Will blacklights harm my CP or plexi?

[1UP]

I am currently in the process of adding blacklights to my Tron-themed control panel, but have run into a problem.  I had bought a set of 12" UV cold cathode "neon" case lights at my local Fry's, which actually work really well without being too bright.  When I tried to light my CP with them, I found that they had almost no effect, though the artwork on my spinner glowed brightly from them.

I first thought that maybe I had saturated the color too much in the print, so it was blocking too much of the paper.  The printing was done on Kinko's oversized inkjet, with normal printing inks (not fluorescents), so the only thing that really should glow is the white of the paper anyway...

Anyway, I noticed that the razor-thin edges of the artwork that protruded above the top of the Lexan glowed brilliantly!  So I took off the Lexan and sure enough it lit up like Christmas.  I guess the Lexan has some kind of UV coating...  

Anyone know what types of material are coated and what are not?  Plexi?  Lexan?  Lucite?  Is there a way I could easily remove the coating?

[bluGill]

Real glass. Lexan is damaged by UV light.  Lexan without that coating won't last more than a couple years in sunlight.  I don't know how your UV light changes things, but I wouldn't right it.   Any plastic is damaged by UV, for your application get real glass, tempered glass is unlikely enough to break if that is a worry.

[Xiaou2]

 
 i just got a black knight 2000 pin recently... and it also had this damage on most of the plastics as you spoke of.

 it turned them a dirty yellowish color.

 no scapeing, scrubbing, buffing..ect will help.  i guess its like a chemical change or something.

[1UP]

What about the blacklights on Tron cabs?  What is the clear cover on those lights made of?  BTW, if blacklights (not true UV light) cause the same clouding, wouldn't the plastic tubes that the caselight is mounted in eventually go yellow?  Do I have to worry about my blacklight damaging anything else on my cab?

I'm really wary of using any kind of glass on the control panels, as they are bound to get pounded on from time to time...

[RandyT]

Here's a (probably) little known fact I learned while working in the optics industry:

Just about ANY kind of plastic is a very poor transmitter of UV.  I always get a chuckle out of the little "Blocks 100% UV" sticker on cheap sunglasses with plastic lenses, as it is a default characteristic.

Glass will probably be the only way to go to do what you want.

Also, be aware that the extra UV probably won't do your inkjet prints any good in the long run either, but that may depend on the frequency of the light.

RandyT

[patrickl]

Blacklight also contains "true UV" light. You can use them to wipe eproms or etch electronic circuits.

[1UP]

Here's a (probably) little known fact I learned while working in the optics industry:

Just about ANY kind of plastic is a very poor transmitter of UV.  I always get a chuckle out of the little "Blocks 100% UV" sticker on cheap sunglasses with plastic lenses, as it is a default characteristic.

Glass will probably be the only way to go to do what you want.

Also, be aware that the extra UV probably won't do your inkjet prints any good in the long run either, but that may depend on the frequency of the light.

RandyT

I did some tests with CD case lids, and they didn't seem to block the blacklight at all.  On the other hand, the lexan actually cast a dark shadow as if almost opaque.

What I will probably do is get a large b/w laser print of my artwork in pure black and white, hand color in the "neon lines" with some flourescent markers, then laminate the whole thing and cement it on top of my original lexan.  If it ever fades or the lamination wears thru, it's fairly cheap to replace that way.

BTW, I remember back when UV protection on sunglasses was starting to be a big thing, they actually showed them on the news measuring the amount of UV coming thru various brands of sunglasses.  So I'm assuming that plastic lenses aren't absolutely 100% opaque to UV by default.  Even my lexan lets *some* UV thru, and you said yourself that plastics are a "poor transmitter" of UV, not a non transmitter.  Remember, there are UV LEDs that are made of some type of plastic, no?  And then there are the plastic tubes that my blacklights are encased in, they don't seem to have much trouble transmitting.  Just my Lexan...  

[Ken Layton]

Lexan usually has a UV inhibitor coating, but ALL plastics will be damage eventually by UV light whether naturally occuring or from blacklights or fluorescent lights. The plastics will yellow and get very brittle.

[eightbit]

Have you tried laminating your artwork? I had some stuff laminated cheap at a local printer and I think it would hold up very well on a control panel and I doubt if it would block your uv light. I had 2 of these laminated for $5, it was about 18 x 24 or so.

[1UP]

Lexan usually has a UV inhibitor coating, but ALL plastics will be damage eventually by UV light whether naturally occuring or from blacklights or fluorescent lights. The plastics will yellow and get very brittle.

Hmm...I'd be interested to hear from some folks that own Tron/DOT machines, especially those who have had them a long time.  Did the clear bezel that covered the blacklight ever deteriorate?  Also, am I at risk for cataracts or other health effects by being exposed to these lights for too long?

Keep in mind that these aren't super bright fluorescent blacklights, they're just PC case lights.  The insides look something like very rigid sections of glowire. Not bright at all, but bright enough to light up a CP nicely...

BTW eightbit, that is some bitchin sideart!  I need something like that....

[Ken Layton]

I've converted several Trons over the years and the plastics were all faded & cracked. I used generic control panel overlays to cover/hold together the plastics.

[grafixmonkey]

Still though, this is a process that takes many years to show up right?  If you're building this now (as opposed to restoring a classic cab with original parts), does it matter if it starts to kind-of need some replacement plastics fifteen years down the road to look perfect again?

BTW I tested a black light with a chunk of glass from a broken table top a while back, and it seemed to block all of the UV too.  At least, nothing behind the glass would glow.  (that doesn't mean a different band of UV light that doesn't fluoresce things wasn't making it through.)  

I think glass also blocks infrared light, which I think is funny considering all the big expensive stereo / VCR / DVD shelves people buy that have glass doors, just to have to leave the doors open all the time to run the equipment.

[Ken Layton]

Some of the games I converted were only 2 or 3 years old. The plastics were already shot.

[RandyT]

I did some tests with CD case lids, and they didn't seem to block the blacklight at all.  On the other hand, the lexan actually cast a dark shadow as if almost opaque.

The human eye is also a very poor tool to measure "brightness".  A constantly varying aperture and a compensating brain doesn't make for a very good standard.  

While the Lexan transmits little relative to the GPPS (General Purpose PolyStyrene), the GPPS probably isn't letting as much of the UV through as you might think.

BTW, I remember back when UV protection on sunglasses was starting to be a big thing, they actually showed them on the news measuring the amount of UV coming thru various brands of sunglasses.  So I'm assuming that plastic lenses aren't absolutely 100% opaque to UV by default.  Even my lexan lets *some* UV thru, and you said yourself that plastics are a "poor transmitter" of UV, not a non transmitter.  Remember, there are UV LEDs that are made of some type of plastic, no?  And then there are the plastic tubes that my blacklights are encased in, they don't seem to have much trouble transmitting.  Just my Lexan...  

I guess I should have said 99%.  The dark tint absorbs some of it as well.  

BTW, Black lights don't put out a lot of true UV compared to real UV light sources.  Black lights operate at the edge of the visible spectrum, which is why they look purple .  True UV is invisible to the human eye.

As for the LEDs, I suspect that the plastic dome presents a bit of a problem.  But these are probably similar to Black lights anyway, so probably not much of an issue.

And finally, the thickness of the material will also play a part.  A very thin piece of plastic will block less than a thick piece.  FWIW.

RandyT


 

[RandyT]

BTW I tested a black light with a chunk of glass from a broken table top a while back, and it seemed to block all of the UV too.  At least, nothing behind the glass would glow.  (that doesn't mean a different band of UV light that doesn't fluoresce things wasn't making it through.)  

I think glass also blocks infrared light, which I think is funny considering all the big expensive stereo / VCR / DVD shelves people buy that have glass doors, just to have to leave the doors open all the time to run the equipment.

Soda Lime float glass (window glass) is floated (thus the name) out onto a pool of molten tin.  Some of this tin invariably adheres to the lower surface of the glass.  This tin will block the UV (ok, not ALL of it, but a good percentage.)  The green color is caused by the iron content in the glass.  This will also absorb some of the UV.

Glass that is ground and polished on both sides or produced by a different method will most likely give better results.

RandyT

[grafixmonkey]

I just had to say that that was some really cool info...  thanks randyT!  I'd never heard that about glass before.

With LEDs, they have the flexibility of choosing a material for the package that is transparent to UV, because the material doesn't need to have any other specific qualities.  (i.e. doesn't need to hold X # of pounds in the middle of a flat sheet, doesn't need to be transparent to normal visible light...)

Ken Layton, I'm curious...   were these Tron games you restored ever out in the sun for any length of time?  I'm wondering, because there were Tron machines in a couple of local arcades for a long time, and I don't remember anything on them ever being cracked or yellowed.  I never looked up into the corners and the hard to see areas, but the joystick, buttons, and plastic over the screen and stuff always looked good.  I also had a bunch of Legos set up in my basement that got quite a bit of UV light exposure because I nailed a fluorescent UV lamp to the ceiling over the Lego table.  They don't seem to have any damage from it, but their amount of exposure doesn't come anywhere close to 2-3 years of constant on-time either.  I'm curious, because I've frequently noticed the exact kind of yellowing and degradation you're talking about, but only on things that were left outside.  I've never seen the "black light damage" effect...  but again, I don't know anything that would have a black light on it for that length of time other than Tron machines.

[1UP]

I have seen yellowed fluorescent light covers only five years old that were always inside, but some others I have seen are much older but don't have as much yellowing.

Now I'm starting to wonder if my formica is at risk as well.  I really don't think that these things are that powerful at all, but I'd hate to trash my cab by a poor choice of lighting, even if it's years down the road...  

Hey, does this mean that all of us with lexan marquees are going to see yellowing due to the fluorescents inside?

[eightbit]

BTW eightbit, that is some bitchin sideart!  I need something like that....

That was the first try at it, I didn't like it laminated. I reprinted it bigger on better paper and clear coated it instead of laminating it. Then it turned out much better.

[grafixmonkey]

I have seen yellowed fluorescent light covers only five years old that were always inside, but some others I have seen are much older but don't have as much yellowing.

Now I'm starting to wonder if my formica is at risk as well.  I really don't think that these things are that powerful at all, but I'd hate to trash my cab by a poor choice of lighting, even if it's years down the road...  

Hey, does this mean that all of us with lexan marquees are going to see yellowing due to the fluorescents inside?

That's an interesting thought...   but I'd think the artwork would block most of the UV before it hit the lexan covering on the outside.  Of course, that means what happens to the artwork?  Unless you sandwich the artwork between two pieces of lexan.  But if the lexan on the inside yellows and becomes slightly opaque, I think it'd just very slightly change the hue of the colors.  Your eyes would adjust to the difference and you wouldn't notice unless you looked for it.

[Wienerdog]

The curved Tron cover over the light was 3/16" thick.  I see no yellowing in the clear areas, but the colors seem washed out.   Not sure about the life of the machine, I just have a few parts.

[Ken Layton]

I didn't restore the Trons----I converted them all to something else. I remember making a couple into Sky Sharks, another into 1942, another into an Arkanoid. Tron as a game sucks! My boss agreed and that's why he ordered all the Trons we had converted into anything else.

The Trons were moved from location to location. Some were street locations while some were taverns. They all had shot plastics.

[Wienerdog]

I didn't restore the Trons----I converted them all to something else. I remember making a couple into Sky Sharks, another into 1942, another into an Arkanoid. Tron as a game sucks! My boss agreed and that's why he ordered all the Trons we had converted into anything else.

The Trons were moved from location to location. Some were street locations while some were taverns. They all had shot plastics.

Ken, you are no longer welcome here.  You are dead to me. Goodbye.

[Chris]

I didn't restore the Trons----I converted them all to something else.

Everyone run for cover!  War's about to break out!  

[mushmouth]

Tron SUCKS?? Convert all Trons??

*twitch* ... *twitch* ... Ummm... *twitch* *Twitch*... Uhh....

*shudder*

Ken, you're dead to me too. Unless I need some good advice or something, then I'll let you back in my good graces. But when you're done helping me, you'll be dead to me again. Just for good measure.

Oh man. Your mother brought you up wrong...

*grin*

[grafixmonkey]

I didn't restore the Trons----I converted them all to something else.

AAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!    No!  No!  I refuse to believe it!

*sniff*   I think we need to have a memorial vigilant candle watch now or something...  

[1UP]

Well, now that I've recovered from the blackout I suffered after reading about the Tron conversions...I've decided that I'm going to just exchange the blacklights for neon blue or violet lights.  They won't make anything glow, but they'll light up the panel, which was printed with a glowing effect.  And the Lexan won't block them.

I did some reading up on blacklights, and while they're not supposed to cause any lasting health effects at low intensity, they can cause eye and skin irritation with prolonged exposure.  I started to notice my hands got irritated after messing around with the lights for a while, so I'm just going to forget them altogether.  Most sites with information about blacklights recommend wearing gloves and UV protective goggles around them.  I don't really think it would be fun wearing goggles every time I play my cab...  

[grafixmonkey]

I still think the blacklight thing is being taken far too seriously, but it's up to you.  

If I remember right, Tron and the other panels that had black light glowy things mostly just had plastic laminate artwork on the panel, right?  i.e. I don't remember any plexi or lexan covering those.  Another thing you could do is only put the glowy artwork on the inside panels of the box the monitor is in.  The Tron cabinet had lots of cool "Computer World" art on the panels around the screen, taken from the movie.  It gave it a fun look.  You could put stuff like that in there and not have the blacklight shine on the CP at all, so no lexan worries and no skin irritation.   (if you wanted to have black light artwork.)

[RandyT]

You guys should be really cool and use EL material for all the stuff that is supposed to glow.

You won't need the blacklight because it will be glowing on it's own .


RandyT

[Tailgunner]

Well at least they didn't sledghammer the cabs and toss them. I personally wouldn't go as far as saying "Tron Sux", but I don't remember sinking a ton of quarters in it back in the day.

Business is business folks, and I can't fault anybody in the biz for converting a cab to something that makes money.

[1UP]

I still think the blacklight thing is being taken far too seriously, but it's up to you.  

If I remember right, Tron and the other panels that had black light glowy things mostly just had plastic laminate artwork on the panel, right?  i.e. I don't remember any plexi or lexan covering those.  Another thing you could do is only put the glowy artwork on the inside panels of the box the monitor is in.  The Tron cabinet had lots of cool "Computer World" art on the panels around the screen, taken from the movie.  It gave it a fun look.  You could put stuff like that in there and not have the blacklight shine on the CP at all, so no lexan worries and no skin irritation.   (if you wanted to have black light artwork.)

I could do that, but my cab is not a "Tron only" theme.  I also have a Star Wars panel (which might still fit with a techie motif and vector-type artwork) but I also have a Pac-Man panel which might not fit with the look...I don't know, anything's possible at this stage since my bezel isn't made yet, but that could be a lot of work that I didn't really plan on doing...

[rdagger]

I know this is a little late...
but I was wondering if you considered using UV reactive acrylic for your panel.  It is very popular now for computer case mods.  It comes in many colors and glows when UV light is applied.  They also make a UV reactive paint.  Check out this computer case.

[1UP]

You'd still have the same problem with skin irritation. not worth it

[Stingray]

I personally wouldn't go as far as saying "Tron Sux", but I don't remember sinking a ton of quarters in it back in the day.

Man I did. I loved that game.

-S