Newbie TV walkthrough, please!

[rCadeGaming]

Not sure about earlier MAME versions.  You should check what versions have to the slider controls, I don't know when they were implemented or if they're still in the newest version.  You shouldn't have much problem using your current ini files with your settings with newer versions, might just need to update mame.ini a bit for new/changed features.

[notbillcosby]

What's the name of the menu option, so I can search for it in MAME whatsnew txt files? I've searched for all the terms I could think of in the whatsnews from 122 to 132 with no such luck! Google has been no help. Maybe I should just figure out how to update my romset and remember how to compile with the hiscore.def and all that crap and just get the most recent version. Yeah... probably should.

[rCadeGaming]

Ok, I finally got onto my MAME PC and confirmed some things.

I'm finding these slider controls in the official MAMEUI v0.132, the only thing I changed about it was to compile using hiscore.diff.

The slider controls are found in the in-game config menu, which is accessed by pressing the key that is assigned to "config menu" in the button config.  It is the TAB key by default, at least in 132 and every other version I've used.

Pressing TAB in-game opens the familiar menu with "Input (general), Input (this game), DIP switches," etc.  Slider Controls should be the sixth one down. 

Opening it gives access to control for volume, contrast, brightness, gamma, vertical and horizontal position, and vertical and horizontal stretch.  The volume control is good for lowering it on certain games where the volume is too loud compared to others, like Third Strike, and the position controls are of course quite handy.  Don't touch the stretch controls as they'll screw up your native resolution royally.  The contrast, brightness, and gamma controls are not very good either; you'll get a much better result adjusting these on the monitor.

[adder]

and if you didnt know already, when you enable cheats in mame you get an overclock option added in the slider controls menu, so you can overclock the cpu of games which suffered from slowdown at the arcades (eg. double dragon, metal slug) and instead play them at a smoother rate

[rCadeGaming]

I've never looked into that, sounds like I should check it out.  How does this affect vsync?

[adder]

I've never looked into that, sounds like I should check it out.  How does this affect vsync?

it doesnt affect vsync, all it does is overclock the cpu of the game in question, so for example in double dragon it 'gives' that game a more powerful processor, ie. when the original double dragon cpu was overworked at the arcade (when lots of sprites are on screen) it couldnt cope and the gameplay slowed down, but now with the overclocking feature it can keep up with the workload and stay smooth

[rCadeGaming]

Question from another thread:

hi rcadegaming no doubt you have really researched your hobby, can you confirm that if you use a regular tv are you only going to get smooth gameplay with games which run at exactly 60hz (or 50hz also if your tv handles 50hz and 60hz), and so if you try running a game such as rtype (a 55hz game) this will not run smooth on a regular tv? or are you saying there is a method using soft15khz/powerstrip to overcome this problem?
ps. i am aware of using a version of mame such as mameuifx* to force ALL games to run in 60hz, which is one way of overcoming the problem of a regular tv only supporting 60hz, but im just curious to find out if there are other ways to overcome this issue...

*or alternatively cabmame, but i prefer mameuifx as cabmame seems to be falling behind with regards to features etc

There's not too many games in MAME that actually run at EXACTLY 60Hz.  A lot are somewhere between 59 and 61, and then of course there are other oddballs like R-Type and Mortal Kombat.  Whatever it is, one of the goals of running native resolutions is get the game running at as close the original refresh rate as possible.

Using MAME's sync to refresh option allows the emulated arcade hardware to run in time with the computer's video output.  Then you tweak your timing values in Powerstrip to get the refresh rate you're actually outputting as close to what it was originally supposed to be as possible.  I can usually get it matched down to two or three decimal places.

This is the best way to get the game running at its intended speed without any frameskip and no tearing.  I think it's the only way run at the correct speed with no tearing without the resorting to the wait vsync option or triple buffering (those cause lag btw, especially triple buffering).

Most 15kHz TV's are fairly flexible with vertical scan rate (same thing as refresh rate), you just have to adjust the front and back porch to keep horizontal scan rate around 15,750Hz (15kHz).  It's true that NTSC and PAL TV's are designed with their respective standards of 60 and 50Hz in mind, but that doesn't mean that's all they're capable of.  I haven't had any problems with mine yet, and I've specifically tested it with R-Type, which worked fine.

You do have me thinking though, I think R-Type's 55Hz is the lowest I've gone, so I wonder how much further I could get, or if there's any games that even have a refresh rate much lower than that.

So, to answer you questions:

can you confirm that if you use a regular tv are you only going to get smooth gameplay with games which run at exactly 60hz

No, this is not the case.

are you saying there is a method using soft15khz/powerstrip to overcome this problem?

Powerstrip is important in getting the right refresh rate, but there's no problem per se; and you don't want exactly 60Hz, you want what the game originally ran in.

i am aware of using a version of mame such as mameuifx* to force ALL games to run in 60hz

This is not a good solution.  Either the game won't be running at its original speed or it will have extra or missing frames, it's simple math.  Whenever you're not running at the original speed, you'll also have audio skipping problems in certain games, especially those with CHD audio.

[adder]

ok thanks for the info, sigh there's a lot to all this stuff isnt there lol, i wish it was simpler

so regarding the way you set up mame to run the games at the correct res/refresh, do you personally have to actually set up every mame resolution you use (eg. via powerstrip tweaks etc)? there are hundreds of resolutions in mame i thought, so surely that must be a never ending nightmare? or is this the price you pay for using a tv?

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, you do have to set it up for each resolution, and it is good deal of work.  It's not that terrible though.  I wouldn't say that there's hundreds of resolutions, at least not for 95% of the games.

Keep this in mind:

Note that most games run on hardware that's shared with a lot of other games.  For example, Street Fighter II runs on CPS-2 hardware, so once you've tweaked up Street Fighter II just right, you can tell MAME to use those setting for all CPS-2 games, as well as CPS-3 since it uses the same resolution.  I think CPS-1 as well, but I forget.

Same thing with NEO GEO, once you've set up one NEO GEO game, you're done tweaking for all of them, etc.  There's not too many games you'll be concerned with that ran on totally unique hardware.

Dissimilar hardware and individual games will often run on somewhat common resolutions as well.  You usually just need to tweak refresh rate a little, which can be easily done without affecting geometry if you know what you're doing.

[rCadeGaming]

Important info from a PM conversation:

You should be able to control horizontal and vertical position, and horizontal stretch, pretty freely, but the ability to shrink or stretch the picture vertically in powerstrip is always going to be limited.  It's not a limitation of the software or the transcoder it's simply the nature of a 15kHz display.

A 15kHz display is designed to display about 240 lines from top to bottom (in progressive, 480 in interlaced).  Horizontal resolution is much more flexible, it's possible to display 640x240 progressive.  In terms of vertical though, you can't get to far away from 240 lines.

This isn't a problem for horizontal 15kHz games, because vertical resolution is always going to be right around 240.  Set the vertical stretch in the TV's service menu to a happy medium, and adjust Powerstrip's limited vertical range around that.

There are a few cases like R-Type, which is 256 lines, where you have to live with a few lines cut off.  In this case you shift position up a little bit so you can the HUD at the bottom, and leave the cut off at the top, where there's nothing going on.  This is an instance where the slider controls are very useful.

[rCadeGaming]

More stuff for reference:

Your default setting for all games are stored in MAME.ini.  When you make changes to specific hardware or games, those changes are saved in a separate ini.  In your MAME folder there should be an ini folder.  Inside will be ini files named after specific games or hardware. 

Specific hardware settings override default settings, parent game settings override specific hardware settings, and clone game settings override parent game settings. 

Say you made some settings changes to a clone game and you want to revert it back to the parent game settings.  Deleting the clone game's ini is the best way to do so.  Same thing all the way up the ladder.

You should open your ini files sometimes and keep track of what changes are coming from what level, or things can become a mess.

[slug54]

Hey everyone,
Great thread alot of good info here.
I really like the idea of using a TV with component input and 15Khz.
I picked up a sony TV today at Goodwill it is a Sony KV-24FV300 which has a component input,It was priced at $11.99 but today is there 50% off day so I got it for $6 they have a new policy where they will only charge 50 cents per inch of screen size so it's a good place to hunt for TV's.

Does anyone know if this TV would work well and be able to run games at their native resolutions and 15Khz?

I also have a couple other questions:

Is there any issues with running a TV in a verticle orientation? It just seems like most people I see run them horizontally.

Does anyone know of a video card that will work with Soft15K and is able to output on a component adapter at native resolutions ?
Transcoders are expensive and if I could get a video card that does this I could save $$$.

Thanks in advance.
-Slug

[rCadeGaming]

That's great, nice find.  Welcome to the project.

Does anyone know if this TV would work well and be able to run games at their native resolutions and 15Khz?

I think that's what notbillcosby's running, so it should work perfectly, not entirely sure though.

You can confirm for yourself if it's a 15kHz TV.  Try hooking it up something that you're positive is outputting 480p.  If you get a garbled mess or no picture, that's a sure sign that it's 15kHz only, which is good.  If it displays a correct picture in 480p, you may have a problem; you'll have to determine if it's able to display 240p without upscaling.

What I do is hook up my PS3.  It starts up fine in 480i.  Then when I switch to 480p in the settings, I should lose picture if it's a 15kHz only TV.  Any modern console you can do this with should be fine.

Is there any issues with running a TV in a verticle orientation? It just seems like most people I see run them horizontally.

Shouldn't be.  I plan on using a TV like this in my vertical cab.  You may need to degauss after rotating, just a like you would with an arcade monitor.

Does anyone know of a video card that will work with Soft15K and is able to output on a component adapter at native resolutions?
Transcoders are expensive and if I could get a video card that does this I could save $$$.

I haven't found one myself.  Supposedly there are some, but no one's been able to provide a specific card yet.  You could read through the list of Soft15kHz supported cards and see if you can find any clues.

A suitable card for VGA out can be found for under $20, leaving money leftover for the transcoder.  If you do find a capable on with component, I don't know how much it will cost.

One thing about the transcoder is that you'll need it anyway to run certain video game consoles in RGB.  Something to think about if you plan on adding things in the future.

[robneal81]

I'm hoping you guys could help.  I've searched for hours and can't find the answer...

I have a Sony PVM-20M2U RGB monitor.  I'd like to hook up my old mini PC to it, which uses an Intel 865 (mobile) Chipset with integrated graphics.  I bought a VGA to RGBHV cable by accident (I guess I was supposed to get a VGA to RGBs).  I used a Y cable to tie H and V sync together and plugged it into my monitor's sync input.  I then loaded Soft 15Khz and quickres, changed the resolution to 640x480 and rebooted.  Now, I get this:



I'm using VNC so I can make changes in real time, but nothing's working.  Is the distorted image a result of using the wrong VGA to RGB cable, or do you think it's a setting?

For the record, the monitor works perfect otherwise (I have all my old consoles hooked up via RGB).

I'd really appreciate any help!

[notbillcosby]

I'm not the expert here, but I've spent many hours recently poking around with this stuff and I've never found a setting that made my tv do this. If I had to guess, I'd say it's a cable. rCadeGaming, whatchoo thing?

[robneal81]

That's kinda what I was thinking.  Can anyone please post a link to a proper VGA to RGB cable?

[rCadeGaming]

Rob, nice monitor.  I looked this up and found the manual.  Download here if you don't have it already:

http://www.mediafire.com/?1wc0y5vo9v43b2r

Some things to check first:

-Make sure you have the RGB and sync BNC's connected to the in ports.
-That monitor supports sync on green, so make sure there's not a setting somewhere to manually tell it to use the external sync port.
-Looks like there's a vertical hold control in the menus somewhere.  If you use it, don't lose track of the default.

Wanted to get that stuff out of the way first, but yes the problem is probably your cable.  You usually can't just tie H and V sync together like that (in fact it can damage the monitor), you need a circuit to properly combine H and V sync.

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

The second circuit there (the simpler one) may work for you, but the first one (the bigger one) would probably be more of a sure thing.  I would order the parts for both and try the simpler one first.  They share many of the same parts, and it would be probably less than $10.  You just need one 74LS86 chip and a socket, some resistors, some capacitors, and some transistors.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74LS86AN/296-1669-5-ND/277315

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1-390261-3/A100205-ND/1125623

I might be able to sell you an Extron RGB 202 that would combine sync.  It also has horizontal and vertical position shift controls, but it causes a frame of lag because of that.  I'd recommend trying that circuit first.

I'd ask MonMotha to look at this and see what he thinks too.

Oh, two more things, note that that monitor requires negative sync according to the manual, and what's VNC?

[robneal81]

Thanks so much for your reply!

I've been using the monitor for a few months with all my old game systems, so I'm sure it's connected and set properly.  I really appreciate the links and I may give them a try, but can I just buy a pre-made cable?  I found this one online:

http://www.cablesondemand.com/product/AV-SVGDB9M4BM/URvars/Items/Library/InfoManage/AV-SVGDB9M4BM.htm

(I do realize that one is only 9-pin VGA, I just mean a cable like it?)

If not, maybe it's just easiest for me to buy your RGB 202.

Also, VNC is a free remote desktop app.  With it, I can control the computer that's hooked up to my monitor from my laptop.  If you haven't used it, I'd definitely give it a try.  You could also use logmein.com's app as well, but that goes over the internet and VNC is local, making it a bit faster (obviously, the computer hooked up to the monitor has to be connected to your network).  Here's some links:

http://www.uvnc.com/downloads.html

https://secure.logmein.com/

[rCadeGaming]

I really appreciate the links and I may give them a try, but can I just buy a pre-made cable?

It would have to be something with a sync combiner circuit in it, or else it would just connect H and V straight together like you've already done.  You could certainly make a cable with a circuit in it, but I don't think it's available commercially.

If not, maybe it's just easiest for me to buy your RGB 202.

I'd recommend trying to build your own circuit first.  That one's pretty simple.  Just getting a few parts and connecting the dots.

If you're not familiar with soldering electronics, it's a great skill to learn (especially for this hobby), and not too difficult.  (Actually, how are you getting RGB from your old consoles, have you already soldered up some custom cables, or did you use SCART cables and some kind of adapter?)

If you're not up for that, let's see if there's a product that can do this without adding lag first.  There probably is.  PM MonMotha and Haruman and ask them to take a look at this.  If needed I'll sell you a 202 cheap, but I'd like to see some other opinions before taking your money.

Also, VNC is a free remote desktop app.  With it, I can control the computer that's hooked up to my monitor from my laptop.  If you haven't used it, I'd definitely give it a try.

Sounds like that would use a lot of resources.  Just make sure it's only on when you need it.

Sounds pretty useful.  I'm not having too many problems right now fiddling with my arcade PC desktop in 480i, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.

Know of any way to do this through a USB cable instead of over the network?

[rCadeGaming]

Just posted a major update to this whole thread.  Look at the second post on page 1.

[adder]

hi rcadegaming, thought i would post here to ask u something;

i was previously satisfied with running all mame games in 640x480 interlace, but tonight i have been experimenting with the good old real low res modes with my crt tv. i have been messing around with several programs, namely soft15khz, winmodelines, powerstrip, and crt_emudriver (oh and quickres :)

the early experiments went well, and i got quite a few of the pre-defined resolutions to work (which were added to my windows xp setup by installing crt_emudriver), however there are also quite a lot which dont work on my tv

i remember you saying you have spent a lot of time setting up modelines to work on a standard tv. so my question: would you be willing to share your modelines which you created to work on a tv? if so, please simply post them here, or pm me. cheers!

note: absolutely no problem at all if you dont want to share them, i figured there was no harm in asking!

[rCadeGaming]

I might get some time to play with my setup around the new year.  What resolutions do you need help with in particular?

[rCadeGaming]

Have you read this whole thread?  Please make sure to first, as you'll find some tips about tweaking in Powerstrip, what you should be looking for, and things like running a game centered in a slightly larger resolution and adjusting the black border into the overscan.

[adder]

ok i will read through the thread again, i think my problem is not really understanding how a modeline works and how it is put together, and also why a regular crt tv accepts certain modelines and cant cope with others (ie. i dont know what the correct ranges are for a crt tv)

i have been reading around slowly though. i still feel i am a long way off understanding it all though (hence me trying to take a shortcut and nabbing your ready made modelines instead )

currently im trying to figure out a good way to display a game like 'Image Fight' (a vertical game, 256x384) on a tv mounted horizontally in the cab. so i need a modeline which has about 390 lines on the vertical. im happy to use interlace mode, but i cant figure out if its even possible to make an interlace modeline with around 390 vertical lines? in fact the closet working interlace modeline i can get is 640x480 which isnt even close

[rCadeGaming]

ok i will read through the thread again, i think my problem is not really understanding how a modeline works and how it is put together, and also why a regular crt tv accepts certain modelines and cant cope with others (ie. i dont know what the correct ranges are for a crt tv)

Some of the presets installed with Soft15kHz happen to work with TV's, and some others need to be tweaked to get working.  It's in there. 

i have been reading around slowly though. i still feel i am a long way off understanding it all though (hence me trying to take a shortcut and nabbing your ready made modelines instead )

The modelines I make are tweaked to my exact TV and transcoder.  What works best with your setup may be different.  If you'd like some of mine as a starting point, let me know which you're having trouble with.

cant figure out if its even possible to make an interlace modeline with around 390 vertical lines?

Well 390 lines isn't possible in progessive 15kHz, it's too many.  Sounds like you read that section if you're suggesting interlaced.  390 is a lot lower than the standard 480i, but MAYBE it's possible.  You might be able to get close and work with geometry from there.  I'll look into this.

[adder]

Some of the presets installed with Soft15kHz happen to work with TV's, and some others need to be tweaked to get working.  It's in there.

i'd grateful if you can give me some pointers on how i should be editing the modelines which dont work. should i be loading powerstrip, and then editing the bad modelines from within there? obviously im guessing this cant actually be done 'on-the-fly' as the tv would go out of sync right away due to the 'bad' modeline.  and  what's usually the problem, eg. the pixel clock? the scan rate? or 'could be anything'

390 is a lot lower than the standard 480i, but MAYBE it's possible.  You might be able to get close and work with geometry from there.  I'll look into this.

thanks for looking into it, even something around eg. 410 vertical lines wouldnt be too bad. but 480 is too much (game ends up looking tiny) ... btw would prefer if this modeline was 60hz if poss...

[thaddeussmith]

My PC is a 1U server that I happened to get for free last summer, and never had any idea what I was going to use it for until my recent arcade obsession started. I was pleased to find out it has 4gb of ram and 2 dual core (i think) Xeon 2.0ghz processors. I'm pretty sure they're 64-bit, I didn't realize that XP32 didn't take advantage of dual processors... I'll see what I can do.

I have a 1U dell that I've wanted to find a use for - 8GB ram, dual AMD CPU's, etc. But it sounds like a f*)&#$*& jet engine when running. How did you minimize noise in your cab without frying the server in the process?

[robneal81]

I'm sorry to took SO long to get back to you...been a busy few months.

So, in regards to your comment about needing a circuit to combine H&V sync:

It would have to be something with a sync combiner circuit in it, or else it would just connect H and V straight together like you've already done.  You could certainly make a cable with a circuit in it, but I don't think it's available commercially.

That's actually not true.  I found an old ATI viedo card that was on the list as being comaptible with Soft15Hz for $18 on eBay.  I installed it, set the resolution to 640x480, ran Soft1Hz and rebooted.  That was it, everything works perfect now.

Sounds like that would use a lot of resources.  Just make sure it's only on when you need it.

It barely uses any resources at all.  I mean, if you connect to it while you're playing a game, yes, it will be a CPU hog.  That being said, if it's just loaded and waiting in the background, you'll never notice it's there.  I launch Mame through XBMC (via Rom Collection Browser), so there's a lot always running on my PC and VNC doesn't hurt it at all:  No lag!


I just thought I'd share my experience with everyone, just in case someone else wants to to the same thing.

[rCadeGaming]

You're very lucky that your monitor happens to work with the sync you made, but that's not clean c sync with with proper levels and such, so don't gaurantee it to work for anyone else.  Some monitors are a lot pickier than others about sync, and damage to the monitor may be a possibility.

I did find a much simpler way to combine H and V to C sync safely here:

"you will need to create Composite Sync. This is done by running the Horizontal Sync through a 1N4148 diode and running the Vertical Sync through an 820 ohm resistor then connecting the two lines together (sync mix by viletim!)."

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:gamecube_rgb

[rCadeGaming]

Speaking of getting back to people, I haven't forgotten about what we talked about above Jadder.  My transcoder is kind of built into my home theater setup for RGB from old consoles right now, but I'm hoping to get a second one soon so I can get working on this stuff again.

[notbillcosby]

My PC is a 1U server that I happened to get for free last summer, and never had any idea what I was going to use it for until my recent arcade obsession started. I was pleased to find out it has 4gb of ram and 2 dual core (i think) Xeon 2.0ghz processors. I'm pretty sure they're 64-bit, I didn't realize that XP32 didn't take advantage of dual processors... I'll see what I can do.

I have a 1U dell that I've wanted to find a use for - 8GB ram, dual AMD CPU's, etc. But it sounds like a f*)&#$*& jet engine when running. How did you minimize noise in your cab without frying the server in the process?

Sorry for the late reply! The short answer is, I didn't. I turned the fans down as slow as I could in the BIOS as I expected it wouldn't really be straining the computer too hard to be playing Donkey Kong and Pac Man. It got quieter, but not quiet. About as loud as an xbox 360. After it was in my cabinet it was still plenty audible but not awful. Then it broke and I got a regular old PC in there and I love how much quieter it is. No looking back.

[rCadeGaming]

Updates:

Made a VGA to SCART adapter for use with a CVS-287 SCART to component transcoder.  It works excellent for computer to TV.  "running the Horizontal Sync through a 1N4148 diode and running the Vertical Sync through an 820 ohm resistor then connecting the two lines together" did not work very well though.  Just running h and v through a 1N4148 and then connecting them together works great though.  You can just connect together directly, but the diodes prevent potential problems caused the signal from one running back to the card through the wire from the other.

Notbillcosby:

I did some extensive testing with a KV-24FS120, and it works just as well as my KV-27FS120.  Very good range of adjustment on both H and V scan rate.  You have both a confirmed good transcoder and TV, so it must be at the PC end.  I'd highly recommend ditching Soft15kHz at this point and going with CRT_Emudriver, it's so much better and easier to adjust than powerstrip.  It can be used with vanilla MAME as well, GroovyMAME isn't required.  I'll switch over when manually defined modelines for each game are added though.  This is the video card I use:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231004974650?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[rCadeGaming]

Jadder, I did some work on trying to get Image Fight running pixel perfect in yoko orientation (meaning displaying a vertical game rotated to be upright on a horizontal screen) on a 15kHz set, and made a resolution that's 512x384@60 interlaced.  This is only 192 lines per field, so it's really hard to fill the screen with so few lines on a normally calibrated set that normally shows about 224. 

At first it was very short vertically and wide horizontally, so I increased the total horizontal lines (adding onto front/back porch, not active resolution) which squished it horizontally until it was in proper proportions.  I did this gradually while also adjusting the dot clock frequency and total vertical lines to keep the horizontal and vertical scan rates close to 15.750kHz and 60Hz so I wouldn't lose sync. 

^ *btw, this is a good example of how to make large adjustments without losing sync: Find what makes a useful geometry change, then if it causes you to start losing sync watch which scan frequency is being pushed too far.  There will usually be something else you can adjust to bring the scan rates back in line without undoing the geometry change.  Then you keep alternating, moving your geometry in small increments, while adjusting elsewhere to maintain sync.*

Finally, as I was getting close, I allowed horizontal scan rate to drift to its upper limit before losing sync so that the screen would continue to get taller; it ended up around 16.6kHz.  I kept vertical scan rate right at 60Hz.  In total, I was able to squish the screen horizontally by several inches to bring things into proportion, but I was only able to stretch it vertically by a fraction of an inch. 

*While horizontal size adjustments are very flexible at the PC end with timing values, only small changes to vertical size are possible and it's more difficult.*

The result is that there is about a 1 inch border around the whole screen in this resolution.  In gameplay, this customized resolution results in a slightly larger game screen than just running it centered and un-stretched in 480i, but not by a whole lot.





Here is the modeline:

Modeline "512x384_60 16.6KHz 60.0Hz" 12.210 512 560 616 736 384 464 467 550 interlace -hsync -vsync   

You can try this if you want a laugh.  It worked for me on two different Trinitrons, so cross your fingers and hope your TV can deal with 16.6kHz.  If you were to run the game with this, use Direct Draw, wait for refresh, auto frameskip.  Normally, Direct Draw, sync to refresh, no frame skip, is preferred, but it won't work well because this resolution is 60Hz and the game is supposed to run at 55Hz.  The output vertical refresh rate must be matched to the game's native rate for that.

Ultimately, the problem is that while you are getting a pixel perfect reproduction of the game screen, it isn't really clear enough to really get much benefit from this due to it being a small display area, having interlace-flicker, and lacking the strong scan lines of low-res progressive.  You might as well run it stretched to fullscreen in 480i using Direct3D, wait for refresh, auto frameskip, so you can at least use the full height of the screen.

So, unfortunately it's not worth it to make custom interlaced resolutions for yoko orientation.  This example was using a 256x384 vertical game.  Something with a more common resolution around 240x320 or less would be even worse.

[wordsworth]

Sticking my nose in here...

I think notbillcosby is using a RCA VHDC300 transcoder which I've recently found out does not work that well with these resolutions.

This is from the "Newbie TV walkthrough, please!":

It's that RCA transcoder I PM'd you about
...it was $10.01 after shipping

The Audio Authority 9A60 or the RCA VHDC300.  Either one sounded like it would work, just a little iffy.  Certainly worth the risk at that price.

This is from the "Ian's BurgerBoss project thread":

nbc >> It looks like you are using the RCA VHDC300, which is about 40-60 dollars cheaper than then Audio Authority 9A60A that I've been planning on buying.

I'm interested in the months you spent perfecting the video and any regrets, do overs, or concerns you might have regarding the RCA VHDC300 and/or soft 15khz.

Harvey: Good eye! Yes, that's what I used. Got it for $10 after shipping on Ebay. I have some issues when it comes to adjusting screen geometry in Powerstrip when I'm running a progressive scan resolution- anything I adjust makes it FREAK OUT. I don't know if this is the video card, the transcoder, or the TV. I have no point of reference, so I'm not sure what to blame...

I actually bought a VHDC300 based on those posts and it's low cost (~$20 shipped) but it turned out to be a mistake for me.

This post, http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131980.msg1369637.html#msg1369637, explains my trouble with this transcoder.

Maybe this helps someone else not make the same mistake I did. You get what you pay for 

[rCadeGaming]

He eventually did pick up a TC1600, but was still having problems making adjustments to timing values, which is why I think the problem is narrowed down to the PC now.  Thanks for the help and the interest though.

[wordsworth]

Okay, that clears it up then.

BTW is that the CRT_Emudriver interface in your first new pic. If it is that's SOOO much better than S15KHz/PowerStrip.

[rCadeGaming]

That's ArcadeOSD, which is included with CRT_Emudriver for adjusting resolutions, and yes, it is much much better than Soft15kHz/Powerstrip.  I'd never go back.

[adder]

hello Rob, aaaargh i havnt been around in ages here apart from the odd quick view here and there so only just saw the post
fantastic to see you messin about making tv's work in a way which if they could speak would say "erm, would you like to watch a dvd instead? leave me alone!"

an update from me is im no longer stuck at 60hz, i was being a prat (as usual) and realised my tv is just fine with other refresh rates (eg. 55hz) and of course so is my ati video card. in fact by pure coincidence im using the same video card calamity recommends as being pretty much the best for custom resolutions ... QUOTE: "For a MAME-only setup (no HLSL) and Windows XP, my favourite is Radeon X300"

unfortunately, my 'supermarket' style beko tv bursts into tears once it hits about 15.9khz so i dont think there is much point pushing my luck. however, maybe its time for me to keep my eyes open for a sony trinitron. sidenote: atari paperboy is another interesting res.... horiz game but at 512x384 .... i wonder how eg. groovymame deals with that game's resolution

by the way, (note: you might not be interested in this if you're not a fan of playing vertical games on a horizontal tv);  i found a nice easy (well, pretty easy) way in mame to override that annoying feature of only having 2 choices in mame regarding displaying vertical games horizontally (ie. 'thin in the middle' of the screen, or stretched full width...ok there's a 3rd choice also.. pixel aspect view). anyway i have it so u can simply choose the size of the side borders.. and there is no 'visible stretching' so to speak (ie. like u get when u stretch stuff vertically).  ok so of course the proportion does change, but personally speaking i find that if u dont stretch too much (ie. avoid full width stretch) you get good results (in my opinion)

to do this you dont even need to do a mame custom compile (altho it can be done via custom compile if preferred)
if u are interested in the details on how to do that just shout
cheers

edit: i took some pics... prob will get flamed for these but what the hell see below:

mame: standard view (too thin in my opinion)


mame: pixel aspect view (better, but still too thin)


mame: my custom view: yay just right


mame: full view (too stretched looking)

[rCadeGaming]

Paperboy used a 24kHz "medium res" or "EGA" monitor.  There's no way we'll get 384 lines progressive on a 15kHz tube.  By coincidence, 512x384i is the same res I made for Image Fight in yoko a few posts above, so you can see the problems there.  Also, GroovyMAME can't do anything magical we couldn't do by hand.  Unless it was hooked to an actual 24kHz monitor it would have to scale and compromise just the same.

I'm guessing you're setting your own aspect ratio to change the size of the side borders?  I fooled with that a bit before getting into native res, but I put a higher priority on keeping the display area in proper proportions rather than worrying about the size of the borders.  When you're really playing you'll be looking at the graphics, not the side borders.

I've found that most games are designed to fill a 4:3 space, regardless of the "pixel aspect" of the resolution used, simply because they would be adjusted to fill a 4:3 screen.  For example, early Nintendo games like Mario Bros. ran in 256x224, which is 8:7 pixel aspect.  However, the developers knew that, in the actual cabinets, monitors wouldn't be adjusted to show that aspect with a little border, they would be adjusted to fill the screen.  So, this was accounted for in the way it was drawn.  When 256x224 fills a 4:3 monitor, each actual pixel is no longer square, it's a little wider than it is tall; but the characters are drawn to compensate for this, so they're displayed in the proportions the artists intended.  CPS1/2/3 games, like Street Fighter, are the same way.  They run in 384x224, so each pixel ends up taller than it is wide, but the characters are drawn with this in mind.

In those pics it's the same principle; I'd go with the standard view (4:3).  In your custom view, some of the characters are almost as wide as they are tall.

[adder]

I'm guessing you're setting your own aspect ratio to change the size of the side borders?

that's it yea.  mr. do (artwork expert) at mameworld forums explained to me how to do it, i will post his message he sent to me at the bottom of this post.

In those pics it's the same principle; I'd go with the standard view (4:3).  In your custom view, some of the characters are almost as wide as they are tall.

this is where we differ then in the sense that i dont mind a certain amount of stretching, even if indeed the look of the sprites changes so they are 'fatter'. that said, i dont want it stretched all the way fullscreen, but personally want it bigger than mame pixel aspect ratio. anyway its no big deal is it, we all have our ideas about whats acceptable and what isnt, and i will always respect purists (after all they are the very backbone of the emulation scene )

post from mr. do:
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to apply this to ALL vertical games, the easiest way would be to edit the default vertical.lay file, and compile your own version:

http://www.mamedev.org/source/src/emu/layout/vertical.lay.html

In line 5, change the values for "right" and "bottom" to be the aspect of how you want to run the games, then compile MAME, and every vertical game will run at the new aspect ratio (sidenote: make sure there is always a difference of '1' between your two numbers, or you will get changes to the top and bottom of your screen instead of just the sides... eg. 4:3, 5:4, 6:5, 7:6 are all ok.. but 7:5 would be bad).

If you dont compile mame yourself or just want to run certain vertical games that way, then do the same as in the paragraph above,  but instead of compiling mame yourself, save a copy of the file as "default.lay" (note: dont save it as an ANSI text file or mame will reject the file), and add it to a ZIP file named "gamename.zip" (where gamename is the name of the ROM), then make a copy of that file for each vertical game you want to run that way, and put all of those zips in your artwork directory.
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