Newbie Survey - Controls?

[RetroJames]

Sorry for the long thread, but no one else wants to listen.  I am quite sure my wife and others think I have gone mad.  

I am in alot of trouble.  After rediscovering MAME a few weeks ago I stumbled onto the projects you lunatics have built and are building.  The first one I saw was Mr. Salty's Defender.  (http://www.mrsalty.net/index.shtml)  I think I found it searching "Defender" as that was my game of choice.  I used to caddy in Illinois and the course had a Defender in the caddyshack.  Jeez, what a racket.  I don't think I ever brought any money home after that!

Anyway, I have it bad now.  I have been purusing these projects and am totally hooked.  I am quite certain I will never be happy until I finish a cabinet and I have already started envisioning a sit down driving cab in the future.  While I have preliminary designs, some controls ordered (Bob Roberts Rules), and a working title for my marqee, I am torn on a few areas.  The first of which is the controls.  

The questions I am posing to all of you are as follows:

I am considering my control layout(s) and have the following requirements:

1. Must incorporate the correct Defender/Stargate control layout.

2. Must incorporate fairly accurate Centipede control layout or the wife will never let it in the door.

3. Will require spinner for Tempest, Tron.

4. I do enjoy fighting games, will have to incorporate the joystick 7 button layout.

Questions / Survey:

1. Please weigh in on these items:

a. Rotating Controls ala 1UP, Frostillicus, etc?

b. Multiple panels (can these be hot-swapped?)

c. The mega-panel all in one?

d. Combo mega-panel / multiple embedded panels?

2. Joystick survey -

What is your fav?

3. 2 player fighting with center controls or 4 player with center controls?

I suppose those are enough.  I know the questions are vauge and much of this is dependent and subjective, but I am really asking for your opinions, experiences, preferences, and those, "shoulda, coulda, wouldas" etc.  I have my pre-existing ideas, but want to hear from the masters.  Thanks in advance for any assistance you folks can provide.

Game On! -1hookedspacecadet

[abrannan]

Questions / Survey:

1. Please weigh in on these items:

a. Rotating Controls ala 1UP, Frostillicus, etc?

This is a wonderful setup, but can be difficult to execute properly.  Make sure you build prototypes if this is the route you want to go.

 

b. Multiple panels (can these be hot-swapped?)

This is, IMO, your best option.  Create modular disconect for your encoder ( I used D-sub connectors).  and you can create as many control panels as you want.  This allows you to do more than three CPs, which is your limit with a rotating setup.

c. The mega-panel all in one?

Personally I think this looks bad and it's near impossible to get everything in a comfortable position so the games feel right.

d. Combo mega-panel / multiple embedded panels?

The swappable modules idea can work, but, like the rotating CP, it can be hard to pull off.

2. Joystick survey -

What is your fav?

I'm prefectly happy with my Happ Supers.  But I'm also not all that picky.

3. 2 player fighting with center controls or 4 player with center controls?

I'd say 2-player setup.  Unless you have a group of friends who are TMNT, x-men, or Gauntlet fanatics, you can get by just fine with a 2-player setup and take turns.  

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow, great summary abrannan!  I was thinking this would be tough to answer and decided I didn't need to after reading your post.  Great job!

[Lilwolf]

A few things to add.

1) Comps are better for fighting games because you have a diagonal down.  Supers are better for older games (gyruss, timepilots) because its round and feels round... Also better for Zangief super slam moves...  Ultimates are crap versions of Compititions...

2) 4 player control panels are FUN for birthday parties for kids ect.  But they are a pain to configure since you will want the middle two to be player 1 and 2 all the rest of the time.  I build a whole frontend just to take care of this problem... But I ended up just building a 2 player control panel to solve the problem...  

So you use the 4player control panel only every so often... but they are great when you do... Also make sure not to rotate the joysticks so that you can play 2player smashtv and total carnage!

3) Rotating control panels are VERY nice... I wouldn't say it's a great starting project... but heck... you get the plans... go for it.  You are limited....

Hot swapping is the way to go if you plan to continue adding crap.  Heck... I have 500 bucks of old controls laying around my floor that I haven't build in a control panel yet... It becomes a habit.

Heck... If I went with a rotating control panel... I would be done... heck years ago I would have been done...

NOW I'M NEVER EVER DONE... And my wife is pissed about it  

4) Defender is a GREAT game... and VERY hard to 'hack' with the wrong parts.  The trouble is the reverse button needs to be so close to the joystick, that other joysticks don't handle it.  Original defender joysticks go on ebay all the time for 20 or so for a used one... to 50 - 70 for a NOS (new old stock) one.    But don't build a defender control panel with anything else.... You will also need a router to get it into a control panel if its wood.

[abrannan]

Wow, great summary abrannan!  I was thinking this would be tough to answer and decided I didn't need to after reading your post.  Great job!

Thank you.  Who knew I learned so much by reading this site?

[SirPeale]

Okay, can we keep this to one forum?  This guy has posted this same message in nearly every forum.

[hyiu]

before answering... would appreciate if in the future....
there's no need to post the same message in multiple forums...
(there's an exact same one in prj announcement...)

anyway...

you want defender... (original setup...)
centipede... (original setup...)
tron... tempest... (close to original...)
fighters... (and others...)

I don't think you can do it all on 1 panels....
(all "playable" ??... yes... but not original setup...)

so... 1 BIG mega panel... I think its not a good idea....

rotating panel is of course a good idea...
but then how's your wood work skill ??....
(my personal opinion -- which might not be true at all -- is that to finish up a cab with rotating panel... and everything would works fine and fits snugs... and look nice... you'll need some wood working skill...

I would say swapping panel is your best bet....
is it hot swappable ??... yes... you can use USB... and you can just swap out the controls and not the interface... then you can actually reuse the interface....

which joystick ??... I would say... for fighters... put in a couple of competition.... then have a dedeciated 4 way for the older games....

how to lay it out on multiple panels ??... that's up to you imaginations....

and 2 players or 4 players ??..... depends on how much space you have....
if you're kind of sequeezing a cab in the middle of your apt... maybe a 2 player one is a good idea....
but if you have a house and a whole basement at your dispose... I would say.... make a few cabs !!!... haaa haa haa...

ok... maybe the first one... a 2 player oriented cab is a good start....

hope it helps....  

[soslo]

a. Rotating Controls ala 1UP, Frostillicus, etc?

These are great. Frosty and 1up have done an excellent job. There is a matrix style one as well. I am currently doing the wiring for my rotating panel. It helps keep the clutter out of the panel.

b. Multiple panels (can these be hot-swapped?)

These can be hot-swapped. They are much easier to design/implement. The problem is taking the extra time to swap panels. Your guest is over and yells "Centipede!" to which you reply, "of course, let me just unhook this panel and put on the centipede panel." It kinda brings them out of the surreal this is a real arcade machine mode.  May or may not be a big deal for you.

c. The mega-panel all in one?

Do you like your clothes in drawers or heaped in a pile?

d. Combo mega-panel / multiple embedded panels?

The two-tier designs wouldn't be *as* bad.

2. Joystick survey -
What is your fav?

I like the Competitions for regular use, though I'd like a tad more spring - they are a little light. LS-30s are my favorite, but not suited for most games.

3. 2 player fighting with center controls or 4 player with center controls?

2 player. If you want to do a successful 4 player cab, you need to have a *big* cab. It needs to be wide enough for everyone to stand comfortably around it and see the screen. The controls shouldn't be at an angle because that messes most people up. Go to an arcade and check out a simpsons or similar cab - they are wide cabs and the panels are even wider.

IMHO

Good luck, have fun...this is a blast...and an addiction...

[RetroJames]

All,

Thanks loads for weighing in on this topic.  It really did help.  Also, sorry about posting the thread on multiple forums.  I know better, but was pretty tired when I was posting and did not use the best judgement.

I have been leaning towards the "mega board" as I really did not like the idea of switching out panels.  Of course I would love to build the rotator and I have the woodworking skills to do so,  but time and money is always of the essence.

I do have a good deal of space so the mega board would not be a space issue.  However, I do like things to be neat and the mega board is decidedly busy and I can see how it might get old knocking around in a maze of buttons and joysticks.

As I said the rotator is awesome, I really don't like copying others, but it really looks like the way to go so in order to keep my options open, get playing, and get the bulk of the work done to make it presentable to the wife, I am thinking I will build the cab with interchangeable CPs, but design the cab so that it could be converted to rotator later if desired.  

That solution seems to give me the most options.  I can either go for the rotator later or as someone suggested build another cab.  Somehow I see 1 upright leaning more towards fighting games and sidescrollers, 1 cocktail for pac, galaga, vert screen stuff, and a driving cab for road blasters, afterburner, etc.  sigh...

yup I got it reaaaalll bad....

Thanks Again and GAME ON!

[RetroJames]

And please if anyone else can provide some more insight, please, please, do!  Thanks!

[soslo]

remember that the main cost is not building the rotating panels...but putting the controls in it. You could build a rotating panel setup, and only fill one side. Then when you get more funds, populate the second panel and so on...

[RetroJames]

2) 4 player control panels are FUN for birthday parties for kids ect.  But they are a pain to configure since you will want the middle two to be player 1 and 2 all the rest of the time.  I build a whole frontend just to take care of this problem... But I ended up just building a 2 player control panel to solve the problem...  

FYI: I saw a cab that had the 4 playercontrols, and I asked the guy about the 1-2-3-4 player setup, he had them configured from left to right, 3-1-2-4.  One and tweo in the middle, other players on the fringe.  Just an fyi. Thanks!

[RetroJames]

RE: Cost is in the controls, not the rotator -

Yes, I would think that is mostly true although I am actually at more of a loss for time than money (slightly) .  Unless I could get some pretty specific plans and a little tech support, I fear I would get bogged down in the works.  If I build the cab so that it can accept the rotating control panel (RCP) later, i can actually play on the cab, impress the wife with my "accomplishment", and wow my friends.  I could then build the RCP on the side or as I said, move onto a second cab.  RCP might be a must though considering my requirements.  Must have Defender CP.  I also want to play fighting games standing up.   UGGHHHH.  Does this mean 2 uprights, 1 cocktail, and a driver??? Jeez I see how this hobby could be a problem... Akkk

[hooded_paladin]

I think the best multi-function panel you could make would consist of:

a center panel, modular (you can take out and rearrange control types) that will hold a 2-player fighting format, 1, 2, or 3 trackballs if you really want it, spinner(s), tron stick, and maybe a panel specially made with the defender layout.

and two places on the side for extra "wings" to clip on when you want 4-players.

The control panel is compact when you want it, but can be 4-players and it can be rearranged to many different things

But the thing is, we can't choose for you.  Which is why I think most of these threads are pointless.  A better question would be along the lines of "here's what I'm looking for ... any comments or unique ideas"

http://users.adelphia.net/~bsturk/mame/controls.html  this is a very good example.  He made a good-looking modular panel using standard rack mounts, and panels for joysticks (duh) , trackballs, even specially spaced ones for defender.

[soslo]

bottom of this pages for decently detailed plans:
http://www.1uparcade.com/arcade-const-plans.html

[RetroJames]

Thanks for the link.  I haven't been to that site since he posted the plans or I missed them last time.  

[snekse]

and two places on the side for extra "wings" to clip on when you want 4-players.

The control panel is compact when you want it, but can be 4-players

I was thinking the same thing :-)  But I have enough room that I was thinking of building a 4 player rotating panel !!!  Might have to go Showcase style for that though...

[Nannuu]

I am in the same postition here.  I've been fiddling with my 4 player rotating control panel layout for months.  I did have plans to add a wheel on mine until this weekend when I picked up a nice Mamable driving cab so now all I need is lots'o controls on my panel to play everything else.

The main problem is clutter/confusion associated with trying to play so many different games and the fact that some people won't have a clue which stick/button to use when playing.

I had copied Frosty's control panel layouts since I think they are perfect except for the missing 3/4 players.  But doing so and adding the 3rd and 4th players on the sides makes that third panel with the 2 topfires and LS-30s redundant I think?  I like the fact that I could play Ikari Warriors and Smash TV on the same panel but I wouldn't need the extra 8 way from the wings sitting out there.

So far it seems best to put a topfire on players 3/4 stationary wings.  Not exactly ideal for the 3 and 4 players but it does help to cut some mess.  This way you can still put your SF/NG joys and buttons on the first panel.  On the second you can place a somewhat Tron style arrangement.  Again these first two are just like Frosty's.  But since you now have the top fires on the outsides you can make a more specialized third panel.  I've added a Defender/Stargate style to my post here with some LS-30s and a 2 way on there.  I don't suppose I need to explain each joy/button on there as most of you will understand.

Anyway I've been moving my stuff around on my panel for what seems like forever now and everytime I think I've got it just the way I like it I decide it is too messy or not enough or I can't play 'insert title' without this change.........

I hope this helps some.
Nannuu

[RetroJames]

To reply 16 and 17,

I am confused, how are those panels "rotating?"  Aren't they just interchangeable?  I am missing something I think.  

[Nannuu]

Mine will be rotating.  There would only be 3 panels similar to 1up, Frosty, Mametrix etc.  I have more shown because I am trying to figure out what I want on each panel so these are just layouts so far.  The thin white lines are the breaks where the panel will rotate and the wing are stationary on the outsides.

[telengard]

I agree with most of the suggestions here.  At a minimum make swappable panels if you want to be able to play all the games you mentioned the way they were MEANT to be played.  

If you've got money to burn and copious amounts of free time make modular panels.  You'll never be done with your cabinet and in this hobby it can be a good thing.    

No retentive cabinet is complete without a rotating monitor also.  

I'm a big fan of Defender and it just isn't the same without the real joystick!
I tried a Happs 2 way and it just stunk.

Have fun, it's a great hobby.

[RetroJames]

Yes, that requirement HAS to remain.  I think it is one thing if you never played the games much on the real deal, but for me, the feel is really important.  Like telengard (cool cab and control solution) said, defender really needs the true controls.  If that rbutton isn't where my thumb looks for it, I'm a goner.  I picked up a happ and I know i need to get a true defender stick.  I can already tell I won't like it.



telengard, do you unscrew each one of those panels when you switch or is there a quick release I am not seeing?

[telengard]

Yes, that requirement HAS to remain.  I think it is one thing if you never played the games much on the real deal, but for me, the feel is really important.  Like telengard (cool cab and control solution) said, defender really needs the true controls.  If that rbutton isn't where my thumb looks for it, I'm a goner.  I picked up a happ and I know i need to get a true defender stick.  I can already tell I won't like it.



telengard, do you unscrew each one of those panels when you switch or is there a quick release I am not seeing?

I looked into "quick release" solutions and other quicker ways to attach the panels but they just weren't sturdy enough.  They had to hold up to my Robotron games to work for me.  But to answer your question I have to unscrew them.   At the most this takes me about 5 minutes if I have to change *every* panel which is rare.  A center joystick and buttons on the sides works for like 75% of the games so I usually keep it like that.  I also use a handheld motorized screwdriver so it goes quick.  For me, the time it takes is well, well worth the flexibility.  Others may be annoyed with having to change stuff <shrug>.

You're dead on about Defender.  People who have played the real deal have that muscle memory thing going on for the reverse button.  With a standard footprint joystick you can't put the reverse button in the right spot ( I've tried it, and it felt all wrong ).  

[RetroJames]

I already posted something about this in projects, but I am really torn here.  I have what I think is a rippin'schematic for a cabinet I thought of yesterday.  I want to post it for opinions, but am feeling a bit proprietary...I almost WANT to post it so I can put a timestamp on it, even though I suppose it doesn't really matter.  Can't tell if I would get upset if someone built it before I finished mine, I suppose if they did I should feel flattered.  Heck it's probably already been done anyway, but I can't find one like it anywhere.  ugghh

What would you guys do?  

[paigeoliver]

My eventual answer to the controls question ended up being separate machines. It really did seem to be the best choice. Each machine has it's own feel.

I went with.

Horizontal monitor, streetfighter controls. (Finished)

Vertical monitor, pac-man stick, 2 buttons. (Finished)

Vertical monitor, 8-way joystick, 2 buttons. (have cabinet and all parts, just need to assemble)

rotating monitor, spinner, trackball, 3 buttons . (have cabinet and all parts, just need to assemble)

Adding to all that mess are a smattering of original dedicated machines, a pinball machine, and a few podium control panels that butt up to the machines to add different control panels (still building these, making Defender, Q*Bert, and a few others).

[Rocky]

I went the route of making swappable panels.

First,  Frankenpanel -- 2-8ways with 6 buttons each, 3" trackball with 2 mouse buttons, 2 spinners, 1- 4way

Second, Dedicated Q*bert panel  (no art)

Third, Spyhunter panel (analog wheel with trigger and thumb buttons)


With this method, you can always scrap one and build a replacement if you don't like one.

My main problem with swappable panels is storage for the spare panels.  My cabinet just doesn't have the space inside for them.


Rocky

[RetroJames]

Thanks again to everyone for all the input.  Really great stuff.  I posted my preliminary sketches in the project section under, "My Cabinet - New? Rotating Panel Design - Rough Drafts."  I have alot of reasons for going the way I am, much of it based on all your input.  Take a look and please let me know waht you think.