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Author Topic: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing  (Read 42017 times)

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mimic

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2017, 10:35:36 am »
....but it seems like the people have spoken.  VR is the next 3d tv.


Such an ignorant statement. No, people have NOT spoken. The only people that have spoken are those that didn't try the real thing, with controllers in room-scale environment. Once you tried that, then you know THERE IS NOTHING LIKE IT!

I purchased my Oculus Rift a little over month ago and I have NEVER been as impressed by something as the feeling of being COMPLETELY somewhere else! It's one thing to play Doom 3, it is completely another to be IN Doom 3! The sense of realism that your brain perceives when standing on a ledge of a high building and testing with my foot, that I am really safe and not gonna fall down is out of this world!

It may not be perfect yet, it has its cons, but I am glad I am getting in at the beginning of the gaming revolution, and even in case revolution will never happen, home VR beats any kind of 3D "attraction" that you wait for for 2 hours at Universal Studios or Disney for 5 minutes of "fun". For $600 (headset no computer or video card, which you should already have if you consider yourself a gamer) its way more entertaining being not only 3D, not only immersive, unlike said attractions at Disney/Universal, it's interactive and there is no time limit, its yours as much as you want!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:37:56 am by mimic »

pbj

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #161 on: May 04, 2017, 11:39:01 am »
Lot of no true scotsman there, mimic.  I think the point is that if half-assed implementations aren't capturing the popular interest, there's going to be no demand for high end.

Anyway, the market will determine the outcome of this, regardless of what any of us think.

 :cheers:

Nobody cares about your hot takes on Arcade1Up cabinets.

ChadTower

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2017, 12:07:36 pm »



FWIW, theme parks are starting to roll out VR integrated rides.  They're cheaper and safer than the ones we've always had.  There have always been some like the Back to the Future ride at Universal but now they're really starting to go all in.

Howard_Casto

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2017, 01:02:06 pm »
Lot of no true scotsman there, mimic.  I think the point is that if half-assed implementations aren't capturing the popular interest, there's going to be no demand for high end.

Anyway, the market will determine the outcome of this, regardless of what any of us think.

 :cheers:

They pretty much have.  While sales aren't decidedly anemic, they aren't good enough to justify the insane r&d costs, not to mention the extra costs to game developers for VR specific content in a game when they can sell the same game without said content and still sell millions of copies.  The VR goggles have been out for quite a while now and there isn't a single "killer app" that people are flocking to, which is needed to push the devices out of the curiosity stage. 

I've said this a million times on this forum but some of you need to pick out your ears.  Optional gaming accessories do not sell well... this isn't opinion, it's fact.  Go back the entire history of console and pc gaming and you'll find this.  The few exceptions to this rule are accessories that fix a defect in the standard equipment, like the 6 button genesis pad or the wii's nunchuck accessory and even then they get a mere fraction of the support  of the default stuff. 

I mean you can look at the VR units like a monitor, but even then it looks like they aren't going to sell, thus my comparison to 3d tvs.  A 3d gaming monitor is a lot cheaper than a headset and the glasses are far less cumbersome and you would get a rudimentary 3d effect... yet no one is interested.... 3d monitor/tv sales tanked a few years ago.  So if nobody is interested in that, then the prohibitive cost of a VR headset, with it's even more cumbersome interface isn't going to appeal to the casuals at all, which, like it or not, are the people you have to get on your side for a product to sell well enough to get some actual games made for it. 

If VR has any kind of future, it's an industrialized, public one like what Chad just mentioned.  To a theme park VR is actually inexpensive compared to the alternatives and while a end user might not be willing to fork over 600 bucks for a headset, the price of admission to a popular theme park, where there are other fun things to do, might be swayed via the novelty of a VR experience. 

Of course, like I've said previously, there is always the Nintendo factor.  Nintendo could design and sell a headset attachment for the switch for practically nothing and they might actually be willing to do a full fledged game of premium quality.  Judging by current sales everyone wants a switch anyway, so the added cost to the end user is practically nothing.  Unlike smart phones the games would probably be good, so that could jump start the genre. 

ChadTower

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2017, 01:26:21 pm »



The PS VR setup is $400 now if that helps.  That includes the required camera but not the essential Move controllers.  Some games, mostly the point/click style narrative games so far, really need those.  I will definitely pick up the PS VR equipment later in the system's lifespan when I eventually find a PS4 cheap at a yard sale.


Can you do basic things on the other headsets using it like a regular display?  I played through part of Battlefront recently on the PS VR headset.  It looks like a great big projected flat image.  I assume you could watch videos that way if you were so inclined.

pixel

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #165 on: May 04, 2017, 01:29:06 pm »
Stereoscopic 3D  has always been of interest to a lot of people.

 The problem has always been the fault of the people whom were behind the wheel.

 With PC 3d hardware:

 With the hardware being specific to certain graphics cards,  or certain video card drivers...  developers do not want to support it with software efforts.
 With over-pricing of the glasses - Especially in reguards to the low-tech nature of them,  in a time where the tech was already cheap as hell to produce.
 Poor software included (or none at all),  that was NOT a Must-Buy -  to hook people into the whole environment.  (such as how Super Mario Bros singlehandedly pushed sales of the NES thru the roof)

 The arguments for flicker,  as well as having to wear glasses,  have always been a way to shift the blame of the real reasons.


 With 3d Tv:

 - The 3d tech was not standardized

 - The 3d glasses were all over the map,  as far as quality, comfort,  different compatibility,   as well as too high of a cost.

 - The content was too expensive.  Movies priced at like 4 times the standard cost... was asking way too much.

 - Severely Limited Content.  Brodcasters did not have the tech, and were not going to invest millions for it.. when there was no massive base of users.
    And, even if you forget about prices... there was not a lot of 3d Releases worthy of watching / buying.  One great 3d re-release,  was Predator.  That should have been right out of the gate, and included with the TVs.   Heck, maybe something even more iconic... like T2, ROTJ,  Indiana Jones,  etc...

 - Screen Sizes.  The 3d depth is limited, on a smaller screen.  Imax puts an object about 5 ft in front of your head... due to its Massive screen size... and how close you sit to it (vertical stadium seating)    For smaller LCDs,  you have to sit much closer,  and even then... its still far less of an experience.   Watch something on a decent 3d home projector however... and its just like the Imax experience.   Flippin amazing.

 - LCD issues.  LCDs have gotten better over time... but they still had a lot of lag issues.   This causes problems with timing on shutterglasses,  and image / depth quality + motion blur, and ghosting problems.   Then you have stupid frame-fillers,  that compound the issues... making unrealistic looking movements.  (uncanny valley effect)    Additionally, color depth lackings, field of view,  possible glare,   and ease of setup / use  issues...

 - DVD / Blueray  3d hardware support issue.   You could not just plug your existing blueray / DVD player into,  and use it to view 3d content.    They could have left this open to the hardware of the glasses and tv to take care of... as a last resort... so anyone could simply try it out as-is.    Instead,  they locked it down into a need for a specific new player.   Further turning people off, with more expenses... and little content to justify it.

- Time.   Mfgs are famous for pulling a plug way too early.  Expecting large gains, in quick timeframes.   Not allowing the people,  to eventually catch up to the tech... and the base then generating a lot more sales in the future.     They shifted focus to HDR and 4k.   Both are great and desired options.   But,  3d  HDR + 4K... would be even better...


 One thing VR can do,  is potentially open up 3d movie conversions and sales...  as they could be great personal viewing devices.   The issue however,  is the format.  It needs wide, and non distorted FOV...  as well as a higher resolution.    A single wide display,  with flickering eye lens lcds,  would be Heaps better than the method used now...  at least, for movies and general pc type use.  **   Or use of two displays mounted on the sides,  with a periscope like mirror setup to reduce space + give wide and full HD resolutions.


 Turns out that many of the entertainers of the early years,  actually had things like DVD music, with interactive content... ages ago.   It did not catch on... but why?
It was released too early,  where more CD drives were a commonality.   Poor to Zero advertising.   And, again,  did not wait long enough.   DVD Audio,  should be the standard.
Cds are antiques,  providing far more limited audio quality and reproduction... let alone limited size and durability.   And yet,  CDs are still the physical media of sale, for audio.  It boggles the mind.


 VR will get big eventually.    But it might die again,  if the mfgs.  do not get their acts together.   Cost are too high.  and nothing I see out there screams "I cant live without this in my life"  yet...


 As to note...  Ive used / seen  Stereoscopic 3d on:

 - The Sega Master System  (Missile Defense 3d,  is da bomb!   Worthy of picking up the hardware, just for this game)
 - PC hardware around the 90s era
 - Got to see / use some later pc hardware revisions at friends house
 - Watched movies at a friends affordable 3d home projector,  about 2 yrs ago... that blew me away  (as good as the Imax experience)
 - A used Virtuaboy   heh
 - And in the 80s  arcades, on  Continental Circus.   (That is an Awesome 3d experience!  Tires, car wreckage parts, and smoke trails... flying out of the screen! )

  and some other lesser devices not worthy of mention...


 I am very curious to see what Jerry's CastAR will do...
 And Id love to see one of the current VR devices  (my phone is barely able to power the most mildest of VR play. GN2)

05SRT4

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #166 on: May 04, 2017, 01:41:24 pm »
Can you do basic things on the other headsets using it like a regular display?  I played through part of Battlefront recently on the PS VR headset.  It looks like a great big projected flat image.  I assume you could watch videos that way if you were so inclined.

Yes there are a bunch of apps that allow you to use the headset as a main display.
You can actually stream your PS4 through the headsets, kind of cool.

The PSVR display actually works with the WiiU and Xbox1 if your just using the display.

ChadTower

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #167 on: May 04, 2017, 01:47:30 pm »



Oh man, if Nintendo ever got into that, Mario Kart VR would be the killer app Howard is waiting on.


RandyT

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #168 on: May 04, 2017, 01:47:41 pm »
There are many similarities between 3DTV and VR.  The obvious 3D effects both deliver, aside.

1) Higher cost, which delivers a new experience at the expense of usually lower visual quality.  It can take twice as much horsepower and twice the resolution to deliver the effect well, and costs are associated with this.
 Consumers generally tend not to be thrilled with this trade-off.

2) Limited and/or poorly done content.  Some things are enhanced by, and translate well to VR, and other things not so much, with the former being much smaller in quantity than the latter.  While it might sound cool to play a "twitch" FPS in VR, the concept is not going to translate very well.  And making games with VR features just because they can, with no real benefit to the gamer, will not help to sell the concept.

3) Required isolation associated with the experience.  In one form or another, each limits the ability to interact with the user's surroundings and freely move from one activity to another.  VR takes the 3DTV problem and increases it exponentially.

4) Something I'll refer to as "industry flogging".  When a technology reaches a point to where there isn't much more they can do to keep sales moving, marketeers start throwing things at the wall until something sticks, or they feel that they can make the consumer believe that it has. Then, it's all the industry talks about.  It borrows a page from the "repeat the lie enough times and it becomes fact" principle.   3DTV fit this bill, as does VR, IMHO. 

I have tried VR with a high end cell phone (Snapdragon 820 based w/ a large 2k screen, and more sensors than I can remember) and mid-range headset holder.  The experiences ranged from ridiculous and ineffective, to immersive and mildly heart-pounding.  The latter being the demo of massive great-white sharks swimming around you.  But aside from that one experience, and I sampled much of what was readily available, I didn't feel like donning the gear was worth what was eventually delivered for the effort.  Aside from that first 3-hour exploratory, I haven't used it since.

At some point, the "killer app" may eventually come along which will be worth the cash extraction, but I don't see it yet.  IMHO, it's going to need much better technology, at a much lower price point for it to gain real traction in the marketplace.  And Howard, even the almighty Nintendo won't be able to change that.  :lol

Titchgamer

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #169 on: May 04, 2017, 02:09:55 pm »
Hmmm Mario Kart VR, I would freaking love that!

mimic

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #170 on: May 04, 2017, 02:11:07 pm »
By now pretty much all of you nay-sayers have admitted you don't own the "real thing", real thing being of course Oculus rift and HTC Vive. You talking about "killer-app" like you have any idea what killer-app for VR is. I am here to tell you after playing with my Rift, just about EVERY game I tried IS a killer app! People just don't realize that even the dinkiest games is WOW! in VR.
Have you tried:
Robo Recall
Superhot VR
Arizona Sunshine
Various Rollecoasters
The Climb
Batman VR
I expect you to die
list goes on and on!
Even dinkiest game like Fruit Ninja or any of the wave shooters like VR Invaders 2.0 or Zombie Buster or Princess Kidnapper 1&2  is fantastic in VR. All those games have one problem in common, they're too short, but they ALL are WOW!! People like yourself simply either didn't have a chance to play it or simply are  unaware of what VR really is. There might never be a rush to buy VR for Christmas for little Timmy, simply because it's so expensive and general low awareness of what VR really is, but it's not going away like 3D TV.
Now go buy it and MARVEL!

pbj

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #171 on: May 04, 2017, 02:15:16 pm »
Didn't Nintendo supposedly file a bunch of VR related ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- for the Switch already?  Like augmented reality or something?

Nobody cares about your hot takes on Arcade1Up cabinets.

ChadTower

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #172 on: May 04, 2017, 02:17:31 pm »



I finished Batman VR.  It was very cool but I wouldn't buy a PS4 + VR for it.  The whole game was maybe an hour long.  It's basically a PC style point and click adventure with some VR aspects (grabbing/throwing objects, manipulation with the Move controllers).  The environment is extremely immersive, though, as is the sound.


I keep requesting the location get Resident Evil 7.  That could turn out to be a real killer app. 



RandyT

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #173 on: May 04, 2017, 03:22:11 pm »
By now pretty much all of you nay-sayers have admitted you don't own the "real thing", real thing being of course Oculus rift and HTC Vive. You talking about "killer-app" like you have any idea what killer-app for VR is. I am here to tell you after playing with my Rift, just about EVERY game I tried IS a killer app! People just don't realize that even the dinkiest games is WOW! in VR.
Have you tried:

I respect your opinion.  But you demonstrate another similarity between 3DTV and VR, and that is that fervent supporters simply are unable to understand, or even believe, that there are those not enamored by the technology.  Supporters of both are usually those who have made significant investments in the high end of the tech, and feel that those who don't feel the way they do, haven't experienced it "on a setup like mine", or are coming from a standpoint of "sour grapes" because they can't afford it.

I assure you that in most cases, these assertions don't hold water.  The lower-end provides a "taste" of what is possible.  Either one likes it and craves a more advanced experience, or they think "Meh, kinda cool, but not for me."   Much like the home arcade machine enthusiast (we know who we are ;)), VR enthusiasts are (currently) a niche crowd.  The majority is still looking at it from a cost/benefit/usability standpoint, and it's a tough haul through that filter.  Enthusiasts will endure the shortcomings, whatever they may be.  The mass market, however, tends not to, and unless those shortcomings are somehow made far more palatable, the road ahead is pretty rocky for the tech.

mimic

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #174 on: May 04, 2017, 03:58:19 pm »

 The lower-end provides a "taste" of what is possible.  Either one likes it and craves a more advanced experience, or they think "Meh, kinda cool, but not for me."   Much like the home arcade machine enthusiast (we know who we are ;)), VR enthusiasts are (currently) a niche crowd.  The majority is still looking at it from a cost/benefit/usability standpoint, and it's a tough haul through that filter.  Enthusiasts will endure the shortcomings, whatever they may be.  The mass market, however, tends not to, and unless those shortcomings are somehow made far more palatable, the road ahead is pretty rocky for the tech.

I'm sorry I have to disagree here. I had a 3D monitor for the longest time now and I can't remember the last time I switched to 3D to play a game on it (pretty much any game that is FPS), so when I purchased Oculus Rift I thought I had an idea what to expect, but what I experienced instead exceeded all my expectations! To have 2 virtual hands and being able to manipulate objects or hold objects is nothing like just looking at something, which you have experienced so far.  When I play games like mentioned above Princess Kidnapper and I get that haptic feedback in my hand plus the sound of the bow being pulled in my ears, I start to believe that I am really holding something in my hands other than 2 controllers!
It's like saying I know how it feels to drive a Lamborghini, simply because I drove Yugo. And by driving Lamborghini I mean the whole experience of (stereotypical) women throwing themselves at you, everyone wants to be friends with you plus of course being able to drive without speed limits.
So unless you give it solid at least 1 hour, with the REAL THING, the whole shebang (controllers + room scale), I'm sorry I cannot trust your opinion nor opinion of anyone formed simply on experience with phone VR.
I'm sorry return when you tried that.


mimic

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #175 on: May 04, 2017, 04:09:11 pm »



I finished Batman VR.  It was very cool but I wouldn't buy a PS4 + VR for it.  The whole game was maybe an hour long.  It's basically a PC style point and click adventure with some VR aspects (grabbing/throwing objects, manipulation with the Move controllers).  The environment is extremely immersive, though, as is the sound.


I keep requesting the location get Resident Evil 7.  That could turn out to be a real killer app.

That's my point exactly. Batman VR in itself IS a killer app, it just too damn SHORT! Once developers will start to make longer games (which of course is based on amount of units sold, which in itself catch 22) and improve flaws like tethered units and better resolution + wider FOV, VR will only get bigger audience, it's not gonna shrink like 3DTVs. It has enough traction as is.

ChadTower

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #176 on: May 04, 2017, 04:17:14 pm »



Well, here's the thing, though... it's only $20.  That's not so bad for this game.  There would have to be a LOT of games like this but I feel that's a fair price for the game. 

Titchgamer

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #177 on: May 04, 2017, 04:27:02 pm »
Phone VR and PSVR are not really comparable.
I have not been fortunate enough to play with a rift etc so cant compare to them.

But a phone experience is never going to compare to "real" experience.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #178 on: May 04, 2017, 04:46:55 pm »
Quick question for you VR-ists (I have yet to try anything more than Occulus Dev version 1, years ago) : What is it like when the worlds are abstract and non-real? Is it like the uncanny valley for human CGI, or is it "wow, I'm inside art!" type of thing?

I've never really had any sort of "uncanny valley" experience in VR.  It's possible to have a disconnect between the real world and the VR world when things don't quite line up, but in general VR is quite convincing even in the more abstract or cartoony games.

pbj

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #179 on: May 04, 2017, 04:53:50 pm »
Any good interactive porn yet? 
Nobody cares about your hot takes on Arcade1Up cabinets.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #180 on: May 04, 2017, 04:57:49 pm »
I've said this a million times on this forum but some of you need to pick out your ears.  Optional gaming accessories do not sell well... this isn't opinion, it's fact.  Go back the entire history of console and pc gaming and you'll find this.  The few exceptions to this rule are accessories that fix a defect in the standard equipment, like the 6 button genesis pad or the wii's nunchuck accessory and even then they get a mere fraction of the support  of the default stuff. 

But has there been anything as compelling as VR?  Not really.

What people have been desiring since the beginning of gaming is being inside the game.  This is what a lot of gaming technology has been pushing for decades; bigger and sharper screens, more immersive audio, various peripherals to increase immersion.  Nothing else has really succeeded at this and that's where modern VR comes in.  Yes, there are still barriers to entry and the technology has a lot of room to improve.  But even current gen VR creates an experience you can't otherwise get from a monitor.  For the first time, we get to feel like we're inside a video game.

Quote
I mean you can look at the VR units like a monitor, but even then it looks like they aren't going to sell, thus my comparison to 3d tvs.  A 3d gaming monitor is a lot cheaper than a headset and the glasses are far less cumbersome and you would get a rudimentary 3d effect... yet no one is interested.... 3d monitor/tv sales tanked a few years ago.  So if nobody is interested in that, then the prohibitive cost of a VR headset, with it's even more cumbersome interface isn't going to appeal to the casuals at all, which, like it or not, are the people you have to get on your side for a product to sell well enough to get some actual games made for it.

You can't look at VR like a monitor.  The actual technology (including tracking and motion control) is far beyond a mere display screen.  This is something people not really familiar with the tech probably can't appreciate, hence the fallicious comparisons to things like 3DTVs.

The other issue with comparing to 3D TV's, which I brought up previously is that 3D TV's have largely gone through the complete cycle (early adoption, mainstreaming and then fading out).  VR is still well in the early adoption phase.  There are a lot of things that still need to happen for VR to gain traction: development of standards, improving hardware, making it more affordable, and creating more robust content.  Once we get through those stages we'll have a better idea of VR's long-term viability.

Quote
If VR has any kind of future, it's an industrialized, public one like what Chad just mentioned. 

This is funny to me because you sound almost exactly like this prediction about the failure of laptops catching on with the mainstream:

Quote
Sales representatives, service managers, field auditors of all varieties have not been adequately served by the computer industry in pushing laptop computers. As the technology of these machines, particularly of their displays, improves, and as their price declines, a lot of briefcase computers will probably be sold. And as the software that is capable of turning them into true satellite offices becomes refined, they will probably even be used - in fact, profitably so.

But the real future of the laptop computer will remain in the specialized niche markets.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html

« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:23:05 pm by shponglefan »

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #181 on: May 04, 2017, 05:09:26 pm »
While it might sound cool to play a "twitch" FPS in VR, the concept is not going to translate very well.

Yes it does.  I speak from experience with this playing the VR ports of the Serious Sam games and Doom 3, for example.

Now there are considerations when either porting or designing a game for VR particularly around interface/HUD, controls and locomotion.  But with those considerations in mind, every single mainstream game genre can translate into VR.  Playing a game like Serious Sam or Doom 3 in VR is a whole different experience when you're inside the game, physically aiming and fighting life-sized enemies.

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3) Required isolation associated with the experience.  In one form or another, each limits the ability to interact with the user's surroundings and freely move from one activity to another.

In my experience demoing VR for friends 'n family, the isolation isn't too much of a big deal.  For one, experiences are typically mirrored on a monitor or TV so that people can see what the person is experiencing as well as watching their physical reactions.  And quite honestly, that can be entertaining in its own right.

There are also a growing crop of asymmetric multiplayer VR games where one person is in VR while other players can interact via the traditional keyboard/mouse/monitor.

And finally, a lot of gaming is isolating in its own right.  VR isn't that much different than plopping down in front of a computer with a headset and playing CoD for 3 straight hours.

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I have tried VR with a high end cell phone (Snapdragon 820 based w/ a large 2k screen, and more sensors than I can remember) and mid-range headset holder.  The experiences ranged from ridiculous and ineffective, to immersive and mildly heart-pounding.  The latter being the demo of massive great-white sharks swimming around you.  But aside from that one experience, and I sampled much of what was readily available, I didn't feel like donning the gear was worth what was eventually delivered for the effort.  Aside from that first 3-hour exploratory, I haven't used it since.

Cell phone VR is quite frankly, kind of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and the most gimmicky of VR.  Proper gaming VR (i.e. Rift/Vive) with room-scale + motion controls is a whole different experience.  I believe an earlier poster had an apt comparison that basing one's opinion on cellphone VR is like basing one's opinion on cars by driving a PowerWheels.

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At some point, the "killer app" may eventually come along which will be worth the cash extraction, but I don't see it yet.  IMHO, it's going to need much better technology, at a much lower price point for it to gain real traction in the marketplace.

Not even just technology or price, but I think the most important thing VR lacks right now is good standards (APIs, hardware).  Right now the market as nascent as it is, is quite fragmented.  It's going to take time for standards to emerge followed by price drops, technology improvements and better content.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #182 on: May 04, 2017, 05:21:35 pm »
The lower-end provides a "taste" of what is possible.  Either one likes it and craves a more advanced experience, or they think "Meh, kinda cool, but not for me."

I wonder if cell phone VR is actually hurting the public perception of VR.  Cell phone VR is where I'd agree with the skeptical views of VR; it is rather gimmicky in my experience and not particularly useful.  But it's a world of difference compared to gaming VR w/ motion controllers.  It's also incredibly difficult to understand what one is missing until one actually tries the latter.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:30:33 pm by shponglefan »

pbj

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #183 on: May 04, 2017, 05:22:30 pm »
An amusing article, but some quick glances around Google reveal laptops didn't overtake desktops until about 10 years ago, so I'd say their pessimism wasn't completely untrue.

Tablets are going to kill them both right about... now.... and nobody saw that coming.

Nobody cares about your hot takes on Arcade1Up cabinets.

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #184 on: May 04, 2017, 05:40:51 pm »
Phone VR and PSVR are not really comparable.

True.  My phone has a higher resolution display :)  Even that I found to be lacking for a full sense of immersion.

Mimic, you really are making my point.  A quick perusal of the AV forums will show a ton of posts by the people who loved (and still do) the 3DTV technology.  When confronted by those who thought it was cool, but not at the level of quality/support/ease of use to make them want to take the plunge, the retort is almost always "you really need to check out (pick a title) on my new (pick a display)". 

And to "jump the shark" even further where comparisons are concerned, do you eat much kobe beef?  Why not?  Is it the cost?  The need to dress up in a suit and tie to get into the fancy restaurants which serve it?  Is it difficult to come by?  Does regular high quality beef do it for you?  Well, it could be said that you don't know what you are missing if you think regular ol' quality meat is fine.  You just aren't willing to do those things mentioned above for the "experience" of eating it, and you are fooling yourself if you think a good tenderloin tastes anything at all like it.

Ok, you see where I'm going.  And for the record, no, I've never had kobe beef, but I have eaten a few cows in my lifetime.  I know what they taste like :). What I'm getting at is that for many, they will see VR as a step backward in gaming, due to the many factors with which it is currently afflicted.  4K gaming is still in it's infancy,and small dual-4k screens are really what is required to bring home the "reality" part of VR in the visuals department.   Driving dual high resolution displays takes a lot of power at this moment in time. Premium content is still in short supply.  And so-on.  And even more troubling is the fact that all of this expensive gear will very likely be woefully obsolete if, and it's a big if, these issues are able to be addressed significantly enough for mass market adoption.

I don't blame anyone for being an early adopter of tech.  To be able to play with something which never existed before is often worth the cost of admission.  But those who weren't on the edge of their seat waiting for it, don't miss not having it.  The VR industry has to do something to make those people believe they're missing something amazing, and then deliver big time when those folks finally jump on-board.  I just think it's too early for the industry to be able to provide such a compelling reason, and it may take a decade before it can.

I wonder if cell phone VR is actually hurting the public perception of VR.  Cell phone VR is where I'd agree with the skeptical views of VR; it is rather gimmicky in my experience and not particularly useful.  But it's a world of difference compared to gaming VR w/ motion controllers; it's also incredibly difficult to understand what one is missing until one actually tries the latter.

I'm not sure myself.  In one sense, it can do a very good job of demonstrating the "feeling" of being someplace you are actually not.  Many people have used motion controllers of some nature as well, and marrying the two in one's mind can give a general idea of what to expect (albeit at a different level of quality.)  But the thing aficionados have a hard time with is that VR is a paradigm shift in a pastime which traditionally has much lower requirements upon it's users.  The cell phone VR units demonstrate some of this pretty clearly.  If the user can't get past strapping something to their head, and completely isolating themselves from the outside world, they will never go further, as even the expensive gear requires this sacrifice.  For those individuals to to do this, again, the reasons must be extremely compelling.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:43:18 pm by RandyT »

mimic

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #185 on: May 04, 2017, 06:28:31 pm »
@RandyT
Look, we can argue about all sorts of details ad-nauseam and in the end comes down to one thing. Do you consider yourself a TRUE gamer, because if you are, then you  will trust us and at the very least you (and other nay-sayers) TRY the damn thing (not just speculate), and if not, then maybe you're on these forums more into just building arcades just for fun of building arcades, like many here stated. Then that makes more sense, that you're just NOT interested in the gaming aspect of VR or gaming in general. 
I may not be young, but in my heart, I am hard-core gamer and always have been one (I'm not saying that's something to be proud of or trying to make myself someone special. I am just the target group of such equipment). And equipment like this, is more aimed at the same crowd that is willing to plonk $1000 plus on the latest hardware, just so they can have the best experience. And people are spending insane amount of money on hardware like latest video cards, companies like NVidia or AMD are not going anywhere anytime soon and same will be for VR manufacturers.

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #186 on: May 04, 2017, 08:12:27 pm »
There is no Kobe beef in America.  If you were told otherwise, you were lied to and ripped off.

And, in my day, ultra high fat content beef was "prison grade."

 :angry:

Nobody cares about your hot takes on Arcade1Up cabinets.

Mike A

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #187 on: May 04, 2017, 08:39:31 pm »
VR makes me sick to my stomach within 5 minutes of play. You can keep your vomit machines. Now please try to argue with me and tell me I just haven't had the premium vomit experience yet. ::)

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #188 on: May 04, 2017, 08:41:19 pm »
VR\AR is at the laser disk stage of optical media right now. Some think its cool and changes the game, other thinks it is bulky expensive and to many shot coming to change anything; but in time it will get to the CD\DVD stage and everyone will have it.

Mike A

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #189 on: May 04, 2017, 08:45:37 pm »
Or it will stay at the laserdisc stage and end up in the dumpster. The market will determine success or failure. The quality of the experience means nothing if big corporations decide they can't make enough money from it.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #190 on: May 04, 2017, 08:50:26 pm »
I'm not sure myself.  In one sense, it can do a very good job of demonstrating the "feeling" of being someplace you are actually not.  Many people have used motion controllers of some nature as well, and marrying the two in one's mind can give a general idea of what to expect (albeit at a different level of quality.)

In my experience, the best immersion is achieved with a combination of a headset (stereoscopic vision + head tracking), room-scale, and motion controllers.  It's one thing to be looking around in VR space, but when you physically start moving around and interacting with the VR world, it's when everything 'clicks' and you feel like you're truly there.

This is why when people talk about trying cell phone VR, my first instinct is to roll my eyes; in my view it really is a bastardized experience of what VR is like.  And I'll be honest, I didn't think room-scale and motion controllers would matter at first, but once trying them it accounts for at least 50% of the experience.

The other problem with cell phone VR is we're talking about devices not really designed for it.  The result is immediate compromises for things like refresh rates or tracking latency.

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But the thing aficionados have a hard time with is that VR is a paradigm shift in a pastime which traditionally has much lower requirements upon it's users.  The cell phone VR units demonstrate some of this pretty clearly.  If the user can't get past strapping something to their head, and completely isolating themselves from the outside world, they will never go further, as even the expensive gear requires this sacrifice.  For those individuals to to do this, again, the reasons must be extremely compelling.

In my view the experiences are compelling.  I've shown off the Vive to a number of friends and family and everyone has been blown away by it.  This even includes my 70 yo technophobic mother who was initially opposed to the very idea of VR.  But once I put her in it and in particular a lot of the space experiences, she thought it was the neatest thing ever and has used it on multiple occasions now.

What I find in talking to people is that barrier to entry isn't VR itself.  It's everything else around the current state of VR.  This includes market fragmentation and competing standards (i.e. people afraid of backing the 'wrong' system), price, system requirements and content.  And in the latter case especially, it's bloody hard to market VR content to non-VR users.  Experiences that may seem like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on a monitor can be extremely compelling in VR.  Vise-versa, gaming on a regular monitor that people think they want in VR may not be as ideal.  But without knowing what VR is like, it's almost impossible to appreciate what makes for good VR content.

In the long run, I think we'll get there.  I'm convinced that VR is the future of gaming.  But it likely won't be until another generation or two of VR headsets before it starts having more mainstream appeal and the barrier to entry come down.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #191 on: May 04, 2017, 08:54:22 pm »
VR makes me sick to my stomach within 5 minutes of play. You can keep your vomit machines. Now please try to argue with me and tell me I just haven't had the premium vomit experience yet. ::)

Well, what have you actually tried?  Nausea in VR is usually a result of artificial locomotion, too low refresh rate and/or too high latency.  A combination of any of those can quickly lead to a bad time.

On the other hand, 90+ Hz refresh rates, <20ms latency and no artificial locomotion and you shouldn't feel nauseous.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #192 on: May 04, 2017, 09:06:24 pm »
Btw, I've noticed that in general it seems when people post about having a bad experience with VR, there seems to be a reluctance to explain what they've actually used.  I've seen this a number of times now in various forums.

OTOH, when people have a good experience, usually it's much more specific.

Mike A

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #193 on: May 04, 2017, 09:09:45 pm »
It has nothing to do with any of that technical babble. It is motion sickness plain and simple. The better it simulates real life the worse it gets.

Mike A

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #194 on: May 04, 2017, 09:12:50 pm »
Oculus DK2, Playstation, Cardboard cell phone, Vive, Oculus consumer, Amusement park VR. Is that specific enough? I am not trying to covertly subvert your VR utopia. It is not a conspiracy. It makes me ill. If you like it that is fantastic. It looks like a lot of fun.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #195 on: May 04, 2017, 09:18:14 pm »
It has nothing to do with any of that technical babble. It is motion sickness plain and simple. The better it simulates real life the worse it gets.

Color me skeptical, but if you tried a VR experience with no artificial motion, how could it be motion sickness?  That why I'm asking what specifically you've really tried (i.e. which headset, what software).  The Vive tracking for example is basically 1:1 so any real world motion should match VR motion.  That's why it doesn't typically cause people nausea, unless there is something else involved like artificial motion or possibly tracking glitches.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 09:22:36 pm by shponglefan »

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #196 on: May 04, 2017, 09:25:38 pm »
Oculus DK2, Playstation, Cardboard cell phone, Vive, Oculus consumer, Amusement park VR. Is that specific enough?

I'd be more interested in the software side.  There's a big difference between playing something with no artificial movement than something with a lot of artificial movement.

I generally don't get queasy in VR, but even I've run into a few games with artificial motion (particularly rotation) that can make me dizzy or give me a headache.

pbj

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #197 on: May 04, 2017, 10:19:18 pm »
So I feel like I've swung at this piņata enough, but here's one more and I pray I'm done.

This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

Nobody cares about your hot takes on Arcade1Up cabinets.

shponglefan

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #198 on: May 04, 2017, 10:33:27 pm »
This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

It doesn't entirely surprise me, though.  There's seems to be a bit of "hype fatigue" when it comes to VR.  Partially from the hype back in the 1990's for those of us who remember.  And partially from the hype around other so-called revolutionary technologies like 3DTV, the Wii, Kinect, etc.  Hence, it's common to see references to those when

Plus there's the simple fact that most people haven't tried it.  And no, cell phone VR doesn't count.  Unless one tries a proper gaming VR setup, it's really hard to appreciate what VR is truly capable of and how awesome it can be.

For me, the proof of VR's viability as an experience is just based on the demos I've given to various friends and family.  Everyone from young to old, gamers, non-gamers, and VR skeptics have thoroughly enjoyed it.  In fact, I find those most skeptical of VR tend to be the most blown away by the experience.  At which point the barriers to entry become everything else around VR, particularly the current high-priced hardware and fragmented market.  But I have no doubt that if some of those issues get sorted and the hardware improves and becomes more affordable, VR will eventually reach the mainstream.  It's just going to be a matter of time.

fallacy

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Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2017, 10:49:29 pm »
Quote
So I feel like I've swung at this piņata enough, but here's one more and I pray I'm done.

This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

Do you own a smart phone? If not nothing more needs to be said from you.

  
 

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