groovymame benefits vs. a standard AVGA+AVGARes+Trisync setup?

[8BitMonk]

I currently use an ArcadeVGA 5000 with windows 7 and a trisync Betson Imperial 27" monitor. I use the AVGA res tool to set all of the custom res's and then customize some of the ini files for better results. Everything seems to work really well.

What (if any) advantage is there for me to use groovymame? I'm still unclear on what the differences are between a setup like mine and groovymame. Also does groovymame work on windows 7 now, I remember reading something about booting off of a flash drive in order for it to work in windows.

Thanks!

[bulbousbeard]

You just answered your own question. Why are you ---smurfing--- around with INI files when GroovyMAME will run everything properly automatically?

[8BitMonk]

The ini files take about 30 seconds to create using the AVGARes tool and seconds to adjust for the handful I'd want to manually tweak.

Groovymame is not 'automatic', there is the question of the OS, time to install it and per game adjustments after the fact just like with the ini files.

My question is what am I gaining (specific to my setup) that would motivate me to invest the time to switch. 

[bulbousbeard]

There are no per game adjustments with GroovyMAME. Once it's installed, every game runs at its native resolution and refresh rate. I didn't have to tweak any game manually. I think that's the main selling point.

The problem with ArcadeVGA is that you can't get stuff like 55hz for R-Type unless you do some manual screwing around.

[8BitMonk]

A quick scan of recent topics shows per game issues running Star Wars, R-Type and Kung Fu Master with an AVGA... black bars on vertical games and a suggestion to change the pots to accommodate. I've seen other posts in the past on game specific issues. Any time you're using a single monitor for a variety of game resolution and aspects there's going to be tweaks.

[cools]

Don't use an ArcadeVGA with Windows GroovyMAME and all is well.

I have no game specific inis except for those that are interlaced normally where I disable MAME scanlines. Groovy handles everything else perfectly.

[8BitMonk]

Thanks for the feedback cools.

• So what you're saying is if you want to use an AVGA card (or already are using one) it's best NOT to use it with groovymame? Even though I see posts about people using AVGA cards in this forum?
• What is the exact advantage? It seems like the limited time it takes to create the ini files is offset by the time to install and configure groovymame? Card cost? I guess if you don't go with the AVGA it's a cheaper card. Anything else?
• Do the benefits apply to using groovymame with both a standard res and multi-sync monitor?
• Is groovymame now fully compatible with Windows 7? I know there was mention of having to install Linux or booting Win 7 from a flash drive.

'It handles everything perfectly' isn't really a specific benefit. The ini file route pretty much 'handles everything perfectly' as well, the only adjustments I make is if I see screen tearing (I turn on tripplebuffer and/or vsync in the ini) or if I want an alternate res for a vertical game. Looking for something more definitive that would convince me of the benefit.

[cools]

There's an abundance of posts that come up doing a search regarding the ArcadeVGA and GroovyMAME, but this one sums it up nicely.

As explained, the refresh rates used by the ArcadeVGA are fixed, so can only use 60 Hz for most resolutions and 54 Hz for 400x256 (Mortal Kombat). In situations where the game refresh doesn't match (many) you have to choose between smooth scrolling & wrong speed or choppy scrolling & correct speed.

Using CRT_Emudriver together with GroovyMAME/UME gets you far more accurate emulation. That's the benefit. By handles everything perfectly I meant in terms of emulation quality, not just "everything works" but "everything's near as dammit close to the original". In terms of configuration time - it's just a matter of installing the driver and editing a few lines in two ini files to suit.

If you're running on any CRT you should be using the above combination. That's my opinion, others may think differently.

GroovyMAME always was compatible with Windows 7, it was CRT_Emudriver (which can be used for other emulators quite happily) that was not. It's fine now.

If you're using an ArcadeVGA then you want to be running under Linux as you won't be limited by the driver in terms of resolutions. However at the moment Linux has an input lag issue that no-one seems to be able to pin down, so it's not as worthwhile as Windows.

[8BitMonk]

Interesting, thanks for the addition info cools, that's helpful.

Still not sure where I'd see the difference emulation-wise as the setup I have now doesn't seem flawed in that regard at all. I mean if I load up Street Fighter, Robotron, Pacman or pretty much any classic is looks and plays exactly like the original to my eyes. Vertical games are a concession but that's more a function of having a horizontal monitor.

The thing I'd be sacraficing by going away from the AVGA (especially the 5000) is that it's a beefy enough card to run 3D console games and some of the newest PC games like Mortal Kombat and Injustice. Not sure I'd be willing to give that up for what seems like a very minimal emulation quality bump. One of those things that's hard to gauge without a side-by-side comparison I guess. 

[Calamity]

Hi 8BitMonk,

"Vs" threads, a modern classic

You need to see the limitations of your current setup before you can understand the advantages of GroovyMAME + CRT Emudriver. A few years ago I was running a setup like yours with an AVGA and configuring games with AVRes. It will look perfect at first but it is actually when you get down to play the games that you realize of the compromises you need to take. To keep short, for decent results in emulation you need many different refresh rates at your disposal.

The AVGA does have its own advantages, specifically being able to output 15 KHz during the boot process. This helps A LOT when you are doing your first setup and still have no experience with this stuff. From the pile of things that can fail, at least you can discard the card not outputting the right frequency. This advantage dims as you get more experience and learn some workarounds but it is certeainly a plus.

Now, regarding your question about the specific advantages of GroovyMAME for AVGA users, there are some too:

- Not only it will pick the right resolution for any game as AVRes does, it will configure the proper synchronizing options for you.
- Reduced input lag also applies.
- It fixes the problem of switching between interlaced & progressive modes in Windows 7
- It allows using Direct3D without the usual fractional scaling issues.
- It allows interfacing with Powerstrip so you can actually tweak the refresh rate on a per game basis.

A clever use of the Powerstrip feature with an AVGA has the potential of providing similar results as you'd get with GroovyMAME + CRT Emudriver. However in this case the configuration is totally manual and would be very time consuming.

Groovymame is not 'automatic', there is the question of the OS, time to install it and per game adjustments after the fact just like with the ini files.

It is automatic as an automatic car is (no clutch pedal) rather than a car that drives alone.

A quick scan of recent topics shows per game issues running Star Wars, R-Type and Kung Fu Master with an AVGA... black bars on vertical games and a suggestion to change the pots to accommodate. I've seen other posts in the past on game specific issues. Any time you're using a single monitor for a variety of game resolution and aspects there's going to be tweaks.

Most of the issues you'll see are brought by users with a lack of understanding on super basic stuff, not only GroovyMAME related.

However GroovyMAME was not developed with the AVGA in mind. The AVGA has some quirks that need to be considered and it requires some extra user input to get it configured properly.

[cools]

FWIW I was running particular favourites of mine on PCB and regularly testing versus MAME, and it wasn't until I gave Groovy a try I was happy enough selling the boards. I have owned an ArcadeVGA in the past and didn't find it suitable.

[8BitMonk]

Thanks for all of the info, Calamity I was hoping you'd chime in! This is hugely helpful and the type of breakdown I was looking for to convince me it'd be worth the effort to at least set it up and test it.

Now that I'm convinced of the benefit the question is can I continue to use my AVGA card with GroovyMAME + CRT Emudriver in Windows 7? I really don't want to switch to Linux and I'd like to still be able to play the newest SF, MK, Injustice and console emulated games alongside my classics. Cools you say CRT Emudriver is now fine in Windows now but if I'm running an AVGA I'd want to run Linux?

If it's possible but not optimal to run my AVGA card in Win7 with GroovyMAME + CRT Emudriver what would I sacraficing by sticking with it and is there another more compatible card that could handle more modern games?

Thanks again for breaking down the 'vs.' questions, hopefully it'll help others as well.

[sean_sk]

Howdy 8BitMonk

The CRT Emudriver is a modified Windows ATI driver that can only be used with ATI Radeon HD 4xxx series cards and older. Anything HD 5000 and newer won't work. The CRT Emudriver cannot not be used with the Arcade VGA. The AVGA has it's own drivers since it has a custom BIOS. CRT Emudriver is separate software from Groovymame but is used in conjuction with each other.

I have an AVGA which I'm currently using in my cab. While there are benefits to it that suit me for my purpose it's greatest drawback is that in Windows you have only roughly 30 resolutions to chose from for your various games. With an ATI card and CRT Emudriver your choice of resolutions and refresh rates can be 4 or 5 times that, perhaps more. The more resolutions and refresh rates at your disposal the better as Groovymame automatically choses the right one for the game you want to play. If you dont have the right one then it choses the nearest. I use Powerstrip software with my AVGA to provide me more refresh rate options, but my number of resolutions is still limited to 30.

From what I've read (and I could be wrong) the AVGA 5000 works in Linux with the Linux ATI drivers. I think  this is because it is detected as a standard ATI graphics card. The advantage to this is that you get a huge choice of resolutions much like an ATI card would get in Windows with the CRT Emudriver.

[8BitMonk]

Thanks for the explanation sean_skroht, that makes things more clear.

You say the AVGA can't be used with CRT Emudriver but then that it works in Linux. Can you clarify which is correct?

Probably a moot point anyway, I'm not up for switching the OS in my cab to Linux and I want to retain the ability to play more recent PC games. Is that why you've kept yours, is that the 'benefit' you mention?

I may install Powerstrip and expiriment with expanding the available resolutions and refresh rates but I've heard it can be a pain. I had been playing around with the Arcade Perfect tool Ultimarc released which was supposed to similarly allow tweaking of resolutions and refresh rates but it's unsupported on the 5000.

[sean_sk]

You say the AVGA can't be used with CRT Emudriver but then that it works in Linux. Can you clarify which is correct?

As far as I'm aware both is correct. CRT Emudriver is only for Windows and can't be used with the AVGA so you would therefore use the AVGA drivers from Ultimarc website. In Linux the AVGA is recognized as a standard ATI video card and regular Linux ATI drivers work with it.

I've never actually used Linux and I'm only going by what I've read in this forum. So if anyone else that uses an AVGA with Linux wants to chime in with some information that would be great.

I do actually have a spare ATI HD 4670 which I'm reserving as a spare for my cab in the event my AVGA fails. At the moment I prefer using the AVGA as it delivers a 15 kHz signal at boot time, unlike regular ATI cards that send a 31 kHz signal (or sometimes higher). This means if you use a regular ATI card with a J-Pac, the J-Pac divides the 31 kHz signal into two pictures, so you effectively see two BIOS screens and two Windows boot screens side-by-side on startup.

Whereas the AVGA delivers a 15 kHz from the get-go and therefore only one BIOS screen and one boot screen appears. I'm currently testing overclocks in my cab at the moment which means it's easy to view the BIOS without having to hook up an LCD monitor (it's hard to see whats going on in the BIOS when there are two of it side-by-side.) Plus I have customized my Windows startup so that it is hidden from view, simply to try and avoid spoiling the illusion that its an arcade machine. So if you use custom boot up screens it's nice not to have to see two of them, as you would if you were using an ATI card.

Having said that, an ATI graphics card used in conjunction with CRT Emudriver is a much more versatile way to go when it comes to the amount of resolutions and refresh rates that Groovmame gets to chose from for games.

[Sledge]

Having said that, an ATI graphics card used in conjunction with CRT Emudriver is a much more versatile way to go when it comes to the amount of resolutions and refresh rates that Groovmame gets to chose from for games.

About time you agreed with me that it's a better option...

[sean_sk]

About time you agreed with me that it's a better option...

Pfft. I've never agreed with you on anything.

[8BitMonk]

Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I'm sticking with my setup, the benefits of a more powerful card and being able to run Windows for me outweigh any minor gains I may see in emulation quality.

Honestly I still question the amount of quality difference between the two. The 30 or so main resolutions used by the AVGA seem to cover (or come really close to covering) the most widely used resolutions. Would I really notice a difference running robotron at 292x240 vs. 296x240? I get little or no tearing in games and if I do I turn on triplebuffer or vysync and it's good, yeah it's not emulated perfectly but still damn good to anyone but the hardcore arcade purist. Of course some people say the same thing about LCD vs. arcade monitor quality and I utterly disagree so let's hear it for hippocracy.

Goes to show that what constitutes an acceptable level of emulation quality is completely subjective.

[Calamity]

Hi 8BitMonk,

Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I'm sticking with my setup, the benefits of a more powerful card and being able to run Windows for me outweigh any minor gains I may see in emulation quality.

I'm not sure if I get you right here, you can obviously run Windows with CRT Emudriver and the range of hardware it supports still includes cards that outperform the HD 5450 the AVGA is based on:

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=7&cmp[]=30

It looks like you wanted to underestimate the objective advantages of CRT Emudriver just to convince yourself you made right election. If you are happy with your setup, then you made the right election.

The 30 or so main resolutions used by the AVGA seem to cover (or come really close to covering) the most widely used resolutions.

"Most widely" is definitely optimistic but anyway... again, it's the refresh rates what you're missing. Refresh rates are the core of decent emulation.

I get little or no tearing in games and if I do I turn on triplebuffer or vysync and it's good

You can't have "little or no tearing", either you have tearing or you don't. Tearing ruins emulation. Choppy scrolling due to triple buffering at wrong refresh rates ruins emulation.

Trust me it's not a matter of "minor gains". If people goes through the pain of configuring all this stuff, it's for a good reason I don't agree it's a "subjective" matter either. Facts are objective.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. If you're happy with your setup, stick with it. It's definitely way better than an LCD setup will ever be. I agree there's a lot of people that wouldn't tell the difference or simply wouldn't care, that's why the ArcadeVGA has its niche market. And you can still explore the Powerstrip route some day if you feel the need.

[Paradroid]

Refresh rates are the core of decent emulation.

Agreed. When I started out, I thought everything was just fine using the modes supplied by Soft 15 kHz but after a while I noticed the dropped frames on Stage 2 of Blazing Star and the way that Snow Bros jerkily scrolled between stages. Once you have noticed those things and understand their cause, it's really hard to ignore them. My eyes just gravitate to those negative visual artifacts.

I'd say the only subjective part is what you're willing to compromise (LCD vs CRT, running vertical games on a horizontal screen,  interlacing VGA for 15 kHz displays, triple buffer vs wrong refresh rate, etc.)

[cools]

Yeah, once you spot that judder its game over, I can't tolerate it.

[8BitMonk]

I'm not sure if I get you right here, you can obviously run Windows with CRT Emudriver and the range of hardware it supports still includes cards that outperform the HD 5450 the AVGA is based on:

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=7&cmp[]=30

Thanks for this, I just assumed the 5450 was more powerful given the higher number!

If that's the case then there's really nothing to stop me from at least trying it. Any suggestions for a good place to pick one up. A quick look on Amazon, NewEgg and Microcenter shows them either unavailable or used. You mention the 4870 but I notice in another thread you say the 4890 is the top card that will work. Is the 4870 just a better value? I'm assuming you can get them in 1Gb or above versions as well.

It looks like you wanted to underestimate the objective advantages of CRT Emudriver just to convince yourself you made right election. If you are happy with your setup, then you made the right election.

"Most widely" is definitely optimistic but anyway... again, it's the refresh rates what you're missing. Refresh rates are the core of decent emulation.

Yeah I kind of felt like I was talking myself into it since it was my only alternative.  Realistically I don't have anything for comparison and I was just envisioning the shift wouldn't be as dramatic as say going from and LCD to a true arcade monitor with the right card was.

You can't have "little or no tearing", either you have tearing or you don't. Tearing ruins emulation. Choppy scrolling due to triple buffering at wrong refresh rates ruins emulation.

I was referring to the number of games I see it in, not the amount per game. Mostly in fast paced side scrollers or vertical shmups. I usually don't get choppy scrolling but rather an occasional ripple through the screen.

Trust me it's not a matter of "minor gains". If people goes through the pain of configuring all this stuff, it's for a good reason I don't agree it's a "subjective" matter either. Facts are objective.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. If you're happy with your setup, stick with it. It's definitely way better than an LCD setup will ever be. I agree there's a lot of people that wouldn't tell the difference or simply wouldn't care, that's why the ArcadeVGA has its niche market. And you can still explore the Powerstrip route some day if you feel the need.

I'm all for trying it out, I trust your expert opinion especially since you've had direct experience with the AVGA setup. If it's just a matter of picking up a 4870 or 4890 and downloading and installing the software I'm going to give it a go.

[Sledge]

I'm not sure if I get you right here, you can obviously run Windows with CRT Emudriver and the range of hardware it supports still includes cards that outperform the HD 5450 the AVGA is based on:

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=7&cmp[]=30

Thanks for this, I just assumed the 5450 was more powerful given the higher number!

If that's the case then there's really nothing to stop me from at least trying it. Any suggestions for a good place to pick one up. A quick look on Amazon, NewEgg and Microcenter shows them either unavailable or used. You mention the 4870 but I notice in another thread you say the 4890 is the top card that will work. Is the 4870 just a better value? I'm assuming you can get them in 1Gb or above versions as well.

It looks like you wanted to underestimate the objective advantages of CRT Emudriver just to convince yourself you made right election. If you are happy with your setup, then you made the right election.

"Most widely" is definitely optimistic but anyway... again, it's the refresh rates what you're missing. Refresh rates are the core of decent emulation.

Yeah I kind of felt like I was talking myself into it since it was my only alternative.  Realistically I don't have anything for comparison and I was just envisioning the shift wouldn't be as dramatic as say going from and LCD to a true arcade monitor with the right card was.

You can't have "little or no tearing", either you have tearing or you don't. Tearing ruins emulation. Choppy scrolling due to triple buffering at wrong refresh rates ruins emulation.

I was referring to the number of games I see it in, not the amount per game. Mostly in fast paced side scrollers or vertical shmups. I usually don't get choppy scrolling but rather an occasional ripple through the screen.

Trust me it's not a matter of "minor gains". If people goes through the pain of configuring all this stuff, it's for a good reason I don't agree it's a "subjective" matter either. Facts are objective.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. If you're happy with your setup, stick with it. It's definitely way better than an LCD setup will ever be. I agree there's a lot of people that wouldn't tell the difference or simply wouldn't care, that's why the ArcadeVGA has its niche market. And you can still explore the Powerstrip route some day if you feel the need.

I'm all for trying it out, I trust your expert opinion especially since you've had direct experience with the AVGA setup. If it's just a matter of picking up a 4870 or 4890 and downloading and installing the software I'm going to give it a go.

HD4850 or HD4870 should be good.. The better the card, the more heat it will generate.. so you need to find a suitable spot in the middle..

[Calamity]

Hi 8BitMonk,

I recommend that you stick with your setup, maybe test GroovyMAME with it. If you eventually feel the need to change because you start noticing the aforementioned issues to a point that annoyes you, then do it.

I'm with Sledge in that, the HD 4890 is overkill.

One important thing you need to be aware of is that the HD 4xxx cards, although powerful enough in their high end segment, only support up to DirectX 10. Some modern emulators require DirectX 11 capable cards.

[8BitMonk]

Thanks again for all of the feedback and info.

[8BitMonk]

So I picked up an XFX Radeon HD 4870 1Gb card for $65 off ebay and yanked the AVGA card out of my cab. Calamity, the sure way to get me to do something is to tell me not to.   

So far I've just installed the new card and hooked it up to an LCD for testing and to install GroovyMAME and CRT Emudriver before hooking it back up to my arcade monitor. I played SFIV, MK and Injustice and they ran great even at high resolutions, much better than the AVGA so I'm feeling optimistic.

Now off to read about how to set this all up and give it a go. Figured I'd continue this thread to chronicle my setup experience and thoughts on the end result vs. the AVGA.