Dominux8 design flaw or am I missing something?

[8BitMonk]

I have a Dominux8 joystick I'm trying to mount to the bottom of a metal cp. The Dominux restrictor plates take up the recess in the joystick top that usually houses the dust washer so with a dust washer on top of it the joystick won't mount flush, it rests on the dust washer. It looks like I'd need to use some spacers to push the joystick a little off the underside of the cp to make room for the dust washer. Am I missing something?

[nordemoniac]

You're missing a photo 

[8BitMonk]

Ok, see below how a regular WICO joystick (left) has a depression on the top that the dust washer sits in. The stick get's mounted on the underside of a metal CP and the gap allows the dust washer to move with the joystick on the underside of the panel.



With a Dominux8 the restrictor plates go inside the depression (see restrictor plate removed below) that the washer usually sits in meaning that if you undermount the joystick and use a restrictor plate there's no room for the dust washer to move freely unless you use spacers on each post hole.

[nordemoniac]

Aha, thanks. Well, if it's designed to go on top, you'd either have to have the dust washers on top, but with a metal CP I agree that's weird.
Du you need the restrictor plate? Is it possible to mount it underneath the joystick?

[RandyT]

I have a Dominux8 joystick I'm trying to mount to the bottom of a metal cp. The Dominux restrictor plates take up the recess in the joystick top that usually houses the dust washer so with a dust washer on top of it the joystick won't mount flush, it rests on the dust washer. It looks like I'd need to use some spacers to push the joystick a little off the underside of the cp to make room for the dust washer. Am I missing something?

The "design flaw" terminology is a bit harsh.  While I agree that dust washers were originally designed to go below the panel when used with thinner metal panels, it's important to note the vast majority of home builders are not using metal panels, and use the washers on top.  However, as you noted, if one wishes to place the dust washer below the panel on a unit using the restrictor plates, the only thing required to accomplish this is the use of spacers.

[8BitMonk]

Apologies, you're right, 'design flaw' isn't the best term and sounds harsher than I intended. Just a peculiarity I hadn't accounted for. I'll add spacers, wanted to make sure I hadn't missed anything like an alternative way to mount the restrictor.

[vwalbridge]

Seems like a 50 cent bag of washers from Home Depot can solve this problem.

[8BitMonk]

Sure but it's a tad janky. Also would help if there was a note on the website description or little instruction card in the shipped product that mentioned it. 
 

[pbj]

That is admittedly a little stupid in the design department there, Randy.

[RandyT]

That is admittedly a little stupid in the design department there, Randy.

Then I guess, Sanwa, Seimitsu, every Chinese joystick manufacturer, etc... are stupid as well?  No.  The very small fraction of users who are still using dustwashers below the panel still have the option to do so with a simple alternative mounting method.  With the Dominux8 sticks, this isn't even necessary when used as they were originally designed, i.e. without a restrictor.  Adding the restrictor plates negates the space allocated for this, which goes unnoticed by the vast majority of users.

[pbj]

Sanwa isn't selling their sticks as drop in replacements for Wicos.

[RandyT]

Sanwa isn't selling their sticks as drop in replacements for Wicos.

I don't believe I ever stated this.  But they can be, with regard to the dust washer placement, if no restrictor plate is used.  The Dominux8 is a new design.  There are many departures from the WICO, in dimension, feel and capabilities.  It was never intended to be a duplicate of the WICO. 

Also, the dust washer was made to be "pretty" for a reason.

[opt2not]

Sanwa and seimitsu also have multiple mounting plate options. But their stock plate that comes with the stick also has this issue, which is why most fightsticks and Japanese  cabs have a mounting standoff on the bottom side of the CP plate.

Not really a flaw, and not really stupid, it's just par for the course.

[opt2not]

8bitMonk, if you are going with a metal panel I suggest taking queues from the Japanese CP's like Astro City's. There is a welded stand-off that gives you a bit of space to mount flat plate joysticks with a bit of space between the panel and stick.
 



Here's a picture of my Qanba fightstick. Don't know if you can tell, but this metal panel has "punched" standoffs, as if they hammered a mound outwards then drilled a threaded hole for the mounting screws. It's actually a pretty clean solution.

[8BitMonk]

I think I'll try nylon spacers, Ace Hardware has a good selection. I want a single spacer, I don't want to stack washers. Hopefully I can find something that's the right depth, if there's not enough space it will restrict movement and if there's too much there will be gap.

[DeLuSioNal29]

The custom restrictors that I made on my own for my four Dominux8 sticks sat on top of the indentation to allow the washer to sit below it.  (by design).  However, I did notice that when I tightened the joystick to the wood (I had metal CP with wood underneath), the washer didn't move as loosely as I had like.  Solved it with washers as VWbus has suggested.  They work great!

Topic here:  https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,146015.msg1539025.html#msg1539025



DeL

[pbj]

Below the panel dust washers suck anyway.  Hope you like pinched fingers.

[Titchgamer]

 

[pbj]

Sanwa isn't selling their sticks as drop in replacements for Wicos.

I don't believe I ever stated this. 

.....

It was never intended to be a duplicate of the WICO. 

LOLOLOLOLOL 

[DeLuSioNal29]

Talk about off topic...

I created that sign, not Randy.   

I carefully worded it as a Wico "alternative", not a replica or drop in replacement, in case it got PBJ'd in the future. It has a similar design with a rubber grommet, but it's made to be smoother in my opinion and not as "harsh" as a brand new Wico (no break in period). Plus a ton of other benefits he lists on his site.  Swappable ball tops, gold plated switches, the list goes on.

Great attempt though...  I hand it to you.   
 

[8BitMonk]

I was under the impression it was a direct replacement mainly based on the two bullet items below. When I scanned it and saw 'standard mounting pattern' and 'easy installation' and the reference to 'metal panel compatibility' I thought it'd just drop right in. Again, not a huge deal for me but that's where the confusion came from. Might be good to just put a little note on the site or in with the shipped product. Oh yeah, also curious why doesn't mine have the Dominux8 sticker under the restrictors.

• Standard US (WICO/Midway/HAPP/IL/X-Arcade) mounting pattern for easy installation on existing panels and arcade machines.
• Two user adjustable height configurations for wood or metal panel compatibility:  Measured with optional Hand Candy™ ball top, the distance between the bottom surface of the panel and the top of the ball is as follows:  Long: 3.4"  /  Short: 2.78"

[opt2not]

Try harder.

 

 

[pbj]

"The throw is modeled after the WICO leaf, and it is virtually identical.  If the Dominux wasn't smoother feeling, it'd be nearly impossible to tell them apart when mounted in a panel. "

This is a bizarre argument but thus is BYOAC.

[nordemoniac]

I think I'll try nylon spacers, Ace Hardware has a good selection. I want a single spacer, I don't want to stack washers. Hopefully I can find something that's the right depth, if there's not enough space it will restrict movement and if there's too much there will be gap.

How about a wood/acrylic plate slightly thicker than the dust washer which covers the whole joystick?
Then you can drill holes placed in the exact positions, and have a larger opening in the middle where the washer go.

That way it won't move anywhere.

[RandyT]

Wow.   The Dominux8 is, by default, an 8-way stick (thus the "8" in the name).  After it was released, there was call for a 4-way version, a gated 8-way, and a shorter throw for those who like the more truncated throw of the WICO.  So I put in the effort to design a simple add-on, to satisfy those requests, which does so at the expense of requiring some washers if you want to use them with the dust washer below the panel. 

From the looks of this thread, it would have been better to not offer the restrictors at all.  For that, you have my apologies.

[pbj]

[Titchgamer]

I wouldnt take this to heart Randy.

The OP answered his own question in the very first post which means the solution to this non problem was obvious.

I have not tried one of these sticks but I am greatfull all the same that you put the time into your products to accommodate the community.

Just a shame the courier fees are so high otherwise I would probably try more of your products.

[RandyT]

"The throw is modeled after the WICO leaf, and it is virtually identical.  If the Dominux wasn't smoother feeling, it'd be nearly impossible to tell them apart when mounted in a panel. "

That quote refers to the throw, not every aspect of it's design.  But again, nice try

This is a bizarre argument but thus is BYOAC.

A man walks into the doctor's office and says "it hurts when I bend my arm this way......" 

[pbj]

Everyone loves you and your joysticks, Randy.  Now go etch out some lexan squares and sell them as a $10 upgrade.

[behrmr]

Wow.   The Dominux8 is, by default, an 8-way stick (thus the "8" in the name).  After it was released, there was call for a 4-way version, a gated 8-way, and a shorter throw for those who like the more truncated throw of the WICO.  So I put in the effort to design a simple add-on, to satisfy those requests, which does so at the expense of requiring some washers if you want to use them with the dust washer below the panel. 

From the looks of this thread, it would have been better to not offer the restrictors at all.  For that, you have my apologies.

We would all prefer that you design and manufacture an entirely new base for each of your restrictor options and then aptly name them Dominux4, Dominux2, and Dominux8.  That way you can raise the price of the Dominux8 stick, and then offer a similarly higher priced product for each new product to recoup your sunk costs.  Your efficient and cost effective solutions baffle us.

[nordemoniac]

Woow... what's with the negativity guys? Come on...

[HaRuMaN]

Woow... what's with the negativity guys? Come on...

You must be new here. 

[nordemoniac]

Woow... what's with the negativity guys? Come on...

You must be new here.

Relatively, yeah.
But still... This community has so much to offer, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback for something that REALLY didn't deserve the attention (my crappy first-build-budget-upright cabinet), but at least it made me feel good to share what I've been doing, and helped me along. The different projects here have taught me a lot that I can use for future builds, and the negativity just pulls the experience way down. 

[opt2not]

Thick skin man, thick skin.

[nordemoniac]

Thick skin man, thick skin.

[8BitMonk]

So I put in the effort to design a simple add-on, to satisfy those requests, which does so at the expense of requiring some washers if you want to use them with the dust washer below the panel. 

From the looks of this thread, it would have been better to not offer the restrictors at all.  For that, you have my apologies.

I realize you're probably defensive cause some people have piled on here but as a loyal customer haughty responses like this annoy me. The subtext seems to be 'you're lucky I even made these' and 'just stack some washers dummy' which is real nice considering I dropped $50 on your joystick. Yes, I was aware I could stack washers, it's not like I didn't know how to make it work. I posted the question to see if I missed something because the description on the site makes it sound like it's a straight drop in replacement and there's nothing that gives you a heads up saying 'hey if you're using an original metal control panel you'll need to use some spacers'. I appreciate it evolved over time but not everyone knows the history or your products.   

Anyway... 

The problem with just stacking a few washers is that you want the height just right so there's no gap or restriction.

These work nicely.



Another small heads up for others who buy the Dominux8, the shaft is too big for an original dust washer. If you're like me and don't care for the super shiny acrylic washer that comes with it then you'll have to drill out the hole in the old washer to make it work. Again, not a huge deal, just not something I anticipated.

[RandyT]

The subtext seems to be 'you're lucky I even made these' and 'just stack some washers dummy' which is real nice considering I dropped $50 on your joystick. Yes, I was aware I could stack washers, it's not like I didn't know how to make it work.

Your delivery of the subtext is much harsher than I would ever consider making, but unfortunately there are some basic realities at play.  The first is that there are two options for specialized items like this.  The first is to do everything one can to keep the costs of production as low as possible, and within reach of as many as possible, while attempting to cover as many of the typical users requirements as possible.  The other, is to cover every possible user requirement and take a "the sky is the limit" approach for pricing.  While the latter might seem attractive at it's onset, sticker shock would likely keep those who would be more than happy to have the former within the limits of their budget, from considering them.

Could I include a plate to make below panel dustwashers (which is no longer the preferred placement by the majority of builders) a part of the restrictor add-on?   Absolutely.  But due to the extra material and machine time to make them, it would double their cost, and the vast majority would be paying extra for a part they tossed in the bin.  I could also simply add these plates as an extra option, but I'm willing to bet that most would simply use the solution you did, rather than paying the extra for the part.  So that limits the market for such an item to a small percentage of a small percentage, of an already very small market.

But in the end, yes, I could have simply left the Dominux8 as an 8-way only, with the below the panel dust washer capability exactly like that of the WICO, and sheltered myself from some of the colorful terminology used in this thread.  Is that really the approach members of this community would be more likely to appreciate?

[opt2not]

Are you sure that's an original Wico dust washer? Looks like a Japanese washer meant for joysticks with a shaft cover. Most likely Sanwa.  Wicos have a thicker shaft than a shaft cover installed onto a japan stick. They are not standard.

[8BitMonk]

But in the end, yes, I could have simply left the Dominux8 as an 8-way only, with the below the panel dust washer capability exactly like that of the WICO, and sheltered myself from some of the colorful terminology used in this thread.  Is that really the approach members of this community would be more likely to appreciate?

... or you could put a simple note on the website or in the shipped package which would cost you pennies. It's more of a customer communication issue.  But whatever, I'm over it, it was a very simple question with a simple fix that I expected would be put to bed with a response or two, not turn into a huge deal.

Are you sure that's an original Wico dust washer?

I'll check again but it's what came with the NOS WICO's I have, the shaft diameters did appear to be different though when I looked last night.

[Titchgamer]

But in the end, yes, I could have simply left the Dominux8 as an 8-way only, with the below the panel dust washer capability exactly like that of the WICO, and sheltered myself from some of the colorful terminology used in this thread.  Is that really the approach members of this community would be more likely to appreciate?

... or you could put a simple note on the website or in the shipped package which would cost you pennies. It's more of a customer communication issue.  But whatever, I'm over it, it was a very simple question with a simple fix that I expected would be put to bed with a response or two, not turn into a huge deal.

I cant believe this thread has become what it has!

You answered your own question in the first post by observing you needed spacers.

If you are indulging in this hobby you need a certain amount of know how, a little ingenuity and some DIY skills.

You should not really require a note from the manufacturer saying if you need to space it use spacers.

Sure it will cost Randy nothing to put it on his website and yeah cost him pennies to ship it with 4 washers but I cant believe such a big deal has been made of all this.
 

[RandyT]

Dust washer placement information, and requirements thereto, have been added to the notes in the product description.

[8BitMonk]

I cant believe this thread has become what it has!

You answered your own question in the first post by observing you needed spacers.

If you are indulging in this hobby you need a certain amount of know how, a little ingenuity and some DIY skills.

You should not really require a note from the manufacturer saying if you need to space it use spacers.

Sure it will cost Randy nothing to put it on his website and yeah cost him pennies to ship it with 4 washers but I cant believe such a big deal has been made of all this.

Give me a ---smurfing--- break, are you seriously lecturing me on know how in this hobby? Do you think I posted originally because I didn't know how to add spacers? Good lord, this kind of condescending dismissive ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- is exactly what I'm talking about. Your response(s) contributed nothing to this topic, zero, other to piss off the OP.

[Titchgamer]

What could I possibly add to solving your problem?
You answered it in post 1... Add the bloody spacers!

That post was not a attack aimed directly at you by the way.

But this thread seems to of of somehow painted Randy and his product in a bad light.

With people complaining that his design is "flawed" and he should invest his time and money into a non existent problem.

The main point is for someone stumbling across this thread it could put them off buying one of these sticks or other products for a problem that is nothing.

I can understand why Randy is maybe feeling a little under appreciated here because thats how I would feel in his shoes.

I do not have one of these sticks, I live on the other side of the world so dont really order anything from him but I do appreciate what he does so I might buy stuff in the future.

As I said before though carriage is a killer so not that likely :p

[pbj]

[8BitMonk]

You shouldn't chime in on ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- you don't understand, especially in inflammatory ways, you've posted nothing constructive in this thread. You throw in a 'This Thread too Long' meme, then dismissively say 'the OP answered his own question himself', then proceed to lecture me on how it's a stupid easy fix when you have no idea what you're talking about. 

If you'd actually bothered to read you'd know that my question was NOT answered in the first post. I asked about alternative ways to mount the restrictor plates because with many joysticks you mount the restrictor on the bottom. I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything and really didn't want to disassemble the joystick and start experimenting so I did a quick post. I already apologized to Randy for using the word 'design flaw' in the title and my communication with him has been very civil, you're the one being an ass.

You can 'add to solving the problem' by not chiming, interjections like yours (and others btw) are what completely derailed this thread which may be useful to the next person who has the same question.

[Titchgamer]

Dude you are the one bitching and making this "about me".

I couldn't give a toss really its your stick, your build.

As I said I dont own these sticks and never have.
But why would you need to disassemble the stick?
From the pics you posted at the start of the thread the top is solid and you said the restrictor sits on the top in the recess so great.
Thats how its designed to fit awesome!

So why would you not use spacers to space it a few mm from the panel?

I dont understand the problem here sorry!

As a wise man once said keep meadow muffin simple!

Sorry you have taken offence to something where none was intended but maybe you need one of those thicker skins someone mentioned?

[8BitMonk]

I dont understand the problem here sorry!

No, no you really don't.

[Titchgamer]

I dont understand the problem here sorry!

No, no you really don't.

Well guess we can leave that there then :p

Good luck with your build

[pbj]

So what holds the restrictors in place if you use spacers to drop the joystick assembly?  Gravity?

[8BitMonk]

So what holds the restrictors in place if you use spacers to drop the joystick assembly?  Gravity?

The restrictor is held on by the tiny screws (RED arrow), the spacers go where the ORANGE arrow points to. If you look at the bottom YELLOW arrow you'll see the restrictor screw holes line up which is why you'd think the restrictor could possibly be bottom mounted.

[opt2not]

I think there is just a bit of misunderstanding going on here with the OP. He was expecting a drop-in solution to a metal panel, but as I've tried to explain most metal panels either have welded mounts/stand-offs or actual washers when separation is needed.
Most non-Japanese candy cab metal panels, like for Dynamos for example rarely had their dust washers under the panel. Those that did, used washers for the separation.

It just comes down to a bit of experience from more years in this hobby or exposure to more original cabs. I don't think Randy's product is trying to pull a fast one here, it doesn't merit getting mad at him IMO.

[8BitMonk]

It just comes down to a bit of experience from more years in this hobby or exposure to more original cabs. I don't think Randy's product is trying to pull a fast one here, it doesn't merit getting mad at him IMO.

I don't think it comes down to years of experience at all. The original question was really simple, do I use spacers to stand off the joystick or has the option of bottom mounting them already been accounted for in the design in some way that I'm unaware of. I didn't accuse Randy of anything, that was other people interjecting, which in retrospect has been the whole problem with this thread. And I'm not referring to you opt. 

[pbj]

Do any other joysticks use a top mounted restrictor like this??

[opt2not]

It just comes down to a bit of experience from more years in this hobby or exposure to more original cabs. I don't think Randy's product is trying to pull a fast one here, it doesn't merit getting mad at him IMO.

I don't think it comes down to years of experience at all. The original question was really simple, do I use spacers to stand off the joystick or has the option of bottom mounting them already been accounted for in the design in some way that I'm unaware of. I didn't accuse Randy of anything, that was other people interjecting, which in retrospect has been the whole problem with this thread. And I'm not referring to you opt. 

Cheers bro 
We all get over passionate about the hobby at times, myself included. Hopefully the solution you chose works out and is satisfactory.

Do any other joysticks use a top mounted restrictor like this??

None that I can think of from the major manufacturers. I think Randy had an older stick that had an above-panel restricted stick but I vaguely remember the name. Omni, perhaps?

[PL1]

Do any other joysticks use a top mounted restrictor like this??

Ultimarc has a swappable top-mount restrictor for the U360.

http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_info.html

 

Mameroom/Northcoast Custom Arcades makes after-market above-the panel switching restrictors for several types of sticks.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150563.0.html

I think Randy had an older stick that had an above-panel restricted stick but I vaguely remember the name. Omni, perhaps?

I think you're referring to the OMNI-Stik PRODIGY.



It had a 4-way/8/way switching lever above the panel, but the restrictor plate (red) was on the bottom of the stick.




Scott

[opt2not]

Ahhhhh. In my head I was thinking ultimarc's top panel mount, but for some reason thought of Randy's Omni Prodigy. Thanks for clearing that up PL1. 

[pbj]

So, nothing besides after market cruft.  Figures.

[RandyT]

Do any other joysticks use a top mounted restrictor like this??

So, nothing besides after market cruft.  Figures.

Not exactly so.  The original WICO 4-ways, original Pacman stick, and probably some others I can't think of ATM.  The WICO also had diamond shaped restriction in the lower portion of the base, probably for extra wear factor.  These were not add-on restriction, rather molded or cut into the base.

Placing the restriction at the bottom of the Dominux8 is not possible, without many changes to the design and the parts.  It would add significantly more cost, increase the below panel depth footprint, and likely negate the feature of the installer being able to select the shaft length they desire.  And after all that, the net result would be only to solve the dustwasher issue, which isn't even an issue for most.  Simply adding spacers is a better, and more economical alternative, for those who need both restriction and the dustwasher below a metal panel.

[CheffoJeffo]