How much space would I save by decasing an LCD?

[nitz]

I'd like to put an LCD TV into my cab, but since everything is 16:9 these days and the inside of my cab is about 24.5 inches wide, I'm limited on size. I feel the smallest I can go is a 27 inch TV as I want to have vertical games at a somewhat decent size without rotating.

The width of this TV http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889107068CVF is 25.4. So I would need to lose about an inch to squeeze it in my cab. Can anyone who has decased these tell me if I would lose that if I decased it? Doing some math, the screen on a 27 inch 16:9 should be about 23.5 inches wide, so even if there was nearly another inch of metal frame or whatever around the screen, I should be ok.

One thing that bothers me though is in this thread http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=99826.0 elfman12's 40 inch decased was still over 37 inches wide, and doing the math again, the screen itself should be less than 35 inches wide, so that's quite a bit of extra stuff still around it.

The last thing I want to do is buy a TV, decase it, then find out it doesn't fit, because I really have no other use for it. I'd probably end up mounting it vertically I guess, but that's not really what I want to do - heck, if I'm gonna mount vertically, I may as well get a 32 inch. I'd like to be 90%+ sure that the 27 would fit before I buy.

Have I mentioned how much I hate widescreen? I have no problem with LCDs, but I hate how it's these short, fat screens available and nothing else, all so the manufacturers can save a few bucks cutting the panels.

[Rickn]

The viewsonic ad may be a little deceiving, the common size for thi panel is a 26" viewable. meaning the actual viewing area measured diagonaly. They heve likely included the metal farme of the LCD panel itself.
So 26" LCD panel completely decased and naked.... left to right 24 and 5/8". With our 26 inch industrial panel open frame 25 and 1/8" I usually tell people to cosider 25 and 1/4".
If you are talking say a midway cabinet, won't fit unless you are handy with wood working, remove the T-molding and router each side.
Last thing, cheap is not always best, we have selected and designed our panels for high contrast, brightness and viewing angle. If you can take the panel, tilt it on it's back and still see it from a distance and other angles, this is what you need.
Hope this helps.
BTW, we have custom bezels for the 26" LCD that we cut to size, but again you need 25 &1/4" clearance left to right.
Yes 16X9 is different as far as what we are used to, but trust me play the game a few times and you will be more than happy!

[Blanka]

The viewable image of a 27 inch 16:9 is 598mm + the average metal bezel when decased = 2x20mm = 638mm total = 25.11 inch. A 26 inch 1366x768 might fit, but the best option would be a 25.5 inch 16:10 screen, as it is 591mm including bezel. The vertical image size is larger than a 27 inch 16:9 offers: 344mm > 336.

The TV you mention is not a smart solution for another reason: it's a TV with a TN computer panel. Which means sucky viewing angles, especially from below, and often serious input lag as these TN panels need lot of preprocessing for TV signals.

Best option for you would be either a 25.5 inch IPS panel, but these are no longer made so you need to find a second hand one, or get one of the also EOL models with 21.3 or 20 inch 4:3 panels, as they are nearly as large for 4:3 content. For still-available-new low budget solutions, have a look at a 25.5 (often called 26 inch) 1920x1200 TN monitor.

[Blanka]

Wrong: they still sell 26 inch IPS screens:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116422CVF
But it is way expensive. But it will give you the best 16:10 screen that fits in your cab EVER made (also compared to many models to come).

Still available 21.3 inch one:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002361CVF
But again, a monitor way better than anything you have in your house or at your office right now.

[Blanka]

Option within your budget:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824133035CVF

This one has an IPS panel: fast, great viewing angles and good color accuracy!
It has the same 4:3 image size as a 26 inch 16:9 or a 21.3 inch 4:3 panel, and just half an inch less vertical space as your 27 inch proposal.

Next week I can give you an exact measurement of the Acer 2723 panels I use a lot. This is a 16:10 27 inch panel, and it was the biggest wide angle wide gamut screen that fit into my cab, but mine is 675mm on the inside, yet I know there is still some room left on the sides. In the USA/CD Samsung made the 275T with this panel, or Dell with the Ultrasharp 2709

[Donkbaca]

I prefer MVA and a fast PVA to IPS for cab purposes. I would rather have better contrast than better viewing angles since in a cab you are likely to be standing right in front of the cab anyway. Plus PVA is cheaper and easier to find, and the newer ones are good enough in terms of response time that you won't notice any difference in performance

[nitz]

Wrong: they still sell 26 inch IPS screens:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116422CVF
But it is way expensive. But it will give you the best 16:10 screen that fits in your cab EVER made (also compared to many models to come).

Still available 21.3 inch one:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002361CVF
But again, a monitor way better than anything you have in your house or at your office right now.

I have no doubt that those are both awesome monitors and I'd definitely go for one if money were no object. But I just can't justify the cost. I'd rather live with crappy viewing angles, especially in a cab as I'm generally going to be looking at it straight on anyway.

For still-available-new low budget solutions, have a look at a 25.5 (often called 26 inch) 1920x1200 TN monitor.

Any links? That would probably be perfect, but I haven't seen anything like that in my searching.

Thanks guys.

[nox771]

Newegg lists a bunch of 27" TN panels:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007617%20600030620&IsNodeId=1&name=27%22

You would have to grab the model numbers and do more searching to get panel details.  For instance the Dell U2711 is an IPS panel, as reflected in the price tag:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=224-8284&~ck=baynoteSearch&baynote_bnrank=5&baynote_irrank=0

Generally anything you find below $400 in that size will be a TN panel, which is fine as long as you don't rotate it.  Although you may need to be careful with tilt also if you expect players of vastly different height (both children and adults).

[nitz]

Yes, the 27 inch 16:9s are everywhere, but Blanka's post has got me hoping I could find a 25.5 inch 16:10 which would be much better. The biggest 16:10 I can find is 24 inches. (Well, I found a 27 incher but it's received luke warm reviews and sounds like it's of questionable quality.) If anybody knows where you can get 25.5 or larger 16:10 new, please send a link my way!

EDIT: Heh, forgot that Blanka already linked to one of these, but it's way out of my price range. I also found one for about half that price, but it's got a 160 degree viewing angle for both horizontal and vertical - blech! The panel I have now is a lot smaller and with a 170 viewing angle, and it's slightly marginal, so 160 on a big panel would be terrible I think.

I may end up going with the 24 inch you linked to Blanka. Seems like the best balance between size, quality, and cost. Quality and cost are excellent actually, I just wish size was a little bigger as it's not a huge leap over what I have now, though the quality would no doubt be better.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[nitz]

Man I keep changing my mind about what I should do. Now I'm actually feeling like I should either go all out - get a big good quality display - or just not bother at all and stick with what I have. I figure if I'm going to sink more money into this project, I may as well get something good...what's the point of spending a few hundred bucks to get something I'm just sorta happy with?

Anyway, what do you guys think of this? http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/dynex-dynex-32-lcd-hdtv-dx-32l220a12-dx-32l220a12/10165772.aspx?path=ab91892b1e2e1c56150604811f8ff463en02

32 inch TV with 176 viewing angles for both horizontal and vertical (I would definitely have to mount vertically because of it's size). This would give me a nice size screen for both horizontal and vertical games. My concern is, would I be dealing with input lag? Blanka, you mentioned input lag for TN panel TVs, but I'm assuming this can't be a TN panel with those viewing angles. Would I have to worry about input lag with something like this? There's a ton of specs that I don't really understand, and from what I gather, LCD manufacturers fudge the specs anyway, so it's hard for me to know what I'm really getting...thus I need the advice of the experts on this forum.

[nox771]

There is one panel here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254052

It claims 1080P support, but if you look at the details and feedback it is a 1920x1200 panel, which is 16:10.  It is also 27.5".  No idea on the quality of the panel or viewing angles, and I wouldn't rotate that, but size wise maybe it works.

Hmm, I may have to look into one of those for myself, 16:10 is becoming rare.

[Blanka]

Option within your budget:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824133035CVF

This one has an IPS panel: fast, great viewing angles and good color accuracy!

Again: don't be fooled by 1.5 inch. This one is 16:9, and already roughly the same vertical size as those 27 inch 16:9 ones.

[nox771]

Option within your budget:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824133035CVF

This one has an IPS panel: fast, great viewing angles and good color accuracy!

Do you know of a review anywhere on that?  Even going through the manufacturer's site I can't find anything that conclusively says it is an IPS panel, and of course the low price makes me skeptical.

Also the comment on TV input lag had me wondering - console players have been hooked up to TV's for a while now (true it was originally CRTs, but it's now flat panels).  If consoles can get away without input lag problems (including these days using wireless controllers which is another potentially bad source of lag), why would it be a problem in this application?  I'm not a console gamer, so I don't know, perhaps there is lag and they just work with it.

[nitz]

There is one panel here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254052

It claims 1080P support, but if you look at the details and feedback it is a 1920x1200 panel, which is 16:10.  It is also 27.5".  No idea on the quality of the panel or viewing angles, and I wouldn't rotate that, but size wise maybe it works.

Hmm, I may have to look into one of those for myself, 16:10 is becoming rare.

Thanks, I saw that one, but it's a bit too wide for my cab, maybe decasing would work, maybe not, but I'd be a little nervous about a 170 viewing angle on a screen that size anyway.

I've been doing some reading about the lag thing too. Looks like lag is caused on High Def TVs by the upscaling processing or something like that. And it can be a big issue on some games apparently. Some TVs have a game mode which reduces it, and some TVs are just better than others when it comes to lag.

I think I'm gonna go with a 32 inch TV mounted vertically actually. Seems like I should be safe if I google lag + the model number, and make sure no one's complaining about lag on that model, or better yet, people say it has minimal lag. Then buy it at a place with a lax return policy just for extra insurance.

[Blanka]

I think it is quite rediculous to use a TV vertical. Are you going to hide a part of it? With a normal 24-27 inch PC monitor, you can perfectly make a fanless cab, with a huge TV I doubt that is possible. Also it makes a nice bezel impossible. Also a thing to check: how does a TV handle HDMI levels. Sometimes the darkest 10% gets clipped by default (movie mode).
With a 16:10 screen you have 1200x1600 res for horizontal, and 1200x900 for vertical. With a TV you have 1080x810 for horizontal and 1080x1440 for vertical. Also the horizontal games are only 20 inch size, where verticals do 26 inch. In the arcade horizontals were often 24-27 inch and verticals 19 inch. A 24-27 inch 16:10 would be more appropriate for that.

[nox771]

I think I'm gonna go with a 32 inch TV mounted vertically actually.

Mounted like that the vertical viewing angle on the TV becomes your horizontal viewing angle.  Do flat panel TV's have decent vertical viewing angles?  I know TN panels have horrendous viewing from below, but I don't know about what they use in TV's.  You may want to just check some flat panel sets at a local store to see what it's like.

[Blanka]

Most TV's above 30 inch are VA or IPS, below they are either FullHD TN, and some older 1366x768 models are IPS/VA too.

[Donkbaca]

I still prefer VA.

Best advice is to look at the monitor in person, then get reviews.  A lot of reviews talk about technical, miniscule differences that probably don't matter much in the real world.  I wouldn't mount it vertically, most TV's have HORRIBLE viewing angles, and unless you were playing mostly vert games, you would have weird borders a lot of the time.

[lilshawn]

I still prefer VA.

Best advice is to look at the monitor in person, then get reviews.  A lot of reviews talk about technical, miniscule differences that probably don't matter much in the real world.  I wouldn't mount it vertically, most TV's have HORRIBLE viewing angles, and unless you were playing mostly vert games, you would have weird borders a lot of the time.

i agree. going to a big box store where they have 10 or 20 monitors/tv's set out where you can play with them goes allot farther than any amount of internet research.

plus, if a "best buy" guy asks if he can help you, you can say "probably not" and continue about your business of turning the monitors on their sides to see how they look vertical.

[Blanka]

Oh, and for your interest: do you know how to determine a VA or an IPS panel (I assume you already checked the viewing angles to be wide)?
Wear polaroid glasses and check the image:
A VA panel image is black pivoted vertical
An IPS panel image is black in normal position.

[nox771]

Polarization trick is nice.  I would also check for the purple haze.  On my desktop I have two PVAs and an S-IPS.  With a dark background the IPS immediately stands out at any significant viewing angle because of the purple haze.  When I first got that panel it drove me nuts (I use dark backgrounds a lot), and I had to reorient the panels so when I entered the room it was more/less face on.  With a lighter background and more head-on viewpoint the IPS looks good (crisper than the PVAs, although it does have a noticeably colder/blue tint than the PVAs which are more red) - but on an angle it's a different story.

[nitz]

I think it is quite rediculous to use a TV vertical. Are you going to hide a part of it? With a normal 24-27 inch PC monitor, you can perfectly make a fanless cab, with a huge TV I doubt that is possible. Also it makes a nice bezel impossible.

If the viewing angles are good, why is it ridiculous to mount a TV vertically? I'd definitely hide all but the game area of the screen with a bezel. And I don't see how a nice bezel is any more difficult to do with a vertically mounted LCD TV vs a horizontally mounted LCD PC monitor.

What I'd probably do is make the bezel square rather than 4:3, say 15.25 x 15.25. That would give me about 19 inches diagonal for both horizontal and vertical, with a couple inches space at the top and bottom for horizontal, and a couple inches space at the sides for vertical. I would use mame's vertical and horizontal stretching sliders to make it fit. I know it's a lot of wasted screen space, but, hey that's the widescreen revolution. If I could get a 25 inch 4:3 LCD I would - that's the real monitor I need, but they don't make 'em, so what else can I do if I want to have decent size horizontal and vertical without rotating? I know I could put a 25 inch CRT in there, but my woodworking skills are mediocre at best so I don't want to deal with that size and weight, not mention that it's only going to get harder and harder to find replacements as time goes on.

I admit, the heat issue hadn't really crossed my mind. My cab is fairly well ventilated though, and I wouldn't mind having to put a fan in.

With a 16:10 screen you have 1200x1600 res for horizontal, and 1200x900 for vertical. With a TV you have 1080x810 for horizontal and 1080x1440 for vertical.

I have a 22 inch 1680x1050 now so I'm playing at 1400x1050 I guess. Looks fine to me. I'm really not picky about picture quality as long as it's reasonable. I'd be very surprised if I were unhappy with the picture on a 32" TV. It's probably a better display than what I have now.

A 24-27 inch 16:10 would be more appropriate for that.

If you have any links to where I can buy a new 25.5-26 inch 16:10, please post them. All I can find is 24, (which I'm feeling like isn't a big enough jump over my 22 to bother with a whole new monitor) and that 27 inch mentioned above which is probably too big for my cab even decased and might be a bit dicey on the viewing angle.

[jimfath]

There is one panel here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254052

It claims 1080P support, but if you look at the details and feedback it is a 1920x1200 panel, which is 16:10.  It is also 27.5".  No idea on the quality of the panel or viewing angles, and I wouldn't rotate that, but size wise maybe it works.

Hmm, I may have to look into one of those for myself, 16:10 is becoming rare.

I'm in the market for a 27" LCD as well. With the space I have in my cabinet this should fit this very well.


After rebuilding my MAME pc on a lcd monitor I couldn't stand staring into the cathode gun of a 27" tv any longer. I'd be happy to give anyone feedback if anyone was seriously looking at this model.

[Blanka]

If you have space for a 27 inch 16:9 (too big for the TS), the Acer B273HLOymidh is a great one to consider. It has an MVA display (faster than PVA, great angles and enormous contrast: static 1:2500, more than any other LCD screen today). It has an image size of 598x336, roughly the same vertical as a 26 inch 16:10.

[jimfath]

If you have space for a 27 inch 16:9 (too big for the TS), the Acer B273HLOymidh is a great one to consider. It has an MVA display (faster than PVA, great angles and enormous contrast: static 1:2500, more than any other LCD screen today). It has an image size of 598x336, roughly the same vertical as a 26 inch 16:10.

  I'm putting these side beside on Newegg. Where are you getting these specs. I'd like to see more. The new egg specs don't get into MVA and says the veiwing angle is slightly higher in the Hanns G.

[Blanka]

Sorry, they don't ship many of high quality panels to the USA. Don't ask me why. This Acer is a EU product.

[jimfath]

Sorry, they don't ship many of high quality panels to the USA. Don't ask me why. This Acer is a EU product.

Cool. Thanks for the info just the same. I ended up going with that Hanns G per a mark down and a $30 off weekend special.

[nox771]

Cool. Thanks for the info just the same. I ended up going with that Hanns G per a mark down and a $30 off weekend special.

Post some pics of that when you get it.  I'm still on the fence between something like that and rotating my old Samsung 213T.

[jimfath]

Post some pics of that when you get it.  I'm still on the fence between something like that and rotating my old Samsung 213T.

Will do. Anything specific you want the photos to show? I'm not super techie but can manage.

[nox771]

Well it's just a request of course, but I (and I'm guessing others) would probably be interested in your assessment of the screen quality and if you had photos at a couple viewing angles that would be good.  Also if you could perhaps measure the outside dimensions of the case so people could figure out if things would dimensionally fit or not.

My guess is the screen is perfectly good for this application, especially for just a couple players right in front of it.

For my specific case - in a rotated orientation my old 21" 4:3 would be larger vertically, but horizontally oriented that screen gives about a 3" diagonally larger image (unless my math is wrong it is equivalent to about a 24.3" 4:3 with black bars on the L/R sides to fill in to 16:10).  Some people hate the bars, but I rather like the artwork possibilities or other things you could do with background images in those spaces (control descriptions/images, etc).