Blast! Damn you CRT TV/graphics card!!!

[LASmith132]

Hey Guys,

I have a 25" CRT Akai Tv and a graphics card that has a DVI,VGA, and S-video out. In the graphics card setup menu there is a tv-out choice. The tv has inputs for RCA and also composite (kb rg, etc)* no s-video. I have connectors that go from s-video to rca yellow, vga to rca dvi to composite, etc. 

The tv "sounds" different when the computer trys to put the screen on it, but no video ever.

I am out of ideas 

GOT ANY SUGGESTIONS

[Malenko]

I thought RCA and composite were the same thing?

what kind of graphics card, what resolution are you running?

[LASmith132]

I will check the graphics card when I get home tonight, but i have tried diff rez's 600 x 800, etc. there is a green blue red inputs that have letters next to them.

thanks for the quick reply.

[Malenko]

old CRT TVs dont really support any good resolutions, I had some nvidia cards that could do 800x600 over svideo well enough. if youre using a VGA to component cord, well, I could never get one to work.

[ahofle]

So which one are you actually using (you never said)?  The three colored RCA inputs are component, not composite.  Composite is usually a yellow RCA input (sometimes with red and white RCA audio inputs next to them).
Your quickest bet is to us the SVideo to RCA adapter, plug that into the composite input on your TV, and set your desktop resolution to 800x600 or 640x480.  Don't forget to select the aux input or whatever it's called on your TV.

[Gray_Area]

  The three colored RCA inputs are component, not composite.

Yeah, so not so ghetto after all. Go that route.

[05SRT4]

I ended up just going with S-video on my 24" sony CRT. The TV has Analog component but trying to get that to work was a joke for me. The s-video looks like crap when using the desktop but once I get into a game I think it looks great.

Plus with the s-video I barely had to config anything, Just plugged it in and it worked.

[molton]

I believe the component red green blue connection is about the same as a vga connection but a different plug.

Amazon $3 VGA to RCA Component RGB Cable



then if you set your computer to 640x480 100Hz that should be about perfect for a TV I think.

as far as I know composite is the old school one yellow RCA plug and component is the red, green, blue plug just for the video.

[Afterburner]

My first suggestion would be to get one of those converter boxes that takes the usual variety of analog inputs like standard coax, single video RCA, and S-video and outputs several of those.

However, I will relate the experience I had.  I had a 18 year old 23" CRT Emerson brand TV that only had a coax input.  My nVidia card had an S-Video output.  So I got one of the converter boxes (about $20-$30) and it worked with no problems.  In fact I was shocked to see that 1024x768 on the TV was an option and it popped right up on the TV at that resolution without any tweaking of the video modes or timings.

However, the downside was the quality of the picture was extremely poor.  Text was unreadable because there was a lot of ghosting/smearing of the letters, etc.  It was unacceptable, even for lowres arcade games like Galaga.

I eventually stopped using the TV and decided to upgrade my older 19" CRT monitor (which worked just fine) to a 20" 4:3 LCD.  I've been much happier with the LCD.

[molton]

...In fact I was shocked to see that 1024x768 on the TV was an option and it popped right up on the TV at that resolution...

  Those converter boxes downsample the video to a standard NTSC, PAL, etc video signal that's right around 640x480, I always thought games looked excellent downsampled like that, but the Native resolution with a component connection is probably as good as it will get if it does in fact work that way.  It probably should.

[MonMotha]

I believe the component red green blue connection is about the same as a vga connection but a different plug.

Amazon $3 VGA to RCA Component RGB Cable



then if you set your computer to 640x480 100Hz that should be about perfect for a TV I think.

as far as I know composite is the old school one yellow RCA plug and component is the red, green, blue plug just for the video.

Just so you know, these don't work the way you think they do.  They're designed for some projectors that accept component (YPbPr) video on their "VGA" inputs via an option in the menus.  Hooking up your PC to your TV with a set of these generally won't work at all, but you might be able to futz around with it and get something in the wrong colorspace (it'll look VERY green) using sync-on-green.

A few video cards from both ATI and nVidia in the early-mid 2000s supported YPbPr component output.  They had a jack that provided S-video but also had extra pins, and a breakout cable was included.  Those are gems for this purpose.  They can do basically whatever you want and output directly to TV-compatible component video.

You're still limited by what the TV can do, of course.

[molton]

I did not know that, but I found this thing

VGA to Component (YpbPr) Converter
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011407&p_id=8668&seq=1&format=2



I never heard of monoprice before, it looks like that cable and this thing would do the trick

[Malenko]

The three colored RCA inputs are component, not composite.  Composite is usually a yellow RCA input (sometimes with red and white RCA audio inputs next to them).

Ive never heard anyone refer to component connectors as "colored RCA" inputs. When someone types RCA they almost always mean yellow/red/white.

Im still curious what kind of video card he's using.

[runawayabc123]

I have purchases a ton of Video cables (HDMI, VGA, etc) from mono price.  They are good to go.  Shipping sucks on smaller orders though. 

[PL1]

Ive never heard anyone refer to component connectors as "colored RCA" inputs. When someone types RCA they almost always mean yellow/red/white.

Not everyone knows the right terminology or understands that RCA jack/plug just refers to that type of connector, but they will after reading this thread.

Ethernet uses RJ-45 connectors. "Ethernet connector"
Serial ports and old joysticks use DB-9 connectors. "Serial connector" (Ignore the 25 pin version.)

In each case, the signal/application is commonly used as a shorthand, even though the connector name is not the same as the signal content.


Scott

[LASmith132]

Im still curious what kind of video card he's using.

using a nvidia 8400gs, sorry about the long delay.

still still still having problems. ughhhhhh 

[ChadTower]

 

Not everyone knows the right terminology or understands that RCA jack/plug just refers to that type of connector, but they will after reading this thread.

^^^That.  RCA is the connector type.  Component uses RCA connectors too.  Composite/Component is the signal type and they both just happen to be designed with the same connector.

[BadMouth]

Im still curious what kind of video card he's using.

using a nvidia 8400gs, sorry about the long delay.

still still still having problems. ughhhhhh 

I have 8600's in three of my machines and a 7300 in another, although I'm using the S-vid input.
It's running at 1024 x 758, but I drop it down to 800 x 600 when I have to read stuff in windows.
I've used the component inputs and they look a lot better, but I need s-vid for the light guns.

What kind of problems are you having?

[BadMouth]

Do you have Nvidia software installed that lets you choose what signal the s-vid connector on the video card is putting out?

It has to be set in the software whether you are using composite, component, or s-video.  It won't detect it automatically.
IIRC, it defaults to S-vid because that can be plugged in without the adapter pigtail.

[rCadeGaming]

old CRT TVs dont really support any good resolutions

Not true at all, you just have to know how to set it up.  Standard definition TV's can display native arcade resolutions.  This means around 240p, which looks worlds apart from 480i.  480i will be blurry by comparison and lack proper scanlines, both due to the scaling.

An SDTV can be set up with MAME to rival the quality of a real 15kHz arcade monitor.  Second link in my signature.

Btw, all of these vga to tv converters add input lag because of the scaling.

[Malenko]

is it quote me from 6+ months ago day or something?

I skimmed the link in your sig, so if you have a videocard that isnt supported by soft 15 and you dont run a transcoder, how many resolutions can you push to an old CRT that doesnt have component or svideo? And no SCART either, my opinion was based on old US CRT TVs

I'll check this thread in 6 months for a reply.

[rCadeGaming]

Whoa there, I hadn't noticed when you posted, and I don't see how that's relevant.  I just read the thread because it was replied to earlier today and came to the top of the board.  If a thread's currently at the top of the board, it's up for discussion, and I didn't want others seeing this again to find misinformation.

The point is that you flat out said that "old CRT TVs dont really support any good resolutions," which is just false.  Anyone can get a transcoder and a Soft15kHz-capable card and set this up.  You don't need a SCART TV either, but preferably something with a component input.  I live in the US, and I'm doing this with a very common TV.  They're a dime a dozen on Craigslist, and there's compatible graphics cards for under $20 on eBay.  The only significant expense is the transcoder, but there are usable ones well under $100.

Besides, you don't even need all this to see these resolutions on your TV.  Just plug in a Super Nintendo, or a Genesis, or even a Wii with virtual console games.  You will see real 240p.

Maybe what you meant was that "it's hard to get these resolutions from your computer to your TV without the right setup," but you said that the TV's themselves don't support it.  This is total misinformation, and it's a huge disservice to leave that out there for the community.   

90% of MAME games run in 15kHz (~240p).  Most standard defintion TV's can be set up to be just as compatible with these resolutions as a real 15kHz arcade monitor.

[Louis Tully]

.

[Malenko]

The point is that you flat out said that "old CRT TVs dont really support any good resolutions," which is just false.  Anyone can get a transcoder and a Soft15kHz-capable card and set this up.

Maybe what you meant was that "it's hard to get these resolutions from your computer to your TV without the right setup," but you said that the TV's themselves don't support it.  This is total misinformation, and it's a huge disservice to leave that out there for the community. 

My statement was based on his set up, not every set up in the world. You are correct its POSSIBLE with the right hardware including a soft 15 card and a trans-coder. Now that you've posted when the world comes here and sees my statement, they'll also see yours and this retraction. The world is now a better and safer place, god bless you.

[rCadeGaming]

Sorry be a stickler, but you're missing the point, the way you worded it is harmful misinformation.  You didn't say it wouldn't work with his setup.  The way your post was worded was that the tv doesn't support it.  Period.

Someone could come along and rule out a completely viable display option based on that, so I do think it's worth correcting.  People should know they can do better than an LCD or a CRT computer monitor without spending hundreds on an arcade monitor.

And again, you don't necessarily need any special setup.  Just plug in your Super Nintendo and you'll see that the TV the is capable of displaying all kinds of 15kHz resolutions.

[Malenko]

Sorry be a stickler, but you're missing the point, the way you worded it is harmful misinformation.  You didn't say it wouldn't work with his setup.  The way your post was worded was that the tv doesn't support it.  Period.

Someone could come along and rule out a completely viable display option based on that, so I do think it's worth correcting.  People should know they can do better than an LCD or a CRT computer monitor without spending hundreds on an arcade monitor.

And again, you don't necessarily need any special setup.  Just plug in your Super Nintendo and you'll that the TV the is capable of displaying all kinds of 15kHz resolutions.

You are the one missing the point, Stop beating a dead horse.

[rCadeGaming]

[LASmith132]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the help, some of it I am following some of it I am not, lol. (I am trying to keep up with you wizards).

I guess my biggest problem is that in my settings for my video card I can't make it send a signal through the s-video. The Tv "seems" to act like something is being sent through but there is no picture at all. ]

Is there possibly a better graphics card software that will alow for me to have more control? Like an aftermarket software? or am I stuck with the last update for settings?

what do you guys think?

[BadMouth]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the help, some of it I am following some of it I am not, lol. (I am trying to keep up with you wizards).

I guess my biggest problem is that in my settings for my video card I can't make it send a signal through the s-video. The Tv "seems" to act like something is being sent through but there is no picture at all. ]

Is there possibly a better graphics card software that will alow for me to have more control? Like an aftermarket software? or am I stuck with the last update for settings?

what do you guys think?

It's just Nvidia Control Panel.
It should be available for download along with the drivers from the Nvidia site.
I can see which version I have tonight if need be.

This is the screen you are looking for:


From what you are describing, it sounds like the wrong type of signal is being sent.
The different connectors have different types of signals.

EDIT: looking over some of the sites that popped up when I searched for that pic, looks like the TV might need to be added as a second monitor before it will show up in that screen.

[LASmith132]

It's just Nvidia Control Panel.
It should be available for download along with the drivers from the Nvidia site.
I can see which version I have tonight if need be.

This is the screen you are looking for:


From what you are describing, it sounds like the wrong type of signal is being sent.
The different connectors have different types of signals.

Sounds great, I will mess around with it again tonight.

I thought I have tried everything, but it will probally be one of those "duh" moments.

Could my tv be the problem? 25" Akai CRT TV?

[Louis Tully]

.

[LASmith132]

Could my tv be the problem? 25" Akai CRT TV?

When you cycle through your input settings on the tv, is it just a 1 button type of thing? Like a TV/AV or TV/LN1 button or are there options? I ask because the old RCA tv we have connected through S-Video has a setting to select S-Video. I had to go through the tv menu settings and change the Video Input to S-Video, it defaults to an AV setting(composite). I've never seen an Akai tv but maybe it's got a similar type of menu option and needs to be set to a specific input?

Just tossing ideas out there 

I will try to cycle through again the choices and put them up here. Could it be that I need the remote control?

[ahofle]

Standard definition TV's can display native arcade resolutions.  This means around 240p, which looks worlds apart from 480i.  480i will be blurry by comparison and lack proper scanlines, both due to the scaling.

An SDTV can be set up with MAME to rival the quality of a real 15kHz arcade monitor.  Second link in my signature.

Btw, all of these vga to tv converters add input lag because of the scaling.

Do you happen to have any links for proper composite transcoders that don't scale?  I know a couple people with TVs in their cabinets (no component, only s-video or composite) and this sounds like a huge improvement.  Has anyone here had luck running 15khz over composite?  That would really open up display options for arcade cabinets.

[rCadeGaming]

I'm using a Crescendo Systems TC1600.  Not the cheapest, but it's extremely high quality, and lag free of course.  It's made by a fellow enthusiast, and he offers excellent service as well, you won't get anything close from a big company.  It works for the PC's VGA, as well as RGBS from consoles (SNES, Genesis, pretty much everything).

The whole point of Soft15kHz is running native resolutions.  Graphics cards scale everything to 480i on "TV out" ports, so it's not possible.

Read the second link in my signature.

[MonMotha]

http://www.jammaboards.com/store/rgb-to-ntsc-pal-tv-converter-pcb-cv-04.html is cheapish.  I've not used it, but the chip it uses (it's a Rohm part) is fully analog and should be lag-free.  This exact design shows up on ebay under various names other than Wei-ya.

Jrok also has one based on the Analog Devices AD725.  I've not used his design, but I built a similar device (with a few other application specific features), and the quality was excellent.  I didn't know S-Video could look that good (tested with a Sony Wega).

It's also possible to make an RGB to YPbPr transcoder that's fully analog, though in practice most of them seem to be digital.  That can be done with nothing more than ADC/DAC and conversion matrix pipeline lag, though, which is on the order of 20-30 pixel clocks typically i.e. negligible.

You can build an upscaler that's low lag.  It won't be totally lag free, but you can get it down to about 2 input scanlines which is short enough that you'll never notice, though it may break light guns.  It'll still be scaled, of course, so you'll destroy any pixel perfect graphic features such as scanlines.  If you want to do an exact 2:1 upscale (line double) to go from e.g. 15.5kHz CGA to 31kHz VGA, that can be done with exactly 1 scanline of latency, and you can play some tricks with the output intensity to re-replicate the scanlines, though it'll still look a bit different on a PC CRT with tight dot pitch than it does on a TV tube like used in an arcade monitor.

[mimic]

I will try to cycle through again the choices and put them up here. Could it be that I need the remote control?

1st of all could you clear up what inputs you've got in the back of the tv? Is there s-video, or just composite (Yellow/Red/White)? Or do you have component there as well (Red/Green/Blue+White/Red(for audio))?

Did you try to connect monitor and tv at the same time?

If yes to above, have windows noticed that a second display is connected?
                          Were you able to clone displays?

Do you have option to enable tv output in your driver settings of your video card?

[servidorv]

Hey, im new in this forum, but I've build a couple of arcade machines, anyway if you have and old VGA cable, you could make your own VGA RGB cable, the VGA is the same as the composit connectors, go on google and look for VGA to rgb how to.

Sent from my XT615 using Tapatalk 2

[ahofle]

http://www.jammaboards.com/store/rgb-to-ntsc-pal-tv-converter-pcb-cv-04.html is cheapish.  I've not used it, but the chip it uses (it's a Rohm part) is fully analog and should be lag-free.  This exact design shows up on ebay under various names other than Wei-ya.

Jrok also has one based on the Analog Devices AD725.  I've not used his design, but I built a similar device (with a few other application specific features), and the quality was excellent.  I didn't know S-Video could look that good (tested with a Sony Wega).

Thanks MonMotha, that's just what I was looking for.  It's cheap enough too that it's worth a try.

[LASmith132]

What resolution should I put my graphics card at? should I set it as low as 256 x 512? Could that be the problem on why I cannot get the signal onto my tv?

[PL1]

What resolution should I put my graphics card at? should I set it as low as 256 x 512? Could that be the problem on why I cannot get the signal onto my tv?

Maybe I missed it, but what is the exact model number for your 25" CRT Akai TV?

Have you found the manual for it online? (I know it's not the manly-man way to find the answer, but nobody's going to fault you at this stage.  )


Scott

[Gray_Area]

Try 480i, yo. If that works, and you decide you want to get fancy, look up rCadeGaming's threads.

[Yenome]

Try 480i, yo. If that works, and you decide you want to get fancy, look up rCadeGaming's threads.

like gray said try 640x480. once you get that working follow the rest of grays advice. rcade is the most knowledgeable person i know on the forums when it comes to displays, even if i think he is off his rocker sometimes

[LASmith132]

Will do thanks guys, I will post the model type as soon as I can take a look at it tonight when I am off work.

Thanks again guys.

[maiki]

The whole point of Soft15kHz is running native resolutions.  Graphics cards scale everything to 480i on "TV out" ports, so it's not possible.

Read the second link in my signature.

But that does not mean those TV-out chips on graphics cards are not capable of custom resolutions. It is probably just a matter of drivers or (and) video BIOS. They are certainly not limited to 480i. I have an ASUS EN7100GS256/TD 64 with composite TV out hooked up to my CRT to watch DVDs and it has a 60 / 50 Hz switching with couple of resolutions and it shows when I switch between them. True, it does not output non-interlaced picture but that might be just how the Windows XP drivers were written for that particular video encoder (cannot say now which brand it is).

More or less, a TV-out chip is nothing but a processor for outputting 15 kHz video that surely can be instructed which video mode to output. Which brings me to my final point: Instead of that Arcade VGA, it would be really helpful if someone developed a small PCI-E x1 card that would just use some sort of microcontroller (FPGA whatever) that would calculate the required 15 kHz video output modes all arcade enthusiasts are after. A replacement for those TV out encoders in a way. How much power would you need to compute a 15 kHz video output - not that much I suppose. And obviously, the add-on card would not only support composite but RGB and S-video as well (perhaps even component?), so that NTSC users could hook their TVs easily.

Soft 15 kHz is not a solution, it's an emergency. You cannot even display boot process or BIOS onto CRT with that, which you obviously can with TV out chips on cards.

[rCadeGaming]

Whatever hardware is added for TV-out just takes an existing RGB signal and encodes it to composite or s-video, or transcodes it to component.  The encoding/transcoding chips used are likely the simplest thing that will get the job done, and may only work with one (or a select few) set of predefined timing values.  It's true that the tv-out hardware on some graphics cards may actually be able to output 15kHz progressive if enabled in the drivers.  It hasn't technically been proven to be impossible, it's just that no one has confirmed a card that works like this yet.

It might be nice if someone made what you're thinking of, but it's not really worth all that just to keep the transcoding on the card when external transcoding solutions are readily available.  An external transcoder also has the advantage of being able to use to display RGB from your game consoles.

See this post for the current options for RGB to component:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1392896.html#msg1392896

If really want to get into it, you could also make your own transcoder circuit which could be kept inside the computer.  Start here on p.7:

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an57fa.pdf

You can find options for RGB to composite, or s-video, but I personally wouldn't put the time into this and just get the full quality of component, which is basically equivalent in quality to RGB.

As for the BIOS, boot screens, etc., I don't think most people are concerned with that.  You don't need to see it after the initial setup.

Finally, it's important to note that this is a pretty old thread.  I wouldn't recommend Soft15kHz anymore:

As long as you're getting a new card, you should switch to CRT_Emudriver.

Soft15kHz is really not the best option anymore. 

First of all, it's silly to use a real CRT and not use GroovyMAME, and that works hand in hand with CRT_Emudriver.  GM can generate resolutions on the fly to keep everything native res (and native refresh, very important), saving you a lot of work; and it has a lot of other important features for native res even if you don't use the auto-generation. 

Even if not using GM, tweaking your resolutions in Soft15kHz requires editing the text modelines by hand (super tedious), or using Powerstrip.  Powerstrip was not really designed for this application, it's very cumbersome, and does not even fit on the screen in lower resolutions.  CRT_Emudriver includes ArcadeOSD, which was purposely designed for this, is just as powerful if not more so, more flexible, and much easier to use.

Making the change only takes a couple of minutes once you have the right graphics card (which can be dirt cheap).  I started with Soft15kHz, and resisted making the change because I had some GeForce cards on hand (only compatible with Soft15kHz).  When I finally switched over to CRT_Emudriver, I was really kicking myself for not doing it sooner.