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Author Topic: CRT via S-Video Question  (Read 3174 times)

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zauxier

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CRT via S-Video Question
« on: October 23, 2019, 10:18:07 pm »
Hello,

I am using a CRT TV hooked up to my PC via S-video as my Mame monitor.  It's running in 800x600 and is working out great for what I need except that it seems like the image is squished horizontally.  it's almost as if the image is being pushed in about 3/4 inch on each side.  Thus making what should look like a square, look like a bit of a rectangle with longer sides and a shorter top and bottom.

Attached is an image which shows the area I'm talking about on the screen.  The yellow area is what I'm referring to that I'm trying to remedy.  I think the fix would be just to "stretch" the image back to it's full size, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to do that?  I'm running Windows XP, if that helps.  Thank you!!!

lilshawn

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 12:00:28 am »
you know a TV SD signal is like 480 lines right? you are trying to jam 800 lines into it.

you need to lower your resolution. like a lot.

Zebra

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2019, 02:29:43 pm »
Are you using the svideo out directly from a GPU or the svideo out port on an old laptop, or are you using an RGB to svideo transcoder like a Jrok?

If it's the former, they usually limit you to 480i for svideo out and changing the res in windows usually has no effect on the svideo out res. Are you certain you are outputting 600x800 to your tv?

Imo, you are better off downloading the free CRT EMU drivers with groovy mame and then investing a transcoder like a Jrok. Outputting games in their native res and refresh rates solves all kinds of display issues on SD CRT tv's, especially as they usually lack convenient image size and position adjustments like you have on monitors. I used to use a Jrok to get my mame PC on a CRT which only had Svideo (before I got my arcade monitors). They did a nice job:



The main reason to still be using a CRT is to get an authentic arcade-like image. Playing 240p games in 800x600 doesn't get you that.

BTW, if you are playing vertical games on a horizontal monitor, it's normal to have borders at the side of the screen.

Mr. Peabody

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2019, 03:22:20 pm »
Playing 240p games in 800x600 doesn't get you that.


It does for vertical games with scanlines.png , and 640x480 for horizontal games. Recent MAME looks great if set at D3D without bi-linear filtering (this outputs like DirectDraw). The rest I will not discourage, though it would be nice to know the model and specs of the TV....

zauxier

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2019, 05:01:05 pm »
 I am using s-video out from the gpu directly to the CRT. The ONLY option I'm able to select for the display in Windows is the 800x600 resolution, but beyond that I'm not sure how I can confirm this is the actual resolution that's being exported?

I'm open to all options as long ass this veteran pc can run it, and it doesn't permanently mess up the crt.

zauxier

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2019, 09:23:01 pm »
Phew, so I was able to change the resolution to 640x480 by going to the "list all modes" screen. It definitely looks better now, seems to fill out the entire screen like normal.  Thanks for the heads up!

I still think it can be updated to look a little better, any suggestions with my current setup?

Arroyo

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2019, 07:51:32 am »
I still think it can be updated to look a little better, any suggestions with my current setup?

Yeah install an AMD/ATI graphics card (HD 5000 or newer, they are all pretty cheap) and get to know CRT Emulation driver and GroovyMame.

With your current setup you won’t get the resolution switching per game nor will you get the proper refresh rates which might be even more import and so that the game play runs 100% at its original speed.

As mentioned the output of your S-Video will take what ever setting you choose on your graphics card and force 480i.  Most games were designed for 240p so none of the games will look as good as they originally did (you’ll be running interlaced instead of progressive).

What kind of CRT do you have (make and model)?

zauxier

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2019, 09:04:38 am »
I'm a little hesitant to put a new graphics card in the pc because it's an old Windows XP machine and is all setup right now for MAME.  But if this is what it's going to take to make a big difference then I might be interested.

The crt that I have is kind of a POS. Its a polaroid TV that's 19inches. No component, just s-video and composite. Looks like this.

Arroyo

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2019, 10:42:15 am »
Without knowing the model it's hard to say for sure, but I'm going to assume you live in the U.S.

The bad news:  consumer CRT's (TV's) in the U.S. are doable but challenging if you want to get a good picture.  As you noted without component the only way to get a really great picture is to hack the TV.  You can use the S-Video to some success, although I would have to lean on someone else's experience converting an RGB signal with minimal loss to an S-Video. 

The good news:  You can hack the TV's OSD (on screen display chip) to inject an RGB signal.  It requires getting comfortable with knowing the components of a CRT (especially the dangerous ones), and requires comfort in looking at schematics and soldering.  There is a dedicated subforum to the topic here:  https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155.  There are also numerous Youtube videos showing people doing it as well if you search for TV RGB mod.  I haven't performed one myself yet, but plan to do so in the future.  There are folks here that have done it as well.

Arcade monitors, Sony PVM's, and Consumer TV's with component make it easier (although with component you will have to buy a Transcoder). 

There is also the additional option of doing a tube swap (I haven't done this either yet).  Which means you buy an arcade chassis (Printed Circuit Board typically underneath the glass tube, which will also have a neckboard and other components), and take the tube from the consumer TV and fit it to the arcade chassis.  Again this involves a more firm understanding of CRT components and understanding taking the proper safety measures, and measurements on the tube to match it to a chassis.

This may all be a bit much if you are starting out.  It depends on how far you want to go to get an accurate Arcade picture/experience.

Zebra

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 09:38:07 pm »
There is no way you output 600 x 800 or 640 x 480p / 60hz to that TV via the svideo out on a gpu.


Old SD crt tv's only accept a 15khz signal so 480i / 60, 480p / 30hz or 240p. Most, if not all svideo out ports on gpu's ignore the res you set in windows or the Nvidia menu and output 480i only. You have no control over it.

The only way to play old arcade games in native 240p and native refresh rates is with groovy mame output via the vga or DVI - I port. The analog rgb 240p from groovymame can be converted to svideo but only with an external transcoder like a jrok. You can't use the gpu's svideo port.

When I used to use my jrok with groovymame on a Sony Trinitron via svideo, the pic was acceptable but not great. It was better than using an HD display though:





And way better than using blurry 480i.

zauxier

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2019, 08:48:45 am »
You guys/gals are the best. I'm going to keep playing around with it until I feel good about the picture.

Mr. Peabody

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2019, 12:37:38 pm »
Even Arroyo mentioned need for the model number. Did you lift it from somewhere?

zauxier

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2019, 10:38:09 am »
Sorry, the make and model is a Polaroid TTM-2401.

Arroyo

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2019, 10:44:23 am »
The manual for the TV would suggest that you DO have component:


zauxier

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2019, 11:22:16 am »
Welp, that means I didn't pull the right model then because it absolutely does not have component. Just composite and s-video.

lilshawn

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Re: CRT via S-Video Question
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2019, 04:20:51 pm »
i've seen instaces where later revision TV's have ports added to them. if you TV is missing those ports, it's possible it's an earlier revision.

I've also seen where some companies (like Costco in particular) will have the exact same model of appliance/tv/etc, but missing a few features or slightly slower...or have a particular attachment not included. i've seen a TV that has 3 HDMI been pared down to 1 at Costco but have the same model number or with an extra letter on the box. like (MG1234ABC vs DMG1234ABC)