreciate the info. I'm googling 5K pots with slip clutches right now and seeing if that's something I can still purchase. So many potentiometer's out there!

I'm wondering if anyone that is familiar with Ultimarc A Pac's would know if they're compatible for 4 player pots on one board as I found this site on Ultimarc when I was looking.

Thanks again!

[PL1]

I'm wondering if anyone that is familiar with Ultimarc A Pac's would know if they're compatible for 4 player pots on one board

The A-Pac will show up as two gamepads.
- It will work with any version of MAME, no problem.   



To test whether it will work with other emulators/game programs:
- Plug in a USB gamepad with an analog thumbstick.
- Launch your emulator/game program.
- Map one player's paddle to the thumbstick X-axis.
- Map another player's paddle to the thumbstick Y-axis.

If the emulator/game program allows you to map more than one player's controls on one gamepad (like MAME does) you're good to go.   
- If it won't let you do that, you can still use that emulator/game program for 1 or 2 player games.

I'd organize the controls like this:
  Cab P1 paddle - A-Pac P1 X-axis
  Cab P2 paddle - A-Pac P2 X-axis
  Cab P3 paddle - A-Pac P1 Y-axis
  Cab P4 paddle - A-Pac P2 Y-axis


Scott

[Moxxidude]

Thanks for all of that detailed PL1! Very much appreciated! I'll definitely order one - hopefully they ship to Canada. I was looking at 5K Pots - does the one in the pic seem like what I'd need? It doesn't have a long cycle listing that I can see.

[baritonomarchetto]

Yes, that will work. The most important thing when selecting the potentiometer for most arcade projects is the linearity (logaritmic potentiometer are NOT the right choice) and value (which could range from 1K to 50K generally).

Have you considered using arduino leonardo instead? It's way cheaper than an A-Pac and you would have control over the firmware .

Are you going to use the original CRT monitor or a LCD?

[PL1]

I was looking at 5K Pots - does the one in the pic seem like what I'd need? It doesn't have a long cycle listing that I can see.

Impossible to tell for sure from a picture, but $6.00, wire-wound, and a mechanical end stop doesn't sound like it would be rugged enough or long enough life for your application.
- A link with info like manufacturer, P/N, datasheet, etc. would help us confirm or deny.

If you can still find Clarostat 53C3 or Honeywell RV4 series long-life pots, those might be a good option to consider -- they were discontinued several years ago IIRC.

Related thread with some options to consider: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,155058.0.html

The most important thing when selecting the potentiometer for most arcade projects is the linearity (logaritmic potentiometer are NOT the right choice) and value (which could range from 1K to 50K generally).

The good news is that it is a linear pot.

The not-so-good news is that it is a wire-wound pot.
- Very accurate, but it may not hold up well long term under game-play conditions.   

Have you considered using arduino leonardo instead? It's way cheaper than an A-Pac and you would have control over the firmware .

Very true.  If Moxxidude wants to try "rolling his own", he could use any one of a number of firmware sketches or the KADE miniArcade 2.0 firmware.


Scott

[Moxxidude]

Yes, that will work. The most important thing when selecting the potentiometer for most arcade projects is the linearity (logaritmic potentiometer are NOT the right choice) and value (which could range from 1K to 50K generally).

Have you considered using arduino leonardo instead? It's way cheaper than an A-Pac and you would have control over the firmware .

Are you going to use the original CRT monitor or a LCD?

I will admit I've never heard of the Arduino Leonardo before. I've looked into it now and it looks very interesting. That's not my wheelhouse but I'm definitely interested in learning and it is half price of the A-PAC. Is there an advantage of using the AL versus the APAC if I'm going to use it with a Pi or PC in regards to functionality (or just price) that would benefit someone with almost zero experience, as I doubt I'll be getting my fingers dirty coding anything. I don't even really know how to wire a pot at this point....I'm hoping for something as "plug and play" as possible.

Thank you so much for the info. Down the rabbit hole I go....

I am going to use an LCD monitor at this point although a CRT would be cool - but for ease of use I'll use an LCD.

[Moxxidude]

Thanks for all of the continued info on those pots PL1. I will attempt to find something that is better quality. That pot was available at P3 America: Precision Sensors and Joysticks, but again, if it's too cheap, I don't want to be replacing them in a few months or next year even. Something with more of a life cycle would be best.

It is humbling to think the pioneers of this hobby had the tech know how to build this stuff. The phrase "Tony Stark built this in a cave with a box of scraps!" comes to mind. I can't even wrap my head around it with schematics, Youtube videos and the assistance on here!

[PL1]

I will admit I've never heard of the Arduino Leonardo before. I've looked into it now and it looks very interesting. That's not my wheelhouse but I'm definitely interested in learning and it is half price of the A-PAC.

Check out the 5v/16MHz Arduino Pro Micro.
- Same family/generation Arduino with the same 32u4 processor, but far more plentiful and very inexpensive.
- It has VCC (5v), ground, and analog input pins (purple, right-center) for the four pots and lots of digital input ports for buttons.

Is there an advantage of using the AL versus the APAC

If you're a coder, the Arduino is far more flexible.

For non-coders, the A-Pac is closer to plug and play.

I doubt I'll be getting my fingers dirty coding anything.

The KADE miniArcade 2.0 option is a good middle-ground choice.
- Works on any 32u4 board like the Leonardo, Micro, Pro Micro, etc.
- The closest you get to programming is loading the firmware+EEPROM files on the board. (i.e. type a command on the command line, double-click the reset port to put the board in programming mode for 8 seconds, and press ENTER on the keyboard -- it's not rocket surgery   )

I don't even really know how to wire a pot at this point.

Wiki to the rescue!
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Analog_Encoders#How_a_potentiometer_provides_the_voltage_for_an_analog_encoder_to_measure

I'm hoping for something as "plug and play" as possible.

No analog encoder project is going to be fully plug-and-play, but we'll help you get everything working.   


Scott

[baritonomarchetto]

I am using a cheap 2 euros potentiometer in my racing cabinet, so in my personal experience there's no need to buy expensive potentiometers. If you will kill one by using it, then you will evaluate to buy a more expensive pot.

Arduino leonardo (or pro-micro, sure, or any atmega 32u4 board of the arduino family) is way cheaper than an A-PAC (half the price an original, 1/8 a cinese clone) and so damn easy to program I would suggest you to learn those two basic notions your project asks for and go for it. It will take you less time (and will be more rewarding) than learing those commercial "arcade" boards setup programs

There are both arduino forum and this forum to help you in this elementar task, don't worry

[Moxxidude]

I am using a cheap 2 euros potentiometer in my racing cabinet, so in my personal experience there's no need to buy expensive potentiometers. If you will kill one by using it, then you will evaluate to buy a more expensive pot.

Arduino leonardo (or pro-micro, sure, or any atmega 32u4 board of the arduino family) is way cheaper than an A-PAC (half the price an original, 1/8 a cinese clone) and so damn easy to program I would suggest you to learn those two basic notions your project asks for and go for it. It will take you less time (and will be more rewarding) than learing those commercial "arcade" boards setup programs

There are both arduino forum and this forum to help you in this elementar task, don't worry

Thank you! There sure is a lot to research and think about. I very much appreciate all of the advice from you and everyone on here. Now I'm going to go and do some research and homework!

[baritonomarchetto]

I will post an instructable in the next few days. Apart from a new board I will introduce (which is a veeery simple shield I had sponsored by a PCB manufacturer in Cina), I will also give some basic knowledge on using Arduino in our hobby and some code to start from. Something similar to what I already did in another forum in my mother language but in "engrish" this time
I will post a link if you are interested

[Moxxidude]

I will post an instructable in the next few days. Apart from a new board I will introduce (which is a veeery simple shield I had sponsored by a PCB manufacturer in Cina), I will also give some basic knowledge on using Arduino in our hobby and some code to start from. Something similar to what I already did in another forum in my mother language but in "engrish" this time
I will post a link if you are interested

Very interested in this when you get a chance to put it together! Very much appreciated! Thank you!

[baritonomarchetto]

I have published it yesterday. Here is the link:

https://www.instructables.com/ArcadeHID-Multi-HID-Arcade-Interface/

Notice that the PCB is not necessary: it only adds screw terminals to the arduino promicro and all sketches can be uploaded to any 32u4 based arduinos

[Moxxidude]

I have published it yesterday. Here is the link:

https://www.instructables.com/ArcadeHID-Multi-HID-Arcade-Interface/

Notice that the PCB is not necessary: it only adds screw terminals to the arduino promicro and all sketches can be uploaded to any 32u4 based arduinos

That was awesome, thank you so much for taking the time to create this! I am definitely leaning toward this build except, and it's a HUGE except, that I cannot find the pots for this. I've reached out to arcade parts places online, local pot dealers (haha! - I mean, that's all I ever bumped into during my arcade days!) and everyone's telling me "Nope."

There are some NOS on eBay but here's a Q.

I believe I need this: 5K ohm potentiometer 270 degrees and with long life cycle (and it needs to fit through 1/4 wood). I've seen pots for arcade games from Namco, Sega etc. If they were the correct parameters above, would they work? They never put ALL the info on the listings and so I'm not sure if they're 360 or 270 degrees. I've reached out and asked Qs, but no one on eBay has responded as maybe they don't know....

Thanks again so much guys. If I can't find them, I'll buy 4 GRS USB Button Hole spinners which I know works, as I've got one working in MAME currently. But man, $340 for 4 of the ---daisies---... ouch!

EDIT: Spelling

[PL1]

I believe I need this: 5K ohm potentiometer 270 degrees and with long life cycle (and it needs to fit through 1/4 wood). I've seen pots for arcade games from Namco, Sega etc. If they were the correct parameters above, would they work?

Yes they will work and you have some additional wiggle room.

If the pot is in a 3-wire (potentiometer) configuration, it acts as a voltage divider and the encoder is measuring the voltage on the center tab. (wiper)
- The pot resistance does not have to match the original 5k as long as the resistance value keeps the current draw within an acceptable range for the encoder.  Arduino encoders are confirmed to work with anything from arcade pots to PC joystick pots.   Ohm's law ==>  Voltage (Volts) = Current (Amps) * Resistance (Ohms)
-- Arcade pots are usually 5k.  5v = 1mA * 5k Ohms
-- PC joystick pots are usually 100k.  5v = 0.05mA * 100k Ohms

Pretty sure one of these from Jameco will work in your 1/4" panel.
https://www.jameco.com/z/RV4NAYSD502A-Clarostat-Honeywell-22mm-Linear-Taper-Potentiometer-5K-Ohm-2-Watt-10-_13995.html

https://www.jameco.com/z/RV4NAYSD103A-Clarostat-Honeywell-22mm-Linear-Taper-Potentiometer-10k-Ohm-2-Watt-10-_13952.html

If the vendor doesn't provide a link to the datasheet(s) like Jameco does, you can usually find them using search keywords "datasheet", manufacturer's name, and part number. (or series)

If I can't find them, I'll buy 4 GRS USB Button Hole spinners which I know works, as I've got one working in MAME currently. But man, $340 for 4 of the ---daisies---... ouch!

If you want to go the four spinner route for considerably less cost, check out Marsupial's Build your own HID-mouse compatible spinner thread that discusses using this type of rotary encoder as a spinner.
- If Mars' Arduino code is a bit daunting, StefanBurger has an already compiled 2-axis Illuminated Spinner firmware that works great. (Firmware .hex file here on Thingiverse)
- Four rotary encoders on two Arduino Pro Micro boards, enable multi-mouse in MAME, and you're good-to-go.

Hardest part is mounting them . . . unless you have a 3d printer.   

   

If you don't want to use a 2"/50mm holesaw on your cab, I can make an under-panel rotary encoder mount that works with the existing hole and uses a shaft extender.


Scott

[baritonomarchetto]

I have one of these in my cab

https://www.ebay.com/itm/372164882679

[Moxxidude]

I believe I need this: 5K ohm potentiometer 270 degrees and with long life cycle (and it needs to fit through 1/4 wood). I've seen pots for arcade games from Namco, Sega etc. If they were the correct parameters above, would they work?

Yes they will work and you have some additional wiggle room.

If the pot is in a 3-wire (potentiometer) configuration, it acts as a voltage divider and the encoder is measuring the voltage on the center tab. (wiper)
- The pot resistance does not have to match the original 5k as long as the resistance value keeps the current draw within an acceptable range for the encoder.  Arduino encoders are confirmed to work with anything from arcade pots to PC joystick pots.   Ohm's law ==>  Voltage (Volts) = Current (Amps) * Resistance (Ohms)
-- Arcade pots are usually 5k.  5v = 1mA * 5k Ohms
-- PC joystick pots are usually 100k.  5v = 0.05mA * 100k Ohms

Pretty sure one of these from Jameco will work in your 1/4" panel.
https://www.jameco.com/z/RV4NAYSD502A-Clarostat-Honeywell-22mm-Linear-Taper-Potentiometer-5K-Ohm-2-Watt-10-_13995.html

https://www.jameco.com/z/RV4NAYSD103A-Clarostat-Honeywell-22mm-Linear-Taper-Potentiometer-10k-Ohm-2-Watt-10-_13952.html

If the vendor doesn't provide a link to the datasheet(s) like Jameco does, you can usually find them using search keywords "datasheet", manufacturer's name, and part number. (or series)

If I can't find them, I'll buy 4 GRS USB Button Hole spinners which I know works, as I've got one working in MAME currently. But man, $340 for 4 of the ---daisies---... ouch!

If you want to go the four spinner route for considerably less cost, check out Marsupial's Build your own HID-mouse compatible spinner thread that discusses using this type of rotary encoder as a spinner.
- If Mars' Arduino code is a bit daunting, StefanBurger has an already compiled 2-axis Illuminated Spinner firmware that works great. (Firmware .hex file here on Thingiverse)
- Four rotary encoders on two Arduino Pro Micro boards, enable multi-mouse in MAME, and you're good-to-go.

Hardest part is mounting them . . . unless you have a 3d printer.   

   

If you don't want to use a 2"/50mm holesaw on your cab, I can make an under-panel rotary encoder mount that works with the existing hole and uses a shaft extender.


Scott

Once again, a million humble thanks! After reading what you posted, I realized I'm chasing down the pots that would work on an arcade cab, but I'll most likely be running this off a Rasberry Pi or possibly PC. I loved reading about your pot creation, and I'm not going to lie, it was above my cerebral pay grade. So I'm going to spend some time going through it and try and wrap my brain around it. I see that baritonomarchetto posted a link to eBay with pots he uses so I'm also going to look at those. Ultimately I'm not opening an arcade and this thing will be used very sparingly (if pre-Covid numbers in my ManCave are any indication - my friends are not into the arcade games unfortunately).

I'm definitely leaning toward the Arduino Leonardo! Going to look at the pots below and the boards! Thanks again!

[Moxxidude]

I have one of these in my cab

https://www.ebay.com/itm/372164882679

Thanks! That's a great link! Is it an actual arcade cab or a modded one using MAME on a Pi or PC that you have?

[baritonomarchetto]

It's an actual arcade cabinet with factory wheel and pedals (not Logitec plastics) interfaced to a PC with a custom made arduino jamma interface board

[Marsupial]

I second PL1's idea of installing Spinners.


4 Spinners would cost less than 80$ and it isn't too complex to achieve.

You even have room on the arduino to put buttons.

There aren't much games requiring a limited rotation (potentiometer) that can't be emulated by a spinner.

But most spinner games can't be emulated by a potentiometer.

What drew me away in the past is the cost of Spinners. DIY Spinners are much cheaper and as reliable. And with PL1's efforts in 3D models, mounting is much easier.

The same board (arduino) can also be used for potentiometer (outputting as a joystick) and buttons (keyboard output) all at the same time.

Opens more and more possibilities.

[Moxxidude]

I second PL1's idea of installing Spinners.


4 Spinners would cost less than 80$ and it isn't too complex to achieve.

You even have room on the arduino to put buttons.

There aren't much games requiring a limited rotation (potentiometer) that can't be emulated by a spinner.

But most spinner games can't be emulated by a potentiometer.

What drew me away in the past is the cost of Spinners. DIY Spinners are much cheaper and as reliable. And with PL1's efforts in 3D models, mounting is much easier.

The same board (arduino) can also be used for potentiometer (outputting as a joystick) and buttons (keyboard output) all at the same time.

Opens more and more possibilities.

You all have given me so much to think about. I didn't realize that most spinner games wouldn't work with a pot, but that makes sense. I love the fact that when I read that you guys are going to make a spinner out of a mouse ball - I have NO idea how that would even be done. I did have access to a 3D printer at the school I work at, but we're all online now and not allowed back in. I could probably get them printed locally if I had the files. I am going to investigate Marsupials spinners.

I don't have an issue drilling the holes to 2" in the cab if that makes everything easier.

So now I'm going to look at this stuff and order it. It'll probably take me some time. I researched Virtual Pinball for a year and a half before I felt confident enough to start putting a 3 screen all together - most of the hesitancy was moving from Mac back to Windows which I had been away for a decade. But it all came together....just have to build the actual cabinet this summer.

Thank you all so much again for ALL of your assistance. I'm certain this project will come together and I feel very confidence and welcomed to ask for assistance. You guys have been awesome!

[PL1]

I could probably get them printed locally if I had the files. I am going to investigate Marsupials spinners.

There are links to the .STL files in Marsupial's thread here, replies 5 and 7 or here on Thingiverse.
- Be sure to get the mount you want (chamfer or roundover) and the nut.
- For some reason, a minimum of between 23 and 41 people here on BYOAC downloaded mounts, but didn't download the nut.   
  Chamfer = 122 downloads
  Roundover = 117 downloads
  Nut = 99 downloads

Another thing to consider is which firmware to use.

- If Mars' Arduino code is a bit daunting, StefanBurger has an already compiled 2-axis Illuminated Spinner firmware that works great. (Firmware .hex file here on Thingiverse)

Scott

[PL1]

I read that you guys are going to make a spinner out of a mouse ball - I have NO idea how that would even be done.

An old mechanical ball mouse is basicly the same as an arcade trackball turned upside-down and a trackball is basicly the same as two spinners.

There are two optical encoder wheels, one for X-axis (#3) and one for Y-axis (#4) that either block or don't block the two beams of the optical circuit of that axis.  (#5)



When the encoder wheel for one axis turns, the two LEDs and two photodiodes (one pair per data line) for that axis produce a quadrature waveform that the mouse encoder translates into phase steps in a direction.
- Phase 2 to Phase 3 = 1 step right.
- Phase 2 to Phase 1 = 1 step left.






Scott