Feedback, opinions, and advice on control panel

[Willard_Bones]

  Hi!

  I have built a RetroPie, slimline arcade cabinet, with a dedicated Defender CP.  Now I'm going to build a second CP, to play all the other games.

  I've attached the layout I have so far.  The two joysticks are 4/8 way.  Planning on using either MagStik Plus, or UltraStik.  There's a trackball, just left of center.  Above and right of trackball is a spinner.  The rest are buttons.

  First: I don't play fighting games.  So, that cuts down on the number of buttons.

  Second: I went through a list of the games I want to play, and listed the controls for each.  This layout will cover it!

  3) I used the IPAC for the dedicated Defender CP.  I'm unsure whether I can use one for this board.  I'm confused about wiring.  Is there a way to have all these components wired to one interface (IPAC Ultimate I/O, maybe)?  I'm not sure if the IPAC Ultimate can work with RaspberryPi.  Or, do I wire it all up, and plug into PC to program (assign controls), then swap it to RaspberryPi?

  So, advice on layout of CP, and any and all help on wiring this stuff up, please!

  I really appreciate your help!  I'm kinda stuck!

[gedman]

Are you sure you want the buttons in front of the joystick?  I suppose that necessary because of the slimline form factor, but seems to me it would be very hard to play that way.

Why are the button layouts mirrored instead of identical?  It may look nicer visually (symmetrical), but if both players are right-handed it will be rather obscure to be the player on the left.

What are the red and yellow buttons for?

[PL1]

You can do 22 microswitches (P1 Coin and P2 Coin will be on the coin door, right?), trackball, and spinner with an IPac2 (make your own harness for the microswitches, trackball and spinner plug into the Dupont pins on the left) or a Mini-Pac Opti. (comes with the button and optical wiring harnesses)

 
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Have you done a cardboard test panel with that layout?   

Looks like the joysticks are in an uncomfortable position.

Not sure if there's enough room, but you might want to test a layout like below on cardboard.

- P2 Start in upper right so P2 doesn't have to reach across P1

- Pause and Exit moved a little apart from Start buttons so you don't hit them by accident. (might be better if Pause is near P1 and Exit is by P2  )

- Not sure if there's enough room for the trackball (~ 6" x 6") and consider moving the spinner further away from the trackball to reduce the odds of jammed fingers.

- Button layouts on Slagcoin are your friend -- find one that works.   


Scott

[Willard_Bones]

Are you sure you want the buttons in front of the joystick?  I suppose that necessary because of the slimline form factor, but seems to me it would be very hard to play that way.

Why are the button layouts mirrored instead of identical?  It may look nicer visually (symmetrical), but if both players are right-handed it will be rather obscure to be the player on the left.

What are the red and yellow buttons for?

2-player use will be very limited, and usually alternating play, rather than simultaneous.

Two joysticks are primarily for Robotron.

The buttons are laid out for left hand and right hand - not player 1 and player 2.

[Richie_jones]

If your after opinions then mine is that it's a bad layout...joysticks to the left buttons to the right..

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk

[jeremymtc]

If it were me, I'd go with something like the example that PL1 put together, maybe moving the spinner a bit further to the left above the left-hand button bay.

A 2.25" trackball might help make everything an easier fit.

[Titchgamer]

Sorry that layout is terrible!
No other way to put it really!

Firstly dont mirror buttons, p1s need to match p2s unless you are going sticks on the right which is rather unorthodox (think about the natural curvature of your wrist while playing)

Secondly joysticks, bring then down to the side!
You do not want to be reaching over buttons its uncomfortable and impractical, you have nowhere to rest your wrist and you are likely to catch buttons or your other hand.

That should allow you to move the trackball back to centre and back a little again giving you some wrist support.

That leaves your spinner, at this point there wont be much room left so I would suggest doing what I did and front mount it on the CP. it works very well

Thats my 2 cents.

[markc74]

What's the dimensions of your panel?

I'm doing something similar but without the 2nd joystick in a 50x21cm layout and have it perfectly comfortable (after several mock ups  ).

I always use the spinner with my left hand tho which makes it easier as the main joystick is more centred.

[Cynicaster]

I agree, the original proposed layout looks like it would be terribly uncomfortable and awkward to use.

PL1’s suggested layout is a million times better, assuming it would even fit as shown.  I think spinner games would suck because the buttons are so far removed from the spinner. 

If I were that limited on space, I’d eighty-six the track ball altogether and focus on getting a nice twin 8-way joystick layout that can be used both for Robotron and 2-player simultaneous games.  Track balls are cool to have, but not at the expense of compromising virtually every joystick game by forcing a jacked up button layout. 

If the track ball is omitted, there may be adequate space in the center for a dedicated 4-way joystick.  With that approach, you could use some really good dedicated 8-way joysticks for the left and right, rather than the switchable ones.  It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to have more than one 4/8-way switchable joystick on a panel because just about every 4-way game worth playing can be played 2 players with a single joystick. 

[Willard_Bones]

The CP is 26" wide, by 10" deep.

Here's the list of games that I want to play.  The controls are in parentheses. 

Frogger. (4-way)
Arkanoid / Breakout ((1//spinner//1) buttons are same
Mr Do! / Dig Dug (1//4-way//1) (two buttons are both "Pump"
Robotron (8-way//8-way)  14" apart is best.  10" is stock
Tempest / Major Havoc (2 buttons // spinner)
Donkey Kong / DK jr (4-way  // one button)
Elevator Action. (2-way? // 2 buttons)
Centipede (one button. // trackball 2 1/4 size)
Space Invaders. (2 buttons // 1 button)
Galaga. (2-way // 1 button)
Star Castle (2//2)
Omega Race (spinner/2)
Star Trek (spinner/1/1/2)
Pac Man / Ms Pac Man. (4-way)
Asteroids. (2//1//2)
Space Duel (2//1//2) (2 sets for 2 players)
Gravitar (2//1//2)
Missile Command (3//trackball)
Qix (4-way / 2)
Qbert (4-way diagonal)

[n3wt0n]

I think that you could get all that into a tidier layout without having to put the joystick above the buttons. I can only imagine how awkward that would be to play on. How about something that uses a diamond pattern for the buttons? Laythe's Mimic build is only slightly wider than your panel and he managed to squeeze Ultimarc servo sticks in there so it should be possible. Link to Mimic build log->http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,149109.0.html. Then leave the spinner in the same place you have it - slightly above the trackball. Put P1 coin and start side by side at the top left and p2 coin and start side by side at the top right.  You also probably need at least one or two admin buttons. Good luck with your project.

[CheffoJeffo]

Interesting layout. I see what you are going for, but don't think you would be happy with it. I presume from the trackball shift and button mirroring that you are a lefty -- an accommodation often overlooked in CP design.

Good job whittling down the game list. I like some of your choices  (some great games that are often overlooked) and might recommend you go with 2 or even 3 panels to cover your list and provide a decent control experience.

If I were to build swappable CPs to support your games list, I would go with 3 panels:

• 2 sticks with three-button triangle clusters
• Trackball and Spinner
• Buttons-only w/ 2 parallel Asteroids layouts

Or you can shift things around -- perhaps Spinner and Buttons combined in a single panel and move the trackball to the Sticks/Buttons panel.

I think it is important to mount the sticks on-center for a good Robotron experience (hell, since you know the spacing you want, this must be important) and perhaps you can fit 3 clusters of buttons around centered sticks and support righties and lefties for J1 (e.g. - B1 J1 B1 J2 B2).

 

[paigeoliver]

What you have there is essentially unplayable. You cannot put the buttons in front of the sticks. It doesn't work. The only game I can even think of that did that is The Three Stooges, which had to fit 3 players and only had one button that didn't get pressed much. Also nearly unplayable with all the player stations full from what I recall.

[Willard_Bones]

I really appreciate the feedback so far!  I've taken what you have suggested, and studied a little more.  I built a cardboard CP, and have "played" all the games on my list.  With that said, I've attached the most recent design.

With each group of buttons, the most inside button is aligned for thumb use. Remember, these button sets are "right hand" and "Left hand" - not 2-player setups!

Again, I really appreciate your insights and suggestions! Thanks!

[paigeoliver]

That is playable, although traditionally you don't use your thumbs at all with arcade games unless that same hand also controls a joystick.

[Titchgamer]

Thats much better!

I would still be tempted to bring the spinner to the front of the CP so you are not reaching over the track ball but other than that yeah looks much better.

[Paul Olson]

I really appreciate the feedback so far!  I've taken what you have suggested, and studied a little more.  I built a cardboard CP, and have "played" all the games on my list.  With that said, I've attached the most recent design.

With each group of buttons, the most inside button is aligned for thumb use. Remember, these button sets are "right hand" and "Left hand" - not 2-player setups!

Again, I really appreciate your insights and suggestions! Thanks!

I don't see any games on your list that require 4 buttons. I would go to three on each side, and put them in line with the joysticks. The angle you have the buttons at really doesn't look playable. I would put them all in a horizontal row, or maybe very slightly angled to match your hands. Asteroids For asteroids, you could set the inner button on both sides for Hyper space.

With the buttons in line, you could move the spinner above and slightly outside either joystick. I would choose the left so it more closely matches Tempest. With the spinner above the trackball, you will hit it while using the trackball, and it will hurt.

[pbj]

Needs more buttons.

[krangbrain]

I don’t really get it. Why don’t you go with a traditional button and joystick layout? Aesthetics? Your dimensions have more than enough room for a two player setup (or 1P left/right handed). If you’re building this to use on a defender (slimline?) cabinet, I’d say incorporate the three button layout the original CP has and position them conventionally to the joys. I think that your revision is better, but only because it’s closer to a traditional layout.

I agree with Paul Olson, fingers jammed into the spinner won’t be fun. He had good suggestions.

EDIT: I noticed you didn't say it's a defender cabinet, sorry! I still think traditional is best, tho 

[Willard_Bones]

I don’t really get it. Why don’t you go with a traditional button and joystick layout? Aesthetics? Your dimensions have more than enough room for a two player setup (or 1P left/right handed). If you’re building this to use on a defender (slimline?) cabinet, I’d say incorporate the three button layout the original CP has and position them conventionally to the joys. I think that your revision is better, but only because it’s closer to a traditional layout.

I agree with Paul Olson, fingers jammed into the spinner won’t be fun. He had good suggestions.

EDIT: I noticed you didn't say it's a defender cabinet, sorry! I still think traditional is best, tho 

Yes, it _is_ a Defender slimline cabinet. I have a dedicated Defender CP.

I placed the spinner in the center, because some games use it in the left hand (Omega Race, Star Trek) and some have a right hand spinner (Tempest, Major Havoc).

My trackball games are Centipede, Millipede, and Missile Command.  Maybe I should shift the spinner a little to one side, and the trackball a little to the other?


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[Titchgamer]

Or front mount it

[krangbrain]

I placed the spinner in the center, because some games use it in the left hand (Omega Race, Star Trek) and some have a right hand spinner (Tempest, Major Havoc).

Definitely makes sense. Things like this are often compromised unless you make a frankenpanel or aircraft carrier.

My trackball games are Centipede, Millipede, and Missile Command.

Oh, I Gotcha. Yeah, those games don't really require aggressive trackball use, so you should be ok. If it were mine I'd move it just to be safe, and just in case I wanted to add any other games in the future.
 

Maybe I should shift the spinner a little to one side, and the trackball a little to the other?

I don't know, it might look unbalanced. Play around with it and see how it looks and feels.

[Paul Olson]

I don’t really get it. Why don’t you go with a traditional button and joystick layout? Aesthetics? Your dimensions have more than enough room for a two player setup (or 1P left/right handed). If you’re building this to use on a defender (slimline?) cabinet, I’d say incorporate the three button layout the original CP has and position them conventionally to the joys. I think that your revision is better, but only because it’s closer to a traditional layout.

I agree with Paul Olson, fingers jammed into the spinner won’t be fun. He had good suggestions.

EDIT: I noticed you didn't say it's a defender cabinet, sorry! I still think traditional is best, tho 

Yes, it _is_ a Defender slimline cabinet. I have a dedicated Defender CP.

I placed the spinner in the center, because some games use it in the left hand (Omega Race, Star Trek) and some have a right hand spinner (Tempest, Major Havoc).

My trackball games are Centipede, Millipede, and Missile Command.  Maybe I should shift the spinner a little to one side, and the trackball a little to the other?


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So much for my memory, I remembered Tempest being on the left. I still have an Omega Race in the game room, and I would have said that one was on the right. lol

I think I would still chose one side for the spinner though. Even if you can avoid hitting the spinner on trackball games, it is still not going to be very comfortable to use with the trackball there.
It certainly won't be impossible, but when I had a panel with trackball and spinner both in the middle, I rarely wanted to use either.

You will always have to make compromises with control placement, so sort your games by priority, and get it the best for those.

I went modular to try to avoid compromising on controls. It cost me a fortune, and I still had to make compromises. I set the limit to 70 panels (button panels, joystick panels, specialty controller panels, wheel panels, etc), and I had to cut dozens of games off my list to keep it at that. Even with that limit, there are still a bunch of panels that i have never used after testing.

I think you are on a good path with the small number of games, but most of these games would be more enjoyable if you went with three separate cabinets for this.

[paigeoliver]

Left handed spinner games are wrong. They were implemented by engineers who did not understand that the fine control should be in the dominant hand and that lefties were far better with fine controls in their off hand then righties are. In this case doing it wrong is better.

Now if you are a contender for a world record on a left handed spinner game then by all means set it up that way, but in that case you should probably have a real machine.

[Willard_Bones]

Left handed spinner games are wrong. They were implemented by engineers who did not understand that the fine control should be in the dominant hand and that lefties were far better with fine controls in their off hand then righties are. In this case doing it wrong is better.

Now if you are a contender for a world record on a left handed spinner game then by all means set it up that way, but in that case you should probably have a real machine.

Good point!  I hadn't considered that!

Similar to Galaga. Didn't we all play it with our hands crossed, so that we were effectively switching the layout?


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[gedman]

This thread makes me wonder if I am making a mistake putting my spinner on the center-line of the CP with my trackball.

Granted, the original poster is designing a CP for a slimline cabinet while mine is a full-sized Mortal Kombat cab with a fairly large 26.5" x 13" CP surface.

Gedman

[ark_ader]

  Hi!

  I have built a RetroPie, slimline arcade cabinet, with a dedicated Defender CP.  Now I'm going to build a second CP, to play all the other games.

  I've attached the layout I have so far.  The two joysticks are 4/8 way.  Planning on using either MagStik Plus, or UltraStik.  There's a trackball, just left of center.  Above and right of trackball is a spinner.  The rest are buttons.

  First: I don't play fighting games.  So, that cuts down on the number of buttons.

  Second: I went through a list of the games I want to play, and listed the controls for each.  This layout will cover it!

  3) I used the IPAC for the dedicated Defender CP.  I'm unsure whether I can use one for this board.  I'm confused about wiring.  Is there a way to have all these components wired to one interface (IPAC Ultimate I/O, maybe)?  I'm not sure if the IPAC Ultimate can work with RaspberryPi.  Or, do I wire it all up, and plug into PC to program (assign controls), then swap it to RaspberryPi?

  So, advice on layout of CP, and any and all help on wiring this stuff up, please!

  I really appreciate your help!  I'm kinda stuck!

Personally I like your proposed layout.  When you ask for help here, you will get lots of good feedback.  Unfortunately the feedback can be biased.  If you feel comfortable with the button and controller layout, just do it.  You can always change it later on. 

My only complaint is the platform. I would ditch the pi and use an old laptop instead. The pi is lacking in mame (I have retropie too) and the games I own run like a pig on it.  You can make a nice slim cab out of a laptop, and your choices for software a much better.  Incidentally I have a HP Stream 7 that I'm making into a tiny cab, runs windows 8 and is quite nippy for an atom.  These tablets are real cheap and you can load any OS onto it.  Not sure the display will be big enough, but like you the games are not street fighter, thus less complicated.

Do what you want.  Don't take what is offered here as Gospel.  We all game differently. 


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