15khz from boot w/ new card

[steveggz]

I was using the ArcadeVGA card with my makvision 27" arcade monitor (tri-sync) and groovymame but when I found out that I could get more modlines by using a regular ATI card and Calamity's drivers I bought a sapphire radeon HD4850.

I need some help setting up a couple of things.

After installing the ATI drivers I then installed Calamity's drivers and overwrote any files it asked me to. But after hooking the arcade monitor and starting my computer the monitor started having problems while windows was booting. The monitors picture was messed up and then it started clicking very fast over and over like it was not compatible with the frequency. So I pulled the monitors plug out. I tried several reboots with the same result.

I know the ArcadeVGA card has 15khz from start and Im guessing the problem is this card not doing so and my monitor freaking out. Is there any way to get 15khz with the radeon HD4850 from boot?

Just want to add that my arcade monitor is a tri sync monitor so shouldn't it be able to handle the boot screen? The monitor does ega cga & vga.

[Calamity]

I know the ArcadeVGA card has 15khz from start and Im guessing the problem is this card not doing so and my monitor freaking out. Is there any way to get 15khz with the radeon HD4850 from boot?

There was a tool named boot-15khz that gets installed into the MBR so it works right from startup. However I highly doubt it will work with modern ATIs, and there's also the risk to mess your HD install by touching the MBR.

Just want to add that my arcade monitor is a tri sync monitor so shouldn't it be able to handle the boot screen? The monitor does ega cga & vga.

Well it should be able to handle it if that boot screen was actually 31 kHz, but someone had the great idea of using odd frequencies for boot screens in modern cards bioses, I'm not sure if they're 70 Hz vertical or whatever but they don't seem to be near 31 kHz, so even the J-PAC can't provide an usable split screen output for these newer cards.

[steveggz]

Thanks for the reply.

so even the J-PAC can't provide an usable split screen output for these newer cards

Thanks for clearing that up, that was my next question.

What do you recommend I do? Should I have a seperate switch for the monitor and turn it on after windows has loaded?

[abispac]

On my expirience, you shouldnt bother, i have not seen a single monitor that brakes because of that...

[Calamity]

On my expirience, you shouldnt bother, i have not seen a single monitor that brakes because of that...

Multisync monitors do break. At least one user's multisync monitor that I know of did break while tweaking stuff with Arcade_OSD so I do take this very seriously. Whether wrong frequencies were the issue here or it was a different fault is something we're not sure of, but anyway: caution.

What do you recommend I do? Should I have a seperate switch for the monitor and turn it on after windows has loaded?

Yes, that's a possibility. An interesting test is to plug a PC monitor during boot and check its OSD to see which frequencies are actually being outputted.

[steveggz]

On my expirience, you shouldnt bother, i have not seen a single monitor that brakes because of that...

I read that somewhere else as well but it still makes me nervous. The sound of the monitor repeatedly clicking and bad picture really seem as though its damaging.

Would waiting for windows to boot before turning on the monitor cause any issues like windows not loading the monitor driver or something like that?

[steveggz]

How would I go about checking the frequencies during boot?

[Calamity]

How would I go about checking the frequencies during boot?

Just get the monitor's OSD to prompt and check the frequency values shown, something like H:31kHz V:60Hz

[steveggz]

Checked the frequencies during boot with the new radeon HD4850.

The frequencies change according to what part of the boot process its in.
I get:
48.2Khz 59.8hz NN 1024 x 768 (at the windows select screen [xp or 7])
31.4Khz 59.9hz NN 640 x 480 (when booting and you see xp logo)
31.4Khz 69.9hz NP 720 x 400 (in CMOS setup)

Couldn't get OSD with the first boot screen because it loads to fast.

[steveggz]

I see that Calamity's drivers include 15Khz. Do the drivers know when I have my arcade monitor hooked up and automatically use 15Khz? And when I hook up my pc monitor instead, does it switch?

Im a little reluctant to use my acrade monitor after booting into windows until Im sure the card is using 15Khz.

Sorry for so many questions, I guess Im a little paranoid about possibly frying my new arcade monitor.

[steveggz]

So I tried turning on my arcade monitor in windows (fully booted) after installing Calamitys drivers and again I got that fast loud clicking noise telling me the arcade monitor didn't like it. Then I realized the last resolution I used with my pc monitor was too high for my arcade monitor.

But here's deal, I could not use 640x480 60hz with my pc monitor (the highest usable setting my arcade monitor accepts). The reason is that Calamity's drivers automatically apply 15Khz after install and reboot to only the 640x480 60hz and below resolutions. This is great because like this there is no need to turn on 15Khz, which would be impossible to navigate in windows with the arcade monitor off. And no one using a pc monitor these days really use 640x480. But the bad side is that I couldn't leave the last resolution on my pc monitor to 640x480 60hz so that my arcade monitor could be turned on in windows because when I did select 640x480 60hz the pc monitor didn't sync, it can't at 15Khz (thats how I knew Calamity's drivers were working).

So the solution, very easy, while I had my pc monitor connected I logged the steps and button presses I would need with arcade monitor hooked up (but not turned on) to start windows in VGA mode. After I actually did it with the arcade monitor and was sure the pc was booted to windows in VGA mode, I then turned it on and finally had picture.

[steveggz]

Then I made sure the pc would always use 640 x 480 60hz when booted up. After that I ran vmmaker. Then changed my groovy mame.ini monitor line to CUSTOM. Tried groovymame and WOW . Everything looks so much better. Games are full screen and look great. Groovymame and Calamity's drivers are amazing.

The only games that were a little off were mk and nba jam but by so little its not even worth mentioning. There's no doubt that groovymame looks and functions better with Calamity's drivers as opposed to the arcadeVGA.

Thanks a lot for groovymame, and Calamity for your awesome ati drivers.

Just for reference my specs are:
27"/29" Makvision Tri-mode flat monitor model: M3129DF-TS ( I think same as M3129DF-72 )
Sapphire radeon 4850 w/ VGA port
Calamity's drivers & groovymame32
Windows XP

[steveggz]

Sorry for so many posts in a row. I have one question regarding "refresh force" program. I want to use it to make sure that my video card never goes above 640 x 480 60hz when connected to my arcade monitor but im worried that it also wont let me get all the resolutions that vmmaker made for mame.

There are quite a bit of resolutions in refresh force but not 120 that I know calamity's drivers allow me. Will that program prevent me from getting some of those resolutions or does it not apply to this situation because groovymame games are not run in windows?

[Calamity]

Hi steveggz,

I'm happy you got it working. However you made it too complicated: once you selected 640x480@60 and your PC monitor got out of sync, you could just have plugged your arcade monitor in that very moment and have picture on it.

About the RefreshForce program, well I have never used it, I wouldn't mess with the mode list anyway. Don't get too frightened because there are high resolutions on the list, just avoid using them. GroovyMAME WON'T select those resolutions accidentaly. GroovyMAME always uses the resolutions marked as "custom" which are the ones we create to our specs, unless there's no "custom" resolution available in the system which shouldn't be the case.

[steveggz]

  Never thought about that.

Thanks again

[krick]

If you're worried about possibly damaging your monitor with out of range signals, you might want to get a J-PAC from Ultimarc.

http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac.html

Custom microcontroller only allows sync signals to be sent to the monitor if they are in the correct range that the monitor is designed for. Avoids driving the monitor with a too-high horizontal sync rate which can damage some arcade monitors.

[steveggz]

Wait.. Calamity mentioned that modern cards have different frequencies during boot and that even a j-pac wouldn't work. Does it just give you a blank screen instead (if it can't split the picture)?

I would really like the monitor to turn on with the system, I bought one of those smart power outlets to do that.

I don't care if the j-pac just hides the boot process (if it can't split the signal) as long as it stops my monitor from trying to sync and clicking. So that I can have them both come on together.

Custom microcontroller only allows sync signals to be sent to the monitor if they are in the correct range that the monitor is designed for. Avoids driving the monitor with a too-high horizontal sync rate which can damage some arcade monitors.

Does it completely stop signals to the monitor as protection or does it only stop them until the signals change to one that is ok? And what do you see on the screen when it stops an unsyncable signal if any?

[krick]

It's been a while since I hooked up a normal card to my J-PAC (I'm currently using an ArcadeVGA3000) but I think that anything out of range gets split to protect your monitor.  Sometimes, the split screen displays OK if your monitor can figure it out, other times it's scrambled, depending on the exact frequency after the split.

Your monitor might still try to sync to it, I'm not sure.  My monitor is an old 15KHz Hantarex Polo 25 model doesn't have relays (so no clicking).

You can always shoot an email to andy @ ultimarc.com and ask him some questions.  I'm sure he's seen it all and will be able to help you decide if a J-PAC will do what you want.

Personally, I'd never build a MAME cabinet without a J-PAC for monitor protection.

[Calamity]

It's been a while since I hooked up a normal card to my J-PAC (I'm currently using an ArcadeVGA3000) but I think that anything out of range gets split to protect your monitor.  Sometimes, the split screen displays OK if your monitor can figure it out, other times it's scrambled, depending on the exact frequency after the split.

Yes, that's exactly what happens. The J-PAC will split the signal if it's above the 15 KHz range. That halves the horizontal frequency but if you think about the input frequencies that steveggz posted:

48.2Khz 59.8hz NN 1024 x 768 (at the windows select screen [xp or 7])
31.4Khz 59.9hz NN 640 x 480 (when booting and you see xp logo)
31.4Khz 69.9hz NP 720 x 400 (in CMOS setup)

... that would produce this output:

24.1Khz 59.8hz -> scrambled
15.2Khz 59.9hz -> OK
15.2Khz 69.9hz -> rolling

I used HD4000 cards for a while and it made necessary to have a PC monitor around in order to go through BIOS setup screens or when booting to VGA mode to fix stuff, which was quite often during the process of drivers patching. On the other hand, with my old R 9250 you always knew that the J-PAC would provide you with an usable screen in most situations.

Personally, I'd never build a MAME cabinet without a J-PAC for monitor protection.

Yes, I think that the J-PAC is one of the most useful devices ever invented, seriously. However, I've always used them with standard arcade monitors. I'm not sure how they'll behave with a tri-sync monitor, as I remind that in order to be able to use the 31 KHz modes you need to remove the corresponding jumper, so, would that leave the door open to any frequency above that?

Another approach I've read about is using an old PCI card on the same mother board, and set the AGP/PCIe card as secondary through the BIOS setup. This will give you a blank screen during boot as the output will be driven through the first dummy PCI card, then after Windows is loaded the output will go through the AGP/PCIe card which is the one that's actually connected to the monitor. Search the web for more info about this.

[steveggz]

I love that solution. Thank you very much.

I just wish I knew about it before, I already drilled a hole in my cabinet for a switch to power on the arcade monitor. No big deal though, it will just add another layer of protection in case I need to shut it off for some reason.

Great information from everyone, Thank you.

[captainvark0]

Sorry to be a pain,

i had my mame cab working fine with onboard nvidia 6100 and soft 15khz, but ive got a hd 4850 and installed calamitys drivers, after i installed them i rebooted and plugged the pc into my cab, nothing came up on the screen after the windows boots screens. it is set to go into windows then hyperspin from startup.

So i thought maybe its too high a frequency so plugged in the pc monitor, but that was out of range too.


1) is there a read me for using calamitys drivers or

2) i have a dvi out, vga out and hdmi out, dvi is the main one. am i right in thinking that this is the output port i need to use? im sure i read that i need a dvi vga adaptor somewhere as it just uses the primary output port.

Any help will be hugely appreciated as its just a bit above my understanding at the minute!

Many thanks

Alex!

[Calamity]

Hi captainvark0,

Yes, you need to use the DVI output with a DVI-VGA adapter, that's all.

[captainvark0]

Brilliant,

thanks Calamity!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[captainvark0]

Hi Guys,

My PC ran great in 15khz with the dvi to vga adaptor installed. Hyperspin however wouldnt start at all. I went into mame manally and played SF2, great looked awesome. When i exited back to windoes however the screen was split and everything was running at 31khz again i think.

restarted my PC and it now boots hyperspin on startup but the gfx card is outputting at 31khz as the j-pac is splitting the signal.

So im not sure what the issue is now, ive tried looking at the forums but couldnt find anything to fit the problem yet. is there a general Calamity ati drivers FAQ probems and solutions thread?

Many Thanks Alex

[Calamity]

Hi captainvark0,

No FAQ, just ask me directly.

Use Arcade_OSD to set your desktop back to 15 KHz, 640x480@60 should be a safe bet.

Make sure to get the updates for Arcade_OSD and VMMaker here: http://aburamushi.net/calamity/VMMaker_1.3c_Arcade_OSD_1.3b.rar

As for the Hyperspin bug, read this: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=121196.msg1285624#msg1285624

[captainvark0]

Calamity,

just one more quetsion, does this groovymame/drivers project run on donations?

[captainvark0]

Hi!

I tried the aracde OSD and it didnt seem to be running right as it wasnt dispalying any info on the hfreq, so i couldnt select any 15khz ones.

So, i read somewhere else that someone used soft15khz on top of the crt emu driver.so i did that and it seems to have sorted everything out, arcade osd is showing all the mode info's now perfectly!
Some of the mame games run faster now than with the 6100 but, the majority of the 3d ones are still way too slow! MK4 totally unplayable for example.

Ive got a a dual core amd 3800, 1gb hd 4850 and just 2gb ram.

Alex!

[Calamity]

Hi,

Probably the drivers weren't properly installed beforehand, that would explain Arcade_OSD not being able to access the registry modelines. Driver installation problems happen all the time, unfortunately.

Installing Soft-15Khz on top of CRT_Emudriver is much like using it with regular Catalyst drivers. It fixes the Hyperspin issue because it only installs about 30 resolutions.

Anyway you can't expect a performance boost in MAME due to the videocard, everything in MAME is software rendered.

[jthomaz]

Hello Guys,

I'm so newbie that if I say something too stupid, please just ignore it.

I'm starting my pre-design phase for my cabinet, and wondering about the main points.

For the screen selection I'm hesitating between going for a PC flat screen (these became cheap lately) and an arcade screen.
I'm only considering the arcade screen because I leave in China now and I think I can get a M3129DF-72 29" for not much: +/- 200USD.

The point is that while reading this forum I understand there are some risks and technical things to consider.

Let me ask you some things related to this post:

1. If I buy said screen, the plugging sequence would be: computer video board->screen. No need for converters, right?
I know this screen connects to a 15 d-sub plug. I understand this is the old screen plugs we had some years ago.

2. For frequency and resolution limitation (to avoid damaging the screen) if I buy the ArcadeVGA, to I still need the J-PAC?
the ArcadeVGA has a direct output that goes to the M3129DF-72 screen, right?

Probably I have tons of other questions. I've ready several portions of this forum but still need time to the info to sink out in my brain.

Sorry if the questions are too stupid.

J.

[Calamity]

1. If I buy said screen, the plugging sequence would be: computer video board->screen. No need for converters, right?
I know this screen connects to a 15 d-sub plug. I understand this is the old screen plugs we had some years ago.

No need for converters, that's a standard VGA connection.

2. For frequency and resolution limitation (to avoid damaging the screen) if I buy the ArcadeVGA, to I still need the J-PAC?
the ArcadeVGA has a direct output that goes to the M3129DF-72 screen, right?

The J-PAC is used to connect your computer's VGA output to a JAMMA interface ("J" stands for JAMMA). Old arcade monitors didn't have a VGA input. If your monitor has a VGA connection then you wouldn't use a J-PAC anyway. Any video card with a VGA connection can be connected to that monitor. The advantage of the ArcadeVGA, is that it will output 15 kHz right from boot, ensuring your monitor doesn't receive out of range frequencies at any point.

[jthomaz]

Thank you Calamity.