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Author Topic: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?  (Read 3637 times)

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Mr. Peabody

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For example, what are the differences between Joust and its clones? MAME.info doesn't have this. Is there a place that has this information for all games?

PL1

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 06:43:26 pm »
For example, what are the differences between Joust and its clones? MAME.info doesn't have this. Is there a place that has this information for all games?
Here are several places where you can find info like that.

https://www.arcade-history.com/ is the site that generates history.dat files.
- It has a searchable database and accepts user submissions.

http://www.progettoemma.net/?&lang=en


Scott

Mr. Peabody

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2019, 05:26:29 pm »
You mean a couple (two). One is the source of the MAME.info . Progetto has the same information, with the addition of the development history of the driver. Neither have information on difference between rom versions.

Jimbo

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2019, 04:57:34 am »
I'd be interested in this also...

For example... Raiden..... the US version, when you lose a life, it puts you right back in...  in the other versions, it stops the game and takes you back to a checkpoint.

This makes a massive difference in the game, but I can't find anywhere online that catalogs these differences.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 04:59:19 am by Jimbo »

KenToad

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2019, 01:28:21 am »
That's really interesting. I had no idea that Raiden played that differently across regions. I wonder if it's in the history.dat file?

PL1

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 04:06:24 am »
Raiden..... the US version, when you lose a life, it puts you right back in...  in the other versions, it stops the game and takes you back to a checkpoint.
That's really interesting. I had no idea that Raiden played that differently across regions. I wonder if it's in the history.dat file?
Just checked the North American (raidenu and raidenua), Taiwan (raident), Korean (raidenk), and World (raiden, raidena, raidenb, raidenkb, and raidenub) Raiden entries and it's not in any of them.

If someone wants to verify and contribute this info for history.dat:

1. Confirm this difference by play-testing every currently-available version of the arcade Raiden ROMs -- there are at least nine of them.
- Do all of the World, Taiwan, and Korean versions take you back to a checkpoint when you lose a life?
- Do all of the U.S. versions not take you back to a checkpoint when you lose a life?
- If the answer to both of these questions is yes, the info should probably go in the North American entry.  If not, the info should probably go in the World entry.

2. This info looks like it would probably belong under the "TIPS AND TRICKS" heading according to the Contribution Rules here.
- When editing the entry, be sure to mention in the "Contribution Notes" field that you've confirmed it by play-testing all currently-available arcade ROM versions.


Scott

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 08:47:44 am »
A long, long time ago (probably only in the first few years of the project) there was a text file with MAME where some of these differences were noted, but as a whole it can be very difficult to see / notice revision differences without pulling apart the game code and finding exactly what was changed (which is very time consuming)  Some MAME source files still document this a little, but it's not something we ever need to know as part of reverse engineering the hardware, so it's more fitting for a community project to document what is changed.

A lot of the time differences are simple bugfixes for cases you might never encounter, but players encountered enough during real use that it was felt necessary for a fix to be issued.  For example, with Joe and Mac Returns the difference between the revisions is just a bit of code that checks when you're entering a bonus stage as in the earlier revision it's possible to softlock the game by entering a bonus stage at the same time as other things occur.

With things like fighting games you often saw things being rebalanced over time if one character was found to be overpowered, or you could win without the other player having a chance, regardless of skill (infinite combos and the like)

Other differences are less interesting, maybe a game was rebuilt just to add an extra copyright string, thus shifting a large amount of code and data for no significant change at all.

US revisions are actually usually much less fair, and designed to eat your money with nasty difficulty spikes, poor game balance etc.  Raiden is a bit of an exception there in that the US version becomes easier with the ditching of checkpoints (although there is logic behind it, American operators wanted people to coinfeed through games as finishing them gives people a false sense that they're good at them and more likely to want to show off, whereas sending you back to a checkpoint requires a player to have skill and means they're less likely to coinfeed and more likely to ragequit)

On the subject of Seibu / Raiden, there are actually many code revisions for things like Raiden Fighters (beyond the sets that differ only in region byte) and likewise plenty of actual code revisions on Raiden 2 (even if the vast majority of sets are based on the same code revision)  The MAME source actually groups the Raiden 2 sets based on code revision, even if gameplay differences aren't obvious beyond between the 'easy' 'normal' and 'harder' designations..

With Raiden DX the Japan version lacks autofire on button C, the theory there is that while in Japan you could easily get cabs with autofire hacked onto the control panel as a mechanical function, outside of Japan that never happened so it was mapped to a game function instead.

But yes, MAME supports many thousands of clones, some more interesting than others, don't let anybody ever tell you that only the parent sets are interesting, or that clones are a was of time / space / effort dumping because in many cases it's simply not true.

Documenting the exact differences is a project in it's own right tho.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 08:55:02 am by Haze »

KenToad

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 01:06:36 pm »
Really interesting information, Haze. Thanks! Also, I wonder why the parent games are often the Euro versions? Does it have something to do with the quarter-munching tendency of US versions?

The hyperspin forums have a pinned thread listing MAME clones worth playing, along with relevant differences.

https://hyperspin-fe.com/forums/topic/26943-list-of-mame-clones-worth-playing-redux/

Haze

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 04:25:28 pm »
The MAME parenting thing is kinda dumb.

Euro/World was picked as the first choice because it usually has the most languages available, and is less likely to have Winners Don't Use Drugs screens or other region warnings.

This doesn't hold up as well when it comes to the non-arcade stuff as Euro often implies PAL, and PAL is considered a dirty word these days.

Really it would make sense if it was 'country of origin' but people moan enough about MAME changing things, so if 90% of the library changed to Japan parents I hate to think how much complaining there would be.

Howard_Casto

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 07:05:11 pm »
I wouldn't be one of those people.  It would be so nice to just filter by region and/or language instead of hoping and praying the parent rom is the US one.  If it's done that way due to shared rom resources then the "parent" rom should really be all the common files sans the regions specific roms similar to how bios works.

Haze

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2019, 10:31:47 am »
clone / parent isn't done due to shared files, it's just a benefit you get.  there are parents/clones right now that share no files at all.

there are many possible ways to reorganize things, my personal vote would go to a 'family' system whereby the family name doesn't even imply a set at all.

We'd still have to decide which shortname we wanted to use for the family name (some games have entirely different names for each region) but it would rid us of the misconception that there is one true "best" version (and we could have a metadata based feature whereby only selecting the family name would prompt you with the sets in that family, in an order sorted by preferences)

However, the path of least resistance is to not really change anything at all.

There are many other ways in which I'd personally like MAME to change, I'd like the base machinelist to be more like a list of templates, where you create your own named machine from that list are promoted for how you want to configure that machine, and the configuration for your named machine is always retained under the assigned name in a database of 'your machines' (and therefore you could have multiple machines of the same game using the same base template with different configurations under your own assigned names - this type of thing would make linking multiple machines easier) however those all add additional steps to getting something up and running..

Again tho, a lot of work, and the primary interest of those working on MAME is just figuring out how things work, not the things I've described above, so if they happen it will be because it becomes necessary to move forward (or if it's deemed many things would become easier to work with and develop the emulation of under such a model)

One downside to both of those changes, from a user perspective, is they'd almost certainly kill off things like MAMEUI as it would require major changes, and it would also require frontends to have a rethink about how they interact with MAME too as it's changing fundamentals of operation.

Further changes might involve MAME simply starting up as virtual environment with nothing running in which machines can be added / removed on the fly (so you could run any selection of multiple machines, or no machine at all) but again, significant change of approach.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 10:37:44 am by Haze »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2019, 12:53:11 am »
What would be nice, now that we don't have to adhere to the 8.3 filename format, is if there were some mandatory flags in file names just to make things easier to search for, even if there aren't any clones. 

The last letters of the filename should help with region/language identification....  like:

gorfu
gorfe
gorfj

...ect

Notice there is no plain old gorf…. that's intentional because the file name doesn't tell you what region the rom is from.  Then anyone making a front-end or filtering program can easily compile a list of, let's say, all the US games, ect.  Except for us old timers the rom names don't really tell you what the games are anyway... they are often too abbreviated.   Also mame could optionally print a list of all unique games.... that'd give you the "gorf" without the region letter and the program could use the list brothers command to get all the different revisions, or just search for each region in a specified order until it gets a hit.  Since only the filename changes, and these names would hopefully be permanent, it wouldn't effect existing programs that much.   

Regions could be general (Europe, North America, ect.) or specific (USA, Japan, ect.) and it'd still work ok.... any program taking advantage of the new changes could just search specific and then search general if nothing is found. 

Mr. Peabody

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Re: Where do we find differences listed about game/rom versions?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2019, 07:42:30 pm »
This topic came to mind through viewing a site on game play and the differences in roms of the game, which I did not find in the .info . I think the fans could have this done in short time, as they know the differences.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 07:44:29 pm by Mr. Peabody »