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Author Topic: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)  (Read 6321 times)

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rmwilson

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Hello folks .... looking to connect 4 seperate 5k pots to http://www.u-hid.com/home/index.php  Uhid device - and not sure how I handle the voltage - the pots need 5v each ... can I daisy chain them or do I connect them separately to the board or straight to 5v at my power supply separately from board? ?

any help would be greatly appreciated as I am totally new to figuring this stuff out .. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 04:06:55 pm by rmwilson »

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Re: %k pots and power supply - can / shouyld I daisy chain
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2015, 05:34:09 pm »
You can daisy chain 5v across several pots.

You can also daisy chain ground across several pots.

See pg 11 of the manual here.

If you wanted to add a second pot to that setup, you could:
- use the ground from pin 2
- use the 5v from pin 5
- assign pin 4 as another analog input (like pin 3 in the example)


Scott
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:42:13 pm by PL1 »

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 03:08:38 pm »
thanks Scott for the reply ... I did look through the manual but I'm not really getting it, its written with a fair bit of technical know how assumption, - read through it a few times but i'm not able to articulate it mentally - I'm having trouble understanding which pins I assign and when and which pins are pre assigned, In other words having trouble figuring out how to wire it all up ...

I am hacking a Sega manxtt cab into a PC to run modern day motogp 15
I've got four pots need to figure out what pins to connect them to ( left, right, throttle, and brake)
i need to get them voltage  not sure if that goes to the HID board or straight to my power supply?
Then of course I have to add a few buttons as well ...


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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 05:58:04 am »
I did look through the manual but I'm not really getting it, its written with a fair bit of technical know how assumption, - read through it a few times but i'm not able to articulate it mentally - I'm having trouble understanding which pins I assign and when and which pins are pre assigned, In other words having trouble figuring out how to wire it all up ...
There's an explanation of how potentiometers work here.

Think of the potentiometers as floor lamps with dimmer switches.

You can plug the floor lamps into a power strip (5v and ground daisy-chains) and adjust the dimmer switch (wiper) for each lamp individually.

I am hacking a Sega manxtt cab into a PC to run modern day motogp 15
I've got four pots need to figure out what pins to connect them to ( left, right, throttle, and brake)
i need to get them voltage  not sure if that goes to the HID board or straight to my power supply?
Then of course I have to add a few buttons as well ...
According to pg 2 of the schematic PDF here, there are only 3 game input pots -- angle, throttle, and brake. (angle pot is at grid C3, throttle and brake pots are at grid C4)

The wires from the pots lead to the connector at grid A3.

The wires in that connector include:
  * pins 1 and 12 AVCC - Analog operating voltage -- connect these two wires to 5v from the U-HID (UHID pin 6 in the example below)
  * pins 4 and 14 AGND - Analog ground -- connect these two wires to ground from the U-HID (UHID pin 2) *
  * pin 2 THROTTLE - Wiper of the throttle potentiometer -- connect to a U-HID analog input (UHID pin 4 in the example below)
  * pin 3 BRAKE - Wiper of the brake potentiometer -- connect to a U-HID analog input (UHID pin 5 in the example below)
  * pin 13 ANGLE - Wiper of the angle/steering potentiometer -- connect to a U-HID analog input (UHID pin 3 in the example below)
  * pin 7 START SW - Switch 1 -- connect to a U-HID switch input (UHID pin 7 in the example below)
  * pin 9 SHIFT UP - Switch 2 -- connect to a U-HID switch input (UHID pin 8 in the example below)
  * pin 10 SHIFT DOWN - Switch 3 -- connect to a U-HID switch input (UHID pin 9 in the example below)
  * pins 8 and 11 GND - Switch grounds -- connect these two wires to ground from the U-HID (UHID pin 2) *

Now you need to assign inputs/program the U-HID.
  * pin 2 - Ground (non-programmable default) -- Used for both analog and switches *
  * pin 3 - Analog input (X-axis recommended) -- Steering
  * pin 4 - Analog input (Y-axis recommended) -- Throttle
  * pin 5 - Analog input (you may want to avoid Z-axis) -- Brake
  * pin 6 - 5v
  * pin 7 - Switch input 1 -- Start button
  * pin 8 - Switch input 2 -- Shift up button
  * pin 9 - Switch input 3 -- Shift down button

* - If analog and switches sharing grounds causes interference, you may need to assign separate ground pins for them.


Scott
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:00:24 am by PL1 »

rmwilson

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2015, 02:36:05 pm »
Holly Cripes Scott !!! You are awesome...

I was just out in my garage trying to figure out each wire using connectivity test (Beep) and was going to come in to post a question ... and BAM you put a tone of effort into this - I can't thank you enough send me your address or pay pal I'd love to send you a thank you gift card for coffee or something !!!

P.s you're right there are only three pots I thought there was one for each left and right - turns out just one.

Hewe is my findings

One the sega bike part of the machine there is a white 15 pin molex plug/ connector and I found the following connectivity

Brake
pin 2 on connector - was the middle wire on the brake Pot
pin 2 on connector was the far right wire on the brake pot --- this is odd as both pot terminals were beeping on same pin?????
pin 15 on connector was the first wire on the brake pot

Throttle
Pin 2 on connector was top wire on pot - brown wire on pot
pin 9 was white wire on the pot
pin 15 was the bottom wire on the pot pink

Steering (left and right)
Pin 3 was the brown wire on the pot
pin 10 was the middle wire on the pot (pink)
pin 12 was the middle wire grey with blue tracer)


Scott - you mentions pins 1, 12, go to ACCC - 5V -
Question how is the third power for the third pot accomplished?
Not sure if this is right or not but just a thought to talk about,  when I did my continuity testing I did get one wire on the steering pot (Angle)
that was on a Separate connector it was pin 12 on different (white 12 pin molex) connector.-Based on wiring spec possible or is something not right here?

I'll go through your notes and see and maybe I'll have to try it a couple different ways... AGAIN I can't thank you enough for taking the time and going through the whole wire spec and such - you're awesome... I'm hoping we can chat more through this and work through it together if you don't mind...( i love to be able to connect the speakers, (volume adjustment, and tail lights and such if at all possible)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 07:01:08 pm by rmwilson »

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 04:27:10 pm »
I'd love to send you a thank you gift card for coffee or something !!!
Just pay it forward.    :cheers:

Brake
pin 2 on connector - was the middle wire on the brake Pot
pin 2 on connector was the far right wire on the brake pot --- this is odd as both pot terminals were beeping on same pin?????
I bet if you pressed the brake pedal while measuring, you'd get different results.  >:D

Pin 2 is wiper for the brake.

When the brake is not pressed, the wiper contact is not centered like the green line.

It is positioned near the blue line (or on the other side) close enough to the "far right terminal" to read as continuity.

When you press the pedal, the wiper moves closer to the green line and it will no longer read as continuity.   ;D

The "far right terminal" is probably connected to pin 1.   :dunno



I'm hoping we can chat more through this and work through it together if you don't mind...
I'll be here.  ;D


Scott
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 04:32:03 pm by PL1 »

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2015, 08:59:39 am »
Oh boy !!

Connected all up as per your outline and suggestion and assigned each pin in the app- but NOTHING worked not the start/ enter button not up or down ( which is key stroke s ,x, in the pc version of the game in options) - was hoping to have something then just work through anything that might be reversed or not working ...

Do I have to reconfigure that board each time - if i power down its not saving the configurations? any thoughts there?
I opened not pad to test button presses and such pressed up and down to see if it was registering a key stroke and nope... how do i know the computer is using the u-hid board where do I check to know its receiving a signal from the board and not the attached usb keyboard- is that maybe my problem that i have both attached (a key board and a u-hid usb board....??/)

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2015, 06:49:22 pm »
Connected all up as per your outline and suggestion and assigned each pin in the app- but NOTHING worked not the start/ enter button not up or down ( which is key stroke s ,x, in the pc version of the game in options) - was hoping to have something then just work through anything that might be reversed or not working ...
Pardon me if this sounds insulting, but after you "assigned each pin in the app", did you remember to program the board?

Changing a setting in the app is not the same as changing the setting on the board.


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 05:16:47 pm »
Not insulting at all - I will admit openly and honestly I have very little idea what i am doing - but i have determination and desire to work through it and figure it out ... I'm tenacious.

errrrrrr ummmmmm - I had no idea I was suppose to change settings on board to- i thought by using the app it programmed the board. Each time i moved to a new pin it asked me to save changes and i said yes - under the impression its saving it to the board ??????? any thoughts on what I should actually be doing is more than welcomed...

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 06:40:35 pm »
Just to make sure that we're talking about the same thing.

http://www.u-hid.com/home/u_config_utils.php



Quote from: Ultimarc
APPLY
This button applies the changes you have made to the pin.

Use the Apply button to program the board.

If the Apply button doesn't get your setup working, disconnect the harness for now to eliminate possible wiring discrepancies.

Touch a jumper wire from ground to one of the button pins (Start) to see if you're getting the desired keystroke. (1)

Once you are getting the desired keystrokes, you can test the analog (wiper) inputs by shorting them to ground or 5v -- the same as turning the potentiometer all the way one way or the other.

Once you know the board is working as desired, verify and reconnect the harness.


Scott
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 06:43:50 pm by PL1 »

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 07:39:00 pm »
Hey scott

Just a quick update - i started playing with the board again with just the board and pc - it is NOT hooked up to the sega cabinet  i used a micro switch i have laying around and the enter, s, and x, keys all worked in note pad - by pressing the micro switch (for clarity individually hooking up the wires that on pin 7, 8, 9, on the u-hid board and attaching the ground to the micro switch - so its working there -- I am going back out to the garage to see if i can get it to work on he bike (take computer back out to the garage - at least i know the switch wires are configured correctly on the u-hid board ( for start = enter, for gear up - s and gear down- x) :)

I have a feeling i have to separate the analog grounds and the switch grounds ( as when i did my test here was only one switch and one ground wire )



lets see if i get the same respone outside

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2015, 09:54:27 pm »
Hey Scott - thanks for ll your help with this ... okay here's the update ...

things worked well inside when I bench tested using a micro switch for start= enter key, s, x, for shift up and down - (side note FYI when I shorted to test the wipers (all 3)  I saw in the (joy.cpl) game pad device controllers configuration window the x and y axis move they jumped quickly to the extreme end and when un shorted went back very very very slowly to where they started-


When i plugged into the sega harness - not so much ...

when I pressed start (button on sega machine) or gear up or gear down buttons on sega machine-  I did not see any response in note pad.
HOWEVER - when I turned the throttle and released it a letter "s" in note pad  (which is the key board key for gear up) no matter how much i opened the throttle as soon as it sprung back and hit the closed position stop an 's' would appear in note pad. Interestingly enough and "s" would ALSO appear as soon as I touched  the brake - a little bit of brake or full brake an 's' would appear ....

I double checked the u_hid configuration utility and I have
u-hid pin 4 =  Analog axis >Axis 2 (Y) (I have pin 2 from sega harness going here throttle from your original wire pin out)
u-hid pin 5 = Analog axis  >Axis 1 (X) (I have pin 3 from sega harness going here brake from your original wire pin out)


just to summarize - none of the sega buttons produced key strokes (start, gear up and gear down) - NOTHING
throttle and brake produce an s consistently each time.

what do you think?

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 10:05:20 pm by rmwilson »

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 11:01:49 pm »
I'm an idiot - a retard!!!! oh man you must be racking your brain ... I knew something was not right - I looked over my 15 pin connector i made and of course all the outside pins were totally mis-numbered as i counted from the back and not the front so 1,3 4,6, 7,9 10, 12, 13, 15, were all reversed - no wonder we are getting strange readings! - just renumbered everything double checked to make sure all connections are actually a good connection (checked by making sure we had connectivity at the 15 pin molex and the spade connectors i was making to connect to u-hid) we should be in better shape now! I am off to the garage wanted to write back in case you were studying the wiring diagram trying to figure this snafu out !

Stay tuned for the next update scott !

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 11:57:55 pm »
I'm an idiot - a retard!!!! oh man you must be racking your brain ... I knew something was not right - I looked over my 15 pin connector i made and of course all the outside pins were totally mis-numbered as i counted from the back and not the front so 1,3 4,6, 7,9 10, 12, 13, 15, were all reversed - no wonder we are getting strange readings! - just renumbered everything double checked to make sure all connections are actually a good connection (checked by making sure we had connectivity at the 15 pin molex and the spade connectors i was making to connect to u-hid) we should be in better shape now! I am off to the garage wanted to write back in case you were studying the wiring diagram trying to figure this snafu out !

Stay tuned for the next update scott !
NOW you tell me!   :lol

If things aren't working right, disconnect the coin switches -- they appear to be wired in parallel with the coin return lights which might fry your U-HID depending on the voltage and how how things are wired.   :badmood:
EDIT: Wire 30 is 5v and wire 52 goes to the coin meter which runs off 5v -- it won't fry your U-HID.   ;D

Here's where I was at when I saw your update.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like you either tapped into a different connector or are using different numbering for the pins.   :dunno

Either way, it's time to sort out the wiring using a multimeter in ohms mode.

PROTIP: Taking ohms measurements with power on will kill your meter.   :banghead:

Disconnect all connections you made to the harness and assume that everything is wired wrong until it is confirmed.

1. Start by figuring out which two wires are connected to the Start, Up and Down buttons -- when you press the button, resistance drops to <2 ohms.

2. Write down which two wires go to each button.

3. Connect the pin that these buttons have in common to one ground pin. (digital ground)

Not sure if the U-HID needs separate digital and analog grounds, but it can't hurt to connect them to different pins.

4. Connect the remaining three wires to the associated pins on the U-HID. (We'll come back for the coin switches later)

***Verify that the Start, Up and Down buttons are working as desired.***

5. Find the two wires connected to tab 1 and tab 3 of the steering pot -- verify that the resistance between them measures 5 kohms.

6. Connect one of the pins from step 5 to 5v and the other to ground. (analog ground)

7. Figure out which wire is connected to the wiper on the steering pot -- resistance will vary between the wiper wire and the 5v wire as you turn the wheel.

***Check to see if the steering wheel is working as desired.***

8. If the steering wheel is working "backwards", swap the wires from step 6 -- no damage done.   ;D

9. Find the two wires connected to tab 1 and tab 3 of the brake/throttle -- verify that the resistance between them measures 5 kohms.

10. Connect one of the pins from step 9 to 5v and the other to ground. (analog ground)

11. Figure out which wires are connected to the wipers on the brake and gas pots -- resistance will vary between the wiper wire and the 5v wire as you press the pedal.

***Check to see if the gas and brake are working as desired.***

12. If the gas and brake are working "backwards", swap the wires from step 10 -- no damage done.   ;D


Scott
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 12:28:37 am by PL1 »

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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2015, 12:31:44 am »
Okay I see your update I will have to go through each ...

Here is my result after I fixed my wiring and confirmed connections and numbering to uhid and my 15 pin molex i will connect to the sega machine.

Just a quick heads up before I start - the whole game was working and playable before (allthough i never checked shift up shift down as i always played automatic transmission -maybe one teh shift buttons might be faulty who knows... )
I disconnected the plugs and started building a wire harness - i have not cut any wires - I'm trying to wire into factory plugs. (just to add a bit more clarity to you so you know whats going on

There is no power going to the whole unit other than the 5v from the u-hid board - feeding pins 1, 12, of the sega connector i have them daisy chained into the uhid going into plug 7 pin 3 as that is 5v by default replacing suggested pin 6 in your example.

Luckily the way the sega machine goes together the bike controller (steering wheel/ brake throtle and start button) separates from all other connections - there are a handful of plugs 5-6 that come out from the bike unit they are not connected to anything i have just been working on the one 15 pin plug- leaving others unconnected (these plugs are for all other do dads and nick nacks, power supply, motor, speakers, coin door, leader lamp, marquee  etc)  but suspect I may need to use one or two wires from another plug based on my original connectivity tests - but we'll see as we get there... ( we should confirm if the middle wire the wiper for the angle (let right) goes to a separate 12 pin connector - when i first tried connectivity before your suggested your wiring pin out -  I was getting tone on a second 12 pin connector on pin 12 for the steering wiper (middle wire steering pot) ...



So...
we have one of the three buttons working ( shift up)
there are four wires for start button some might be an LED but i think there is something faulty there with one wire not sure if its the led wire or the button wire. (I'll double check tomorrow when its a bit brighter)
throttle and brake seem to have an effect on windows (closing and opening the diagnostic window)



After i rewired and checked all connections I tried it again ...
The up button is sending an 's' to note pad - down button not sending an 'x' - nothing

The enter (start button mapped to enter)  button is not working i am going to check for a lose connection on the actual button.

when you are in the windows game controller trouble shooting window and if you turn throttle it closes the window turn again it brings window up
same for brake - pull brake it closes window... so the pc is certainly getting a signal from those items.

Left and right still no go ... not showing in the game controller diagnostic (windows) - i move bike left right nothing happens...

I did load up moto gp 15 to see if the shift up worked there it DID :) - throtle brake left right did not work at all ... in the game -


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Re: 5k pots and power supply - can / should I daisy chain
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2015, 01:58:40 am »
Just a quick heads up before I start - the whole game was working and playable before (allthough i never checked shift up shift down as i always played automatic transmission -maybe one teh shift buttons might be faulty who knows... )
Easy enough to check continuity at your molex adapter with one lead on the ground pin and the other on the switch pin.

If pressing the button doesn't work, try shorting the microswitch NO and COM tabs with a piece of wire.

I disconnected the plugs and started building a wire harness - i have not cut any wires - I'm trying to wire into factory plugs. (just to add a bit more clarity to you so you know whats going on
Cool -- no maiming for MAME.   ;D

You might need some alternate wiring/LEDs for the coin switches/lamps, but we can leave them for next to last.

There is no power going to the whole unit other than the 5v from the u-hid board
Should be good, but you may need to replace any incandescent lamps with wedge-base LEDs (current draw) -- leave hooking up the lights for last.

- feeding pins 1, 12, of the sega connector i have them daisy chained into the uhid going into plug 7 pin 3 as that is 5v by default replacing suggested pin 6 in your example.
Sounds good.

Luckily the way the sega machine goes together the bike controller (steering wheel/ brake throtle and start button) separates from all other connections - there are a handful of plugs 5-6 that come out from the bike unit they are not connected to anything i have just been working on the one 15 pin plug- leaving others unconnected (these plugs are for all other do dads and nick nacks, power supply, motor, speakers, coin door, leader lamp, marquee  etc)  but suspect I may need to use one or two wires from another plug based on my original connectivity tests - but we'll see as we get there... ( we should confirm if the middle wire the wiper for the angle (let right) goes to a separate 12 pin connector - when i first tried connectivity before your suggested your wiring pin out -  I was getting tone on a second 12 pin connector on pin 12 for the steering wiper (middle wire steering pot) ...
Wire 92 ("ANGLE"/steering wiper) does go to two connectors.

You only need to connect one of the wires to the U-HID to control steering -- it's OK to leave the other wire not connected.

there are four wires for start button some might be an LED but i think there is something faulty there with one wire not sure if its the led wire or the button wire. (I'll double check tomorrow when its a bit brighter)
Yes, two wires for the lamp (leave those for the end), and two separate wires for the switch.

throttle and brake seem to have an effect on windows (closing and opening the diagnostic window)

After i rewired and checked all connections I tried it again ...
The up button is sending an 's' to note pad - down button not sending an 'x' - nothing

The enter (start button mapped to enter)  button is not working i am going to check for a lose connection on the actual button.

when you are in the windows game controller trouble shooting window and if you turn throttle it closes the window turn again it brings window up
same for brake - pull brake it closes window... so the pc is certainly getting a signal from those items.

Left and right still no go ... not showing in the game controller diagnostic (windows) - i move bike left right nothing happens...

I did load up moto gp 15 to see if the shift up worked there it DID :) - throtle brake left right did not work at all ... in the game -
If it's working in Notepad or windows game controller properties, it will work in the games.

Just take things one step at a time and we'll get everything working.   ;D

I suggest fixing things in the following order:
  1. Buttons
  2. Analog inputs
  3. Coin switches
  4. Lamps


Scott

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not sure where to go next ....

When I jumper the buttons and short the wipers on my desk with uhid connected to pc but nothing physically connected to uhid - i see response in the windows diagnostic tool - the wipers when shorted jump quickly to the extreme x, y axis ends but then creeps back really slowly to starting point when jumper/ short is disconnected - I mean real slow like 7 seconds or so ...

so so buttons and wipers are doing something when I bench test. - but not when connected to cabinet/ sega game. ARRRRRRG !

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not sure where to go next ....
Buttons first.

1 Check if the down and enter microswitches are working by checking for continuity between NO and COM during button press.

2. Ohm out the down and enter button wires from the microswitch to the 15 pin molex to be sure you have correctly identified the wires.

Down -- Ground looks like pin 11 (same as for up) and input looks like pin 10.

Enter -- Ground looks like pin 8 and input looks like pin 7.

3. Ohms check that the wires go from open to short when the button is pressed.

4. Connect wires and test the buttons.


Scott

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I shot  a short video showing how things are testing in windows, I want to ensure we are getting the expected results there first - then i will make my way out to the game... and perform your checks suggested above.

take a look at this video

Are the wipers working as expected? - what should I be seeing for the brake ? 


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=exl6oMLaJhs

Thanks again ! ( this is going to be a shhhlogggg) but if we get this  then the next items are trivial !

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Nice video.  Glad to hear that the buttons are working now.   ;D

I'm not surprised that shorting ground (0v) to the wiper doesn't cause the cursor to move compared to being disconnected. (also 0v)

The odd behavior you see is probably due to a combination of the A/D conversion process and not having the wires/pot connected -- shorting tests are just intended to verify that you have the right wiper pin.

At this point, I'd recommend getting a cheap 5k pot that you can use for testing/troubleshooting.

Add a few wires and molex pins and you've got everything you need to test your molex connector and the U-HID and get it properly configured.   ;D

First thing to configure is setting each pot to a unique axis -- having two pots on one axis will cause problems.


Scott
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:05:54 pm by PL1 »

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Hi Scott -

not sure where to go next ....
Buttons first.

1 Check if the down and enter microswitches are working by checking for continuity between NO and COM during button press.
- Edit: - I tested the factory game and plugged it all back together and everything worked - up , down switches are working and the enter/ start button - so all work - i then confirmed with a multi meter so we have eliminated the possible fault buttons at the arcade side.

2. Ohm out the down and enter button wires from the microswitch to the 15 pin molex to be sure you have correctly identified the wires. -
edit:- what is meant by OHM out - i know OHM is is for Resistance- just not sure am i looking for zero ohms or a particular number or ohms ?

Edit:
I'll double check these - as i think the numbers are different than our earlier posts-
Down -- Ground looks like pin 11 (same as for up) and input looks like pin 10
Enter -- Ground looks like pin 8 and input looks like pin 7.

As for setting axis - I have three (3) pots gas, brake, and angle, - and in the U_HID configuration utility my only options under analog axis are as follows: (which one should I use for brake)
Axis 1 (x) - which i used for angle / steering
Axis 1 (x) with dead zone
Axis 2 (Y)  which I used for throttle
Axis 2 (Y) With Dead zone
Axis 3 (Slider)
Axis 4 (Slider)
Axis 5 (Slider)
Axis 6 (Slider)
Axis 7 (Slider)
Axis 8 (Slider)


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Update 2 for today ...

Well things were not working at all so went back to the game and started to do another pin out ...

what i found out is that we are talking two different things - after a days worth of frustration i now realize when i was counting pins on sega unit ( looking directly at it reading from left to right i was getting different numbers - so I re continuity tested everything and had different numbers than you had.) turns out it all depends  which end of the plug you're numbering from (male end or female side) female side is on the sega machine - where it was going all wrong was when i was making the male end loojing directly at it i was using same numbering scheme - ITS NOT when they connect - you need to look at the FRONT of the female plug and the BACK of the male plug for the pins to line up correctly ..

Any way all said and done
coming out of the sega machine ( the female plug here are the pin outs)
1
2- brake wiper
3- ground steering
4 Shift down
5
6 Shift up
7 steering wiper
8 anaolg ground for  throttle and brake
9 throttle wiper
10 5v steering
11 start/ enter button  ground
12 up ground / down ground
13
14 start / enter
15 5v brake and throttle


The new problem Now - is configuring it all !!!! ARRRRG loaded game and it sort of works but not really - i played with the adjusters in the uhid utility for scale and offset and cant seem to figure out what they are doing???????? tried changing each axis individually and to the extreme but still not right....
the game the bike wants to go backwards and at full throttle goes slow or seems to spin wheel alot ... left and right is not response

Now I need to figure out how to adjust the pots so they work in the game. Any thoughts?




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Quote from: rmwilson
I tested the factory game and plugged it all back together and everything worked - up , down switches are working and the enter/ start button - so all work - i then confirmed with a multi meter so we have eliminated the possible fault buttons at the arcade side.
:applaud:

Quote from: rmwilson
what is meant by OHM out - i know OHM is is for Resistance- just not sure am i looking for zero ohms or a particular number or ohms ?
"Ohming out" is slang for using the ohmmeter to verify which wire is which and that the electrical connections are good like step #10 here.

Generally speaking, <2 ohms is considered acceptable.   ;D



Quote from: rmwilson
As for setting axis - I have three (3) pots gas, brake, and angle, - and in the U_HID configuration utility my only options under analog axis are as follows: (which one should I use for brake)
Use any slider axis you like from 3-8 for brake.

Also if you have trouble keeping the steering wheel centered during gameplay, you MIGHT consider using "Axis 1 (x) with dead zone" but that tweak can wait until everything else is working.

Update 2 for today ...

Well things were not working at all so went back to the game and started to do another pin out ...

what i found out is that we are talking two different things - after a days worth of frustration i now realize when i was counting pins on sega unit ( looking directly at it reading from left to right i was getting different numbers - so I re continuity tested everything and had different numbers than you had.) turns out it all depends  which end of the plug you're numbering from (male end or female side) female side is on the sega machine - where it was going all wrong was when i was making the male end loojing directly at it i was using same numbering scheme - ITS NOT when they connect - you need to look at the FRONT of the female plug and the BACK of the male plug for the pins to line up correctly ..

Any way all said and done
coming out of the sega machine ( the female plug here are the pin outs)
1
2- brake wiper
3- ground steering
4 Shift down
5
6 Shift up
7 steering wiper
8 anaolg ground for  throttle and brake
9 throttle wiper
10 5v steering
11 start/ enter button  ground
12 up ground / down ground
13
14 start / enter
15 5v brake and throttle
Sorry for any confusion, I was using the pin numbers on the schematic linked above.

Glad you got the specific wires/pins worked out.   ;D

The new problem Now - is configuring it all !!!! ARRRRG loaded game and it sort of works but not really - i played with the adjusters in the uhid utility for scale and offset and cant seem to figure out what they are doing???????? tried changing each axis individually and to the extreme but still not right....
the game the bike wants to go backwards and at full throttle goes slow or seems to spin wheel alot ... left and right is not response

Now I need to figure out how to adjust the pots so they work in the game. Any thoughts?
PROTIP: The purpose of troubleshooting is to figure out what is wrong by eliminating possibilities and variables, not adding them.

Analog games introduce a metric butt-load of variables -- never use them for troubleshooting until you have your interface working correctly in windows.   :angry:

If an axis is backward in windows, there are two possible ways to fix it:
- Swap the 5v and ground wires (tabs 1 and 3) to reverse the axis
- U-HID may have a checkbox to reverse the axis (don't recall if it does)

If the axis works correctly in windows but is backward in MAME, reverse the axis using the "Analog Settings" menu.

If an axis is not responsive in windows, check that the wiper voltage varies as you move the pot -- measuring at the molex is better than measuring at the pot for this reading.
- If not, there is either a wiring problem or a bad pot -- LMK and I'll provide further troubleshooting procedures to isolate the fault

Once you have motion on each axis and the correct orientation, there are three stages **done in this order** to get things working right:

  1. Adjust U-HID settings: (working from memory here, but this should get you in the ballpark)

- Scale changes the range of motion
The basic math for scale is max encoder voltage (5v) divided by the range of possible voltages from the potentiometer -- 5v / (Vhigh - Vlow)

- Offset changes the center of the range of motion
The basic math for offset is the average of the low and high voltages from the potentiometer -- (Vlow + Vhigh) / 2

Set your multimeter to Volts DC. (VDC)

Hook the black lead of your multimeter to analog ground and the red lead to the wiper wire of each pot -- measuring at the molex is better than measuring at the pot for these readings.

With the board plugged in, write down the lowest and highest voltages (the ends of the range of motion) for each axis.

If the steering wheel wiper varies from 1.25v - 3.75v and is at 2.5v when centered, that axis is centered (needs no offset) but needs the scale adjusted to double (200%? 2.0x? don't recall the settings values) since 3.75v - 1.25v = 2.5v ==> 1/2 of the possible 5v range of the encoder input.

If the pedal wipers vary from 0v - 3.3v, the axis is not centered (offset needs to be set so the center is at 1.65v) and the scale needs to be set to 1 1/2 times (150%? 1.5x?) since 3.3v ==> 2/3rds of the possible 5v range of the encoder input.

Once the U-HID is correctly configured, you should have motion on each axis that is fairly well centered, balanced, and covers as much range as possible without hitting the edge before you reach the limit of motion. (clipping)

  2. Use the windows gamepad properties window to calibrate the wheel and pedals.

When this is done, you should be able to move the full range on each of the three axes.

  3. After those steps are done, the final tweaks are in the game itself.

Check out BadMouth's sticky here in the Driving sub-forum for details on configuring analog controls.


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2015, 09:44:26 am »
Hey hey thanks for the detailed response... I did play with the sliders (scale and sensitivity for a few hours last night and could not get them) had no idea it was math related LOL ! - that will be today's job!

When you say full range of motion on the access - question - the brake and the throttle start at one point ( not necessary centred) and only move in one direction up the grid ... for clarification - lets say i see the throttle in the middle of the square in the grid when i twist it- the x only moved in one direction ( up) then returns to centre - should it go from the top edge to bottom edge of the grid?  ( or just from starting point then up or down and then back to mid starting point?)


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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2015, 11:30:30 am »
When you say full range of motion on the access - question - the brake and the throttle start at one point ( not necessary centred) and only move in one direction up the grid ... for clarification - lets say i see the throttle in the middle of the square in the grid when i twist it- the x only moved in one direction ( up) then returns to centre - should it go from the top edge to bottom edge of the grid?  ( or just from starting point then up or down and then back to mid starting point?)
As you twist the throttle from nothing (lower cursor) to full throttle (upper cursor), the axis should only move in one direction.

The attached pic shows an example of the range of Y-axis motion (red bar) as you go through the correction and calibration process:

1. No U-HID corrections

2. U-HID corrections of offset (moves the range to the center) and scale. (changes the height of the red bar)

For the sake of this example, assume that scale is set to the highest setting.

In practice, adjust scale to get the red bar as close to the last picture as possible without hitting the edge when you turn the pot as far as the controls allow.

3. The windows calibration process then takes the range of values that the U-HID puts out and stretches it to the fullest range possible.

The less that calibration needs to stretch the range, the better.


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2015, 02:10:21 pm »
Okay so here are my three pot readings - with the default set in the uhid configuration tool for each axis

Throttle - stationary just sitting there is at .74 - when i turn it all the way its 4.85 volts
Brake - stationary not pulled 0.00 when I pull the brake in its 1.23 volts
Steering - measures 2.57 sitting there but not sure the bike is 100% centred there is some play and i can adjust it a bit with a small bump and it registers 2.5 - so its pretty close... when I lean it all the way to the right its 1.06 volts and when leaned all the way to the left its 4.05 volts.

Thought I'd post this - and then go back re-read your description as how to calculate it all ....

 

« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 02:15:09 pm by rmwilson »

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2015, 02:58:21 pm »
Okay so here are my three pot readings - with the default set in the uhid configuration tool for each axis

Throttle - stationary just sitting there is at .74 - when i turn it all the way its 4.85 volts
Brake - stationary not pulled 0.00 when I pull the brake in its 1.23 volts
Steering - measures 2.57 sitting there but not sure the bike is 100% centred there is some play and i can adjust it a bit with a small bump and it registers 2.5 - so its pretty close... when I lean it all the way to the right its 1.06 volts and when leaned all the way to the left its 4.05 volts.

Thought I'd post this - and then go back re-read your description as how to calculate it all ....
Throttle and steering look like they'll do well with a few minor tweaks.   ;D

Brake will need an offset that moves the center from 0.62v up to 2.5v and about a 4x scale. (if the U-HID will do that  :dunno)


Scott

P.S. Does the brake handle travel a long distance before the voltage moves off 0v? 

If so, you might be able to adjust the mechanism to cover a wider range of voltages.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 03:03:35 pm by PL1 »

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2015, 06:37:23 pm »
 :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:


So so frustrated - spent about 5 and half hours in the garage  trying to get it to work ... I was not getting consistent results... for example had thee throtle working (in the game) brake and steering continue to be a challenge i'd go back out of game to uhid config tool and change one 'scale' and re load game and all of a sudden the back wheel would just spin where as two seconds earlier it was accelerating as I'd expect  :banghead:

I'll have to make another video - in windows I am seeing left and right and throttle and brake work, 

In the game never seemed to turn fast enough or id have to lean the full way over to get a subtle slow gradual turn ... so slow in fact it would drive off the track before it would come close to turning ...

i'll shoot a video as there seems to be all kinds of entertainment ... :(

Thanks for all your help - here's to a merry christmas!

Stay tuned -  :badmood:

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headaches)
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2015, 07:48:22 pm »
Ahem . . . Why are you in an analog game while you're (apparently) still getting inconsistent control response and trying to tweak the U-HID settings?

See my earlier post regarding analog games and variables.

BTW, Santa wants to know if you prefer anthracite, lignite, or bituminus.   >:D    :lol


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2015, 01:06:37 am »
lol the eleves mad me do it ! i swear I an explain!

In windows i saw the little grid where axis' were dancing up and down left and right -, squeezing the brake would have a bar go left and right ... i played with scale adding one or two or three (separately, saw the responses and decided to revert back firing these are my best settings) with excitement and images of sugar plum fairys dancing in my head i thought its time to play the game.... also helped me understand where my issues were so i could keep going back and tweaking it in windows and uhid configuration ... seeing the brake not work at all told me i needed to fix stuff... then seeing throttle work as expected s like okay cool only two more to go ... but make an adjustment to steering or brake and then all of a sudden throttle did not work right----I did not ignore your previous post excitement got the better of me..

did find something really odd - the throttle when it snaps back would leave configuration cursor in the middle 9 times out ten then one time it would be at the very top of the grid... i noticed by playing with it for an inordinate amount of time... that you can rotate it back manually literally just a hair more and it changes what registers on the joy.cpl grid in windows. I checked it with a multi meter and the reading changed slightly too ( cant remember now what it was) 

Sigh bought this cab last October so been 14 months just getting excited to be so so so close! :)

ps fyi its not a mame game i am playing its the real PC version game modern day moto gp 14 and 15 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/355130/)


As angry as I am I will back at it tomorrow fighting through it all ! I really want this to work !


Scott you your family have a very merry Christmas we'll chat soon ! - ps tell santa i  like bituminus and a plug and play adapter that just works :) 


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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2015, 10:46:10 am »
No worries -- figured it was something like that.   ;D

Just trying to help you build a solid foundation from wiring to U-HID to windows calibration to game configuration so your project is as reliable as possible.  :cheers:


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2015, 06:22:28 pm »
here's what its looking like now...

I have played with the scale and offset to get the the most movement on the grid in windows...

Mine is not 'ranging' like your earlier jpegs with a top and bottom its just a grid (not a high low indicator point)

let me know your thoughts is this what we want ???

the brake is NOT set as a z axis on the uhid its just set as axis 3 slider the windows is saying z axis.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=p4wXnf8JJrU

thanks,

Ryan

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2015, 08:04:24 pm »
I have played with the scale and offset to get the the most movement on the grid in windows...
Looks good.   ;D

Mine is not 'ranging' like your earlier jpegs with a top and bottom its just a grid (not a high low indicator point)
Crosshairs were copied/moved and the red bar was added in MS paint to show how far up and down the crosshairs might travel.

Your video shows what the window looks like normally.   ;D

let me know your thoughts is this what we want ???

the brake is NOT set as a z axis on the uhid its just set as axis 3 slider the windows is saying z axis.
Are the throttle gears returning to the same spot when the cursor sticks or are they getting stuck?

When the cursor is at the normal resting place, use a a sharpie to mark where a tooth on one gear meets a gap on the other gear. (red dots)

When you release the throttle, the gears should return to the position where the marked tooth and gap meet.

If they don't, the binding/excess friction could be caused by a return-spring problem, physical mialignment of the gears, or a sticky pot shaft.

The sometimes-sticky throttle could also be caused by a dirty/bad pot.

You might want to change the brake input on the U-HID from axis 3 to axis 4 since windows sees axis 3 as the Z-axis which has the well-known 4:1 (scroll wheel) problem.


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2015, 11:08:59 pm »
Its a Christmas  miracle!!!

OMG - isn't that what the kids say these days... you know just trying to be hip and all !

Okay so here's tonights update.

ITS WORKING - maybe I need to repeat that - ITS WORKING !!!!!!!!

Loaded game, steering and brake and throttle are working its now " Playable" - not sure if its a 100% but I can actually ride finish laps and such. I felt i could do with a bit more turning changed the scale by one point and loaded back up it would not respond - is it really that sensitive?  The brake is working but to me seems like it should slow down faster  I am going to try and change that tomorrow by one or two points in the uhid utility on the scale slider and see what happens.

Question: I set the uhid sliders then went to windows 'calibrate' - what happens if i don't re-calibrate and i change the UHID scale/ does it adjust on the fly or should i re-calibrate every time?

One the things that is most interesting yesterday  when i calibrated i went to the absolute extreme x axis by REALLY leaning hard on bike...thinking that would give me full spectrum all the way to the left and right ... in one of tonights calibrations i just sorta went left and awh kinda right (not really trying at all and certainly not going full lean for full spectrum)  in the calibration and it works the best go figure?

As for gears and sticky throttle its bizarre its literally a hair amount that will make it jump from the middle to the top on the axis -just sort touch the grip and tweak it back ever so slightly not sure if its the spring or what its not binding - i will have to tweak and play with it a bit

If i can get it to turn a bit faster with a tad more break it might be a okay .... how would i get more breaking force --- changing the scale or what? (i'll also change it to a different axis see how that goes.. )
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 08:40:01 am by rmwilson »

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2015, 01:17:35 am »
ITS WORKING !!!!!!!!
:applaud:

Question: I set the uhid sliders then went to windows 'calibrate' - what happens if i don't re-calibrate and i change the UHID scale/ does it adjust on the fly or should i re-calibrate every time?
:dunno You've dealt with U-HID's analog functions more than I have.

I never connected anything analog to the U-HID-G -- just looked at the manual and applied basic electronic know-how.

One the things that is most interesting yesterday  when i calibrated i went to the absolute extreme x axis by REALLY leaning hard on bike...thinking that would give me full spectrum all the way to the left and right ... in one of tonights calibrations i just sorta went left and awh kinda right in the calibration and it works the best go figure?
Smaller range of input voltages during calibration ==> more "stretch" applied by windows.

As for gears and sticky throttle its bizzare its literally a hair amount that will make it jump from the middle to the top on the axis -just sort touch the grip and tweak it back ever so slightly not sure if its the spring or what its not binding - i will have to tweak and play with it a bit
If the gears and shaft are only moving a tiny bit but the cursor jumps like that, you probably have some corrosion (or maybe dirt or damage) in the pot.

When the cursor is "stuck" in the middle (lower voltage than expected), the voltage drop may be caused by corrosion/dirt/damage adding resistance between the resistive element and the wiper.

If i can get it to turn a bit faster with a tad more break it might be a okay .... how would i get more breaking force --- changing the scale or what? (i'll also change it to a different axis see how that goes.. )
Limiting the range during calibration may give you more response (larger steps) at the expense of fine control.

Concerning the Z-axis -- On second thought, there is no need to change it unless it is:

  1. Too sensitive -- the scroll wheel problem may only apply to optical (mouse scroll wheel) inputs on the Z-axis.

  2. Causing scrolling problems in your Front End program.  Ran into that problem here when testing the 4-axis firmware for KADESTICK.


Scott

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2021, 12:19:44 pm »
Did this ever get finished? I have the exact same project ready to go but a cheat sheet would be much appreciated!

rmwilson

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2021, 11:25:22 pm »
you are not going to believe this .... I sold the unit I was so frustrated .... but I am looking at buying it back next week .... been 6 years and i am ready to tackle it again met a guy on here that has made a way better solution - and it connects to a console - ps4 so i play moto gp 20!!!!!! Looking to start the project all over again!



spunkyjnr

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Re: 5k pots and setup with UHID for Sega Manx TT -> PC conversion (headakes)
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2021, 04:20:32 pm »
I thought about that option but want ideally to play hang on right through to new stuff. I've got the uhid already so I'd better try that first I guess hahaha