ATOM-15 support ..

[JoeB]

I noticed there's no thread about this AMAZING tool, so I figured I'd start one.  More people should try it out!!  It really converts your ATI card to an almost perfect clone of an ArcadeVGA in terms of usability.

I flashed my ATI 4350 PCI-E card in Windows XM 64-bit and now the BIOS and Windows boot screen are in perfect 15khz rather than split screen (feeding through J-PAC which protects 31k going to the Arcade monitor by splitting the video).

I did notice 1 small "problem" and was wondering if there's a fix for it / if possible at all.

My arcade monitor is an MS9-29A.  This particular monitor has a frequency sensor that auto switches depending on what it detects (a loud click from relay is heard and monitor flashes).  It's also a sort of protection circuit.  If 31k is fed into the monitor (or no freq?) then a machine gun almost sound is heard and after 3-5 seconds the monitor shuts down.  One needs to keep the monitor off for >30 seconds, at which point a "click" is heard as the protection circuit resets and one can feed power to the monitor again.

The problem I have now is those very short moments between BIOS screen and Windows XP logo, and then no Windows XP logo and windows booting (ATI drivers took over) where the signal fed to the monitor is "out of range" (31K, no signal? not sure).  In both moments, the relay clicks on/off about 4-5 times quickly.. but not long enough for the protection circuit to kick in.

I did not have this problem before the BIOS (I don't believe) because the BIOS / Windows Logo were 31k and the JPAC was just doing its job feeding 15k the whole time.  The JPAC doesn't have enough time to react to the 31k moments (I spoke to Andy years ago, and he said the JPAC has a few second delay).

Is this a bug in ATOM-15? 

[cools]

Disable sync splitting on the jpac? 15k only.

[Calamity]

Hi JoeB,

I'm wondering what frequency ranges you ticked on ATOM-15. Did you by any chance tick the 15 & 25 kHz ranges?

[JoeB]

Disable sync splitting on the jpac? 15k only.

I don't believe you can do this.. and what's the point to disable it?? It's protecting my monitor from getting 31k.

[JoeB]

Hi JoeB,

I'm wondering what frequency ranges you ticked on ATOM-15. Did you by any chance tick the 15 & 25 kHz ranges?

I only had 15k checked (even though my monitor does support 15/25 .. I never use 25).

[ufoufo512]

As far as I remember, it is possible to force JPAC to only pass 15 KHz. I remember the splitting functionality is activated with jumpers in both 15 KHz and 31 KHz jumpers. Having jumper only in 15 KHz position will only allow 15 KHz to pass thru.

[JoeB]

I spoke to Andy about the JPAC a few years ago.. here's what was discussed:

Me

When the system posts, there's times when there's no sync from the PC (BIOS flash, switch from BIOS to windows, switch of resolution in windows).

During these moments, the SYNC OK light goes off, but the SYNC IN light stays on.  On one monitor, nothing happens.  On another monitor (again, even same chassis model number!) the monitor turns off.  On the 3rd turn off.. the monitor stays off.  I have to take power away from the monitor for 30 seconds, and then I hear a click (like a relay going off) and then I turn the monitor and all is well.

What can cause this? How can I fix it?  I find it silly that for this monitor I have to post windows first, and then turn on monitor.  Doesn't the JPAC insert 15khz fake signal/sync if none are found??

Andy:

During boot the resolution changes several times hence the blank and clicks etc. It seems the monitor has a problem not re-enabling after one of these changes.

Me:

Andy,

the clicking on/off only occurs when the JPAC SYNC OK light goes off.  During regular operations, windows changes resolutions multiple times (Depending on game) with no problem.. sync is on during all those times.

It's only during switch from BIOS to windows that this happens.  Doesn't the JPAC insert sync if none is found? Why is the SYNC OK light go out?

Andy:

The sync light goes out several times during boot because the resolution changes are being done by the BIOS which does not have the intelligence of the Windows drivers, and also the various boot resolutions can sometimes contain positive sync whereas all the Windows resolutions are negative sync. The Jpac does take a few seconds to start creating the dummy sync signals, it cant do it all the time, and it only ever creates negative sync. I would suspect the monitor is having a problem switching from positive sync to negative.
 
This situation varies with motherboards as well, different BIOSes use different boot resolutions, some use all text=only, some use a mix of text and graphics modes.
Andy

I have the 15khz only jumper installed.  Does the above help at all?  I don't think it's the JPAC.  The JPAC has no freq conversion ..

I think the problem is with ATOM-15 .. it changes frequencies (as Andy says above) but it does it in a different way than Windows drivers do.  This triggers the freq detection circuit on the monitor.  Most people won't notice this problem because they don't have an auto freq changing / sensing circuit on their monitors.  They just have forced 15k monitors that go wonky for a second with no crazy clicks.

[Calamity]

Hi JoeB,

If you just ticked the 15 kHz range, then a 15-16.2kHz output is all what you have. You can check your modded bios log to see the available modes. There's no 31 kHz-for-1-second kind of thing, sure. All sync polarities are negative. If you're having issues I bet you would have the same ones with an ArcadeVGA. You can plug a CRT PC monitor to check the outcoming frequencies on its osd.

Just to clarify, I do all my tests with an auto-switching chassis (Polostar) and while you can notice (hear and view) several freq changes during boot (post, Windows loading screen) they are all inside the selected ranges.

I'd say the 16.2 kHz frequency might be a problem for some chassis. This frequency is required to enable 800x600@50i, which is absolutely a must have. If your chassis is autoswitching (15->25) you might have better luck by only enabling the 25 kHz range. The resulting horizontal frequency for the various resolutions should be more stable in that case.

[JoeB]

If you just ticked the 15 kHz range, then a 15-16.2kHz output is all what you have.

I'd say the 16.2 kHz frequency might be a problem for some chassis. This frequency is required to enable 800x600@50i, which is absolutely a must have.

OK.  Let me try and understand this.  When the system starts up, the ROM/BIOS is used to generate the video to the screen.  This is now set  in the 15-16.2kHz range.  There seem to be the following "video mode switches" occurring during bootup:

1) Black screen -> BIOS POST screen (RAM counter)
2) BIOS POST -> Windows XP Logo
3) Windows XP Desktop

As far as I understand it, it's only for #1 and #2 that are effected by ATOM-15/new hacked ROM.  #3 is actually CRTEmu / modified ATI Windows drivers.

My problem is the gap as #1 moves to #2 and #2 moves to #3.  There are moments of no video and the monitor goes crazy.  What I'm trying to understand is what is being fed to the arcade monitor? According to the JPAC, there is no SYNC (SYNC OK turns OFF) during these moments. 
On the other hand, when GroovyMAME switches between the many different resolutions I have programmed, it never has this problem.  Windows is able to switch resolutions without causing the PCB auto sense relay to go crazy .. only the BIOS/ROM mode does that.

As for the 800x600@50i resolution .. when would one ever want this?? I don't believe the BIOS or Windows boot logo is at that resolution (it's probably 320x240 or some low res like that). By the time Windows is up, CRT Emu/GroovyMAME has taken over and the hack Atom-15 put into place is no longer used (right??)

Before I used the Atom-15 hack, I recall only 2 clicks:

#1 - black screen -> BIOS POST
#2 - Windows Logo -> Windows booting / CRT Emu taken over.

The time between these, the Video card ROM was outputting 31khz, and the JPAC was doing its split screen down to 15khz.  It seems something has changed. I understand my monitor is a lot more sensitive than most (as it uses a mechanical / relay sensor) and most people will be using a standard 15khz monitor only and won't notice any issues.  My concern is that there are momentary instances where >>15khz is fed to the monitor PCB and most people don't realize this is happening. (not to mention the clicking is annoying).

I'm more than willing to try new beta drivers of Atom-15 to solve this problem.
 

[Sledge]

An easy way to get around this would be to only turn the screen on once you have booted into windows..

[JoeB]

An easy way to get around this would be to only turn the screen on once you have booted into windows..

That would defeat the purpose of atom-15. It's also not an option on a real arcade that's integrated and closed.

[cools]

If you only have the 15khz  jumper on the JPAC you should not have had the split screen in the past, that behaviour only happens with 15 and 31 jumpers. http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac2.html

[Calamity]

According to the JPAC, there is no SYNC (SYNC OK turns OFF) during these moments.

There is sync. I mean obviously the sync signal will be off for the short instant (fraction of second) it takes to reprogram the CRTC but that's all. If the JPAC was reflecting the real situation, you'd see its led flashing very fast only once per mode switch, instead of turning off for a "long" period.

As for the 800x600@50i resolution .. when would one ever want this?? I don't believe the BIOS or Windows boot logo is at that resolution (it's probably 320x240 or some low res like that). By the time Windows is up, CRT Emu/GroovyMAME has taken over and the hack Atom-15 put into place is no longer used (right??)

800x600 is VESA mode 103h which some bioses require (mine for instance). Windows XP boot logo is BIOS mode 12h (640x480 16 colors). Yes, the BIOS video routines only apply to the boot process, until the Windows/Linux drivers take over.

My concern is that there are momentary instances where >>15khz is fed to the monitor PCB and most people don't realize this is happening. (not to mention the clicking is annoying).

I'm telling you this is not the case. If you're still skeptic I encourage you to hook a PC CRT monitor and check what it says on its osd.

I'm more than willing to try new beta drivers of Atom-15 to solve this problem.

The fact that this is "experimental" software doesn't mean it is "beta". Let me explain: I wouldn't know what to change or improve in order to fix your problem. The way it handles video now is probably all what can be done from the BIOS side. It is experimental in the sense that I can't test it in every existing card so there may be hardware that is different from a low level I/O point of view or just BIOSes with a different layout from what I've seen so far, so it will fail in those cases, and for this reason I say "CAUTION". But if your card is allowing your system to boot fine and the modes are working then the problem is not with ATOM-15.

Is it possible to hook your monitor directly bypassing the JPAC, just for testing? Maybe the JPAC doesn't like the timings that ATOM-15 is applying (though being correct). Maybe it is expecting the ones from the ArcadeVGA. Those shouldn't be too different but since I calculated my own timings there will be slight differences in porch and sync timings. But the same thing applies to CRT Emudriver and you don't have issues there...

I have tested this with a JPAC and the boot process was smooth but to be honest it was a fixed 15 kHz arcade monitor. When testing this with my tri-sync Polostar I hooked it directly to the VGA input and the boot process is rather smooth too, in either of the frequency ranges I've tested.

BTW, Cools is right, you need both 15 and 31 kHz jumpers.

[JoeB]

Did some more testing today:

15k only or 15k + 31k jumpers - no difference.
No jumpers - picture is rolling (v and h sync combined passed through from video card to monitor)
Bypass JPAC - same as no jumpers - rolling picture + much dimmer picture (seems MS9 needs the video amp) but relay clicks practically gone!

So it seems that when the video card changes video modes, the JPAC doesn't pass through sync momentarily and relay clicks in.

Any idea why this doesn't occur when windows driver changes resolution? Is it because it does it much quicker or does crt emu keep 15k constant the whole time while video card ROM changes sync (or generates no sync) when switching resolution?

I'm going to keep it as is and learn to live with it.

I still love it! Seeing full screen bios on arcade monitor is amazing for maintenance.

[cools]

Fwiw I don't have this problem with a JammASD and an MS8

[Calamity]

It looks like your monitor is set up for composite sync which the JPAC is outputting. If you connect it directly, you either have to set it up for separate sync or wire the sync lines together (I remind reading somewhere advising against this, not sure). I guess with some work it should be possible to use the RGB lines from the JPAC while bypassing it for the sync lines.

Any idea why this doesn't occur when windows driver changes resolution?

No idea. Maybe a slight difference in how the signal is turned off before reprogramming the CRTC is what triggers the problem.

[ratsflif]

I just ran this tool on my cab, was super excited when the bios and windows boot screens were in sync but....

It just hangs at the windows boot screen now.  If I let it sit for a few mins nothing changes and when i hit a key on the keyboard the system reboots...

[adder]

It just hangs at the windows boot screen now.  If I let it sit for a few mins nothing changes and when i hit a key on the keyboard the system reboots...

what about if u try 'safe mode' instead, any different behaviour?

[ratsflif]

Same with safe mode.  I'm gonna boot into dos from usb and flash it back.

[ratsflif]

I guess I broke windows...

I flashed the original bios back to the card and it boots up out of sync on the cga monitor as it should but it still hangs at the windows screen.

Booting from the onboard video with the HD4650 removed still hangs at the windows screen.

[Calamity]

I guess I broke windows...

I flashed the original bios back to the card and it boots up out of sync on the cga monitor as it should but it still hangs at the windows screen.

Booting from the onboard video with the HD4650 removed still hangs at the windows screen.

Then it looks like an unrelated problem, although the fact that it coincided in time with the flashing process makes it look like the cause. But honestly I can't see how this could break Windows.

[ratsflif]

I guess I broke windows...

I flashed the original bios back to the card and it boots up out of sync on the cga monitor as it should but it still hangs at the windows screen.

Booting from the onboard video with the HD4650 removed still hangs at the windows screen.

Then it looks like an unrelated problem, although the fact that it coincided in time with the flashing process makes it look like the cause. But honestly I can't see how this could break Windows.

Yeah, IDK.  I tend to agree but the computer was solid for over 6 months in the cab, was working fine, did the flash, reboot, hanging windows...

I decided to flash the moded bios back to the video card and did a fresh install of windows after the flash, seems to be working now.

[JoeB]

Fwiw I don't have this problem with a JammASD and an MS8

MS8 / MS9-29S are all "dumb" dual res monitors.  They need you to manually move a connector on the chassis to select between frequencies.  The MS9-29A has a relay with some extra components where you have the frequency posts which senses between 15k/25k and changes resolution.  If you need 31k+ it automatically shuts down the monitor.  A full power out for >30 seconds will reset the monitor and allow you to feed video again.

In my case, for some reason, something the JPAC is doing in combination with ATOM-15 is causing no-sync to be sent to the monitor, and the safety feature is triggered.

If I were to guess what's going on, I would say that there is a difference between the way BIOS/POST changes resolutions and the way windows drivers does.  The JPAC doesn't like this, and to "protect 15k monitors" drops sync.  On "dumb" 15k monitors, the picture goes out; on my monitor the safety feature kicks in but comes back before power out which causes the annoying relay clicks.  If the JPAC were not to drop the sync, then I'm sure all would be fine!

Keep in mind that I require the JPAC.  I need it's amp, it's ability to interface between the PC and my cab, and it's ability to protect my monitor if something goes wrong (feed 31k somehow to monitor).  Everything goes through it, include video output from windows drivers, which does not cause the JPAC to detect sync problems.

So there is a difference in resolution changing .. not sure what it is.  But I know it's not the resolution, but the way it changes it.

[krick]

Keep in mind that I require the JPAC.  I need it's amp, it's ability to interface between the PC and my cab, and it's ability to protect my monitor if something goes wrong (feed 31k somehow to monitor).

You could probably work around not having a JPAC, though it's kind of a pain if your cabinet is already wired with a JAMMA harness.

1) Ultimarc sells a video amp cable. http://www.ultimarc.com/vidamp.html
2) Ultimarc sells various IPAC interfaces that can be used to directly wire to your cabinet.  If you need something that plugs into JAMMA, I guess you could get a JAMMA fingerboard and wire that up to an IPAC and then plug the fingerboard into your harness.
3) I'm not sure your monitor needs protecting from out of range signals.  It sounds like your monitor already has built-in protection.