Button types, joystick types, costs, lighting, etc.

[Batchman]

So I've reached the point where I have chosen a pedestal and control panel to build. I have the plans for it. I just have to select the parts. And to do so, it would help to have some idea what is out there, and how they work.

So I've got at least a couple of choices, here. I can go with the same thing the original maker did, and just use different colored regular buttons for each player ... or I can try and go with buttons that I can light up, for a more neon impression (especially since I'm going for a Tron-themed pedestal). So what kind of buttons are available, what kind do I want, and how much extra does it cost to do illuminated buttons?

The same kind of question with joysticks. I had been convinced to go with some more expensive 360 sticks that could mimic other joystick types, back when I thought I wouldn't have a dedicated four way, but since the layout and plans I have -include- a four way, I don't need anything more than four basic 8-way joysticks ... so what's the best basic 8-way joystick for basic arcade games and brawling games like X-Men? And what kinds of differences are there if you want to illuminate joystick balls?

What's the best trackball or spinner? (Or at least, what are the different opinions on them, and why?)

This time I really am moving forward on my project. I have the plans, I will buy the wood in July and start cutting ... and it is time to start figuring out the brands and models of controls I am going to write. (And yes, as soon as I start cutting the wood, I'll start a build thread ... unless y'all think all my parts questions should be in the build thread, as well.

[Slippyblade]

Since you don't need anything fancy, go with Happ Competition sticks.  They are about $10 on average and you can get them with colored bats.  As far as buttons go, I really like Groovy Game Gear's ClassX buttons with the leaf switches.  The solid color ones are about $3.50 each w/ leaf switches.  If you want light up buttons though, go with the Electric Ice buttons with leaf switch.  Those will run you about $7.25 with the simpler light module.  More if you get the high powered version.

Keep in mind that you will need some kind of driver if you go LED lights.

[Batchman]

Don't hit me ... just asking ... what if you really prefer balls to bats? Are the bats removable and replaceable with balls (obviously purchased separately), or would I have to go for a different joystick type? And why is this conversation sounding vaguely pornographic?!? Sometimes I just don't know about this hobby!

[Slippyblade]

I don't think the Happ sticks can be swapped for balls.  I think the bats are molded directly on the shafts.  For ball top sticks, the Zippyy sticks aren't bad.

Just make sure the ball fits in your hand properly when your fingers are wrapped around the shaft... (BOOM!)

[wp34]

I'll echo what Slippyblade said about the joysticks.  I have the U360's and they are a great stick.  But if you are interested in classic 4-way action you can't beat a dedicated 4-way stick.  You will be more than happy with the Happs.  I believe Paradise Arcade sells replacement shafts that would allow you to swap out a ball-top.  They are also hollow so you can light them.

Do you have any interest (or space) for dedicated cabinets eventually?

[PL1]

I don't think the Happ sticks can be swapped for balls.

Tornado Terry sells Happ Competition sticks with the battop shafts replaced by balltop shafts.

 


Scott

[Batchman]

Do you have any interest (or space) for dedicated cabinets eventually?

Not at this point in my life. I am renting a room in somebody else's house. "I" will be building my pedestal version in a friend's garage, using my friend's tools ... and to be honest, he will be building it while I work along with him, trying to learn what I'm doing, and hopefully not losing any fingers in the process. He knows the wood and the tools ... I know (slightly), and am researching, the techniques, parts, and software.

In a perfect world, we would be building two of them, one for me, and one for him, but while he says he is -very- interested in the project, he also says he has no room to put in even a pedestal, and will come over and use mine once in a while. Yet he's still willing to work on this with me for free. What a guy!

[Slippyblade]

Make sure to buy him a beer... AFTER the saw work is done!

[Batchman]

As far as buttons go, I really like Groovy Game Gear's ClassX buttons with the leaf switches.  The solid color ones are about $3.50 each w/ leaf switches.  If you want light up buttons though, go with the Electric Ice buttons with leaf switch.  Those will run you about $7.25 with the simpler light module.  More if you get the high powered version.

Keep in mind that you will need some kind of driver if you go LED lights.

OK, I've been reviewing all the buttons available at GGG ... lots of different options available. I had already seen a suggestion somewhere of going for at least one leaf switch button for players one and two, for games with rapid fire ... but you suggest I just go all with leaf switches? The buttons are a minor enough expense (even with buying something like 40 of them) that I am more than willing to spend the extra (roughly) $60 to have all leaf buttons, if that will improve quality or longevity.

I've also been looking at lighting options. The Ice2 that you recommended (I am assuming, since I did not see any Ice1 or just plain Ice) came out to about $7.25 each for the button, leaf switch, and light wiring kit.

There were several other lighting options that did not include wiring kits. These included the light-up bezers, which included an LED colored to the color of the button, and the Chromalite and Spectralite versions, which included somewhat translucent button tops and an LED to shine through them. But no mention of lighting kits on them.

Which makes me wonder if the Ice2 is the kind of button I've heard mentioned that can light up -any- color, and even -change- it's color on demand, which would explain the extra required wiring. If that's the case, if I do not need my buttons to change colors, might I still get a very nice lit button panel with one of the other three options, and in the process, possibly avoid a lot of extra wiring and programming hassles? Again, I'm just asking because I am new to this, and am learning what is out there, and how it works.

Make sure to buy him a beer... AFTER the saw work is done!

A beer? I'll throw him a whole dang pizza party!



As far as the joysticks go, I do want ball-top, and hopefully with the possibility of lighting up the four main joysticks. Looking at the Zippyy joysticks after the mention above, I like the options available on the balls, and it looks like if the sticks are hollow, it might be fairly easy to light up one of the gemstone ball-tops with an led in the shaft ... good idea? These will be wood panel mounted, but I am still thinking of doing a short stick for the four way, and probably the long stick for the four main joysticks ... I just hope they aren't too long.

Anybody greatly dislike the Zippyy joysticks, and want to offer arguments against them? So far they look like they would probably be all right to me.

[Slippyblade]

Zippyy sticks have a solid shaft.  If you wanted to light them, you'd need to find a hollow shaft somewhere.  I think Paradise might have those.  There are not a lot of arguments against Zippyys.  They are an inexpensive stick

In re: to buttons.  I prefer matching the buttons on a player.  So if button 1 is leaf, I want buttons 2-6 to be the same simply for consistency of feel.  When I'm playing Street Fighter, for instance, I want my jab button to feel the same as fierce punch.

Yes, the Electric Ice buttons are a frosted plastic, the LED module that plugs into them is an RGB module that can change to any color.  There are a ton of options when looking at LED buttons though, depending on what you want.  Single color, lit bezels, RGB.  Just gotta make a decision.

[Batchman]

So I continue thinking, and here are my thoughts. This is going to be my first project, and there's already going to be an incredibly heavy learning curve going on. I am thinking this time I just go for the basic buttons, and leave worrying about adding illumination for another product, or potentially a later upgrade after the main build is finished. Just the basic build looks gorgeous, already, and the only reason I wanted to go illuminated was so that I could claim that a little bit of the planning was my own. Very likely better to save that for a later project, and go as simple as possible for this first one.


So, no need to worry about illumination ... just need to figure out basic buttons. I am more than willing to go with the ClassX buttons mentioned earlier for most my buttons ... from the price quoted, I am guessing I want to go the True Leaf Pro option for the leaf switches? I will be going with exactly two Happ buttons, because they have a color that I want for two of my buttons that the ClassX do not offer. Any thoughts on the micro-leaf option on those buttons?

Everything I have heard about the Turbo Twist has been good, so I am more than willing to go with that for my spinner, unless people have a reason that I should consider something else. My control panel does not have the space (underneath) for a huge spinner, but there are a few inches of space if needed. I am also considering getting the steering wheel attachment ... but I was wondering ... how odd and difficult is it in a racing game to make use of a horizontal wheel, when in both the arcade and real life they are usually much more vertical?

Any recommendations on the track ball?

[wp34]

I think you are wise to keep it simple and hold off on illumination. 

The ClassX buttons are great.  I have the True Leaf on my cabinet and am very happy with them.

For spinners and track ball I suspect you cannot go wrong with either Ultimarc or GGG.  I've used both the TT2 and TT Up/Down from GGG and they both work great.  I've not used the steering wheel attachment but occasionally play racing games with my TT Up/Down and it works surprisingly well.  Very well actually. 

I have the Electric Ice trackball from GGG and am very happy with it. 

[PL1]

Good call on skipping RGB LED buttons for your first build.   

ClassX buttons with True-Leaf Pro switches are a great choice, as is the TT2 spinner.   

If you get a steering wheel for the TT2, strongly consider the 7" wheel -- I wish Randy sold a slightly larger version, but . . . physics, leverage, etc.

I will be going with exactly two Happ buttons, because they have a color that I want for two of my buttons that the ClassX do not offer.

There is a slight but noticeable difference in the Happ and ClassX bezels and a very noticable difference in the feel of the Happ/MicroLeaf and ClassX/True-Leaf Pro button/switch combinations. 

There is another option to consider: Rit dye.

Since buttons are so inexpensive, buy some white ClassX buttons for dye tests and the Happ buttons as an emergency backup.

One nice thing about the ClassX design is that you can run dye tests on just the switch holder part of the button and if it comes out bad, the ugly is hidden under the panel.   


Scott

[Batchman]

And since all I have to dye are a couple of button units, should be able to get away with doing them in a small sauce pan or something. The dye is inexpensive, and appears to be available at Walmart ... that might be a good option, and allow me to stay with the same quality of materials for all my buttons. I think I'm willing to go this route. Thank you!

[PL1]

There are several posts around here detailing the process and the type of Rit dye. (IIRC people have had better success with liquid than powder)

If your local Walmart is like the one near here, you'll find the powder dye in the fabrics section and the liquid dye in the cleaning supplies section.   

I used a Pyrex bowl and a wire button holder to see if translucent buttons would take dye. (they don't)

A candy thermometer can also help you get more consistent results since water temperature, dye concentration, and soak-time all factor into the end result.

https://www.ritstudio.com/techniques/materials/buttons-beads/


Scott

[Batchman]

OK, time to talk about my control panel for a bit. On this thing (yes, it's on the edge of Frankenpanel), I will have 42 buttons (or perhaps 41 ... still debating between a button and an actual plunger for the pinball ball launch). Six joysticks. Track ball and Spinner.

The trackball and spinner will both fit on the same controller, and plug simply into a USB port.

But what kind of controller card will I need to handle the rest? Understand, three of the joysticks can be wired together (the main player one joystick, the 4-way joystick, and the Tron flight-stick will all be player one) and the first two main player one buttons can be wired up with the two 4-way joystick buttons and the flight stick trigger, but that still leaves 56 inputs, if I am figuring correctly (16 for the 'four' joysticks, and 40 for the buttons). Am I figuring this correctly? What kind of card would cover that well?

Is there anything else that needs to be wired in the same way that I'm not thinking of. Remember, I'm new to this ... this is my first time.

[Slippyblade]

What are you possibly going to do with 40 buttons. I mean you need 6 each for player 1 and 2, 4 each for player 3 and 4 that's 20 buttons plus a couple of admin.

[Batchman]

The control panel plans that I chose have 7 buttons each for player 1 and 2. 4 buttons each for 3 and 4, 8 buttons for p1-4 start and coin. 4 buttons for admin stuff, 6 buttons for pinball stuff, and two more buttons for (I am guessing) the 4-way joystick.

The design I am using has been appreciated by a lot of people, and called frankenpanel by a few. But it worked quite well for the last person (I know of) who built it, and I hope it will work equally well for me.

[jeremymtc]

You can always double up on button functions for pinball or other emulators. Your flipper buttons can act as credit or admin buttons for MAME, and your regular MAME buttons can be used as credit/admin for pinball. I like to use my right-hand joystick on my 2P panel as a pinball plunger (hey, it's spring-loaded, it already exists, and actually works quite well.)

You'll probably be looking at using two IPAC2s (32 inputs each) or equivalent if you truly need 40 buttons. If it were me, I'd economize on button/input numbers keeping in mind that interfaces like the IPAC allow for shifted button functions, and that you can duplicate buttons/sticks -- for example, your 4-way stick (and any associated buttons), and Tron stick, can wire to the same inputs on your encoder as your 8-way P1 position.

[PL1]

You can always double up on button functions for pinball

Very true.   

Here are the overlapping MAME and pinball defaults.




Scott

[Batchman]

You can always double up on button functions for pinball or other emulators. Your flipper buttons can act as credit or admin buttons for MAME, and your regular MAME buttons can be used as credit/admin for pinball. I like to use my right-hand joystick on my 2P panel as a pinball plunger (hey, it's spring-loaded, it already exists, and actually works quite well.)

You'll probably be looking at using two IPAC2s (32 inputs each) or equivalent if you truly need 40 buttons. If it were me, I'd economize on button/input numbers keeping in mind that interfaces like the IPAC allow for shifted button functions, and that you can duplicate buttons/sticks -- for example, your 4-way stick (and any associated buttons), and Tron stick, can wire to the same inputs on your encoder as your 8-way P1 position.

I will think about the P2 joystick as plunger, but for the rest, I want to go buttons ... though I do not want to be overly obvious on it, so they will be black buttons on the black laminated sides of the control panel. And whatever controller(s) I need, I see little reason not to double up the player one, tron stick, and 4 way joysticks and their buttons. Just wondered if anybody had preferences in controller 'cards', so now I'll look into the IPAC2s a little more. Thank you for that.

Because even if I doubled up the pinball keys, as well as the different player one keys and buttons, that would still leave me with a need for 52 inputs (not including the trackball and spinner, which will have their own separate card, though at least both of them will 'fit' on one card) so I'd probably still need the 2 IPAC2s.

[edit]Just reread on both the IPAC2 and the IPAC4. I calculate I will need 55 inputs, and the IPAC4 provides 56. Is there any reason to avoid the IPAC4? Do I need separate inputs to do shifted commands, if I find I need them? Or should I just want the two IPAC2s for the extra space, just in case? (64 as opposed to 56.) I have to say, reading about these, they do sound like very good units![/edit]

[Batchman]

As for spinner and trackball ... I am not trying to say anything against Ultimarc, but their trackball doesn't look (to me) to be as advanced as the GGG versions, so unless I hear otherwise, I will probably go with GGG. For one thing, it looks like either GGG trackball is already going to come with the Opti-Wiz included, to which I ought to also be able to hook up the TT.

But some questions on the regular GGG trackball ...

Regular vs. Highball? Which would you prefer?

Regular vs high encoder?

Regular vs hq bearings?

If I go with all three enhanced versions, I am getting closer and closer to the cost of the ICE model, which looks to include all of the above, anyway. Perhaps I should just accept the extra cost for the ice and go with it. If I get the ICE and want it illuminated, but don't want pulses or color changes or the rest, can I simply illuminate it one color easily, without needing special LED boards and such?

[jeremymtc]

There's nothing at all wrong with an IPAC4, if that will suit the number of inputs you need. No extra inputs are needed to make use of shifted keys -- the P1 start button on the IPAC units acts as the shift key when held, and you can assign any keycode you want to any of the existing inputs.

There are a number of different solutions on the market, and I threw the IPACs out there mainly as an example. You might also check out GGGs KeyWiz products, the import Zero Delay and XinMo encoders, etc. I'm happily using an IPAC4 that dates from the mid-2000s with nary an issue, and have a XinMo game controller encoder in another panel that also works just fine. So long as you have enough inputs, and the encoder outputs the kind of signal you want (eg; keyboard or gamepad), you won't really go wrong.

I don't have any direct experience with Ultimarc or GGG trackballs, but a number of people have expressed good thoughts about both here, but maybe with an edge to the GGG unit. If you're also going with a TT spinner, I think the GGG unit would be a no-brainer to be able to share the encoder board.

[Batchman]

Within a day or two of placing my first order with GGG. Will be getting my player 1 & 2 joysticks, 4 player joystick, buttons for the above three joysticks, and my player 1-4 start buttons, plus the TT2, along with a premium knob and the 7" steering wheel.

This is largely my last chance to ask questions before placing this order, so I thought I would see if anyone was willing to provide their opinions on the need for the high grade ball bearings, high grade encoder, and high ball option (all of which I am currently planning on going for). I also wondered, do I have any reason to want the weight thingy? And what are anybody's preferences on the flat, versus raised knobs?

[Slippyblade]

The weight thing is purely preference.  It will make the spinner spin longer, but it takes more 'oomph' to get it moving.  I like a smoother, lighter spin.

[Batchman]

That's what I thought/was hoping. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't needed to balance the weight of the steering wheel when in use or anything.

[paigeoliver]

I am only addressing the stick issue.

If I had to choose a single cheap and easily available stick to play all my 8-way games with then it would be the Happ Super. It is durable, has a decent feel, and most importantly it has a smooth even circular movement that works well with all types of games.

[Slippyblade]

If I had to choose a single cheap and easily available stick to play all my 8-way games with then it would be the Happ Super. It is durable, has a decent feel, and most importantly it has a smooth even circular movement that works well with all types of games.

Super instead of comp? What do you dislike about the comps?  Just curious, actually.

[paigeoliver]

If I had to choose a single cheap and easily available stick to play all my 8-way games with then it would be the Happ Super. It is durable, has a decent feel, and most importantly it has a smooth even circular movement that works well with all types of games.

Super instead of comp? What do you dislike about the comps?  Just curious, actually.

Both those stick designs go back to the late 80s. The supers seem to wear better. Never had to replace one. There is a reason they cost a couple dollars more.

[Slippyblade]

Got it.  I tend to like the comps since they come with a selection of colored handles.  Never done a side by side though, I probably should.

[Rockstead]

Zippyy sticks have a solid shaft.  If you wanted to light them, you'd need to find a hollow shaft somewhere.  I think Paradise might have those.  There are not a lot of arguments against Zippyys.  They are an inexpensive stick

In re: to buttons.  I prefer matching the buttons on a player.  So if button 1 is leaf, I want buttons 2-6 to be the same simply for consistency of feel.  When I'm playing Street Fighter, for instance, I want my jab button to feel the same as fierce punch.

Yes, the Electric Ice buttons are a frosted plastic, the LED module that plugs into them is an RGB module that can change to any color.  There are a ton of options when looking at LED buttons though, depending on what you want.  Single color, lit bezels, RGB.  Just gotta make a decision.

How do you find the Zippyy's compare to the Happ Super or Comp? I couldn't find any reviews on the Zippyy's, nor a comparison to the Happ's.

[yotsuya]

Zippyy's are cheap for a reason.

I used a Super on a bar top for my nephew's, and it actually does 8-way and 4-way pretty well.