CRTEmudriver 2.0 (15.8) on AMD HD 8470D to PVMs - no sync, please help

[HDgaming42]

Running Win 7 Ultimate on an AMD motherboard with an HD 8470D baked in.  Using CRTEmudriver 2.0 (15.8) I've tried both generic_15 and arcade_15 and both result in my monitors complaining of no sync.  Tried toggling composite sync on and off as well.  I run HDMI out to a Dell LCD and the VGA out to the PVMs.  The DVI port is strictly digital.

Trying to output to either a Sony PVM-14L2 or Sony PVM-14L5.  The L2 will show a screen but scrolls vertically, while the L5 is scrambled, green and complains of "no sync".

These monitors have no problem displaying 15kHz out of any of my consoles...

I'd be embarrassed to admit how many times I've taken a stab at getting this to work.  I've gone through two PCIe cards (gave up) and now the integrated solution that is newer, and I had high hopes for.  The free time I can commit to setup comes around every couple of months.

I did a forum search for "rolling", but there weren't pertinent hits.  A few detailing out of spec arcade games, but I'd be happy with bog-standard!

Please tell me there is something stupidly simple I'm overlooking.  I've followed the guides on eiusdemmodi line by line.  I have a decent grasp of sync and cabling and software installations.  So frustrating...and deflating.  I just want to get to the playing part...

EDIT:  while waiting for a response I'm double-checking all my steps.  I suspect I installed the wrong driver.  I believe I mis-identified my card without checking it was in the "desktop" category, and the other driver is for APU.  Doing an un-reinstall...

[HDgaming42]

Now I'm super confused.  The compatibility is stated as:

- Download CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 15 (Crimson 16.2.1 non-GCN* cards) for Windows 7/8/10 64-bits

                Desktop: AMD Radeon™ HD 5000, HD 6000 Series, HD 7000-7600, HD 8000-8400 Series
                              AMD Radeon™ R5 235X, R5 235, R5 230, R5 220 Series
             All-in-One: AMD Radeon™ HD 6350A, HD 6600A, HD 7450A, HD 7600A Series
                      APU: AMD Radeon™ HD 6000D, HD 7000D, HD 8000D, HD 6000G, HD 7000G, HD 8000G Series
                Mobility: AMD Radeon™ HD 5000M, HD 6000M Series

- Download CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 15 (Crimson 16.2.1 for GCN* cards) for Windows 7/8/10 64-bits

               Desktop: AMD Radeon™ HD 7700-7900, HD 8500-8900 Series
                             AMD Radeon™ R7 200, R7 300, R9 200, R9 300, R9 Nano, R9 Fury Series
                     APU: AMD A-Series APUs with Radeon™ R4, R5, R6, or R7 Graphics   
                             AMD Pro A-Series APUs with Radeon™ R5 or R7 Graphics   
                             AMD Athlon™ Series APUs with Radeon™ R3 Graphics   
                             AMD Sempron™ Series APUs with Radeon™ R3 Graphics   
                             AMD A-Series APUs with Radeon™ R3, R4, R5, R6, R7, or R8 Graphics
                             AMD Pro A-Series APUs with Radeon™ R5, R6, or R7 Graphics
                             AMD FX-Series APUs with Radeon™ R7 Graphics
                             AMD E-Series APUs with Radeon™ R2 Graphics
                             AMD Radeon™ HD 8180 - HD 8400 Series Graphics
               Mobility: AMD Radeon™ R9 M300, R7 M300, R9 M200, R7 M200, R5 M200 Series           
                             AMD Radeon™ HD 7700M-7900M, HD 8500M-8900M Series

Clicking what seems to be the appropriate link downloads this file:
crt_emudriver_&_tools_2.0_beta_15_16.2.1_W.7.8.10-64.exe (121M)
SHA-1: 8c21a513865b50a81fb1fd9d76216491217f4b55

This driver doesn't find any compatible adapters.

Clicking what seems to be the inappropriate link downloads this file:

crt_emudriver_&_tools_2.0_beta_15_16.2.1_W.7.8.10-64_nieg.exe (121M)
SHA-1: 450081a8527b8b60ee1cb09ac98d6fac9e392332

This driver finds a compatible adapter and will continue installation, but results in sync issues and my CRTs rolling.

I'm throwing in the towel for now.  Too confused and need some guidance if someone has the time.  Thanks...   

[Calamity]

How are you connecting this?

[HDgaming42]

How are you connecting this?

HDMI to a Dell 2405FPW via HDMI to DVI adapter. 
VGA out to a monoprice VGA to BNC adapter, to a Sony PVM-14L2.
The only other port is DVI-D.

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XM-D3H
Processor: A4-7300 with HD Graphics

I'll chronicle the process below.  First I used the CRTEmudriver uninstall function.  Then I rebooted to Safe Mode and ran DDU to mop up anything remaining from my prior attempts:



Upon reboot with just the windows provided driver these are my Hardware IDs:



crt_emudriver_&_tools_2.0_beta_15_16.2.1_W.7.8.10-64_nieg.exe is the only version of CRTEmudriver that recognizes a compatible card, but it reads:



Installation is successful:



I reboot.  My card is recognized by windows:



and my display is set to 1024x768, as expected.



I open VMMaker for the first time:



The tabs before I hit OK:






I enable EDID emulation for the analog out.




Windows now has switched to 640x480.



The picture on the PVM-14L2 rolls:



I enable csync for the VGA output:



The PVM-14L2 still rolls--no change whatsoever.

I take my VGA cable off the 14L2 and plug it into input 6 on my Extron Crosspoint (via another monoprice adapter to BNC).  I route it directly to output to my PVM-14L5.  It rolls and is...green?  (double checked I have that input as RGB and not component, and that external sync is enabled)



Then I clear all routes.  I route 6 into an extron 203 RXi.  It's what I would expect:



Routing the 203 out to the L5 results in a non-green rolling picture:



In an attempt to cling to sanity, I route the 203 into an emotia.  It does not detect any signal--no input formats match:



Just for the hell of it I then route the emotia into the L5 and the L5 shows giant white spikes that surge up and down the monitor.

I begin to doubt my wiring.  I then remove the VGA cable from input 6 and put it aside.  I connect the VGA output of my GSCART to input 6 (so the same connection) and route it directly to the L5.  It works immediately:



I route it into the 203--it reads exactly the same as what the AMD VGA out was reading.

I am beyond stumped.  Way beyond stumped.  Every guide claims you can connect your monitor the second after you enable EDID emulation.  I can't even get that far, let alone making it my primary monitor!

More than happy to provide any info you request.  I hope I've offered up something here that is useful.  I appreciate the help Calamity.   

[Calamity]

VGA out to a monoprice VGA to BNC adapter, to a Sony PVM-14L2.

I assume you're mixing h-sync and v-sync cables by means of a T connector, aren't you?

[HDgaming42]

VGA out to a monoprice VGA to BNC adapter, to a Sony PVM-14L2.

I assume you're mixing h-sync and v-sync cables by means of a T connector, aren't you?

I'm not...I was under the impression:

a) that's not advisable from a voltage perspective
b) csync is delivered over one cable
c) that's exactly what the extron 203 accomplishes--combining H+V sync.  Yet it rolls even after processing in the 203...

Clearly I'm missing something.  Happy to be corrected on any/all of the above...

[Calamity]

Ok.

After enabling c-sync, you must generate and install the modes again. This will overwrite the desktop mode with the correct c-sync.

[HDgaming42]

Ok.

After enabling c-sync, you must generate and install the modes again. This will overwrite the desktop mode with the correct c-sync.

I performed this step many times yesterday (not that you have any way of knowing that) and I just re-did it now.  Unfortunately there is no change--the L2 still complains of no sync and the picture rolls.  I'll fish around for a T-connector...

[HDgaming42]

Found a T.  Enabled c-sync.  Generated new modes.  Applied new modes.

The picture no longer rolls, but says "no sync" and the image is doubled up--offset from itself by about 6 scanlines.

I disabled c-sync.  Generated new modes.  Applied new modes.

The picture is identical.  "No sync" and a doubled-up picture.

[Calamity]

Normal configuration (no csync) with a T-connector direct to the PVM should work right away. You're right this is far from optimal regarding voltages, but you can fix that later using resistors if you're worried.

If that doesn't work, then I'd try to find if there's a problem with the sync polarities. Your picture suggests that v-sync is either missing or has the wrong polarity. While the correct polarity (negative) should be in use by default, the only way to be certain is by measuring it with some external equipment.

What you can do easily is to launch some mode (all EXCEPT the current desktop mode) with Arcade OSD, enter Edit Modeline and try swapping the vertical sync polarity.

[Calamity]

Found a T.  Enabled c-sync.  Generated new modes.  Applied new modes.

The T is meant for separate sync.

[HDgaming42]

Found a T.  Enabled c-sync.  Generated new modes.  Applied new modes.

The T is meant for separate sync.

Sure.  I only did it both ways to eliminate the possibility of the disable and enable features being mistakenly swapped.  A long-shot to be sure.

Calamity--in an ideal world, using an APU such as the one I have (newer than the 5000 series) and performing the steps I've laid out--what is the expected result?

This guide seems to suggest I should just be able to hook up my PVM and go with what I've done:
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052#p1052

Or do BVMs have a VGA connector and take both H&V sync?  The guide doesn't show the connection to the BVM.

I discovered (and it makes sense) after running Arcade OSD that my VGA out only had 1 modeline.  Turns out you need to change the dropdown for videocard device to be your VGA out before you generate modes!  Nowhere is that called out in the guide(s), but I guess it makes sense.

I did that and generated modes and then they showed up in Arcade OSD.  The problem is that any interlaced resolutions have the screen vibrating up and down far worse than what a regular interlaced output should look like.  The few progressive modes that work are rock solid.

I'd be surprised if everyone using CRTEmudriver is running it through a T connector, or an external sync combiner...what am I doing wrong?

[HDgaming42]

If that doesn't work, then I'd try to find if there's a problem with the sync polarities. Your picture suggests that v-sync is either missing or has the wrong polarity

A correction--the T method *doesn't* say "no sync" but is duplicated as shown.  Reversing the polarity in Arcade OSD had no effect.  Same result.

[Calamity]

Calamity--in an ideal world, using an APU such as the one I have (newer than the 5000 series) and performing the steps I've laid out--what is the expected result?

Unfortunately I can't remember anyone using an APU yet. Which is sad since I had imagined APUs would be a popular choice for low cost emulation builds. So we don't have a reference to compare. Ideally, this APU should work just like the HD 6900 it's supposed to be based on.

The thing is you're following the guide in a "creative" way, I mean: you're not switching cables but instead using a supporting monitor (the Dell) that's always connected. That's perfect, it's the way I do things here too, but requires some extra steps as you have discovered, because you have to deal with two separate outputs which can be configured separately.

So most of the time you've been applying the different configurations to the wrong output, so your results may not be totally conclusive to some extent: at this point you know better than me which from your previous tests were valid and which weren't.

PVM/BVM users are a minority in this community. Most people here are using arcade monitors or TVs, which have their own connection issues. Everyone using PVM/BVM is either using a T-connector or a sync combiner. Just recently some of us are using c-sync through the H-sync cable so the V-sync cable is left unconnected (no T).

I'm still unclear about whether choosing the correct output in VMMaker has got you sync on the PVM or it still rolls. I gather you're getting correct progressive modes in Arcade OSD, but not all (probably a low dotclock issue? which are the ones that work?). Interlaced modes looking bad is a different story (it sounds like there could be a built-in digital to analogue converter but I'd be surprised).

[HDgaming42]

Unfortunately I can't remember anyone using an APU yet.

The story of my life when it comes to troubleshooting, LOL.

I'm still unclear about whether choosing the correct output in VMMaker has got you sync on the PVM or it still rolls. I gather you're getting correct progressive modes in Arcade OSD, but not all (probably a low dotclock issue? which are the ones that work?). Interlaced modes looking bad is a different story (it sounds like there could be a built-in digital to analogue converter but I'd be surprised).

Yes, I think I have a handle on it now, and I've given up on csync.  I just run the signal into the extron for processing--didn't realize PVM users were in the minority in GroovyMAME land.

Progressive modes work fine.  Here's what I saw with interlaced output:

512x242 60i - doubled up image, same 6 line split
512x478 60i - no picture
512x480 60i - doubled up image, same 6 line split
512x512 58i - damn close.  doubled up by only a few lines
640x480 30i - doubled up image, same 6 line split
640x480 60i - doubled up image, same 6 line split
664x496 60i - doubled up image, same 6 line split
768x512 58i - damn close.  doubled up by only a few lines

Tried a few games in groovymame and had weird tearing.  I'd like to *think* the sync and resolution issues have been put to bed, and now I just need to work on configuring groovymame correctly.  Probably save that for another day. 

I appreciate all the help.  Every other time I've tried CRTEmudriver (with older cards) I've done the swap monitor trick and found it less than ideal.  I'm also not super hot on viewing the windows desktop at such low resolutions.  I don't want to dedicate a whole PC to this undertaking--it has to pull double duty as a HTPC.

Thanks for continuing your work on this.  I know a ways back (way waaaay back?) you felt Win 10 might be the end of the road.  Nice to see it working there as well.  I'm going to roll a Win 10 version on a spare drive--would really like to use my Xbox One controller.

[buttersoft]

PVM/BVM users are a minority in this community.

Maybe, but there are still heaps of people doing this I've connected up to a a few different brands of pro monitor, at least six different models, without a hitch. On four different desktops and three different laptops. But never with an APU.

Setting up a laptop can be interesting, and i guess might be similar in some ways. Normally don't want to bother extending the desktop at first, until you have both screens detected by windows, and a picture on (at least) one of them. It's normally a matter of targeting the right output for 15kHz, and that screenshot of yours i copy in below listing the DVI-D port looks wrong given you can't be using a DVI_D port. What other displays are in the list? In the case of the laptops i've tried VMM lists between 2 and 4 VGA outputs, one of which is the built-in LCD, one of which is the actual VGA output, and the rest i haven't played with much. I have an extron 190F i use for troubleshooting, so i'd guess the problem is with your APU



MB you could try setting up the 15kHz screen only on this PC, first - just get it fully working as in - then add the LCD back into the mix once the PVM's are working.

Out of interest, do super resolutions show up ok? If they do, it might be a weird dot clock issue like Calamity mentioned.

[HDgaming42]

It's normally a matter of targeting the right output for 15kHz, and that screenshot of yours i copy in below listing the DVI-D port looks wrong given you can't be using a DVI_D port. What other displays are in the list?

Thankfully I was always setting the EDID emulation to the correct port--in this case it shows up as Analog_0-VGA (not pictured).  My mistake was generating the modelines for the wrong ID (my LCD).  Once I straightened that out I was in business (with either the T or extron methods).  Interlaced modes display incorrectly, and I only tried super resolutions once.  The default had my PVMs howl, bend the screen diagonally and darken down to almost nothing.  I immediately aborted the super-resolutions route and went back to what was working.  Have an extron crosspoint is handy--being able to just route signals through converters, avoid them, send combined sync to multiple monitors simultaneously.  It's been a god-send--as long as you can trust your wiring, LOL.

Surprised at all the vertical and horizontal screen tearing I'm seeing in GroovyMAME.  I can only assume it has to do with the current settings in mame.ini, and that the resolutions the APU is outputting aren't to blame.

Oh man--stop me if you think the APU is to blame!  I don't want to move onward and tinker more if I haven't actually solved the resolution problem!

[buttersoft]

No no, if you can get up a stable 15kHz non-super image of any sort, that is nice and bright and clear with no ghosting like you had before where you were getting that vertical shadow, then the APU is fine, and it's probably a config issue to blame for the tearing.

[tisurame]

PVM/BVM users are a minority in this community. Most people here are using arcade monitors or TVs, which have their own connection issues. Everyone using PVM/BVM is either using a T-connector or a sync combiner. Just recently some of us are using c-sync through the H-sync cable so the V-sync cable is left unconnected (no T).

Is there any difference between using a T-connector to combine the sync or use c-sync directly through the H-sync cable?

I have a few Ikegami monitors that are more sensible to the sync and using a T-connector or c-sync through the h-sync cable produces the exactly same (bad) results. Using the h/v delay button I can compare the sync and both methods looks the same.




I even have a old PVM that have a small distortion with the c-sync through the h-sync cable, but not when using a T-connector. With my others PVMs both methods looks identical.

[buttersoft]

Is there any difference between using a T-connector to combine the sync or use c-sync directly through the H-sync cable?

I would guess yes. If you're seeing different results anywhere, then definitely yes. I'm not sure how an AMD GPU will output c-sync.

[Calamity]

Surprised at all the vertical and horizontal screen tearing I'm seeing in GroovyMAME.  I can only assume it has to do with the current settings in mame.ini, and that the resolutions the APU is outputting aren't to blame.

This is probably because, again, you're not pointing to the right output in your configuration (now it's mame.ini) so Switchres turns itself off (no autosync). Please attach a log when reporting GM related issues.

[HDgaming42]

Nearly a month has passed and what do you know--I've finally found the time to re-engage with my hobbies!

OK, so for whatever reason my setup just doesn't like any progressive resolutions--they look split up / pulled apart.  I don't really care to fix this as I'm only interested in 15kHz games.

I got smart (I thought) and created a "limited" version of the "user_modes.ini" file and knocked out all progressive resolutions that don't agree with my setup.  It ended up looking like this:

## Family Computer - Nintendo Entertainment System ##

 256 x 240 @ 60.098000 famicom

## Mark III - Master System ##

 248 x 192 @ 60.000000 mastersys
 256 x 192 @ 60.000000 mastersys

## PC Engine - Turbo Grafx ##

 336 x 224 @ 60.000000 pcengine
 544 x 242 @ 59.922743 pcengine

## Mega Drive - Genesis ##

 256 x 224 @ 60.000000 megadrive
 320 x 224 @ 60.000000 megadrive

## Super Famicom - SNES ##

 256 x 224 @ 60.098475 superfam

## Aux. ##

 240 x 200 @ 59.730000 aux
 256 x 244 @ 60.000000 aux
 256 x 240 @ 60.098475 aux
 320 x 240 @ 54.140000 aux
 320 x 244 @ 59.410646 aux
 384 x 240 @ 59.629403 aux

544 x 242 @ 59.922743 is the "best" desktop resolution for my PVM, so I set it to that.  To my horror, certain games with oddball resolutions still launch and look pulled apart.  I ran a log and discovered switchres was choosing 640x480-60i. 

I didn't include this resolution in the user modes, nor did I see it listed when I actually generated the modes.  Where is this coming from and how can I purge this resolution? 

Or is there a way to strike that resolution from the ones available to GroovyMAME?

I'm confused...I just want to be left with progressive 15kHz options...

[Calamity]

640x480 comes from the emulated EDID, you can't remove that one. But you can disable interlaced modes easily by turning off the -interlace option in mame.ini, if that is what you wish.

1942 will look terrible anyway, you don't have a 256p mode in there. Well, actually you won't have good results with that limited list of resolutions. You'd better use super resolutions.

[HDgaming42]

640x480 comes from the emulated EDID, you can't remove that one. But you can disable interlaced modes easily by turning off the -interlace option in mame.ini, if that is what you wish.

1942 will look terrible anyway, you don't have a 256p mode in there. Well, actually you won't have good results with that limited list of resolutions. You'd better use super resolutions.

Thanks Calamity!  I initially shied away from super resolutions as I thought if I couldn't get the "easy" part correct, how could I tackle the next step.

Gave it a go, and wow!  Now so many more games work!  And yes, disallowing interlace worked wonders too.

The only potential sticking point was immediately after adding super resolutions.  It kicked the output into 31kHz progressive, and if I didn't have an extron sync converter and emotiva I wouldn't have been able to see anything in order to choose a new desktop resolution for the PVM.

Amazing stuff.  Thanks so much for your continued work on this!   

[Zebra]

I run CRT EMU to both arcade monitors and my Ikegami broadcast monitor through an Extron RGB interface. The interface converts any type of sync to any type of sync you need. Did you have sync related issues even when using the rgb interface? That would be odd.

As a side point, there is no visible difference on-screen between RGBS and RGBHV. All my monitors can accept both so I experimented with this to see if C-sync created a more authentic image. It did not. I compared it to my SF2 HF PCB on the same monitors using my Supergun. The only differences were in color and brightness (not related to sync).