SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2

[lettuce]

The Sony KV29F1U model im looking at has the BE3D chassis!!!, so im clueless as to what that chassis is?

[princess prin prin]

Sony AE1 chassis based TVs (ca. 87-91) are the best of best.

Yay!

The chassis is very modular, you have separate PCBs for AC filtering, teletext, croma, stereo, TV tuner, headphones. I use mine as arcade monitors (in a cab) and I've removed all the unnecessary PCBs.

Neat! This doesn't cause any problems? I may have to ask you more about this in the future..

No problems at all. The only sub-boards you really need are F1 (AC filtering), B1 (the RGB signals go through it before going to the neckboard) and in your case also D1 (vertical deflection). The 25" version has the vertical deflection components on the main board (D). As long as you have 12V at scart 8 the TV will turn on without anything else. The J1 board (scart and audio connectors) is weird: it isn't disconnectable but it folds like a book thanks to hinge connectors.

Later versions of the chassis (AE1B and AE1C) have the AC filtering section integrated in the main board and a few components (mostly resistors) surface-mounted as opposed to the AE1 which has only through-hole components. AE1C (found for instance in the KV-A2511, KV-A2521, KV-M2521) still has pots for everything. TVs with this chassis have an all plastic case.

[retronerd]

I get it! I have to figure it out on my own!

[Calamity]

can anyone help me to calibrate modelines so ex mortal kombat and other games fit?

I've looked through this thread for you, this is the setup we came up with for lettuce's Sony TV:

monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Adding this line into mame.ini should allow your 256-line games to display complete after some service menu adjustment, in case your Sony specs are similar to lettuce's one.

GroovyMAME calculates modelines dynamically, this means that it will override the adjustments you make with Arcade_OSD, creating its own modelines. However, you can use Arcade_OSD to adjust modelines manually and use these with other MAME builds, in a static way.

[Paradroid]

@princess prin prin: thanks for the detailed info on what boards can be safely removed from the AE-1. Also, thanks for going over some of the differences between the models. If the unit I have is anything to go by, I imagine the whole range would be quite desirable for classic gaming.

I'm impressed by your knowledge in this area and bet you've had quite a SCART adventures in order to learn so much and reach your conclusion regarding the image quality of these Sonys. I'm tipping you're based in Europe (Germany?) somewhere...

Anyway, thanks again! Hope you have time to stop by and fill us in on more SCART related topics in the future!

[lettuce]

Paradroid, any chance of doing a indepth guide on how you modded your Blaupunkt TV with the control knobs on the front of the TV? Or if you decided to do the same with your new Sony!?

[Paradroid]

Hey lettuce! Just a matter of time for both...

I have two Siemens TVs here with the exact same chassis as that Blaupunkt. That means I can document the process right from the very start.

As for the Sony, I'll do something similar once I've have a chance to work out what each pot does. It might take me a little longer to work out where to put the controls and how to disassemble that almighty beast!

[princess prin prin]

Hope you have time to stop by and fill us in on more SCART related topics in the future!

As soon as I get a better camera I'll make a topic on the AE1 refurbishments I'm currently busy with.

[Paradroid]

Oh, bravo! Looking forward to that...

[lettuce]

Hey lettuce! Just a matter of time for both...

I have two Siemens TVs here with the exact same chassis as that Blaupunkt. That means I can document the process right from the very start.

As for the Sony, I'll do something similar once I've have a chance to work out what each pot does. It might take me a little longer to work out where to put the controls and how to disassemble that almighty beast!

Good to hear!. I managed to score a Sony KV-X2532U today (I have 3 Sonys now, all with different chassis) that apparently has the AE-1 chassis in so ill look forward to how you tackle it  

[Paradroid]

I managed to score a Sony KV-X2532U today (I have 3 Sonys now, all with different chassis) that apparently has the AE-1 chassis

Oh, beautiful! Gee, that was quick! Didn't take you long at all to hunt that down! Nice work.

Okay, maybe I'll try to get into this sooner rather than later... we'll see how time goes.

[lettuce]

Now i thought the picture on my other 2 Sony Tv was outstanding, but the picture from my Kv-X2532U which has the AE-1 chassis is even better still it is super super sharp on the windows desktop. But it appears to have a slight display problem. It is fine on the SNES, but when using the PC it has a kind of rolling screen problem...expect the screen isnt rolling but there brightness is rolling behind the screen...its hard to explain but ill try and take a vid of it

EDIT: ok heres a vid of the problem, you'll notice the effect going diagonally down across the screen, it more noticable in real life.



Any ideas?

[retronerd]

This line monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 wasnt working for me, how do i find the right values for my tv?

[lettuce]

This line monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 wasnt working for me, how do i find the right values for my tv?

Whats your TV doing?

Go back to basic's and use the default monitor_specs line......

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

[Calamity]

This line monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 wasnt working for me, how do i find the right values for my tv?

retronerd, be aware 'the right values' might not exist at all. So by not working you mean they still don't show 256 lines or something else?

[retronerd]

The problem is that for example tmnt or Sf2 works great, but when i play mk, or mk2 3cm of the screen is cutt off in the bottom! to get it correct i have to calibrate the imag in the service Menu! every other resolution works great that i have tested! Maybe this isnt something wrong? is it normal that i need to calibrate it in the service menu to get mk perfect?

[Calamity]

The problem is that for example tmnt or Sf2 works great, but when i play mk, or mk2 3cm of the screen is cutt off in the bottom! to get it correct i have to calibrate the imag in the service Menu! every other resolution works great that i have tested! Maybe this isnt something wrong? is it normal that i need to calibrate it in the service menu to get mk perfect?

Hi retronerd,

Yes, that's normal I'm afraid. Those games (mk, mk2, etc) are 256 lines tall, that's too many more lines than 224 (sf2), so it's normal that the TV needs to be manually adjusted for each situation. So if that you are able to get it correct for 256 lines after calibration, then the monitor_specs are working. Something different would be that despite manual calibration you wouldn't manage to get the picture fit the screen.

[retronerd]

Alright!

If i want to play tekken for example, can i edit groovy mame so 3D games is using direct 3D instead of directDraw?

Thanks!

[Calamity]

Alright!

If i want to play tekken for example, can i edit groovy mame so 3D games is using direct 3D instead of directDraw?

Thanks!

Yes, you can make a specific ini file for the rom or set of roms (driver) you want to use different options. However using Direct3D won't improve performance of 3D games in MAME, if that's what you're intending. For 3D games, better use -triplebuffer instead of -syncrefresh unless you can get a solid 100% speed.

[retronerd]

Thanks! Where shall the ini file be? can you post the ini file here so i can see how it shall be? sorry for my bad english....

[Calamity]

You just make an ini file with the name of the rom, for instance tekken.ini, and you place it inside the .\ini folder, and you write inside the options you want (these will override the ones in mame.ini):

Code: (tekken.ini) [Select]

triplebuffer 1
syncrefresh 0

[retronerd]

i dont hade an ini folder? only an cfg folder!

[Calamity]

Then just create it

[retronerd]

Thanks Calamity it works great

[retronerd]

When i update Groovymame to a newer version, do i just replace the mame.exe or do i have to make an new xml and ini file?
thanks!

[kourampies]

Hello everyone,

I decided to ask for some help, since seems Im stuck with a small 21" TV, because I cant find anything better to buy, so I want to get the best result from it.

The TV is a Philips 21PT5305/01, I think the chassis is L9.1 AA. Its a recent model, I think from around 2000. Im using an ATI x1600, with the UMSA. The OS is Windows XP, with CRT Emu drivers 6.5.

To be honest, everything kinda worked out of the box, without tweaking anything. I got big overscan on most modes, but fixed it through the service menu, through trial and error, since the Philips service menu uses codenames for everything.

The problem is that there are many options to tweak except the obvious size and position, and many slightly affect the geometry. The most common problem is the upper portion of the screen being compressed, for example a 1" wide orizontal line on the top, containing more pixels than a same size line on the bottom of the screen.

This can be fixed, but requires lots of tweaking on the service menu, while displaying a test pattern, and it isnt something easily done whenever switching a game, since each video mode looks different.

So I was messing around with Arcade OSD, and saw the ability to tweak some modelines. I didnt get any real good results, since once again I wasnt really sure what to tweak, but I did see that It could affect geometry. But I dont know how to do it, and I didnt even see on the list some modes I use frequently, like the capcom CPS 384x224.

So is there any chance to adjust the modes geometry through ArcadeOSD, and use the adjusted results in GroovyMame, without the need for big adjustments on the service menu each time?

Or in the worst case, at least have all the modes be correctly centered, and use the service menu only to adjust size, with the options that dont realy mess with the geometry?

I ll be happy to do any tests and suggestions you want like others did with their monitors, so we can get some more info about the monitors capabilities.

Also, In a slightly unrelated matter, I think the colors seem a little too vivid. Off course, I havent seen a real and well maintaned Arcade machine for more than 10 years, and the ones I used to play were in quite bad shape, so probably the monitors looked worse than intended. I cant adjust it on the image properties menu. Its not brightness or contrast or even color. It justs look too vivid sometimes. Perhaps its my eyes being used to the LCD monitors of my computer, for more than 10 hours a day for years?

[kourampies]

Forgot to mention I also have a Sony Trinitron 21" from 87 I think. That tv was WAY ahead of its time back then, with teletext, quadraphonic sound, and many other features.

But its really old and worn, some edges of the screen have distorted colors etc. Also I suck at soldering, modding, etc, and Im really afraid of opening a high voltage CRT tv, and there is no service menu on this one

[kourampies]

Some more info on the Sony. Its a KV-21XSTD from 1987. I decided to give it a spin since I saw trinitrons get much love for MAME use.

Amazingly, although its in quite bad shape, with some discoloration on the top left edge, It displays way better than the new Philips. No extremely vivid colors, much more pleasant to the eye, and looks exactly like an arcade monitor. Also the Interlaced modes flicker a lot less. Seems like all the buzz regarding the Trinitrons back then was well deserved.

[Paradroid]

I'd be interested to see some photos of this up and running... curious!

[kourampies]

Regarding the Sony, I put it back on the basement after messing with it, sadly without taking a photo. But I will get it running again soon, since I share your enthusiasm on this one.

Regarding the Philips, I found the exact service manual for my chassis, and all the explanations for the service mode codenames and adjustments. Tweaked it a lot to get the geometry right (using a 320x224 mode, since the ones I usually use for gaming are 224p.), and I got it to a point where the geometry is perfect, and you only need to mess with vertical size, and sometimes horizontal position when using completely different modes.
I also noted what are the codenames for size and position, so I dont screw up the geometry again. So more or less this is a good solution.

I would be happy to take photos of both the Philips and the Sony, and also some other smaller TVs I have on the basement, but I would like some tips on how to take the photo. I have a Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX35, its an old point n shoot, but with a very good sensor. Trying automatic doesnt give very good results, and on manual It gets too bright, or you get that "CRT screen on Video" effect.

My Galaxy Nexus works better, but its not sharp enough for you to enjoy the scanlines :p

[Paradroid]

Lots of the photos on my blog were actually taken with a Galaxy Nexus! 

The best results involve pausing MAME, setting up a tripod and using a shutter delay.

[kourampies]

Here are some quick pics taken with the Nexus, of the Philips in action, after the geometry tweaking. Notice that all of the games shown have perfect geometry position and size, without any adjustments!
Also note the emulation pc, and its luxury case

[Paradroid]

Very nice indeed! Great geometry, focus and colours! Looks like you're onto a winner there! I'd be interested to see how it goes with tricky games like R-Type and Mortal Kombat. They're the ones that I struggled with on modern Loewe TVs.

Harder to find Sony and Philips with SCART here in Australia although they do come up from time-to-time.

Also, since you've done the hard yards, you might consider posting a list of the deciphered service codes so that Googlers will pick them up here in the future.

Thanks the pics!

[kourampies]

This Philips is a winner indeed! After deciphering the values on the service menu, and some long tweaking and disabling some stuff on the service menu like digital contrast enhacements and that kind of stuff, I managed to get rid of the extremely vivid colors, with some more adjustments on the regular picture menu. Now the image is perfect, like a brand new arcade monitor!

Mortal Kombat and other games with weird resolutions and refresh rates run fine, no geometry distortion or other weirdness at all! I took those pics quickly, without any further adjustments on the size/position, since all of those games positioned perfectly on the screen.
I will take some pics of MK and other games with more exotic video modes, tweaking the size and position for each one tonight.
Also I never got any resolution not syncing, like it happened in the Sony.

Here in Greece ALL TVs have SCART but sadly, most people throwed them in the garbage quite long ago, in order to get LCD ones. I ve been trying to get a 29" one for quite some time, offering a decent amount of money, and had no luck at all

[Calamity]

Congratulations kourampies, that Philips TV looks great! So you mean that for switching from 224p lines to 256p lines (rtype) you only need to adjust v-size in the service menu?

[kourampies]

Congratulations kourampies, that Philips TV looks great! So you mean that for switching from 224p lines to 256p lines (rtype) you only need to adjust v-size in the service menu?

Only the Vertical size and Vertical position need adjusment in most cases! Check the pictures:

R-Type with the 224 lines geometry configuration:



Mortal Kombat with the 224 lines geometry configuration (I think the slightly off centered image is caused by GroovyMAME using 400x256 instead of 399x253, could I perhaps force it to use 399x253?):



Super Pang with the 224 lines geometry configuration:



R-Type reconfigured for 256 lines (Vertical size set to 0, pincushion needs to be a little more round on all modes, haven't got to it yet, on this tv this doesnt need to be reconfigured for every mode)



I think the results are great!

[kourampies]

can anyone help me to calibrate modelines so ex mortal kombat and other games fit?

I've looked through this thread for you, this is the setup we came up with for lettuce's Sony TV:

monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Adding this line into mame.ini should allow your 256-line games to display complete after some service menu adjustment, in case your Sony specs are similar to lettuce's one.

GroovyMAME calculates modelines dynamically, this means that it will override the adjustments you make with Arcade_OSD, creating its own modelines. However, you can use Arcade_OSD to adjust modelines manually and use these with other MAME builds, in a static way.

By the way I used this for my Philips TV, changign 49.50 to 49, and got a little smaller, I think better looking picture (I had it in auto previously). I prefer it this way since previously the vertical size was set to 0, and didnt leave much room for adjustments.  (Also when using the tv for anything else, the image was way too compressed.)

If you could suggest and even more customized mode for my tv I would be grateful.

[Calamity]

By the way I used this for my Philips TV, changign 49.50 to 49, and got a little smaller, I think better looking picture (I had it in auto previously). I prefer it this way since previously the vertical size was set to 0, and didnt leave much room for adjustments.  (Also when using the tv for anything else, the image was way too compressed.)

If you could suggest and even more customized mode for my tv I would be grateful.

The relevant vertical size values are these (specially the second one):

monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

The keep short, the lowest both of those values can be, the best use you'll be doing of your CRT's resolution. The second value is the vertical back porch and needs to be long enough to allow for the CRT beam to reach the top of the screen. You can explore the capacity of your particular CRT by testing different values with Arcade_OSD. However, in your case, I don't think it will be worth the pain.

This is important: notice that you shouldn't be able to change vertical size through 'software'. You wouldn't expect this from an 'ortodox' CRT device. We can't do that with arcade monitors.

BUT, it turns out that many TVs do some auto-adjustments of the vertical size on their own, depending on some features of the incoming signal. All Sony TVs we've been testing here seem to do this. We think it has to do to original PAL/NTSC auto-adjustment.

This apparently nice feature causes a lot of headaches to the user as it makes very hard to achieve an universal vertical centering adjustment that you would easily get with an arcade monitor, forcing you to mess with the service menu all the time.

[kourampies]

I think I wont tweak it further for now. Passing the current modeline to both GroovyMAME and VMMaker made all 224p modes have perfect geometry and position, both for MAME and other emulators, and the resolutions with more than 224 lines can easily be adjusted by tweaking the vertical size and position on the service menu. Thanks for the info!

[Endprodukt]

I picked up my new Sony 25" tv (kv-25c5d) . its a trinitron with an fe-1 chassis. I'm trying to set up the geomitry through the service menu. I was wondering what I should use as a picture to do that?  My windows resolution is 640x480 so I used that mode in arcade os to set the geometry. Works okay but isn't perfect in windows.

I was also wondering why I get  borders on top and bottom in capcom games? They seem to fill out the screen for others without any monitor specs. Horizontal porch is good though.

 I'm a bit worried though. ..the picture isn't as sharp as I hoped.  I played around with the focus and its better now but not perfect. Any ideas?