What do you think of the Tron pics?

[Jeff AMN]

Looks pretty cool to me, but obviously this all relies on the ruleset. It seems to be a mirrored Spider-Man (a game I quite like), but it remains to see if it flows as smoothly and if there are nearly as many modes.

[RayB]

Comparison with Funhouse:

http://www.maaca.org/download/file.php?id=2797&mode=view

[Q*Bert_OP]

Looks a lot like the prototype Tommy pins...

Will I order it? Possibly the LE...after I play it...

[smartbomb2084]

So... where is the playfield mounted monitor all you yahoos were hoping for?

[Xiaou2]

Duplicated:


Very disappointing.  This definitely isnt the machine to save Pinball.  And isnt the Tron that should have been made.

 - The artwork is Dull and Boring.  It represents the 2nd movie in many ways though, which isnt a good thing.   A Tron based on the Original would be so much better...

 - At first I got excited to see what Looked like a classic Steve Ritchie lightning quick "double loop", from the right ramp leading back to the 3rd flipper as a feed-back into more loops.  However, then I realized the ramps just fed back to the flippers.  Snore.

 - All the work to open the center target.. and what do you get?  A cheesy center spinning disc.  Whoop T doo.  The only place this really worked well on was Whirlwind.   It makes no sense on this machine, nor POTC.  Its not exciting nor fun.

 - The Pop bumpers by the ramps/main pathway ... is stupid Imop.  Always has been.

 - Theres a few interesting thing about the layout.. but overall, I just dont see it being that good.


 This cant be a Steve Ritchie game.  It has more hallmarks to a Pat Lawlor game.

 Very sad indeed.

[pinballwizard79]

 

Of course

[Jeff AMN]

Anybody who believes Disney would let Stern make a pinball machine about the original Tron movie is insane. Disney wants the new Tron to be relevant. There's no way that they'd provide Stern either the art assets or the permission to use anything other than the officially licensed art that is provided by Disney.

[purpledrillmonkey]

Disappointed overall. Not because the game looks bad or un-fun, but because it doesnt look like Tron to me. Tron's appeal has always been the absolute minimalist visuals with hyper saturated color. This table visually looks like sensory overload (like most modern pins) and I was hoping the minimalist visuals of Tron would make its way in.

Imo, everything on the table should be solid gloss black wherever possible, with glowing highlights and inserts in blue red and yellow. The only thing the player should be seeing is edges and highlights - not a bunch of pictures and graphics.

I was really hoping for a solid black playfield with some sorts of inserts or displays which would glow and change like when Jeff Bridges reprograms the falling elevator in the movie. The whole 'display on glass' look would be killer in this application.

Instead we have a machine covered in graphics and pictures that looks just like any other modern pin. I'm sure it will be fun, but it doesn't look like Tron.

[Jeff AMN]

While I can agree with that sentiment, I doubt Disney would go for it.

[Xiaou2]

Anybody who believes Disney would let Stern make a pinball machine about the original Tron movie is insane. Disney wants the new Tron to be relevant. There's no way that they'd provide Stern either the art assets or the permission to use anything other than the officially licensed art that is provided by Disney.

 Ohh, I didnt know you worked for the Disney IP  dept 

 Disney isnt going to care what theme you choose, so long as you are paying the fees.

 Disney Just released the Original Tron in Blueray, so it Could have been leveraged as a promotion for that, if it even needed to go that route...  and the New Tron is long past its movie release date... thus mega promotion now, is pretty much pointless.

 What I do find amazing, is that Disney let such a crappy project fly (IE: Crappy art, crappily done machine).  I doubt that such a thing would have flown back anywhere near or before the 80s.

 Then again, look at the poor quality of Disney nowaday, and even in the new Tron movie.

 Disney isnt the same company that was ran when Walt was alive, nor even past a certain point of his passing.  Once it went super corporate... it became generic and crap, like everything else thats puppeteered out there, by stock ownership from clueless rich men whos only interest Is making more MONEY.

 And hence I rest my case.  Money is key, and more sales = more money to Disney... new, or old theme, it doesnt matter to the stock holders / controllers.

[Jeff AMN]

I'd say that ignorance is bliss, but Xiaou2 only seems to have lots of one and none of the other.

Gary Stern himself talked about how the art is handled on the machines these days and how art files are provided by the license holders and that their art department has to use those files to create their machines. They can't use a license in a way that is not agreed upon when the license is secured.

Also, you can't say that it's a "crappily done machine" until you've tried it. I haven't felt entirely impressed by Avatar, but Tron looks to at least be better than that from a sheer layout standpoint. Who knows how I'll feel until I give it a try though. I don't pass judgments on games without PLAYING them first.

[nostrebor]

 Disney isnt going to care what theme you choose, so long as you are paying the fees.

 

Utter and complete nonsense.

[Xiaou2]

Also, you can't say that it's a "crappily done machine" until you've tried it.

 Actually I can and did.

 Not just for because of the visual playability and lackings of anything Fun on the table...
But because the table looks like BUTT... and if I were Disney, I wouldnt want our companies name and quality tarnished by such amateur photoshop clip art... rather than a Skilled artists that actually has talent.  You know... Disney actually used to stand for Animation and Artwork quality..  And even though that has slid, its still a far cry from what Stern Crapped out in a quick minute.

 I have no idea why Anyone would support a rushed POS, that doesnt even come close to LOTR in quality, let alone represent Tron.  All I can say is "Fanboyism" isnt realism.

 Put your 5grand into this machine?  Or 3gs into a Willaims that will be 100x as fun, looks and plays better...   Hmm.... lets see...  (let alone some of the other Sterns which are still 10x better than this generic poop)

[RayB]

Disney isnt going to care what theme you choose, so long as you are paying the fees.

  The bigger the corporation the stricter they are with their IP. They get final say. They can veto pretty much anything they feel impacts the integrity of their IP. They can even revoke a license if they feel a licensee is not meeting their standards.

[TOK]

But because the table looks like BUTT... and if I were Disney, I wouldnt want our companies name and quality tarnished by such amateur photoshop clip art...

Have you seen Tron Legacy? The movie was a piece of crap. If Disney cared about anything except fleecing suckers out of their money, they'd start fixing the issues at the top! 

[pinballwizard79]

Xiaou2 please post less, enjoy life more & lighten up Francis.

I want to play this machine RIGHT NOW!

P.S. Tron Legacy was a 2 hour Daft Punk video.

[Harakiri]

1990's:



Relatively simplistic inked artwork filled with gadgets, toys, ramps and video modes.

2011:



Relatively simplistic gameplay filled with a cluttered artwork to make it look more than what really is...

[Xiaou2]

Harakiri, one thing to note... is that while you could say that "some" of the Inked art is a little simple, look a little more closely at the detailed stuff, such as the characters.  They are far more artistic than a photoshopped picture... and not easy at all, for a non-artist to reproduce. (IE: not simple at all)

 Most of what you see on the new Tron pin is very simple color Grad fills.
It just doesnt work too well when the entire field is a set of color grads, with some photos pasted on it.

 In this case, and with many of their others... it makes it harder to make anything out, because everything looks the same.   Another problem, is the choice to make a light-beam as the center graphic.  It creates an illusion of something too bright.. and really distracts the eyes/brain.  It gets to feeling like you are staring at the sun.

[Harakiri]

Harakiri, one thing to note... is that while you could say that "some" of the Inked art is a little simple, look a little more closely at the detailed stuff, such as the characters.  They are far more artistic than a photoshopped picture... and not easy at all, for a non-artist to reproduce. (IE: not simple at all)

 Most of what you see on the new Tron pin is very simple color Grad fills.
It just doesnt work too well when the entire field is a set of color grads, with some photos pasted on it.

 In this case, and with many of their others... it makes it harder to make anything out, because everything looks the same.   Another problem, is the choice to make a light-beam as the center graphic.  It creates an illusion of something too bright.. and really distracts the eyes/brain.  It gets to feeling like you are staring at the sun.

I agree with what you say though i wasn't referring to the inked art as being dull or boring, i still love the traditional method the most. New school artistic representation of playfields (photoshop art) is used to disguise the lack of content the table should have and that feels kinda sad...

[FrizzleFried]

Ohh, I didnt know you worked for the Disney IP  dept  

 Disney isnt going to care what theme you choose, so long as you are paying the fees.

[edit - unnecessary comment removed by author.  I apologize X.]

Disney Just released the Original Tron in Blueray, so it Could have been leveraged as a promotion for that, if it even needed to go that route...  and the New Tron is long past its movie release date... thus mega promotion now, is pretty much pointless.

...and what did they release along side of the OLD Tron on Blu-Ray?  Oh yeah... the NEW Tron on Blu-Ray/DVD...  [edit - referral to unnecessary comment above removed]

 

What I do find amazing, is that Disney let such a crappy project fly (IE: Crappy art, crappily done machine).  I doubt that such a thing would have flown back anywhere near or before the 80s.

 Then again, look at the poor quality of Disney nowaday, and even in the new Tron movie.

 Disney isnt the same company that was ran when Walt was alive, nor even past a certain point of his passing.  Once it went super corporate... it became generic and crap, like everything else thats puppeteered out there, by stock ownership from clueless rich men whos only interest Is making more MONEY.

 And hence I rest my case.  Money is key, and more sales = more money to Disney... new, or old theme, it doesnt matter to the stock holders / controllers.

OK... I can't argue completely with this... but then again it flies in the face of your prior two statements.  If you (A) know that Disney is all about "making money" today then why would you (B) think they'd even consider allowing Stern to run with a "classic" Tron theme?  [edit - unnecessary comment removed. Again,  I apologize to X.]
 

[Xiaou2]

...and what did they release along side of the OLD Tron on Blu-Ray?  Oh yeah... the NEW Tron on Blu-Ray/DVD.

 See my comment about probably not even needing leveraging...

If you (A) know that Disney is all about "making money" today then why would you (B) think they'd even consider allowing Stern to run with a "classic" Tron theme?

 Di$ney doesnt care where the money comes from.  They obviously dont care if its Tron 1 or 2...  as you can see by the release dates being the same time period.  The people demanded the original Tron.  Disney knew they would, and in their typical greedy & shady style... they took all original DVDs off the store shelves right before the 2nd movie hit.  This drove demand for it through the roof, as many ppl wanted to see 1 before 2.  Not to mention the nostalgia and desire for Tron 1 fans to want to buy it.

 Furthermore, theres much more chance of selling pre-existing fans of Tron1 a pinball machine, rather than the newbies, who probably dont have the money, nor the care to invest in the simplistic and overpriced POS.  More sales = more potential income from royalty percentage deals.


 IF this were the old Disney, Id say that the chance of getting rights to Tron 1 would have been very slim.  But that said, the old Disney probably would have made Tron 2 about 200,000 times better than what was released... and at least the same goodness, if not better, than the 1st movie.  That certainly wasnt the case here and now.

 The New Disney is a money grubbin pig.  Not a happy little mouse.  You make the offer to do Tron 1, and they either accept or deny it.  Id say they had an excellent chance to get the Original License.

 As you can see by the Lack of quality of the  """f-artwork?"""  on Sterns machine... that they certainly dont care about their IP.   The old Disney never would have let such substandard crap fly.  They would have forced their own staffs artists to re-work the thing well before allowing some craptastic photoshop hack to tarnish the Disney IP with meritocracy, let alone with absolute garbage.

 If this were any other company, I may agree with the points raised.  But its not.
Is Uncle money bags $$$, and he has no artistic integrity.

[TOK]

 Di$ney doesnt care where the money comes from.  They obviously dont care if its Tron 1 or 2...  as you can see by the release dates being the same time period.  The people demanded the original Tron.  Disney knew they would, and in their typical greedy & shady style... they took all original DVDs off the store shelves right before the 2nd movie hit.  This drove demand for it through the roof, as many ppl wanted to see 1 before 2.  Not to mention the nostalgia and desire for Tron 1 fans to want to buy it.

Disney pushed back the Tron Blu-Ray release until after Tron 2 hit theaters because they were afraid people would see it and then not want to see the sequel. You do understand Disney wasn't making money on $75 Tron DVD's off ebay sales from private sellers, right?

[Jeff AMN]

In this thread Xiaou2 proves that he has no business sense.

Nor common sense.

[RayB]

Someone on the interwebz said that the government bought properties and built empty prisons, therefore it MUST be true!

[Xiaou2]

As for Tok comment, it Could be true, but nobody knows for sure.  As far as I know, no other Remake has ever went so far as to take DVDs off store shelves.

 And nobody knows IF Disney wasnt reselling its bounty on ebay at inflated prices either.  Most people dont turn up the opportunity to cash in on easy money.

 Disney has a reputation for holding back releases, and taking other releases off shelves for years at a time, to create demand.

[TOK]

I read it on half a dozen different web sites as I was searching for the Blu-Ray after its release date came and went. Disney was afraid the original movie didn't age well for anyone except for its original cult audience. They didn't want the teens and twenty-somethings to avoid Tron Legacy based on that. Given how huge the Tron hype was at the time, I don't like what they did, but I definitely agree with their assessment.

Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer!  

[piecesof8]

I'm trying to retain some excitement about this, but it's not really working out for me. Maybe the anticipation killed it for me (OMG A TRON PINBALL!), but when I first saw the pics it just felt like all that excitement I was feeling slowly deflated. Not that the game itself necessarily looks bad - I think it's probably an improvement over the last couple. I guess I was just hoping for something... More? Less? Different? in the art department.

I understand they have to work with what the licensor gives them, but on the other hand I'm sitting here at work looking at my Disney twenty-three Tron Legacy mousepad:


(not my pic - I just googled it)

Black background, blue outlined lettering, clean lines of color standing out against the overwhelming black. That image says Tron to me. The cluttered photoshop collage on the playfield above doesn't. I do like what they did with the lightcycles on the sides of the cabinet, and I think if they had carried that style over to the rest of the game it would feel a lot more "Tron" to me.

Maybe when we get to see the enhancements on the LE version that'll change my mind.

On a side note, we just put a new roof on our house. It cost almost the exact same amount as a Tron LE. Stupid priorities.

[Vigo]

I have to completely agree with ya, piecesof8. The thing is that the art problem cannot just be pinned on Disney (No pun intended). Yes, the Stern art department has to work with what they are given to a degree, but up until the approval stage, when they have to go back to Disney with the prototype product, Stern can design everything exactly how they want it.

So why in the world would Stern become complacent and just accept whatever art they are given, then slap it on in an amateur fashion? This single product is their lifeblood, why just put it all in the hands of what Disney wants? No business ever thinks that way. If they need better art, they should go back get more artwork from Disney. There is plenty to go around on a heavily marketed movie like Tron Legacy.

Chances are that Disney would approve about anything that looks good. They don't have the time to nitpick every product to it's detail. They probably won't say anything unless there is something that raises a red flag like orange zombie goats on the playfield. (Might be an improvement on this one).

[ChadTower]

Chances are that Disney would approve about anything that looks good. They don't have the time to nitpick every product to it's detail.

This is not consistent with anything about anything Disney has ever done.  Disney is notorious for micromanagement of their licenses to the point that most major media outlets won't work with them anymore.  That's why you used to see Disney all over network TV and tons of cable stations and now you don't.  They did the same thing to PoTC when Stern made that.  Disney themselves pretty much did the artwork and told Stern "this is what you get and if you don't like it find another license".  Disney makes so much money that they could give a crap about Stern's money compared to strict control over every aspect of a license.

Remember, if they make a concession to Stern, that is precedent for another licensee to demand the same concession.

[Vigo]

You could be right on that aspect, I don't know for sure. I do understand that Stern would also feel obligated to make a Tron pinball work because it is a license that will sell.

However, after seeing the Rolling Stones machine, a license that Stern should not give a serious crap about, and how that artwork is incredibly unappealing, I am really leaning towards that Stern is just taking whatever art they are given and not doing a professional enough job with it.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, Rolling Stones is a tossout game probably from a design they had lying around mostly complete.  It wasn't a full on corporate project like Tron.

[piecesof8]

I actually have some firsthand experience with this, and Chad is right for the most part: Disney is EXTREMELY protective of their brand(s) and what elements you can and can't use.

But... I don't think there would be anyone at Disney telling Stern's art department exactly how they have to arrange/use the elements they are given. I feel like they could have used the elements as required by the licensor (to please Disney), but still do something more creative with them than what I'm seeing above. Maybe I'm wrong and Disney handed Stern the ready-made collage to slap directly onto the playfield, but I don't think so.

[Vigo]

That's kinda my point of view on it. From the couple - small scale - design projects I have been involved with, I kinda know how the game works. You take what you are given, and make it as awesome as possible. Nag for better source material is you need to. If the licensor wants changes, you do the bare minimum to that would damage the aesthetic appeal, and always push your point that their idea does not work nearly as well. In the end, if you played your cards right, it still ends up looking fine.


But, some dink at Disney might have come in and demanded all be cluttered with blotchy blue blobs, a cameo for every character in ways that don't incorporate to the game, and close ups of jeff bridge's grizzle.... 

[ChadTower]

Everything you've heard about Disney and Stern comes from one unsourced post on RGP that was along the lines of "Disney was hard to work with".  Anything you've read beyond that is a complete fantasy that's been invented by someone else, and even that first post has been debunked.

I'm not talking about just that.  Disney has this reputation across all products they license and has for 20 years now.

[piecesof8]

I like the artwork on Pirates of the Caribbean, by the way. 

[Vigo]

I haven't seen it in person, but from the online images I saw, my biggest beef was the backglass art with Davy Jones and Jack Sparrow that plopped in the lower left. The treasure chest looks off as well. It might be a case where it just looks better in person.

[ChadTower]

I haven't seen it in person, but from the online images I saw, my biggest beef was the backglass art with Davy Jones and Jack Sparrow that plopped in the lower left. The treasure chest looks off as well. It might be a case where it just looks better in person.

It doesn't look better in person.  I really like the game and I say that.

[piecesof8]

Yeah, the backglass certainly could've been better, but I personally think the playfield art is far above the "copy-n-paste a bunch of photos" rut that Stern seems to have fallen into now. I was just trying to illustrate that it's possible to work with a restrictive licensor and still end up with a nice finished product.

[RayB]

I personally worked with Disney licensing in the early 90's for video games (as well as with Warner Bros. Animation licensing). I can say that Chad is 100% right. They micromanage. They also don't always understand the product. Keep in mind, they don't fill their licensing department with pinball fans. It's filled with bureaucratic types whose mandate is to preserve the integrity of the IP and keep their supervisors happy.  Since they don't play pinball, they don't understand where and how some concessions need to be made.

However, that doesn't excuse Stern from not designing something more "Tronny" than this. So they have just as much blame to share. (Unless of course, they *did* start off with something more "Tronny" and then Disney looked at RS, IM, and Avatar and said "hey, why doesn't Tron look like your other pinablls?". You never know...)

[ChadTower]

Right, except that there's a gazillion crappy licensed Disney products in every single store you walk into.  My god, there's probably something Disney themed in the hardware store if you look hard enough. 

Ever notice that they all look nearly identical in all aspects of design?  Nobody is allowed to deviate in any way from the template.

[Jeff AMN]

It's not bad on the Stern game... that game is dinged more by certifiable --cream-filled twinkie-- Fred Young's voice work. 

Ahahaha, Fred Young. His interview with Clay was one of the most bizarre and sad things ever. The guy things VERY highly of himself and his talents. About 90% of his voices during that interview fall flat and he's just rolling in his amazing talents anyway.

[Jeff AMN]

His Homer Simpson sounded more like Norm from Cheers anyway.

I was actually shopping out a pin (Jackbot, I believe) and I had to keep stopping and just wondering if it was all a joke.

[RayB]

The flyer:

Front: http://www.maaca.org/download/file.php?id=2974&mode=view

Back: http://www.maaca.org/download/file.php?id=2973&mode=view

MSRP: $5699 *ouch*

*UPDATE* (june 28): Saw it priced in a showroom at $4990 which is what Iron Man originall retailed for, so no worries on price being jacked.

[ChadTower]

Holy crap.  Not that a NIB pin was ever even on my radar but you have to wonder at what point the train just stops rolling because of rising prices.

[Jeff AMN]

What do you want to bet that the extra cost is due to Jersey Jack selling his Wizard of Oz for so much? I'm guess that Stern feels that they have more wiggle room with pricing now.

Operators have to be counting the numbers of Big Buck Hunters they're going to be putting into location instead of the next pin...

[ChadTower]

Raising your prices based on a vaporware competitor would be a horrible business move.

[Jeff AMN]

Nah, Wizard of Oz will come out in some form. If they have to cut features, they will, but Jack has a pretty strong ego and he's not going to fail putting out a game.

[ChadTower]

Nah, Wizard of Oz will come out in some form. If they have to cut features, they will, but Jack has a pretty strong ego and he's not going to fail putting out a game.

It's not a smart business move to adjust your prices based on assumptions about competitors in general.  Until the game actually does come out it would be foolish of Stern to adjust their practices as a result of anything Jersey Jack says.  Adjust based on data.  All Jersey Jack has is assumptions at this point. 

[Jeff AMN]

Nah, Wizard of Oz will come out in some form. If they have to cut features, they will, but Jack has a pretty strong ego and he's not going to fail putting out a game.

It's not a smart business move to adjust your prices based on assumptions about competitors in general.  Until the game actually does come out it would be foolish of Stern to adjust their practices as a result of anything Jersey Jack says.  Adjust based on data.  All Jersey Jack has is assumptions at this point. 

Yeah, but this is pinball. Bad business decisions have ruled this industry for decades.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, but this is pinball. Bad business decisions have ruled this industry for decades.

Dunno.  Stern may make a lot of bad design decisions but they do still exist.  The business decisions must be at least competent.

[Jeff AMN]

They've done what they've needed to do to stay in business, but part of it is the stubborn nature of pinball players and how they'll keep supporting the hobby to the bitter end. But yeah, Stern has managed to stick around while nobody else could, so there is something to that.

[Jeff AMN]

I wonder if the investors are pinning their hopes in emergent markets buying up pinball machines. I don't see why some Asian markets couldn't give sales a significant bump if they were marketed correctly.

[ChadTower]

I wonder if the investors are pinning their hopes in emergent markets buying up pinball machines. I don't see why some Asian markets couldn't give sales a significant bump if they were marketed correctly.

Because entertainment technology flows out of Asia and not into it?

[TOK]

Because entertainment technology flows out of Asia and not into it?

They have a taste for different stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if Stern sold a lot in China.
GM killed Pontiac instead of Buick because they sold more Buicks in China than Buick and Pontiac combined in the US.

Would you want a Buick? I sure as hell wouldn't! There might be a huge market for ---smurfy--- pinball machines with clip art themes.

[RayB]

The flyer:

Front: http://www.maaca.org/download/file.php?id=2974&mode=view

Back: http://www.maaca.org/download/file.php?id=2973&mode=view

MSRP: $5699 *ouch*

I just wanted to clarify/update so as not to mislead people: I saw Tron at Toronto's Playdium Store and it was priced the same as Iron Man was: $4990 (Canadian). They are currently selling Iron man for $4890. (Keep in mind our dollar is worth more than US, though not by much).

As for is it fun? The volume on it was kind of low, so I couldn't appreciate the sounds and music much. Playfield seems sparse. I played 1 game then moved on to play a LE LotR, LE RS, IM, ... even Dale Jr. had more interesting playfield features.