Electronic skin for multi-colored buttons

[Yvan256]

Hi everyone,

I've been exchanging a few emails with someone from Kent Displays (kentdisplays.com) about their Reflex electronic skin product, to see if it would be possible to make small round plates to put inside clear Sanwa OBSC-30 buttons.

After reading a bit more and a few more details about their products, he told me the skin can be thermoformed, so maybe the skin could cover the whole inside of the clear top (the top and a few millimeters of the sides), meaning we could get dynamic colored buttons, up to eight custom colors (that could be matched to, say, the colors of the Happ Competition buttons). I'm not sure where the limit of eight colors comes from, I'm waiting for more details about this.

If all the technical details work out, it would mean dynamically colored buttons that are NOT flashlights. Because frankly, not everyone is a fan of LED lighting.

My questions are:
- how many would be interested in such a product? And how many buttons would you need?
- would Ultimarc or someone else be interested in manufacturing this with the help of Kent Displays?
- how much would you pay for each button, on top of the price of the button itself?
- would the Sanwa OBSC-30 be okay, or would most people prefer another type of button? I know I'm a fan of USA-style buttons with convex tops myself, but AFAIK there's no such buttons similar to the OBSC-30 with a clear top for an insert at the top.


Edit: I just received a reply, their minimum order quantity for custom manufacturing is 50K units...

At 12 buttons per person (let's say a two players cabinet with 6 buttons per player) it would require about 4200 people to hit 50K units. I also still need to hear about pricing, it will probably be next week.

If it's not too expensive, count me in for at least 12 buttons.

Alright, we only need 4199 more people, who's in?   

[Unstupid]

What benefit does this have over the current LED lit buttons?

[Nephasth]

Flashlights?

[SavannahLion]

I'm not sure where the limit of eight colors comes from, I'm waiting for more details about this.

I find it interesting that they would have a brochure on their "* Under development" product but nothing for their current offering.

But looking over their brochure and white papers, it's easy to guess where the 8 colors comes from. It probably comes from an 7 line limit (ie 8 bits) Switch to 16 or 32 lines and you'd probably see a corresponding increase if they bother to manufacture such a thing. In a nutshell, it's probably using the cheapest controller possible. Some might think about that and wonder, if 8 bits are used to control the colors, why aren't there 9 colors? (For when all the colors are "off" there should be a base color), the 8th bit might be used as a 1-wire communication source or whatever. I didn't look too deep into that but it makes perfect sense. It's not like you're transmitting an assload of data.

Which brings me to my next point. Someone is going to have to figure out how to feed 8 super small wires up into that thing or pack the empty space inside that button with a super small shift register or microcontroller or whatever and work out a communication protocol back to the PC. There are all sorts of ways to attack this but the end result is going to be the same, this isn't going to be a cheap solution.

It's an interesting product though. But you're going to have to find out if it can come in under a tight budget.

[Yvan256]

Flashlights?

Buttons aren't supposed to emit light, they're supposed to be plastic molded into a specific color. Those looks like christmas lights to me. Not to mention that only the rings are color-lighted. The most recent review about LED-lit buttons also shows that getting a uniform color distribution is very hard, especially the top of the button.

At this point I'm thinking about a rotating plate that can elevate and lower, with buttons in multiple colors, with a hole in the control panel. Obviously it would be limited to a single row of buttons such as the Neo-Geo setup, unless you wanted to go with a really, really complex setup that would look like a modern vending machine for each and every button. The volume required under the control panel would be huge, to say the least.

[Nephasth]

Buttons aren't supposed to emit light, they're supposed to be plastic molded into a specific color.

Tell that to Atari and many others… And if they're supposed to be molded into a specific color, doesn't that mean they shouldn't change colors?

[Yvan256]

What benefit does this have over the current LED lit buttons?

It would prevent the control panel to look like a christmas tree. 

Buttons aren't supposed to emit light, they're supposed to be plastic molded into a specific color.

Tell that to Atari and many others… And if they're supposed to be molded into a specific color, doesn't that mean they shouldn't change colors?

I'm not talking about those little dome buttons, I'm talking about the main pushbuttons. Look at all the classics like Donkey Kong, Pac-Man, Rygar, Rastan, etc. No christmas lights on those cabinets. And when I say molded in color, I mean the color is reflective, they do not emit light.

I don't want to offend anyone here with my comments, but I would also like others to accept the fact that not everyone likes lighted buttons. 

[Trip]

Making fun of the people's setups that actually like color changing buttons is not the best way to build a customer base.  It's actually a pretty stupid strategy. 

[RandyT]

I don't want to offend anyone here with my comments, but I would also like others to accept the fact that not everyone likes lighted buttons. 

Spock does 

[Nephasth]

Making fun of the people's setups that actually like color changing buttons is not the best way to build a customer base.  It's actually a pretty stupid strategy.

+1. I'm all for new developments and options in the hobby, but you came out of the gate on the wrong foot with this one.

Some things to think about:
-You'll need to develop software to change the buttons' colors on a game by game basis. After all, why would you want to use a program like LEDBlinky that's designed to control xmas trees?
-Colors.ini has more than 8 colors, so you'll need to either make a new one or go through and edit the existing one.
-This whole idea sounds extremely cost prohibitive. People don't really enjoy spending $5+ a button, this sounds like it may be $10+ per button.
-What about the rims of the buttons? No color changing love?
-Will each button need it's own PCB (as shown)? Or will you be able to have one control board for all the buttons (lower price perhaps)?

[Yvan256]

Making fun of the people's setups that actually like color changing buttons is not the best way to build a customer base.  It's actually a pretty stupid strategy.

I'm trying to help the community, not make fun of anyone. I'm also not trying to build any customer base. I'm not planning to build any product myself, I'm just trying to see if anyone would be interested in non-lighted, color-changing buttons, trying to figure if such a thing would be possible at all and connecting manufacturers together, like Kent Displays and Ultimarc, for example. Sometimes all the technology is available but the manufacturers aren't even aware of other potential markets. I'm sure the manufacturers of color e-ink displays aren't aware of the potential market for dynamic arcade marquees. In that case, IMHO, resorting to ultra-wide LCD displays is acceptable since marquees were backlit.

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. We can't have opinions anymore? What about people who have two dozen buttons, five joysticks, a trackball and a spinner on a single control panel? A lot of people make fun of them, yet I'm sure the owners are proud of their accomplishment.

The hard thing about comments on forums is that you don't hear the tone of the comments. I wasn't making fun of anyone nor was I trying to be sarcastic or anything. I just don't like lighted buttons, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You may like lighted buttons and think they're just fine, that's your opinion and you're also entitled to it.

[Yvan256]

Some things to think about:
-You'll need to develop software to change the buttons' colors on a game by game basis. After all, why would you want to use a program like LEDBlinky that's designed to control xmas trees?
-Colors.ini has more than 8 colors, so you'll need to either make a new one or go through and edit the existing one.
-This whole idea sounds extremely cost prohibitive. People don't really enjoy spending $5+ a button, this sounds like it may be $10+ per button.
-What about the rims of the buttons? No color changing love?
-Will each button need it's own PCB (as shown)? Or will you be able to have one control board for all the buttons (lower price perhaps)?

First, let me say that I know nothing about things like LEDBlinky, etc. I don't use Windows so there's a lot of options not available as far as emulators go.

LED-lighted buttons already cost more than 5$USD+ per button once you take the controller into account. Maybe not 10$USD but pretty close. If you don't live in the USA, shipping gets expansive pretty fast, then there's the customs charges, etc. It can become a very expensive hobby, to say the least.

The rims should also be able to change color, of course. However, from the emails I've exchanged so far, there seems to be severe limitations on the molding process. I'm not even sure yet if the skin can be molded to the shape of the plunger. Worst case scenario, the skin would be a single flat disc, used as an insert for clear buttons. In the ideal setup the plastic itself would be able to change to multiple colors, but we don't have such technology at the moment. The best I've seen is two-colors plastic, activated by heat, sunlight or electrical current.

As for the controller, I'm also awaiting details about it. Hopefully a single controller will be able to control at least 6~8 buttons.

[Trip]

Making fun of the people's setups that actually like color changing buttons is not the best way to build a customer base.  It's actually a pretty stupid strategy.

I'm trying to help the community, not make fun of anyone. I'm also not trying to build any customer base. I'm not planning to build any product myself, I'm just trying to see if anyone would be interested in non-lighted, color-changing buttons, trying to figure if such a thing would be possible at all and connecting manufacturers together, like Kent Displays and Ultimarc, for example. Sometimes all the technology is available but the manufacturers aren't even aware of other potential markets. I'm sure the manufacturers of color e-ink displays aren't aware of the potential market for dynamic arcade marquees. In that case, IMHO, resorting to ultra-wide LCD displays is acceptable since marquees were backlit.

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. We can't have opinions anymore? What about people who have two dozen buttons, five joysticks, a trackball and a spinner on a single control panel? A lot of people make fun of them, yet I'm sure the owners are proud of their accomplishment.

The hard thing about comments on forums is that you don't hear the tone of the comments. I wasn't making fun of anyone nor was I trying to be sarcastic or anything. I just don't like lighted buttons, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You may like lighted buttons and think they're just fine, that's your opinion and you're also entitled to it.

Well people like Andy at Ultimarc would like to have a customer base if they are going to sell something like this, pissing off the people who buy things like this is not going to give Andy any incentive to join up with Kent Displays if he can't sell to the people that want this type of product.  The people with the flashlights and the people who currently want the flashlights are going to be the market audience for these.  The people who don't like color changing buttons aren't going to be interested in color changing no matter what you do with it.  So instead of blasting people with flashlights, try saying something positive about your product instead of attacking negatives of other people's products.  It will give your idea much more a chance of survival instead of everyone just getting fed up with you and not caring about what you have to offer.

I am interested in your product, but hearing you knock the only option currently on the market that I chose to buy just makes me not want to purchase anything that comes from this...  Just my opinion on how you should approach this...

[Yvan256]

About my "flashlight" comment, some of the options out there really seem to be way too bright: RGB Pushbutton Showdown.

The people who don't like color changing buttons aren't going to be interested in color changing no matter what you do with it.

Of course, if someone's not interested in something then they sure won't buy it.

Well people like Andy at Ultimarc would like to have a customer base if they are going to sell something like this, pissing off the people who buy things like this is not going to give Andy any incentive to join up with Kent Displays if he can't sell to the people that want this type of product.  The people with the flashlights and the people who currently want the flashlights are going to be the market audience for these.  [...] So instead of blasting people with flashlights, try saying something positive about your product instead of attacking negatives of other people's products.  It will give your idea much more a chance of survival instead of everyone just getting fed up with you and not caring about what you have to offer.

I am interested in your product, but hearing you knock the only option currently on the market that I chose to buy just makes me not want to purchase anything that comes from this...  Just my opinion on how you should approach this...

Again, I'm sorry but I wasn't trying to attack anyone here. I didn't say a disrespectful comment about the lighted buttons setups, just merely mentioned a comparison with christmas lights. Those are supposed to be bright and cheerful, I'm not sure where's the negativity in that? You're the one who keeps writing that I'm attacking people when I really wasn't. Is "christmas lights" a negative thing to say in the english language?

What do you want me to do? Do you want me to stop posting on the forums? Do you want me to stop having opinions? 

[RandyT]

The rims should also be able to change color, of course. However, from the emails I've exchanged so far, there seems to be severe limitations on the molding process. I'm not even sure yet if the skin can be molded to the shape of the plunger. Worst case scenario, the skin would be a single flat disc, used as an insert for clear buttons. In the ideal setup the plastic itself would be able to change to multiple colors, but we don't have such technology at the moment. The best I've seen is two-colors plastic, activated by heat, sunlight or electrical current.

I think you may be short-selling the major innovators here.  Most are aware of the current hardware trends, and even better than that, are acutely aware of manufacturing feasibilities, as well as what the market is likely to be once costs are considered.

Looking at the links you posted, you can "color" me skeptical.  Based on the shape of the iphone case shown, and the small swatch of color which actually possesses the color changing properties, it looks like you can have any shape, as long as it's "flat".  A flat disc inside a clear button is still not the "color changing button" you envision.  There are also the ever present burdens of cost.  Even if they could somehow make the material in the shape of a button, with even a $5 (probably low) cost per unit and a 50k minumum, you are talking about a quarter million dollars just to see if the result is something people not only want, but would be willing to pay for.  If I had that kind of investment, there would be a lot of new innovations coming to this hobby, and realistically, this wouldn't be one of them.

It's an interesting technology, and makes for an equally interesting topic of discussion.  But my opinion is that anything particularly usable in the way you wish it to be, is a minimum of 5 years away, but probably more.  The most telling thing is the lack of any compelling demonstration videos showing an application even close to that of the one you are talking about.  The product spec sheet shows an "up to 2 inch curve" for conformability.  Even this is a little vague, but I take that to mean that the curve has to be no less than a 2 inch diameter curve, i.e. between flat and a 1" radius.

As someone who has previously worked in an industry where a new technology has sought (in vain) to find a marketable application, this one looks not so different to my eyes.  If they can eventually do some of things they are telling you, it will probably get there.  But if it's not being demonstrated that they can, and in a meaningful way, there's a lot of risk involved.

RandyT

[Yvan256]

Looking at the links you posted, you can "color" me skeptical.  [...] A flat disc inside a clear button is still not the "color changing button" you envision.  There are also the ever present burdens of cost.  [...] you are talking about a quarter million dollars just to see if the result is something people not only want, but would be willing to pay for. [...] It's an interesting technology, and makes for an equally interesting topic of discussion.  But my opinion is that anything particularly usable in the way you wish it to be, is a minimum of 5 years away, but probably more.  [...]

RandyT

I couldn't agree more about the cost, the current state of the technology (see YouTube video IWrSPbfpeZI, I can't post a link without the forum trying to embed the video directly inside my post) and the limitations. And yes, a single flat colored disc inside a Sanwa OBSC-30 would also be very far from the goal I'm thinking about.


The two main problems with the current LED lighted buttons, in my humble opinion, are that it's extremely hard to have evenly distributed light when the thickness of the plastic varies throughout the molded parts and the emitting of light itself. Maybe with a different type of plastic it the diffusion would be better, the light would be reflected back inside the plastic and the result could look "colored" instead of "lighted/glowing".

Or maybe there's going to be advancements in electrochromic color that will allow dynamically controlled multi-color plastic in a few years.

If I had that kind of investment, there would be a lot of new innovations coming to this hobby, and realistically, this wouldn't be one of them.

Do you have anything cool in development that you might want to share with us?

[AndyWarne]

I dont really understand how this would work. The best that could be done with this is a small round disk which sits under the button surface. What happens to the surround of the button? This would need to be a fixed color. The disk would be covered by a transparent cover which is necessarily reflective so that light reflected from it would mask out a lot of the color of the disk. The disk would need to move with the button plunger so how to get the wires to it?
A whole lot of other potential issues too many to mention make this, for me, a complete non-starter I'm afraid.

Furthermore, properly designed buttons dont have any real issues with color evenness. Its true to say that when LED-lit buttons are photographed, there is an exaggeration of any uneven color but in reality its not really an issue. Plus a button which has no transparent component, and is all milky-translucent will not have any kind of xmas tree appearance.

[Yvan256]

I dont really understand how this would work. The best that could be done with this is a small round disk which sits under the button surface.

That would be the minimum, least expensive and less complicated solution. Really not ideal, as you say.

What happens to the surround of the button? This would need to be a fixed color. The disk would be covered by a transparent cover which is necessarily reflective so that light reflected from it would mask out a lot of the color of the disk. The disk would need to move with the button plunger so how to get the wires to it?

This technology is totally reflective, so the light reflected from the transparent cover would look no worst than a regular button with a printed insert. As for the wires, buttons don't move that much up and down, I'm thinking that thin enough wire would be flexible enough to not be abused by the stress of moving all the time. I remember the wires in the controllers of the first Nintendo consoles being some kind of thin foil wrapped around a small rope of some kind.

A whole lot of other potential issues too many to mention make this, for me, a complete non-starter I'm afraid.

Furthermore, properly designed buttons dont have any real issues with color evenness. Its true to say that when LED-lit buttons are photographed, there is an exaggeration of any uneven color but in reality its not really an issue. Plus a button which has no transparent component, and is all milky-translucent will not have any kind of xmas tree appearance.

Indeed, those Ultralux buttons being white when turned off is certainly a big advantage. As far as I remember, the only white buttons on most arcade cabinets were the "Player Start" buttons, the main action buttons were always colored.