Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up --- Bug Reports --- Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay  (Read 10943 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
I know we have discussed the legality of ROMs before, and the consensus is that, yes it's illegal to download ROMs without owning the original game and many of us know the ramifications of downloading the ROMS of which we have no legal claim to and many of us here take that risk.

Yet we continue to see it pop up on ebay for sale. And ebay says it's alright because they have included a disclaimer:

Quote
This infomation is included as per ebay policies.

All the content contained within the collection are freely available from the internet.  However, downloading over 65GB of data is impossible for some people who have 10GB download limits or slow speeds. The collection you purchase is given to you as is, and you agree that you are purchasing the collection as a service to you.  You also agree that any payment made by you is to voluntary meaning that you are re-imbursing the costs involved in preparing your collection e.g, time, electricity, wear and tear, packaging and other services.

NO SUPPORT IS OFFERED - You are buying this collection because you searched for it on ebay, and you know what it is your getting for your money.  No infomation will be given on how to build, configure or optimize and of the content.

So?! It's still illegal to sell. Those that take the time to report these listings are wasting their time cause ebay looks that the listing, says "yep there is a disclaimer" and allow it to continue.

I suppose there is lot's of illegal things available for purchase on ebay... as long as fleabay get's their cut of the sale, they couldn't give 2 shits. Money laundering, illegal items, counterfeit items, (and if you search sneakily enough) guns. Hell, if you look through ebays prohibited items list, 98% of the items on that list, right there, can be bought on ebay right now.

SMH

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2013, 04:46:59 pm »
I've tried to have this conversation with people and was flamed for it.  People say that these burners offer a valuable service.  To which I answer  "I don't care". 

To put it in another context, let's say I have somebody sell me a digital copy of The Avengers bluray burnt to a disc ... giving the excuse that I'm not technically competent enough to burn it and/or my internet connection is too slow to download a digital copy.  So?  You just bought a bootleg copy of The Avengers!

I mean if people want to pay for stolen stuff that's their business, but these sorts of auctions and services could potentially get the mame team in hot water meaning no emulators or roms for anyone. 

DillonFoulds

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 605
  • Last login:August 27, 2019, 05:04:44 am
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 06:01:27 pm »
ROM sales are hard to justify. If a person has legal rights to own copies of the ROMs, then they legally must have physical PCB copies of the ROMs too, should they not?

If you're downloading a full set of SNES ROMs, then by that same logic you should have a full SNES cartridge set, correct?

The only people I've heard of that have near that scale of a collection are Byuu (in the case of SNES) and The Angry Video Game Nerd (in the case of NES). Both of thee people know enough about the technology and (especially in the case of byuu) have the technology or the resources already to dump copies of all their games on their own.

spoot

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 688
  • Last login:June 15, 2015, 10:36:18 am
  • Destroyer of electronics
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2013, 06:24:15 pm »
So, when I lose it and punch people in the face at work.  I simply state I was paid and it was a service.  I'll get off scott free!   :D

JDFan

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Last login:Yesterday at 11:50:03 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 06:26:17 pm »
I just wish there were more legal options for obtaining the roms for use -- I'd much rather pay the developer\owner of the content a few $'s and support them rather than rely on some torrent put together by who knows or purchase from someone on EBAY, but unfortunately the game developers don't seem to acknowledge that the emulators even exist, rather than offering a means of legally obtaining their content.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 06:58:34 pm »
I get what you are saying there.  A lot of the problem lies in the fact that these companies are now defunct.  Take midway.... gone.... now the WB owns all of the properties to Midway, but let's be real... they bought the company pretty much exclusively for NR Studios and Mortal Kombat (sales from MK9 single-handedly paid for the entire Midway acquisition).  So they own them, but they really don't have any intention of ever releasing them. 

Companies that are still doing well actually do release roms regularly in the form of collections for the pc and game consoles. Namco releases something at least once a year and Capcom is pretty good about this as well. 

Nintendo's virtual console service pretty much takes care of all retro console roms... save the really rare or legally tricky ones.  Of course if you are willing to pay 8 bucks for a NES rom when most NES carts only cost 3 or 4 bucks... knock yourself out.  ;)

Anyway I'm rambling... my point was that a lot of roms are in legal limbo.... they are owned by a company that no longer releases games or are owned by a company that only does cell phone games ect..... 

There have been services in the past, but they all fell through, mostly because they seemed to think that these roms were made of gold or something.  If roms were like iTunes songs (60 cents to 2 bucks a pop) whoever created a service would have a gold mine on their hands.... assuming they go the support of the mame team.   

JDFan

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Last login:Yesterday at 11:50:03 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 10:22:20 pm »
Exactly --- If a company was able to set up an I-tunes like service with the ROMS for a decent price (either as single downloads or X number for a fee) and was able to keep things current with the releases of MAME it would make things better for everyone including those that want to build systems for sale.

And the situations like Midway are probably what contributes to EBAY allowing the ROM set sales to be listed since WB probably never sends out C&D letters to remove the content from sale, since they may not even realize it is their content that is being sold.

g_block247

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
  • Last login:March 29, 2016, 03:46:56 pm
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 10:51:28 pm »
ROM sales are hard to justify. If a person has legal rights to own copies of the ROMs, then they legally must have physical PCB copies of the ROMs too, should they not?

If you're downloading a full set of SNES ROMs, then by that same logic you should have a full SNES cartridge set, correct?

The only people I've heard of that have near that scale of a collection are Byuu (in the case of SNES) and The Angry Video Game Nerd (in the case of NES). Both of thee people know enough about the technology and (especially in the case of byuu) have the technology or the resources already to dump copies of all their games on their own.

(Members who have a complete - w/ Stadium Events or near complete - w/o Stadium Events)
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=27787
29 members with a full licensed set AND Stadium Events
32 members with a full licensed set minus Stadium Events

So NES isn't that uncommon

SNES there's only (now) two members of that forum that have a complete set (Wrldstrman started selling his off)

But I get what you're saying. I remember years ago buying a MAME rom set from a burner off a private site (same with NES and SNES) before I knew all about and where to find the stuff on the internet. It's a very grey area (and yes technically illegal on the game distribution side of things) but it's their @$$ in a sling if they get busted for it...

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 12:44:21 am »
Just for the record, I think in regards to NES collections, it's more like who would want a full set, not who has one.  Do I love Nintendo?  Sure!  Do I love the NES?  Yup!  Do I want to have to acquire all 800+ nes roms even though probably only about 100 of them are worth playing? Not really. 

The same goes for a lot of consoles really... I mean if you want to go the Pokémon route and "catch 'em all" I guess that's something to do... but in terms of collecting to play them... nah. 

kahlid74

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Last login:November 09, 2019, 10:06:23 pm
  • Gaming for a better future!
    • GamersAnon
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 07:40:10 am »
I'm of the same mindset as others, it's illegal period.  I really wish there was another way to acquire them legally but no matter how you sugar coat the wording that offering is no good.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8619
  • Last login:Yesterday at 06:43:30 pm
  • ...
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2013, 09:04:24 am »
Sell collections of movies or MP3s that are "freely available from the internet" and see how far you get.

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 11:14:37 am »
Sell collections of movies or MP3s that are "freely available from the internet" and see how far you get.

exactly.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 05:30:38 pm »
I kind of worry about these services like emumovies and ect as well.  I know they are pretty awesome and it's a ton of work to gather that stuff (I did the marquee packs for a short time back in the day) but you are essentially selling copyrighted images.  There is such a thing as free use when it comes to images so it's a little more gray, but it still worries me. 

One of the reasons why I've never charged for my stuff btw.... that and I doubt many people would pay for it.  ;)

ChadTower

  • Chief Kicker - Nobody's perfect, including me. Fantastic body.
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38216
  • Last login:January 20, 2020, 10:27:05 am
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 01:34:21 pm »
ROM sales are hard to justify. If a person has legal rights to own copies of the ROMs, then they legally must have physical PCB copies of the ROMs too, should they not?


No, not necessarily.  The license to use a piece of software is not always tied to the physical media that contains a copy.  A lot of times in the consumer space it is implied but even there you can find examples of a license being independent of the media.  Windows is an easy example.  The fact that a person has an install disc does not mean they have a valid license key.  The exact same thing could be said of arcade PCBs.  It generally isn't because the games were sold as appliances without license to modify but I'm betting a lot of modern arcade games, especially the ones running on off the shelf PC hardware, do have an license scheme independent of the hardware.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 09:56:00 pm »
Yeah it's a messed up, outdated legal system that screws us over on that. 

Software, even if it's designed to only run on one very specific device, is considered intellectual property, like a song or a story ect... and therefore the software that comes with your hardware isn't something you own.... you own the hardware and the software is independent of that, often giving you a license to run it on that particular hardware unit you bought. 

Imho  this should really be done on a case by case basis and shouldn't be that clear cut.  I mean I can buy a lawnmower with proprietary components, and I have the legal right to strip that engine apart and use it to fix up another mower.  Heck you have the legal right to copy one of those parts if it breaks as well, so long as you don't sell the parts themselves.  So if my pacman pcb dies, why don't I have a legal right to take a part of it (in this case the rom) and use it to build a mame cab?  I certainly get that it would be harder to track and enforce as software exists in the ether but I don't see how that's the consumer's problem. 

It seems like the consumers rights are stomped on to make it more convenient for the businesses to make money.   

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 10:55:45 pm »
that's what it really comes down to. money.

if you have your hand in their cookie jar, they will bring down the hammer on you.

koolmoecraig

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1433
  • Last login:April 05, 2014, 07:07:20 pm
    • My Intervention
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2013, 04:06:28 pm »
I've tried to have this conversation with people and was flamed for it.  People say that these burners offer a valuable service.  To which I answer  "I don't care". 

To put it in another context, let's say I have somebody sell me a digital copy of The Avengers bluray burnt to a disc ... giving the excuse that I'm not technically competent enough to burn it and/or my internet connection is too slow to download a digital copy.  So?  You just bought a bootleg copy of The Avengers!

I mean if people want to pay for stolen stuff that's their business, but these sorts of auctions and services could potentially get the mame team in hot water meaning no emulators or roms for anyone.

So it's OK to steal them as long as you aren't paying anyone to do it?

"potentially get the mame team in hot water meaning no emulators or roms for anyone".  < Laughable.

ChadTower

  • Chief Kicker - Nobody's perfect, including me. Fantastic body.
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38216
  • Last login:January 20, 2020, 10:27:05 am
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2013, 04:41:20 pm »
So it's OK to steal them as long as you aren't paying anyone to do it?


He didn't say that or anything even resembling that.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 06:41:33 pm »
Exactly, it's a moral issue, not a legal one.  What we do is most assuredly illegal. 

It is NOT laughable that the mame team could get in trouble by this and have development halted. 

Perhaps you don't know your emulation history or something but Dave Foley's mess got the mame team in hot water, even though they had absolutely nothing to do with his exploits... nothing came out of it, but still.  Also they have gotten various cease and desist orders over the years, having to pull certain games... many of them were rather tame, but again.... legal issues.  If you think that game manufacturers aren't paying attention to what goes on it mame, think again.   

Even though napster had absolutely nothing to do with music piracy directly, it was shut down back in the day.  The only difference between the game industry and the music industry is currently most game developers don't see rom piracy of old stuff as much of a threat.  The main reason for this is that it's decidedly an underground affair.  Ebay auctions and other high profile piracy are a great danger to the hobby, because it gives it unneeded exposure.   

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3957
  • Last login:April 16, 2017, 01:50:02 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2013, 10:57:10 pm »
Comparing Napster to Emulation is Idiotic.

 People whom create emulators can not get in trouble via someone selling data they do not own.

 Thats like suing someone who made a fork, because someone else was using it to eat other peoples food.

  If the game companies had a problem with emulation, mame would have been put to bed AGES ago.

 Drawing  Nazi-Snitch  attention to such a thing however, is much more Dangerous that the actual wrong doing.

 Its pure IDIOCY  to go after some kid selling ancient bootlegged material that can be found by many, for free anyways.. especially since the people buying it probably wouldnt pay for more than a few dollars for it, IF they had the money to spare.

 Not only all that... but, you couldnt stop emulation if you wanted to.   Theres too much material already out there.
They still cant stop NEW music and NEW movie piracy.. and those are far more critical and worth chasing than old games that have already earned their money.

 The typical responses like this, are from Extremists personalities.  People who see the world in Black and White.  People who will be your best friend one day.. then serve you up to the Nazi brigade the next.

 I truly feel sorry for people like you.  You have the most warped & unrealistic perspectives..  cant maintain personal relationships, cant enjoy life properly... are Always in fear, anxiety, and emotional distress.
 


yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19329
  • Last login:Today at 01:26:07 am
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2013, 12:35:42 am »
Wow, only 20 posts before Nazis made their first appearance.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2013, 09:45:54 am »
welp, that was a good run.

Quote
Comparing Napster to Emulation is Idiotic.

why is that? the exact same thing could happen to the mamedev if the games companies decided to come down on them.

Quote
People whom create emulators can not get in trouble via someone selling data they do not own.

shure they could, they are being enablers.

Quote
Thats like suing someone who made a fork, because someone else was using it to eat other peoples food.

now THAT is idiotic. forks are public domain. go patent the fork and then we will talk.

Quote
  If the game companies had a problem with emulation, mame would have been put to bed AGES ago.

i believe they chose to fight from the other end, their intellectual property.

Quote
Drawing  Nazi-Snitch  attention to such a thing however, is much more Dangerous that the actual wrong doing.

is this not why we are discussing this here and now? in a forum away from the hot bed?

Quote
its pure IDIOCY  to go after some kid selling ancient bootlegged material that can be found by many, for free anyways.. especially since the people buying it probably wouldnt pay for more than a few dollars for it, IF they had the money to spare.

while i agree the area is gray surrounding ROMS, one thing is certain... Selling someone else's IP for profit is illegal.

Quote
Not only all that... but, you couldnt stop emulation if you wanted to.   Theres too much material already out there.

Streisand effect.

Quote
They still cant stop NEW music and NEW movie piracy.. and those are far more critical and worth chasing than old games that have already earned their money.

Streisand effect again. everybody knows the music and movie companies are money hungry so-and-so's.

Quote
The typical responses like this, are from Extremists personalities.  People who see the world in Black and White.  People who will be your best friend one day.. then serve you up to the Nazi brigade the next.

So what? you want things gray? the reason the copyright law is the way it is, is because the law is GRAY and NOT black and white.

Quote
I truly feel sorry for people like you.  You have the most warped & unrealistic perspectives..  cant maintain personal relationships, cant enjoy life properly... are Always in fear, anxiety, and emotional distress.

no, don't bother. I'm just fine the way I am.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6164
  • Last login:Yesterday at 05:51:33 pm
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2013, 10:06:44 am »
lilshawn came to the party locked and loaded.   :cheers:

And as far as X2 calling HC a Nazi....again......am I missing some fun new game where we take anything he says and draw a nazi tie to it? I think I'll give it a go.

HC burns CD's, the Nazis burned books. Coincidence? I think not!  :o

or

Rumor has it, Howard plays Wolfenstein, but loses on purpose.

or

There is a reason HC loves Mortal Kombat. Ever since that face-melting incident from when the fuhrer asked him to open that ark, he has been able to relate to Scorpion.

Dawgz Rule

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 717
  • Last login:Yesterday at 06:25:11 am
  • The more people I meet, the more I like my dogs
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2013, 10:15:05 am »
Quote
I truly feel sorry for people like you.  You have the most warped & unrealistic perspectives..  cant maintain personal relationships, cant enjoy life properly... are Always in fear, anxiety, and emotional distress.

WTF just happened???  Dude, chill out.  This is an arcade forum (in case you didn't know it).  OMFG. :banghead:

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7772
  • Last login:August 16, 2019, 09:30:14 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2013, 10:57:59 am »
Nice post, X.

Still maintaining that tenuous grip on reality, I see.

 :blackbelt
Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18169
  • Last login:Today at 01:03:39 am
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2013, 07:24:09 pm »
Did I miss something?

*reads*

Guess not.... I voiced an opinion others don't agree with about because they don't have a valid argument they go on to attack my personal character, because, yet again, they have no valid counter-response.  Carry on. 

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2013, 08:32:45 pm »
Everything you do these days is illegal one way or another. there is just varying degrees of illegality.

yes downloading copies of roms is usually illegal. (specific circumstances can make it legal)

distributing copies is more illegal.

making a profit from someone elses IP is SUPER illegal.

amendonz

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 503
  • Last login:December 02, 2017, 04:33:57 pm
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2013, 08:58:12 pm »
Way to talk about fight club guys...

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2013, 09:08:13 pm »
Selling ROMS is douchey. it's people who do stuff like that who give it a bad name.


Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3957
  • Last login:April 16, 2017, 01:50:02 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2013, 08:50:34 pm »
Quote
So what? you want things gray? the reason the copyright law is the way it is, is because the law is GRAY and NOT black and white.

 The world, and the UNIVERSE, is filled with more than just Black, White, and Gray.

 LAWS are not always JUST.   Laws have often been made to do more damage than good...  such as the case where Slavery was LEGAL.    With very little digging, one could find numerous laws which protect crooked people, corporations, and the stock holders whom ultimately pulled all the puppet strings of said corporation, peoples, etc.

 There are also cases where Laws should be made to protect the little guy... such as the newly discovered Pop & Rock Stars, who literally made no money off all their Years of blood, sweat, and tears... all the while being Forced to do ans say things, they didnt want to do and say,  .. because of the lawyer speak, fine print,  & 'twisted interpretive meaning' contracts.

 
     Everyone knows, weather you sell a rom.. or just download it,  you are breaking a law.
 In your black and white viewpoints, Im surprised you are even trying to create levels of Just-Ness over the other.
 

 Emulators are not Enablers.  They are software creations, which do not even function, without copyright material.

 Thats like making Kentucky Fried Chicken, but leaving out the Chicken.   Just because you reverse engineered the secrets... doesnt mean squat.   Your not selling the Recipe.   Nor are you selling the fully cooked chicken.   In fact, your not even giving out the popular recipe either..   As this is one of the Earlier past versions.   (IE old games vs new)

 Those whom TRY to sell the Chicken, will be subjected to prosecution by the company.   
To those who try to sell the Recipe,  'might'   also be able to be prosecuted.    However...  when such a secret is blown,  theres nothing you can do... so why even bother?

 You would find KFC chicken clones all over the market in an instant... and the taste will be so identical, that two people couldnt tell them apart.   As well as people possibly cooking the stuff themselves... and possibly selling it via catering, parties, and door to door deals.

 This has happened to many products over time.   Theres usually a lead grace period.. but by the time the company starts getting off the ground, its usually expired.   All your efforts to make something unique... stolen by larger companies with deep pockets... and protected by the Laws.

 OR..  you cant even make the simplest of things because one of the rich elite has bought / created a BS patent that dealing with programs input methods & interaction with the net, keyboard, mouse, lan, etc... so that any time you need the program to interact with the person... you have to pay an ungodly, & unjustly steep... usage license fee.  A fee that is witheld from partener companies / friends / backdoor megadeals / puppet string deals  ...etc


lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2013, 10:16:49 pm »
The world, and the UNIVERSE, is filled with more than just Black, White, and Gray.

yup. rainbow. yeah. i get it.

LAWS are not always JUST.   Laws have often been made to do more damage than good...  such as the case where Slavery was LEGAL.

nope, didn't say they were, either. Nobody said they were absolute either.

With very little digging, one could find numerous laws which protect crooked people, corporations, and the stock holders whom ultimately pulled all the puppet strings of said corporation, peoples, etc.

He who holds the gold, makes the rules.

There are also cases where Laws should be made to protect the little guy... such as the newly discovered Pop & Rock Stars, who literally made no money off all their Years of blood, sweat, and tears... all the while being Forced to do ans say things, they didnt want to do and say,  .. because of the lawyer speak, fine print,  & 'twisted interpretive meaning' contracts.

they signed those contracts, they agreed to them, they knew what they were getting into. if there was an issue, they shouldn't have signed and shouldn't have agreed to them. Artists DON'T make money on records (accounting for about 20% of their total income)...they make their money on concerts. The RECORD COMPANIES make the money from record sales. the artist usually receives a contract deal stipend and a tiny fraction of the sales. Let's not discuss record/movie companies, they are just as guilty of offences as everyone they claim is.


Everyone knows, weather you sell a rom.. or just download it,  you are breaking a law.

weather - The state of the atmosphere at a place and time as regards heat, cloudiness, dryness, sunshine, wind, rain, etc.
whether - Expressing a doubt or choice between alternatives.

That aside, downloading a ROM (or CD or DVD or PROGRAM) is absolutely LEGAL, provided you own the original work. "UPLOADING" (by definition of the law) is illegal. it's one of these legal gray areas that we are talking about. That is the issue here, yes it's legal because law but it's not because copyright, but is because something else.

i suppose one could stretch the law so far as to say DISTRIBUTING is legal if you could find a way to determine with absolute certainty that the person downloading the work from you had an original of said work.

In your black and white viewpoints, Im surprised you are even trying to create levels of Just-Ness over the other.

You can't have gray in law, it must be black and white. This is why ridiculous lawsuits happen. you ever seen "Liar, Liar"? this is perfectly represented by the following: "Several years ago a friend of mine had a burglar on her roof, a burglar. He fell through the kitchen skylight, landed on a cutting board, on a butcher's knife, cutting his leg. The burglar sued my friend, he sued my friend. And because of guys like you *he won*. My friend had to pay the burglar $6,000. Is that justice?"

How can one ignore a part of the law, yet try to enforce another when they contradict each other. Gray.

Emulators are not Enablers.  They are software creations, which do not even function, without copyright material.

There is plenty of homebrew software out there.

Thats like making Kentucky Fried Chicken, but leaving out the Chicken.   Just because you reverse engineered the secrets... doesnt mean squat.   Your not selling the Recipe.   Nor are you selling the fully cooked chicken.   In fact, your not even giving out the popular recipe either..   As this is one of the Earlier past versions.   (IE old games vs new)

uhmmm...i'm going to go with...yes?...no?

ROMs are the actual DATA present in the working game, Thus is intellectual property (IP).

If one were to create a game ROM that operated the same in every which way to pacman is it a copy or is it a CLONE? maybe it's pakgurl. illegal...yes? it contains not a single data string from the original game and is all original work. so...no then? the IDEA has been "stolen"? this seems gray again. you can't copyright an idea or a method. Copyrights cover “original works of authorship” that the author fixes in a tangible form (written on paper, typed on computer, scribbled by crayon on a napkin, etc.). In other words, it protects the specifics of your book after it’s written. No one can steal, reprint or PROFIT from your work without your consent. that's the idea right? mamedevs create the emulation of the hardware (not subject to any form of copyright because, well, it doesn't exist.)...a bunch of IC chips. MAME is the "Chicken" and the ROM is the "Kentucky Fried". Now, your argument is invalid. C without the KF is just Chicken. And, i'm not seeing alot of people at KFC complaining people are cooking chicken.

Those whom TRY to sell the Chicken, will be subjected to prosecution by the company.   
To those who try to sell the Recipe,  'might'   also be able to be prosecuted.    However...  when such a secret is blown,  theres nothing you can do... so why even bother?

now we are getting somewhere. secret. that's the....secret. people try to protect themselves and their IP. if you make it secret enough you can protect your IP because nobody knows. but therein lies the problem. how do you make it secret, yet available? a book does nobody any good if it's written in gibberish, and the only person capable of reading it is the author.

You would find KFC chicken clones all over the market in an instant... and the taste will be so identical, that two people couldnt tell them apart.   As well as people possibly cooking the stuff themselves... and possibly selling it via catering, parties, and door to door deals.

yes, yes you would. i would also just sell KFC chicken skins, cause that !@#$ is AWESOME (and disgustingly fattening). but alas, recipes cannot be copyrighted. a recipe is a method and methods cannot be copyrighted. This is why they keep it secret. Sure people have made pretty damn close approximations to the "colonel's secret recipe" and KFC would be smart to keep their mouth shut about "copies" too, because if they said "HEY THIS RECIPE IS INFRINGING ON OUR CHICKEN!" wouldn't everybody know that recipe was "the secret"??...besides if you wanted to try and patent a recipe AND keep it a secret, you couldn't, because applications are public record...then everyone would know  :lol

This has happened to many products over time.   Theres usually a lead grace period.. but by the time the company starts getting off the ground, its usually expired.   All your efforts to make something unique... stolen by larger companies with deep pockets... and protected by the Laws.

sure, again, he who holds the gold, makes the rules. big guys have the ability to stomp out whoever they want to. yeah it sucks.

OR..  you cant even make the simplest of things because one of the rich elite has bought / created a BS patent that dealing with programs input methods & interaction with the net, keyboard, mouse, lan, etc... so that any time you need the program to interact with the person... you have to pay an ungodly, & unjustly steep... usage license fee.  A fee that is witheld from partener companies / friends / backdoor megadeals / puppet string deals  ...etc

and?

yes, it's unfair for little guys. Big evil corporations and patent trolls are bad.

we were talking about the law and the (il)legality of selling ROMs on ebay, remember?

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3957
  • Last login:April 16, 2017, 01:50:02 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2013, 10:20:04 pm »
Quote
yes downloading copies of roms is usually illegal. (specific circumstances can make it legal)

 Prove it.  AFAIK: 

1) Theres no 12 or 24hr must-delete law. 

2) Theres no law that says you can download Terminator 2, just because your DVD got scratched.  (unless they agree to it... and even then, they can change their position at ANY moments notice.

3) There is no law that states that you can download and use roms to repair your old arcade machines.

Quote
distributing copies is more illegal.

 More Illegal than what? 

 Than your President signing the recently passed  "Monsanto Protection Act" , damning anyone who unknowing digests DNA TAMPERED foods that have been found to cause sickness, cancer, digestive problems, serious genetic diseases, leading to multiple costly surgeries... pain, suffering, loss of work, loss of quality of life.. and even Loss of lifespan ...  and you cant even Sue them over it  ?!     (ohh wait... thats Morality... not Legality..   ::)  )

 But more to the Point...

  More Illegal than sites or places which Host said Roms that you downloaded?   

 If these were unreachable...  Permanently gone... I think people would immediately switch stance in favor of door to door, and online ROM sales, QUICKLY.

 Especially if theres no way to play your favorite games.. cause the Govt. has locked down your systems, using a hardware / software monitoring setup..  that can delete material it deems unworthy.   And yet, said game companies refuse to re-release, or release in its original 'superior' historically accurate format...

  Midways IP department has stated to me directly, that they will NEVER release a Marble Madness game, due to the fact that "Puzzle games dont sell well".   

 Most of these companies dont care, nor really want you to buy the old stuff.  Its in their best interests to sell you the NEW stuff.   

Atari, when faced with LAWS of bankruptcy and Write-Offs, had to LEGALLY DESTROY  prototype games, PCBS, artwork..etc.    This is a common thing in all companies.  Which is why many people Illegally dumpster dive the stuff back out.  Things like a scratched vacuum, that cant be sold, and is too expensive to ship back overseas... has its cable cut.. and is tossed in the trash.

Quote
making a profit from someone elses IP is SUPER illegal.


Super Illegal?!    :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

  If that SUPER ILLEGAL...  then what do you call Car Theft, Assault, and Murder?!     :laugh2:

 Its DIABOLICALLY EVIL   FAR more the criminal to download the latest movie and or game... and watch & or play it !!!

 And Even we were comparing NEW material, such as downloading the latest movie... vs ... selling the latest movie,  (to someone who couldnt afford or know how) to download it...  its the same end result!   The company does not get its share of money.

 The only difference to someone (who is not in or related to the company that the IP is part of)  might be Jealousy that someone is making a profit off of an IP,   by risking his very Life, over possibly going to jail or being financially ruined by a lawsuit.

 The Company does not see any difference between someone who Steals their New movie via:  Hosting, Sharing, Downloading  ...  vs someone who sells it.

 They go after new IP,  rarely old IP.   Courts and Layers are a pain, and expensive.  Public negativity is also something they wish to avoid... as that can damage Brand Loyalty, possible new loyal fans / customers,  and thus effect possible future purchases.

 If ever there was an example of wildfire negative and rebellious reactions... it would have been when David Foley tried to Legally take Mames name, for his own financial benefit, in the name of IP.  (Meanwhile he IP pirated arcade games, selling them, and lied about actual licenses gained that he never even had agreements on)

 It wouldnt surprise me in the least, if he wasnt posing as a member here again... to try to get his way again...

 Anyways..  the man is pretty much Hated universally everywhere.  You get a large company that kind of negativity.. and they will suffer similarly, in rebellion, hatred, lost sales..etc.

 Another example, is / was  Napster  and the  RIAA.   No matter how many Lawyers were involved, and how many lawsuits springing up...  companies pretty much stopped lawsuits on individuals.   Only going after the host sites.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/the-riaa-is-dying/

 Mame will be Fine, UNLESS, the people behind MAME,  sells it in mass directly on their site.. without legalized corporate dealings.  And such a deal would eventually be the true death of mame, once it fell into hands that could easily legally shut it down forever.

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2013, 11:01:35 pm »
Prove it.  AFAIK: 

1) Theres no 12 or 24hr must-delete law. 
2) Theres no law that says you can download Terminator 2, just because your DVD got scratched.  (unless they agree to it... and even then, they can change their position at ANY moments notice.
3) There is no law that states that you can download and use roms to repair your old arcade machines.

I can quote law for my country. The same can't necessarily be said for yours.

More Illegal than what? 

 the aforementioned item.

Than your President signing the recently passed  "Monsanto Protection Act" , damning anyone who unknowing digests DNA TAMPERED foods that have been found to cause sickness, cancer, digestive problems, serious genetic diseases, leading to multiple costly surgeries... pain, suffering, loss of work, loss of quality of life.. and even Loss of lifespan ...  and you cant even Sue them over it  ?!     (ohh wait... thats Morality... not Legality..   ::)  )


YOUR president. no president here.

But more to the Point...

  More Illegal than sites or places which Host said Roms that you downloaded?   

more on "More illegal" and "SUPER illegal" later...
"hosting" is another gray area. most P2P "hosts" now only store metadata for the seeds locatons. they hold no actual data (thus being "legal") the seeds... distributing is illegal..but the downloader may be legal or illegal. Gray. the law needs to catch up in all seriousness. THEY blame the "hosts" because they are being enablers, when they should be blaming someone else.

If these were unreachable...  Permanently gone... I think people would immediately switch stance in favor of door to door, and online ROM sales, QUICKLY.

 Especially if theres no way to play your favorite games.. cause the Govt. has locked down your systems, using a hardware / software monitoring setup..  that can delete material it deems unworthy.   And yet, said game companies refuse to re-release, or release in its original 'superior' historically accurate format...

is this some kind of poke to the xbox one console fiasco or just one of those NSA things? if so, i'm not particularly interested.


  Midways IP department has stated to me directly, that they will NEVER release a Marble Madness game, due to the fact that "Puzzle games dont sell well".   

Good for them. Sticking to their ground. I played it a few times. it's not bad I suppose.  Glad you asked them "directly" it's important to know. :cheers:

Most of these companies dont care, nor really want you to buy the old stuff.  Its in their best interests to sell you the NEW stuff.   

unless they are doing some retro game collection "dealies"... then they do. but, yeah sure...call of duty 2028!

Atari, when faced with LAWS of bankruptcy and Write-Offs, had to LEGALLY DESTROY  prototype games, PCBS, artwork..etc.    This is a common thing in all companies.  Which is why many people Illegally dumpster dive the stuff back out.  Things like a scratched vacuum, that cant be sold, and is too expensive to ship back overseas... has its cable cut.. and is tossed in the trash.

kay.

Super Illegal?!    :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

  If that SUPER ILLEGAL...  then what do you call Car Theft, Assault, and Murder?!     :laugh2:

I thought you'd get a kick out of that. I was trying to make things all rainbow for you. Do you see how STUPID it sounds now? Illegal - black, Legal - White. there is no varying degrees of legality and illegality. If you try to cater to this and that, and make things legal here and illegal in that...things get f'd up.

Its DIABOLICALLY EVIL   FAR more the criminal to download the latest movie and or game... and watch & or play it !!!

 And Even we were comparing NEW material, such as downloading the latest movie... vs ... selling the latest movie,  (to someone who couldnt afford or know how) to download it...  its the same end result!   The company does not get its share of money.

 The only difference to someone (who is not in or related to the company that the IP is part of)  might be Jealousy that someone is making a profit off of an IP,   by risking his very Life, over possibly going to jail or being financially ruined by a lawsuit.

 The Company does not see any difference between someone who Steals their New movie via:  Hosting, Sharing, Downloading  ...  vs someone who sells it.


TL;DR version: Movie companies are --bags of cream-filled twinkies--. 


 They go after new IP,  rarely old IP.   Courts and Layers are a pain, and expensive.  Public negativity is also something they wish to avoid... as that can damage Brand Loyalty, possible new loyal fans / customers,  and thus effect possible future purchases.

so by that reasoning if i download something old, it's legal?

If ever there was an example of wildfire negative and rebellious reactions... it would have been when David Foley tried to Legally take Mames name, for his own financial benefit, in the name of IP.  (Meanwhile he IP pirated arcade games, selling them, and lied about actual licenses gained that he never even had agreements on)

C'mon dude, even YOU had to think that BS was HILARIOUS   :laugh2:

It wouldnt surprise me in the least, if he wasnt posing as a member here again... to try to get his way again...

ne neither  ::)

coughcough

Anyways..  the man is pretty much Hated universally everywhere.  You get a large company that kind of negativity.. and they will suffer similarly, in rebellion, hatred, lost sales..etc.

well, companies hate him. while he was posting around here, he seemed like a helpful, mannered person. The same can't be said for some people here. I got nothing against him. Then again, he never stole my IP.

Another example, is / was  Napster  and the  RIAA.   No matter how many Lawyers were involved, and how many lawsuits springing up...  companies pretty much stopped lawsuits on individuals.   Only going after the host sites.

would you rather sue thousands of individual people...who have nothing, or a single company making literally thousands of dollars a day in ad revenue who are enabling the people to do the "pirating"? they spent money hand over fist trying to stem the tide from the source. of course they changed tactic to eliminate the means...it's the smart thing to do.

(no need for a link)
 Mame will be Fine, UNLESS, the people behind MAME,  sells it in mass directly on their site.. without legalized corporate dealings.  And such a deal would eventually be the true death of mame, once it fell into hands that could easily legally shut it down forever.

yes, mame will be fine.

setting all this aside for a second, can you agree this one thing is certain?...

 "Someone selling game ROMs on ebay for profit, when it's even prohibited by ebays own list of "things you can't sell because it's illegal to do so" is not only illegal, but douchey of ebay to continue to allow sellers to do so." ?

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3957
  • Last login:April 16, 2017, 01:50:02 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2013, 12:08:50 am »
That aside, downloading a ROM (or CD or DVD or PROGRAM) is absolutely LEGAL, provided you own the original work.

 - As said, Prove it.  I doubt it exists.   I believe this is Purely up to the companys discretion.   

 In the future, you probably will not be able to:

 1) Own a game permanently  (Hence the advertising push for the "Cloud" )
 2) Sell a Used game

Quote
"UPLOADING" (by definition of the law) is illegal. it's one of these legal gray areas that we are talking about. That is the issue here, yes it's legal because law but it's not because copyright, but is because something else.

 You couldnt even get the ROM data, if you didnt UPLOAD it from the chip to your PC / Rom Burner.   And, furthermore, its doubtful the Law states you are allowed to COPY (backup) your Roms from one chip to another... even in the case of a failing chip.

 These laws are poorly written for a reason.  Because the lawmakers do not understand that level of technicality..  AND, most laws are created by MONEY.   So there's little reason to change them, unless it is effecting profits of said corporation, ... and then it will be 'bought' into existence.

 Atari's larger investors, and +51% stock owners, dont care if you Ever fix your Asteroid's machine.  In fact, they might rather you didnt have that ability.  As the less games to compete with their new games.. the better.     These people do not have to care about Historical importance.

Quote
i suppose one could stretch the law so far as to say DISTRIBUTING is legal if you could find a way to determine with absolute certainty that the person downloading the work from you had an original of said work.

 Its only recently that companies had started to bend to the will of the masses, in allowing media to be re-downloaded.. and or have a digital copy.   That again, is their choice.  A choice that can be revoked at any time... especially when that company dies, is sold off,  and or changes its position.

 Distribution across multiple computers saves them the costs of storing & bandwidth costs.  So its started to become a new standard.  Thats probably why the new cable modems that TW hands out are the size of a Cereal Box.  And or data is being held in peoples cablebox hard drives as well.  "The Cloud".   What a crock of crap.

Quote
You can't have gray in law, it must be black and white. This is why ridiculous lawsuits happen. you ever seen "Liar, Liar"? this is perfectly represented by the following: "Several years ago a friend of mine had a burglar on her roof, a burglar. He fell through the kitchen skylight, landed on a cutting board, on a butcher's knife, cutting his leg. The burglar sued my friend, he sued my friend. And because of guys like you *he won*. My friend had to pay the burglar $6,000. Is that justice?"

How can one ignore a part of the law, yet try to enforce another when they contradict each other. Gray.

 Thats a bunch of Crap and you know it.

 It doesnt matter how CLEARLY spelled out the Law is.   Someone will just alter its meaning to suit their agenda,  use psychological tactics to get people on their side  (WMD!),  Buy out and or threaten the Jury,  Buy the Judges  (in Monsanto's case... put their own corrupt & morally bankrupt people in the FDA to pass their deadly toxic tampered seed)...

 Basically, the law means SQUAT.

 If someone wants to screw you over.. and they have the money, power, or key friendships... your getting screwed, no matter if the law is written word for word perfect.

 In Liar Liar, it wasnt the Laws that failed.  Its that the system is easily corrupted by money and power.   Nothing at all, to do with written word.


Quote
There is plenty of homebrew software out there.

 Whats your point?  Its not exact code, graphics and sound duplicated.

 Homebrew isnt a Rom / Direct Copy.  At best, you could make clones game roms.. and potentially be somewhat legal.

 However, not many people have the skills to recode a game to fit on the hardware from scratch, using the hardwares
original language and operational parameters.   Just changing graphics, sound, levels..  alone, isnt enough.  If code is completely duplicated in mass ... and can be proven,  then it could be illegal.    We are allowed creative freedom within reason.

Quote
ROMs are the actual DATA present in the working game, Thus is intellectual property (IP).

 Hate to say it.. but even hardware is IP.   You cant make a duplicate SNES motherboard, and sell it.
Certain chips are custom built..  where as others are generic.  But the order and way they are assembled are IP.

 But, being that these chips are being emulated, rather than reproduced physically.. changes things.  Also, if the process is even mildly different, it may also change things.


Quote
the IDEA has been "stolen"? this seems gray again. you can't copyright an idea or a method.

 You can get sued if something is too close to the original in nature.  They are definite bounds.  Usually companies dont bother to sue clones.  But many of them could, and many of them would win.   Even mild notices sent via email on the threat of possible lawsuit, usually does the trick.   Most times the said clone is far inferior anyways.

Quote
In other words, it protects the specifics of your book after it’s written.

 That really isnt 100% true.   If your book had a recipe in it.. someone could reproduce that same recipe in their book.  Many times the same quote may be in many different books.  And if it was a martial arts book... the process could be described in a similar, if not exact same way.    You can even write a book about a boy Wizzard & his two close friends from Magic-School   :P    But the key is how much difference there is.  Theres a certain percentage that you have to abide by.

Quote
MAME is the "Chicken" and the ROM is the "Kentucky Fried". Now, your argument is invalid. C without the KF is just Chicken. And, i'm not seeing alot of people at KFC complaining people are cooking chicken.

 Thats what I meant.  Typed it up backwards.   However, I believe I was eluding to proprietary chips.  Either way, as said.. the argument stands.  I dont believe you cant sue Devs for putting out software that has zero roms, and merely  simulated IC chips.

Quote
now we are getting somewhere. secret. that's the....secret. people try to protect themselves and their IP. if you make it secret enough you can protect your IP because nobody knows. but therein lies the problem. how do you make it secret, yet available? a book does nobody any good if it's written in gibberish, and the only person capable of reading it is the author.

 Are you a Mason?  :P

 Secrets cant stay secrets forever.  Someone is bound to blab.  Especially if theres enough money involved.
And roms...  they are not really all that secretive... unless they are epoxy blocked and or running some crazy encryption.  Understanding the roms data and ability to decompile it into an understood program... is quite another thing however.
Its possible.. as seen with the recent outrun engine 'Cannonball'.   (Whom also seems to have no fear over Sega beating his door down with layers, and handcuffs)

 Also, on the Subject of Secrets (relating to society, rather than games)   .. it breeds elitism. 
And thats something I personally think is bad.


Quote
we were talking about the law and the (il)legality of selling ROMs on ebay, remember?

 Yup.    As I said.. we all know that selling roms, on ebay or in person door to door.. is not legal.   But being a pest to ebay, whom is most likely part of a chain of businesses owned under a parent umbrella company..   and said puppet string puller..     is like waving a Burning flag covered in dog poop in the middle of busy road... drawing way too much attention to something that everyone was pretty much ignoring.. and didnt really care about.

 If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody's there to hear it.. does it really make a sound?

 If people report rom sellers constantly to ebay... ebay may get frustrated.. and ebay, probably umbrella-ed under many parent companies & various stockholders...  may decide to do something drastic.

 At most, if they really feel theres a big enough operation, or feeling of strong distaste.. a game company might send a cease and desist email... and if it continues.. they might decide on legal action, in the form of an official snail mail letter... and go from there.   Theres really no way that mame team would be involved in this.

 Mame has nothing to do with ROMs being sold... just like Grills manufacturers have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them.

CoryBee

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2093
  • Last login:November 13, 2019, 09:57:26 am
  • Bopity Boopy
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2013, 02:13:04 am »
Holy monkey tits batman!

 :banghead: :banghead:

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2013, 11:27:09 am »
According to Canadian law, you are legally allowed to make "backup or archival copies" of any form of media that you own and have the right to use in private. This means that if you have DVD players in several rooms of your house, you may copy a DVD that you have legally purchased to use in those players instead of the original in order to prevent damage or wear from affecting the original, or for any other home-use purpose. As with anything, public viewing, distribution, renting or loaning is still strictly prohibited by law.

HOWEVER, there is also a stipulation that states that the bypassing of copyright protection is itself an unlawful act. This is how the distributors get you legally. In order to prevent unlawful copyright infringement (IE: Piracy), the production companies have added copyright protection (such as Macrovision) to DVD's and new CD's to make it more difficult to copy them and software requiring decryption dongles or whathaveyou to operate... But at the same time, they have also now prevented legal owners of those movies and music discs from making copies for their own use, because bypassing the copy protection they have placed on it is unlawful. In other words, while it is still legal to make a copy for your own use, it is illegal to bypass the copy protection on it in order to make that copy.

In the "good ole USA" (home of the free where i believe you hail from)

Quote
Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if:

the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only;
you are the legal owner of the copy; and
any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred.
You are not permitted under section 117 to make a backup copy of other material on a computer's hard drive, such as other copyrighted works that have been downloaded (e.g., music, films).

It is also important to check the terms of sale or license agreement of the original copy of software in case any special conditions have been put in place by the copyright owner that might affect your ability or right under section 117 to make a backup copy. There is no other provision in the Copyright Act that specifically authorizes the making of backup copies of works other than computer programs even if those works are distributed as digital copies.

therein lies a problem with all of this... everything is fine if you make the copy yourself. but the law isn't clear if you download it. sure it's illegal to distribute it, so by downloading it, it's illegal, but at the same time it's legal because we have an original work. the copy you have is illegal? legal? GRAY. There is no black/white in the law that covers this situation.

Quote
You couldnt even get the ROM data, if you didnt UPLOAD it from the chip to your PC / Rom Burner.

ugh.  look if you pull a ROM out of a game and load the info from that chip onto your computer screen, you have made a copy. (even if you don't save it, memory is considered a medium.) are you sure you know what UPLOADING means in the context? in that case it was being used to describe the computer system that is supplying your computer with the data. IE a "seed" you are making or "DOWNLOADING" (finger air quites), a copy.

Quote
And, furthermore, its doubtful the Law states you are allowed to COPY (backup) your Roms from one chip to another... even in the case of a failing chip.

archival purposes explained above in the USA law section

Quote
Thats a bunch of Crap and you know it.

 It doesnt matter how CLEARLY spelled out the Law is.   Someone will just alter its meaning to suit their agenda,  use psychological tactics to get people on their side  (WMD!),  Buy out and or threaten the Jury,  Buy the Judges  (in Monsanto's case... put their own corrupt & morally bankrupt people in the FDA to pass their deadly toxic tampered seed)...

 Basically, the law means SQUAT.

 If someone wants to screw you over.. and they have the money, power, or key friendships... your getting screwed, no matter if the law is written word for word perfect.

 In Liar Liar, it wasnt the Laws that failed.  Its that the system is easily corrupted by money and power.   Nothing at all, to do with written word.

He who holds the gold... ::) you have a problem with it, stop voting for them.

Quote
Hate to say it.. but even hardware is IP.   You cant make a duplicate SNES motherboard, and sell it.
Certain chips are custom built..  where as others are generic.  But the order and way they are assembled are IP.

 But, being that these chips are being emulated, rather than reproduced physically.. changes things.  Also, if the process is even mildly different, it may also change things.

so if i take a shitload of transistors, capacitors, and resistors (essentially what IC's comprise of) and solder it all together into a room sized abortion that could in theory load a SNES rom image and run the programming. (assuming I did not just reverse engineer the original SNES to produce it) is the giant abortion legal or illegal? the "method" has been violated. but not any kind of IP. how about using similar chips to perform a similar function? how about using a software emulation of the hardware chips? this is all starting to sound the same. in one hand you say emulation is fine, then in the other you say it's illegal because the hardware is IP. so which is it? is mame illegal now? yes if i plopped my SNESCLONE into a case that looked the same as the SNES case it would be illegal because i'm stealing the design of the case. put it into my own case and i'm good to go. (i suppose)  :dunno

Quote
You can get sued if something is too close to the original in nature.  They are definite bounds.  Usually companies dont bother to sue clones.  But many of them could, and many of them would win.   Even mild notices sent via email on the threat of possible lawsuit, usually does the trick.   Most times the said clone is far inferior anyways.

pathetic scare tactics. if you had the bucks you could fight and win. but you don't so we cave and get our asses handed to us.

Quote
Mame has nothing to do with ROMs being sold... just like Grills manufacturers have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them.

well said. Absolutely right.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6164
  • Last login:Yesterday at 05:51:33 pm
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2013, 04:08:40 pm »
Mame has nothing to do with ROMs being sold... just like Grills manufacturers have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them.


From my experience, sometimes even grill owners have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them.  ;)

Dawgz Rule

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 717
  • Last login:Yesterday at 06:25:11 am
  • The more people I meet, the more I like my dogs
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2013, 04:42:33 pm »
Quote
From my experience, sometimes even grill owners have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them. 
   :laugh2: :cheers:

CoryBee

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2093
  • Last login:November 13, 2019, 09:57:26 am
  • Bopity Boopy
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2013, 04:54:22 pm »
HAHAHAHA  :laugh2:

Took me a second to remember that story vigo

ChadTower

  • Chief Kicker - Nobody's perfect, including me. Fantastic body.
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38216
  • Last login:January 20, 2020, 10:27:05 am
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2013, 08:05:47 pm »

 :laugh2: :laugh2:



Lilshawn, stop arguing with that meatbag and go back to normal life.

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2013, 02:07:51 pm »
sorry i'm late coming back to the party... my computer is in pieces on my kitchen table right now.  ;D


Mame has nothing to do with ROMs being sold... just like Grills manufacturers have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them.


From my experience, sometimes even grill owners have nothing to do with what gets cooked on them.  ;)


I'd ALMOST forgotten about that.  :lol

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6525
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:48:34 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2013, 09:55:23 pm »

 :laugh2: :laugh2:



Lilshawn, stop arguing with that meatbag and go back to normal life.


such is my life  ;D

Naw, it's okay. I can point by point argue...I'm pretty good at CTRL+C and CTRL+V  :lol also i'm pretty adept with the googles.

ChadTower

  • Chief Kicker - Nobody's perfect, including me. Fantastic body.
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38216
  • Last login:January 20, 2020, 10:27:05 am
Re: mame roms and other illegal items available for sale on ebay
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2013, 10:31:36 pm »
Naw, it's okay. I can point by point argue...I'm pretty good at CTRL+C and CTRL+V  :lol also i'm pretty adept with the googles.


But are you good at reclaiming lost moments of life spent arguing with that sack of vinegar?