Immersion Input Matrix Wiring Questions

[mbasile35]

Hey guys


I've got a few leads on an single board style Immersion FFB PCB so I want to get my cabinet ready for wiring the input matrix and I have a few questions. My first one is about the diodes that wire in series with the pushbutton switch. If I wanted to make a small pcb with all of the diodes in a remote location So that I didnt have to solder diodes directly to the switches...would that work? Something like this:


My next question has to do with wiring a Happ 4 speed shifter to the matrix. With one of the "gear" switches always closed, will that interfere with the matrix? Also will that interfere with any emulators and if so do you guys have any ways to work around this? That's it for now but as I go through this I'm sure I'll have a few more questions and I'll bring them up here. Thanks Guys!

Mike

[BadMouth]

You're still around and working on your cab!

Definitely put all the diodes on another board instead of on the switches.
It will make wiring simpler and easier to understand.
Not sure how much soldering you do, but I'd use a blank proto-board with a cable running to the immersion pcb and a row of screw terminals along one edge to wire buttons to.
The same thing could be done with just wiring, but wouldn't look as neat or be as reliable.
My brain is done for the day, so I haven't checked your diagram for errors or anything.

Pretty sure the happ shifter has 4 switches.  Are you sure you don't have the ketz one?
Please post pics if unsure.

[mbasile35]

You're still around and working on your cab!

Definitely put all the diodes on another board instead of on the switches.
It will make wiring simpler and easier to understand.
Not sure how much soldering you do, but I'd use a blank proto-board with a cable running to the immersion pcb and a row of screw terminals along one edge to wire buttons to.
The same thing could be done with just wiring, but wouldn't look as neat or be as reliable.
My brain is done for the day, so I haven't checked your diagram for errors or anything.

Pretty sure the happ shifter has 4 switches.  Are you sure you don't have the ketz one?
Please post pics if unsure.

Oh yeah slowly but surely I do little things here and there and every once in a while I'll knock out a few big things at once. This just happens to be one of those times.

That was my original thought to use a perf board and screw terminals...If it works well I may end of looking into getting an actual custom pcb made with headers to match the Immersion board but we'll see.  I'm fairly certain the way I've draw it should work, just wanted a second or third opinion. And I'm assuming it's a Happ 4 speed shifter but could be wrong. It's off of a Cruisin' control panel. I'll get some pics tomorrow. I'm thinking if those four switches make up the same "sense" column (if that makes any sense...no pun intended) then i should be fine.

I also wasn't sure about the diodes. I'm guessing any old diode will work but just in case...I have a bunch of these laying around: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/1N5817-E3-73/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtQ8nqTKtFS%2fJkHNs4hgXaDYEhDurilN70%3d

Will that do the trick?

Thanks again
Mike

[BadMouth]

I also wasn't sure about the diodes. I'm guessing any old diode will work but just in case...I have a bunch of these laying around: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/1N5817-E3-73/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtQ8nqTKtFS%2fJkHNs4hgXaDYEhDurilN70%3d

I've asked those wiser than me what model diodes would be correct for this type of application and have never been able to get an answer other than "any", so you should be fine.

[Fursphere]

It seems with pinball machines - if you need a "diode" for blocking purposes, the 1N4004 is used just about everywhere.  Whole banks of the damn things.

[mbasile35]

Ok guys, since my last post, I've gotten an Immersion single board style FFB pcb, wired the majority of the controls on my cab and hooked the thing up. I've got analog inputs working just fine but I can't seem to get my digital inputs working.

I made the diode pcb mentioned above and have inputs wired to switches 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 13, and 14. I've got it all out of order like this for ease of wiring but now I'm concerned that my problem is that the entire matrix isn't populated...then again it would basically be like the switches that aren't there just appear open to the PCB....i dunno. Any ideas on what i can be doing wrong?


EDIT:

I had the idea that maybe the inputs were powered off of the amplifier power input so I plugged that in. I wasn't able to test out the inputs because after I wired the AC input to the power supply and the DC output of the power supply to the AMP power in on the Immersion board, the power supply would make sound almost like high frequency clicking. This would happen only when the USB was plugged it. I let it go for about 30=40 seconds and the USB cable and DC power wires were getting hot. Also, my computer froze and the screen went black so I could tell the USB was drawing a lot of current from the computer's PSU. I'm completely baffled with this thing....any help??

Thanks,

Mike

[twistedsymphony]

I realize that's what the Immersion documentation recommends but diodes don't seem like the most reliable method to do this since they have the potential to leak back (they're not a perfect one way "valve").

Wouldn't it make sense to use a collection of OR logic gates? Say a set of 4 7432 ICs this would also allow you to leave your switches using a common ground setup instead of having to rewire them all.



You'd tie one input on an OR gate to the scan pin for a given button, the other input of the OR gate to your common ground wired button, and then the output pin of that OR gate would go to the proper sense pin. No leak-back, a perfectly stable input signal, and your buttons can keep using common ground.

You could make a little jumper PCB that slides onto the connector on the immersion board and then has it's own set of 16 input pins.

The only real downside is that you'd have to supply power to the 7432s

FWIW this kind of matrixed input is exactly what Sega used for it's controllers in the Genesis and Saturn, but they used logic gates in the controllers, not diodes.

[BadMouth]

Ok guys, since my last post, I've gotten an Immersion single board style FFB pcb, wired the majority of the controls on my cab and hooked the thing up. I've got analog inputs working just fine but I can't seem to get my digital inputs working.

I made the diode pcb mentioned above and have inputs wired to switches 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 13, and 14. I've got it all out of order like this for ease of wiring but now I'm concerned that my problem is that the entire matrix isn't populated...then again it would basically be like the switches that aren't there just appear open to the PCB....i dunno. Any ideas on what i can be doing wrong?


EDIT:

I had the idea that maybe the inputs were powered off of the amplifier power input so I plugged that in. I wasn't able to test out the inputs because after I wired the AC input to the power supply and the DC output of the power supply to the AMP power in on the Immersion board, the power supply would make sound almost like high frequency clicking. This would happen only when the USB was plugged it. I let it go for about 30=40 seconds and the USB cable and DC power wires were getting hot. Also, my computer froze and the screen went black so I could tell the USB was drawing a lot of current from the computer's PSU. I'm completely baffled with this thing....any help??

Thanks,

Mike

Is it possible something is grounded in your matrix?
(not sure what the ground going to NC in your diagram is for either)

I'd disconnect everything wired to the matrix and try to trigger the immersion inputs one at a time, just to make sure that it's working properly.
I'm sure you've seen it already, but refer to my pinout and explanation in this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135310.msg1397078.html#msg1397078

Start out with "think of SCAN 1 as the ground and SENSE 1-4 as the buttons"
Make sure you don't have your Scan and Sense buttons reversed.

[mbasile35]

Twisted symphony, thanks for the idea.  I might look into that if i continue to have issues.

Badmouth thanks for the advice, I'll look into everything tonight. The ground pin is just not connected I'm not sure why I drew it like that.  I'll report back with results tonight

[BadMouth]

If it's just wired wrong or the diodes are placed wrong, the worst thing that should be able to happen is that you'll get multiple inputs being triggered.

Make sure two inputs of the same type (i.e. scan) aren't connected without a diode in between.
You could test that with a multi-meter without having it connected to the immersion board.

I want to build a matrix on proto board for myself, but won't have the free time anytime soon.

[mbasile35]

For reference here is how the board is wired...



Alright so I was able to test the inputs like you said badmouth and everything works from the header on the immersion board and from the header on my diode board, but the inputs do not work from the individual headers that go out to the buttons. This leads me to believe that the diodes are the problem. I followed the drawing in the immersion manual so that each switch connects to the anode of a diode and the cathode connects to the scan wire. Did i miss something and my diodes are backwards? Or could it be that my diodes aren't fit for this use?

[BadMouth]

Looks like it matches the immersion diagram to me.
I guess it's possible that the diodes could cause a big enough voltage drop that the immersion board wouldn't consider it triggered.
I don't think it's likely, but is possible.

Try connecting just one switch with a diode in-line.
If it works, then the diodes aren't the issue.

Check that project board to make sure that you don't have connections where they shouldn't be.
I'm assuming the white outlines on top show the holes that are connected, but it's worth checking.

That or having scan and sense reversed are the only things I can think of.
Did you make your own cable?  Make sure it connects the appropriate pins on both sides.
(a crossover cable might be required or vice versa)

[mbasile35]

Thanks badmouth.  I'll check the single switch thing tonight.  If that doesn't work I'll probably try reversing my scan and sense wires and see if that does anything. Could that have any ill effects on the board if they are in the right position now and switching them makes them wrong?

And yes I did make the cable.  I've checked that and the project board for errors but it can't hurt to check again

Thanks again.  I'll post back tonight with my findings

Edit: just so you know the diagram on the original post
Shows the actual pinout on thw diode board but on the pic of the board where i drew  in the wiring I show the immersion pinout to avoid confusion

[mbasile35]

After a frustrating night of checking and rechecking all of my work...I've got input! I ended up finding a few molex pins that weren't crimped well...i guess thats what happens when you don't have the right tool for the job. Anyway the big problem was that my scan and sense lines were swapped. I don't know...i could have swore I followed the diagram in the immersion book to a t. I'm not even going to try to understand where it went wrong. All i know is that it works now and thats all that matters. Huge thanks to badmouth for his input on different troubleshooting techniques.

I'll be getting 18 gauge wire in tomorrow so hopefully this weekend I can wire power to the motor amp section and get that figured out. When I originally tested it I was using cheap test jumpers made of super thin wire and i may have been shorting two pins or something. We'll see!


thanks again
Mike

[BadMouth]

Glad it's working.
Do you have part #'s for the connectors you used?

[mbasile35]

Not right now but when I get home I can post them. They are in the back of the immersion manual, though, on the second to last page. If you put those numbers into mouser's search bar that specific connector is the only thing that comes up. And for the headers the data sheets have links to mating products.  But again ill post all of my part numbers when I'm home.

[mbasile35]

Didn't get a chance to get back to the computer last night sorry.

The part number for the 9 pin wire housing for the input matrix is 22-01-3097
to get any other housing use the same part number but change that bold number to the number of positions. the 6 pin housings used for the pots (on the single board anyway) is 22-01-3067

Motor and power housings are 09-50-8021 (for 2 position) and same goes for number of positions

 You also need seperate pins for each wire that goes into the housing. 08-50-0114 is the part number for the smaller pins for the input matrix and pots. 08-50-0106 for the power input and motor output pins.

I got a cheap pair of crimpers from ebay  here:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Open-Barrel-Terminal-Deutsch-Crimper-Tool-OEM-AMP-Tyco-Delphi-Molex-Harley-/251438891840?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8aed0340

They aren't exactly the right thing but they work good enough. The "right thing" is pair from molex for more than $200.


The header is this part number 22-11-2092 again just change the bold number for different sizes

Anyways....new issue.

I wired the power supply and motor today. I'm still having a similar problem but its a little bit different. Now when both the high power 24v supply and the usb cable are plugged in, I get both red leds indicting that both sources are connected but I lose the green led that is normally on when a USB connection is made. Also, i lost signal to my monitor. I'm not sure if that's temporary or what but i don't have the stones to keep the two sources connected for longer than like 5 seconds. Another thing i noticed is the power led on my power supply kind of dims down a bit when its all connected.

Here's the specs:
 Powersupply is Sonyang S-150-24 switching power supply rated for 6.5 amps
 http://www.sonyang.net/en-pnei.asp?id=34
 I'm in the US so its running on 120 VAC 60Hz
 all wiring is 18 gauge
 DC output from supply measures 23.38 VDC and is connected to J12 on the immersion board, negative to pin 1 and positive to pin 3

After reading the immersion manual I've noticed that it mentions a linear supply. I'm hoping that thats my issue. I've got a giant, old variable power supply from an old bob's space racers game that I'm going to try and see if that fixes my problem

EDIT: yup...power supply was the issue. Badmouth any link for the model you have?