Intel Edison Announced - Will there be a bunch of Pico Arcades soon?

[nordemoniac]

Intel just announced their "Intel Edison", a 1998 computer packed in a plastic casing the size of a SD card.

Thoughts?

[SavannahLion]

Hard to say. If it follows the SD card pinout and counting those extra pads along the bottom, there isn't a whole hell of a lot to interface to. That means additional hardware in the form of Bluetooth or Wifi to get the IO needed.

I have no feelings for it really. Previous SD card form factor computers are just blow jobs. Take a look at the Electric Imp and all the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- you have to do to get it working. If the card is cheap and if current dev tools can be leveraged without burning too big a hole in the pocketbook, then yes. I see interesting applications for it.

[pbj]

Someone didn't read the press release.

Sounds pretty damn neat to me.

[SavannahLion]

Someone didn't read the press release.

Sounds pretty damn neat to me.

Let me translate...

How much I/O does this have? Enough for a thirteen button CP or just six? If not the user will have to resort to additional hardware, eg a  BT gamepad to get that functionality. Press release cites it uses the SoC as Galileo, cool but I don't see twenty plus pins on there.

A 1998 PC had room for video and audio.... needs I continue on this track?

If Intel keeps costs low, and promotes an easily accessible toolchain, I can see very interesting applications for this. But equivalent application as a 1998 era PC? No. Why even compare? It's 2014. It needs to stand in the ring with the other competitors.

[michelevit]

As a frugal builder, i'm probably going to just keep purchasing used pcs on Craigslist and just use those for mame cabs.
100 bucks gets me a complete desktop computer with monitor and speakers. 

[kahlid74]

If it uses Mame .27 or .8 or anything before .126 I believe.  The MAME guys would be better suited to comment on it but at .126 and above was where they started doing a lot of CPU additions.

I like the idea of Edison but I feel like Intel is late to the party.  Either way it will be interesting to see what comes to fruition out of this.  Lots of cool automation and robot projects I can see.

[Vigo]

Someone didn't read the press release.

Sounds pretty damn neat to me.

Let me translate...

How much I/O does this have? Enough for a thirteen button CP or just six? If not the user will have to resort to additional hardware, eg a  BT gamepad to get that functionality. Press release cites it uses the SoC as Galileo, cool but I don't see twenty plus pins on there.

It has a standard SD card pinout and what looks like a dozen GPIO pins. That would be enough to run multiple USB 3.0 channels.  Don't see the issue.

[SavannahLion]

Did you manage to find a good shot of the pads on the back then? I can see some but not enough to get a good count.

On the flip side. Running USB is still going to add bulk. Why use something the size of a quarter when you need to add enough hardware the size of a (rhetorical) brick to get your functionality? Go straight for the brick, get a Galileo, Raspi or Beaglebone.

[RandyT]

On the flip side. Running USB is still going to add bulk. Why use something the size of a quarter when you need to add enough hardware the size of a (rhetorical) brick to get your functionality? Go straight for the brick, get a Galileo, Raspi or Beaglebone.

I see it the same way.  It seems like a very niche device, aimed primarily at wearable devices (meh) and tiny robots.  I can't think of many other applications where form factor trumps function, other than handheld devices, and I'm not even sure what this would bring to that party, as it seems to be covered pretty well. 

[ark_ader]

I saw it at the Keynote.  I wasn't impressed. :yawn:

[pbj]

"iPhone?  Who wants that?  I'll stick with my Blackberry" - BYOAC

[Haze]

I wouldn't wish a 1998 computer on my worst enemy..

what's the deal with these tiny platforms and cabs anyway.. once it's inside the cab you can't see it anyway, so unless you're building the whole thing to scale, complete with 2mm high joysticks (which is about as absurd) then I don't see the point.

weak platforms are the *least* suitable emulation devices, and yet people here are obsessed with them.  great for robotics etc. tho as others have pointed out.

[RandyT]

"iPhone?  Who wants that?  I'll stick with my Quad-Core Android at half the cost and twice the voice quality" - BYOAC

Fixt.

[pbj]

weak platforms are the *least* suitable emulation devices, and yet people here are obsessed with them.  great for robotics etc. tho as others have pointed out.

We long for the days you could run Galaga on a 386.  Remember those?   

[dcninja]

edison? F DAT.

TESLA FTW.

that is all.

[DarakuTenshi]

As a frugal builder, i'm probably going to just keep purchasing used pcs on Craigslist and just use those for mame cabs.
100 bucks gets me a complete desktop computer with monitor and speakers.

I've not been so lucky in my area.

[MastarArcade]

Intel just announced their "Intel Edison", a 1998 computer packed in a plastic casing the size of a SD card.

Thoughts?

Things just keep getting smaller and smaller. 

Single Core, Single Thread, and runs @ 400MHz, I'd assume from a CPU performance perspective that it'd be roughly equivalent to a Pentium II back in 1998 (as someone previously highlighted).

For now, if I'm looking for small, I'll stick with an Intel NUC or related MiniPC (e.g. GigaByte BRIX) to stay simple, small, cheap,  and maintain performance.

[ark_ader]

It is a dual core processor, running two versions of linux.

 

Yep two different versions to enable the second core.  Saw the device in person today and took a pic and it is pretty impressive.  512mb but I will think it will come out of the gate at 1gb.  The engineer I was talking to suggested a high clock rate when shipping too.  Exactly the same size and thickness of a SDcard.  Price to be about $60 to OEMs.  You can run several in SDcard hubs and you can connect the pins on the reverse for custom applications.

I asked if this would run XP Embedded, and initially I was told no, but it was more wait and see.

[paigeoliver]

Forget Linux, will it run Windows 98.

[Grasshopper]

On the flip side. Running USB is still going to add bulk. Why use something the size of a quarter when you need to add enough hardware the size of a (rhetorical) brick to get your functionality? Go straight for the brick, get a Galileo, Raspi or Beaglebone.

Agreed. I feel the same way about the Android TV boxes you can buy these days that are about the same size as a USB memory stick. Whilst I admire the technology, I can't see any real benefit to making them that small. To use one you need a PSU, remote control and/or keyboard/mouse, several cables, and possibly a separate USB hub with its own power supply. By the time you take all of those (mostly obligatory) extras into account, the device is no longer portable in any real sense. So you may as well spend just a tiny bit more, and have the SOC housed in a slightly bigger box with a full complement of ports.

[ark_ader]

On the flip side. Running USB is still going to add bulk. Why use something the size of a quarter when you need to add enough hardware the size of a (rhetorical) brick to get your functionality? Go straight for the brick, get a Galileo, Raspi or Beaglebone.

Agreed. I feel the same way about the Android TV boxes you can buy these days that are about the same size as a USB memory stick. Whilst I admire the technology, I can't see any real benefit to making them that small. To use one you need a PSU, remote control and/or keyboard/mouse, several cables, and possibly a separate USB hub with its own power supply. By the time you take all of those (mostly obligatory) extras into account, the device is no longer portable in any real sense. So you may as well spend just a tiny bit more, and have the SOC housed in a slightly bigger box with a full complement of ports.

Most of these Google TV dongles are rooted from day one.  So you get droidmote and remote control it via your android phone or tablet.  Most TV sets have a USB socket for service or pen drives.  This allows suitable power for these units.  With the ability to run Linux without any special effort, these devices can be truly portable as you can run them headless.  Actually I ran an experiment to see if I could use these dongles as rdp clients.  They worked flawlessly.  I can send them out to my remote offices and even the simplest nitwit can install them.  You would be surprised how many cheap monitors come with hdmi out of the box.

link for info

[SavannahLion]

You use Droidmote? I was going to use it in my arcade cab as part of a diagnostic tool but the broken English made it a little difficult to understand if it really fit the bill or not.

[MastarArcade]

It is a dual core processor, running two versions of linux.

 

Yep two different versions to enable the second core.  Saw the device in person today and took a pic and it is pretty impressive.  512mb but I will think it will come out of the gate at 1gb.  The engineer I was talking to suggested a high clock rate when shipping too.  Exactly the same size and thickness of a SDcard.  Price to be about $60 to OEMs.  You can run several in SDcard hubs and you can connect the pins on the reverse for custom applications.

I asked if this would run XP Embedded, and initially I was told no, but it was more wait and see.

It looks like the 9 SD electrical signals were present. Any insight in to the function of those?

$60 dosen't sound half bad, but I'm a bit pessimistic whether a Quark chipset in the SD form factor would be valuable for a "PC" replacement. The lack of video is a bit of a problem to overcome.

Looking at the Galileo dev board (which my be interesting to play with) with that same Quark chipset, its got a miniPCIe slot where you could connect up a VGA controller, but the additional cost of that starts going to offset the function. An alternative USB VGA controller may be cheaper, but lack performance.

[danny_galaga]

Forget Linux, will it run Windows 98.

Word. Why a 1998 computer if it can't run it's namesake OS...

[keilmillerjr]

Forget Linux, will it run Windows 98.

Why in the hell would you want to run a 15 year old operating system?! I don't understand winblows people, where it's cool to keep running an older version of everything. 

Linux is free, usually uses s h i t for resources (quick), and you don't have to worry about tons of viruses like with winblows.

[SavannahLion]

I don't understand the need for people to s p a c e their letters out to bypass the filter. Just type ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and let the filter do its job. You can adjust the filter for your personal tastes while still complying with Saints wishes.

[ark_ader]

Forget Linux, will it run Windows 98.

Why in the hell would you want to run a 15 year old operating system?! I don't understand winblows people, where it's cool to keep running an older version of everything. 

Linux is free, usually uses s h i t for resources (quick), and you don't have to worry about tons of viruses like with winblows.

This is due to the mentality of the gaming/classic arcade and noob community.  Linux used to be difficult to get working, say 15 years ago (slackware in particular) and that has been imprinted in their tiny minds ever since.  All they want to do is play mame in their cabinets, and windows serves this purpose.  The rest of the world knows the benefits that Linux brings, especially in the client/server realm and VM industry.  I agree windows as a client operating system has its merits, and we use it for the status quo.

Trying to change someones habit of a lifetime is a losing battle.  I totally agree that Linux too powerful for the plebs, and is reserved only for those professionals capable of wielding its power, even though we sometimes have to yield to windows in order to keep the plebs happy. 

[danny_galaga]

Linux is still a pain for MAME in my opinion. For people like Paige and I, we aren't interested in running NFL Blitz eleventy OMG!1!!11!. We just want a simple drop in OS (and then you can chose win98 or DOS), and if you are even more 'challenged' like I am  , then MAME32 running on win98 is as simple as it gets. Then we can have at it on Galaga and Pacman to our hearts content. For people who DO want to run NFL Blitz eleventy OMG!1!!11!, when was the last time the Linux version of MAME was updated? If it's so great, and people who like Linux tend to be the types that fool around with code, why isn't it up to date? What's the point if it's not going to be the latest and greatest?

I'm not knocking Linux, even I was able to get it running via Ubuntu for my PC. But the application for MAME on LINUX seems to be this - older versions of MAME that people like to potter around with for hours/days. The end result of which will look and run exactly the same as if it were on NOT-LINUX.

If I could have new hardware that ran win98 properly, I'd be all over it. My cab now runs XP only because the old hardware died maybe 3 years ago and the new hardware that replaced it is too modern to bother with win98. Too many things just won't work. And actually, for me, XP isn't working 100% either. But my old copy of Win98 would be fine on the right hardware (no dodgy cracks or tiny this, or verify that. Win98 kinda predates a lot of that malarky). I know you would point out that with Linux, being open-source you don't have all that hassle either. But win98 on the right era machine would win hands down for simplicity.

And it IS cool to run older versions of everything! Why on earth would you be on this forum if you didn't like old things? It would be really cool to see someones 15 year old MAME cab that is still running the hardware from that time, hacked keyboard and all! I could counter by saying why is it cool to have the latest and greatest all the time?

I think it's a little snobbish to look down on people who don't want to use Linux, especially since maybe they have other skills a Linux Champion might not. This isn't a forum of just coders. Some people have other skills/interests. But obviously a common denominator is OLD arcade machines, and the emulation thereof. I am rather pleased with how my cab turned out for instance. It even won a MAMEY, even though *GASP* it doesn't run Linux with a version of MAME I compiled completely from scratch 

I forgot to address the virus aspect. There is none! If you build a simple MAME cab to play 80's arcade games on. Why on earth would it need to be connected to teh innerwebz?

Someone makes a Linux version of MAME as simple to set up as the MAME32 V78 I am now using (and yes, I have tried a couple of flavours of Linux MAME on Ubuntu and it was crap), and to run on a idiot friendly OS like Ubuntu, I'll use that. So long as Mala works in Linux too...

[ark_ader]

As ever Danny you make a very good point.  Windows 98 just works, especially those with pre 2000 computers with hacked keyboards.  The problem with Linux is the ever enlarging collection of experiences we have with the OS than say windows, that mame is just another application to run.

Windows dumbs down the computing experience.  Most of us is past playing games to be more productive at designing games or emulators.  You do not get that sense of power working on a windows box.  The world is finally catching up to the Linux phenomena, and it is too late.  Mame is just another emulator of several, stored on a VM.

I managed to get windows 98se to run OK on my main machine.  Install it on a VM, then run the VHD with plop. Make sure you install the non-offical service pack to get around the memory issue.  Try it! 

[Grasshopper]

If the $60 figure is correct (which to be honest I doubt) then it sounds ludicrously overpriced to me. On paper, this device appears to be about the same speed as the Raspberry Pi, which as least has a powerful GPU to compensate for its slow processor. And the RPi itself is beginning to look very underpowered/overpriced compared to the newer SOCs coming out of China.

Also, bear in mind it's $60 for OEMs so it will be significantly more expensive for consumers. You can buy a similarly powered RPI and a much faster BBB for about $30. And the Android Media players from China are ever better value.

Frankly, Intel should be doing a lot better than this. They've got a vast amount of cash to spend on R&D, and their fabrication technology is the best in the industry. However, when it comes to mobile technology they're not even in the game.

I think part of the problem is their unwillingness to give up on the antiquated X86 instruction set. I mean it was hardly state of the art in the early 80s. The only reason to stick with X86 technology is Windows compatibility. And the only versions of Windows that matter (the desktop versions) won't run on mobile devices.

I suppose, in theory, you could get hold of an old Windows 98 licence and run that OS on this device. But in practice, you'll have practically zero chance of finding Win 98 compatible drivers, and M$ is certainly not going to help you out.

A better option might be Android, which is of course (sort of) Linux but more user friendly. There are already several versions of MAME for android, and from what I've been reading they're pretty decent.

[Haze]

If the $60 figure is correct (which to be honest I doubt) then it sounds ludicrously overpriced to me. On paper, this device appears to be about the same speed as the Raspberry Pi, which as least has a powerful GPU to compensate for its slow processor. And the RPi itself is beginning to look very underpowered/overpriced compared to the newer SOCs coming out of China.

You're paying for the size...

which like I've already pointed out really is the least of your priorities when doing anything emulation related.

[ark_ader]

If the $60 figure is correct (which to be honest I doubt) then it sounds ludicrously overpriced to me. On paper, this device appears to be about the same speed as the Raspberry Pi, which as least has a powerful GPU to compensate for its slow processor. And the RPi itself is beginning to look very underpowered/overpriced compared to the newer SOCs coming out of China.

You're paying for the size...

which like I've already pointed out really is the least of your priorities when doing anything emulation related.

Exactly.  The Intel Edison is for wearable devices.

[Grasshopper]

If the $60 figure is correct (which to be honest I doubt) then it sounds ludicrously overpriced to me. On paper, this device appears to be about the same speed as the Raspberry Pi, which as least has a powerful GPU to compensate for its slow processor. And the RPi itself is beginning to look very underpowered/overpriced compared to the newer SOCs coming out of China.

You're paying for the size...

which like I've already pointed out really is the least of your priorities when doing anything emulation related.

I disagree. If you remove the ports from an Android TV Box (or RPi/BBB) you're left with a chip that is no bigger than Intel's device.

I also disagree with your second point. You don't seem to get the fact that not everyone has the space, time, money, or inclination to build a full size cab.

Sure, a PC is the best option for a cab. No argument there. But if you just want to build a small Jakks Pacific style joystick so you can occasionally play games on your TV, then a hacked Android TV Box (or equivalent) makes a lot of sense.

[pbj]

All of you bellyaching that someone is already making something similar on his workbench in his garage are missing the point.

What Intel has that Raspberry Pi doesn't is money, influence, and market penetration.  We might actually see something come out of this besides another Galaga in an Altoids can.

 

[RandyT]

What Intel has that Raspberry Pi doesn't is money, influence, and market penetration.

They had all of that when they hatched the Celeron too.  As we apparently don't see the benefit of this particular device, perhaps you could let us in on what you see as some of the new innovations that this makes possible?  As indicated by others, strip all of the peripheral hardware out of a quad-core cell phone, leaving just what the Intel device features, and consider whether the result would be larger, slower, or more costly.  I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it wouldn't.  So what's left?  An x86 instruction set?

It's an interesting device, which certainly demonstrates to the "common folk" how far processing power relative to size has come (which is likely why they chose the well-known SD card footprint).  But that exercise even seems a bit redundant, as most are already carrying around examples in their pockets.

Considering that Intel is under-represented in the public psyche when it comes to very small computing devices, and that it's probably a market they wish to penetrate at some point, my take is that this is mostly an exercise in marketing.  I.e.;

[pbj]

What, you mean like claims $20,000 was invested in perfecting joysticks?   

[RandyT]

What, you mean like claims $20,000 was invested in perfecting joysticks?   

Not sure where that came from, but if you are referring to GGG's investment in the new button molds and custom switches, I can assure you that the number I gave was accurate.  Big money for a small company like ours, but the costs of doing something like the Edison would be a mere pittance to a company like Intel. 

Still waiting for the reasons why you think this is a ground-breaking development

[Vigo]

I thought the point is you can have an entire computer as plug and play in what would be the same form factor as an SD slot. It introduces the concept of a portable computer. If you have X portable device, You snap in a computer for it. When your device is too slow for the current standards, you spend $50 for the newer, model and snap it right in. You can upgrade your device in 5 seconds flat. That's pretty groundbreaking. Fast forward a few years, and all our devices could in essence be just shells, and we pop whatever computer we want right into any device.

[pbj]

I thought the point is you can have an entire computer as plug and play in what would be the same form factor as an SD slot. It introduces the concept of a portable computer. If you have X portable device, You snap in a computer for it. When your device is too slow for the current standards, you spend $50 for the newer, model and snap it right in. You can upgrade your device in 5 seconds flat. That's pretty groundbreaking. Fast forward a few years, and all our devices could in essence be just shells, and we pop whatever computer we want right into any device.

Thanks for typing that out.  I had thought it was so self evident it didn't need explained.

 

[ark_ader]

I thought the point is you can have an entire computer as plug and play in what would be the same form factor as an SD slot. It introduces the concept of a portable computer. If you have X portable device, You snap in a computer for it. When your device is too slow for the current standards, you spend $50 for the newer, model and snap it right in. You can upgrade your device in 5 seconds flat. That's pretty groundbreaking. Fast forward a few years, and all our devices could in essence be just shells, and we pop whatever computer we want right into any device.

Thanks for typing that out.  I had thought it was so self evident it didn't need explained.

 

Exactly.  We have come to the point where swappable CPUs are the only way forward. I'm looking forward to the days when we troll through these old posts in 10 years time thinking how huge that SD Edison card was as it will be a 20 core Edison on a MicroSD.

Especially in my field of study of corneal reflections, where the more computing power in miniature form is critical.

[RandyT]

I thought the point is you can have an entire computer as plug and play in what would be the same form factor as an SD slot. It introduces the concept of a portable computer. If you have X portable device, You snap in a computer for it. When your device is too slow for the current standards, you spend $50 for the newer, model and snap it right in. You can upgrade your device in 5 seconds flat. That's pretty groundbreaking. Fast forward a few years, and all our devices could in essence be just shells, and we pop whatever computer we want right into any device.

That's an interesting concept, but it's exactly what happens in a much larger scale with a desktop PC.  When was the last time it took you 5 seconds to be up and running when you swapped out your PC motherboard?  Such a system would require absolute standardization between processor modules and peripheral devices, or be relegated to canned configurations as part of a large rollout.  And when the processing power goes beyond the pipeline technology of the parts interfacing these modules to their periphery, you are back at square one.  Even Intel didn't make such grandiose projected uses, rather focusing on "wearable" devices.

The concept you are talking about is possible, albeit ultimately self-limiting, but this device isn't going to get you there any more than any other "plug-in" stand alone processor module.

Earlier ark stated that the device had two cores, which each needed an independent version of Linux to utilize.  The reason for this seems more clear now (from the release);

"Krzanich stated that Intel is the first microprocessor company to support devices that combine the best of Windows* and Android* operating systems in a single device."

This makes it sound like each was intended for a different OS.

[SavannahLion]

As long as there are companies like Apple it would take an act of law to force such a standard.

I recall this concept dating back to the eighties so I can see both good and bad sides to it.

[ark_ader]

As long as there are companies like Apple it would take an act of law to force such a standard.

I recall this concept dating back to the eighties so I can see both good and bad sides to it.

The concept in the eighties was impossible to come to fruition due to the fragmented suppliers of PC components.  Now when component prices are at their lowest, and the suppliers of PC components are in separate camps, the possibilities are now available for standardization of PC architecture.  We will still have 4 or 5 players in the market place, but not the 70+ that we had, in the early days. 

[SavannahLion]

As long as there are companies like Apple it would take an act of law to force such a standard.

I recall this concept dating back to the eighties so I can see both good and bad sides to it.

The concept in the eighties was impossible to come to fruition due to the fragmented suppliers of PC components.  Now when component prices are at their lowest, and the suppliers of PC components are in separate camps, the possibilities are now available for standardization of PC architecture.  We will still have 4 or 5 players in the market place, but not the 70+ that we had, in the early days.

Those four or five players and or camps still make the difference. Take a look at Apple when they signed the EPS agreement. They still refused compliance with a voluntary standard and it took a couple of countries to pass laws to beat them into submission. Of that we still have yet to see the fruit from Apple.

Like I said. There are both good and bad with that idea. One can argue both sides of the coin but IMHO there isn't much point. It's an ongoing process dating back to the 80's and, quite honestly, I don't see the Edison as anything revolutionary on that path. I'm not even sure if I would consider it as an evolutionary improvement towards that goal. 

Just keep moving forward. Someone will get it right.

Don't get me wrong (someone certainly will) I'm not knocking the Edison nor am I knocking the concepts discussed. What I am knocking is the application of the Edison to those concepts. Wrong tool wrong application.