Avoiding a Frankenpanel...

[Vigo]

Snarf?

[Xiaou2]

I guess I may have played more console gaming from ages earlier than you have, but I am used to joysticks just as much as controllers. Atari, commodore, nes advantage. made no difference in orientation to screen when using the joysticks, even when I used the arcade bat style joysticks.

 My Grampa showed us a Vic20 when it first came out. I think I was 7.. maybe.  He gave us his C64, when he went to c128, owned a 2600, played coleco, nes, and intellivision systems. Bought an Amiga, Sega Master, Sega Genesis/CDX, Snes, Lynx, NeoGeo CD, PS1, PS2, and prolly something else Im forgetting.

 Ive played on just about every type of controller and joystick you can imagine, on both home systems, and the arcades.  I grew up in a city where arcades were monstrous in the 80s, And as said, I managed a busy mall arcade for 3yrs.

 Ive seen it all. Ive fixed it all.  Ive even hand built my own controllers from scratch.

 I currently own 3 coinop machines, and 3 pins.  I own two of almost every controller that has ever been created for an arcade machine.

 Im no slouch when it comes to game skillz either.  And as for coordination, concentration, and orientation... Im a skilled martial artist, starting at age 20, now am 37.  I can stop a full speed strike within a mm of the target if I so choose, have used a Shaolin toe stab to accurately nab pressure points on a moving live skilled artist.  Have demo'd sightless responses to attacks (using feel, positioning, and awareness alone).  Ive redirected a strike + hit the target with the other hand + kicked a limb... all in the same moment of time,  in full contact sparring many times.
Few have developed the level of skills and bodily awareness that Ive attained.

I agree that is true with a traditional arcade machine, but with home machines and pedestal machine expanding, I think players can disassociate themselves with the monitor more and connect to the controls more. That's my experience at least.  I dunno!

 Id be pretty much willing to bet money you couldnt play the angled sticks and beat a good player in an intensive game (like a modern fighting game) against them.  All it takes is one slip up... and Id bet you have slipped up many more times than that in a single session.  Though, Im betting you have never really spent any real depth of time playing angled controls. Probably stuck your guest on them instead.

 As for Pedestals, it doesnt matter.  For one thing, there are many large 4p control panels out there, such as the original D&D games.  There were also many Pedestal games made in the 90s/00s.

I agree you can't angles the controls on a Gauntlet. My only point is that for home machines, angled joysticks can work as long as certain conditions are right. Conditions that were not found ever effective on commercial machines, so they were not used. Conditions like space for each player, a degree of separation from the screen, and a clear angled set of controls that the player knows can acknowledge the angle they are playing at.

 For one, I can tell you havent seen a lot of the larger 4player cps that were in the arcades.  Gauntlet is a rare exception with its highly condensed CP.  Most of the others are beasts, and used non-enclosed 25" monitors, with plenty of viewability for all the players.  NONE of these angled the sticks, when clearly they COULD have done so to save space and money.  Of course, this is all ignoring all the rigorous testing and feedback they got from massed of players...

 As Ive said before, it does not matter if the CP has a definite angle, nor if the buttons are also at that perfect angle.  The player will STILL mess up and press into the screen instead of at the diagonal thats required.  If you are deep in the game, you will lose your ability to make the additional translation corrections.  And being that you still cant FEEL the angles, you will easily lose track of it.

 If you yourself havent yet had this problem, then its probably to do with the game being easy as pie, and you not playing for a very long period of time.. or you are simply looking past the mistakes you made because you cant handle the fact that all your hard work that your so proud of, was made out of ignorance, and is poorly functioning.

[Vigo]

  I think it's my cue to not even respond to this junk anymore. You say one little thing that goes against these people's dogma, and they won't stop. I guess if I don't conform to agree with explicit opinions of the self proclaimed forum wizards, I'm shunned with great walls of text, trampolines, hotdogs, and claims that I am the arrogant one.





I hope this ends this madness.

Ahem. Your attention please. 

1) There is never ever ever ever any situation where an angled joystick can be used around any kind of arcade related machine...ever. Just because I was forced to angle my joysticks so that my guests would no longer be confused by the controls only proves that angled controls are always bad...somehow.

2) I was not an arcade manager, therefore I can't state any opinion that is not shared by the wizards, even it it has nothing to do with real commercial arcade machines.

3) Crappy spelling and walllz of text is da bomb!

4) I am not allowed to try to form any form of "best games" list because I am incapable of knowing what games I like.
(I still don't get that one.)

5) Centipede RULEEZ!!

[Xiaou2]

[scofthe7seas]

You absolutely lost every potential ounce of credability with the phrase "Shaolin Toe Stab". 

 I literally could not read further. I was trying, I was going along with what you were saying. Then boom. Had to stop.

[drventure]

I thought it was "Shoalin toe STUB"

Damn, that'd hurt....

[Xiaou2]

The Term is loosely based on who I saw using it.  Id never been officially taught anything Shaolin, (just a few things not worth mention)  mostly only Wing Chun.

 The technique, using the toe much the same as a finger strike / stab.  You get the extended distance, and a deep penetrating strike.  Its also lightning 'jab' fast.

 I personally practiced it on my wall mounted sandbags.  Then later, used it in a sparring match against a Kyokoshin Karate instructor & full contact competitor... striking him in his inner thigh, stopping and stunning him.  Afterwords, he immediately asked what the tech was, as thats the only name I could come up with.

Edit:

 And yes, most people would easily break their toes doing this.  Only with a lot of dedicated and specialized training can you get the digit strong enough for weapon usage, without self damage.

[Donkbaca]

Win chun?

Can't hold a candle to Wang Chung!

All together now "Everybody have fun tonight!..."

[scofthe7seas]

Jebus! Stop explaining the Shaolin Toe Stab!! Stop qualifying your Shaolin Toe Stab accolades! Stop expanding on your prowess of said Shaolin Toe Stab, and the expertise required to perform such a maneuver!
That is NOT making it better. You are Shaolin Toe Stabbing your way into the hole further.

[Xiaou2]

Ohh Scott?  And why exactly is that?  Is it because you think theres no valid techniques in Chinese martial arts systems?

 Over 2000 yrs of dedicated developments are no joke.  Even IF many of its modern practitioners are.

 Its only when you open your mind, will you ever learn what you do not know.
And without that knowledge, you are just as clueless as the next fool.

 No, I dont know the proper chinese term for the tech... unlike with WC, where I know the main terms of the system.  It doesnt make it invalid.

 Then again, I cant imagine a non martial artist having a clue anyways...
let alone a closed minded artist.

 Your more than welcome to look over my training equipment:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22593093@N05/sets/72157621206691424/

 Which includes 4" diameter metal kick poles, hanging bags of steel bbs, a 6ft tall heavy bag, and many other custom built training devices. (based on the original old-skool training devices & methods.  Not a watered down school of performance)

[scofthe7seas]

I honestly have no response to this. Well played, sir.

[Xiaou2]

*Bows*

 Thanks.   

[Donkbaca]

Little known fact, X2 was the inspiration for a Tekken character

[Howard_Casto]

Thanks for posting those, because after this ridiculous "angled joysticks are acceptable" argument I was about to. 

You can't angle your joysticks.... period.  This is one of the few taboos you should never break.  It's right up there with making a "left handed fighter panel" with the buttons on the left and the joystick on the right. 

I mean it's your machine so you can do anything you want, but if you actually want other people to be able to play games on it then there are a few rules you have to stick to.

I also take offense to people calling those giving the correct advice arrogant.  We aren't arrogant, we have been doing this longer, we've built more cabinets then you have, many of us have prior experience in the arcade industry.  In short, we know what we are doing while people newer to the hobby don't.  If we tell you not to do something it is probably because at one point we, or somebody we know tried what you are suggesting and it turned out horribly. 

Learn from our mistakes.... we are here to help, not post judgment.  (Even though sometimes the two blend together).

[scofthe7seas]

If you're referring to Vigo, I don't think he was actually calling anybody arrogant, so much as defending someone calling him that.. :\

[Paul Olson]

Inspiration? Crap, I thought he was a Tekken character.

[CheffoJeffo]

:Sigh

Are you trying to be grating, Cheffo?

I think I was ... it was a little over the top, which is why I killed the post.

[rcub3]

I think it is fair to say that this by now has turned into a Frankenthread.

[alfonzotan]

I think it is fair to say that this by now has turned into a Frankenthread.

I hope you're proud of yourself, Dr. Fronkenthreadsteen.

[Vigo]

:Sigh

Are you trying to be grating, Cheffo?

I think I was ... it was a little over the top, which is why I killed the post.

Hey, thanks for that, since it does no good leaving my post up either, I took it off too.....well....actually I don't know how to delete posts, so I just replaced it with a picture of Snarf. 

If you're referring to Vigo, I don't think he was actually calling anybody arrogant, so much as defending someone calling him that.. :\

Thanks. I think you read these posts better than most.  Heck, I didn't even make it to the Shaolin Toe stab part on X2's post.

[Vigo]

Thanks for posting those, because after this ridiculous "angled joysticks are acceptable" argument I was about to. 

You can't angle your joysticks.... period.  This is one of the few taboos you should never break.  It's right up there with making a "left handed fighter panel" with the buttons on the left and the joystick on the right. 

I mean it's your machine so you can do anything you want, but if you actually want other people to be able to play games on it then there are a few rules you have to stick to.

I also take offense to people calling those giving the correct advice arrogant.  We aren't arrogant, we have been doing this longer, we've built more cabinets then you have, many of us have prior experience in the arcade industry.  In short, we know what we are doing while people newer to the hobby don't.  If we tell you not to do something it is probably because at one point we, or somebody we know tried what you are suggesting and it turned out horribly. 

Learn from our mistakes.... we are here to help, not post judgment.  (Even though sometimes the two blend together).

Hey Howard, I think if you reread the thread you would see I am not really pushing anyone towards angled joysticks, I am merely pointing out that it ended up working for me. I am not calling anyone who says otherwise wrong, arrogant, or giving incorrect advice or anything. I even point out that I always believed the same thing. I just recently came to the realization that there can be an exception to the rule, but I didn't even know why.

I think if anything useful is to be gotten out of this whole thing, it is that there are tried and true standards, and that is where anyone with questions is to be directed toward. Overall, this is the builder's personal machine, and they can build it however they want, even if they want buttons on the left, or angle joysticks or a 3 headed ostrich glued to it. Just make a test panel to try out what works best before investing in making the finished product.


Also, sorry rcub3. I never intended this to turn into a "religious debate".

[scofthe7seas]

Back on topic: Avoiding a Frankenpanel.

Don't put weird asymmetrical ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on there, agreed?

[Donkbaca]

nah, you can be symmetrical and still have  a franken panel.  To avoid a franken panel, build one that will play most things, not everything

[Xiaou2]

The debate is like the choice of Car you want to drive.

  A sports car has pretty lines, a powerful engine, superior performance components, superior handling at high speeds...

But if has negatives:

 No storage space, only 2 seats, fuel costs, very expensive to purchase & own, no AC, limited gadgetry, horrible ride for long trips (stiff suspension).


 So maybe you want a minivan?  It can transport a lot more stuff... but, it doesnt look too good comparatively.

 What about some sort of crossover?   They have sleeker body lines... however, the capacity to hold stuff is extremely reduced.


 The solution that mirrors a lot of the bashing around here:

 Buy all types of cars.  One for each type of purpose you need / want.

 Drawback?   Not everyone can afford that solution.  Not everyone has the garage space to contain them.  Not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of swapping cars all the time... rather than just driving a single vehicle.


 From the pictures here, we can see that D&D doesnt look very nice.  However, if you like that game, you dont really care.  Its got 4 players w/ 4 buttons, in a relatively small space to fit 4 people.  Its the minivan of control panels.

 The Gauntlet pedestal cab, is much more pleasing visually, but its also much wider, and required a pedestal for viewing angles to be Ok.  This takes up much more floor space.  With the superior artwork and nicer layout, I guess you could consider this a  Stretch Limo.  (even this one isnt perfectly symmetrical, due to saving a little more space.  Most well functioning cabs are not symmetrical. Then again, many artworks are against symmetry   )

 And Vigo, with his steering wheels and pedals at 45 degree angles.. is driving a custom built   "accident waiting to happen" car      (sorry, couldnt resist Vigo)


 Anyways, the deal is that its up to the individual as to whats most important to them.  Ride comfort, storage, looks, price, space, etc.  There can be any number of combination of assemblies to get the desired results... but make no mistake, you cant get everything you want without Some sort of compromise.

 The best solution could be said as purchase of an entire Arcade... but not everyone could do that.  And even then, the compromise is money, repair costs/time, higher electric bills, heating/cooling expenses for the building/space, etc.

 There are many solutions to getting more options than was standard.  But as said, there will still always be some compromises.

 Drive what you like.  Play what you like. 

 Make a list of whats most important to you beforehand, and go from there.

[Vigo]

And Vigo, with his steering wheels and pedals at 45 degree angles.. is driving a custom built   "accident waiting to happen" car      (sorry, couldnt resist Vigo)

And people said it was my driving that was 45 degrees off. See? It was the car all along.

Oh wait, this is an analogy?




Well, I guess I had that coming.....

[Donkbaca]

Make a list of whats most important to you beforehand, and go from there.

You need every know and then X2 says something that makes sense

[Vigo]

Make a list of whats most important to you beforehand, and go from there.

You need every know and then X2 says something that makes sense

.....Unlike the sentance you just formed. 

[CheffoJeffo]

 

[Malenko]

The debate is like the choice of Car you want to drive.

  A sports car has pretty lines, a powerful engine, superior performance components, superior handling at high speeds...

But if has negatives:

 No storage space, only 2 seats, fuel costs, very expensive to purchase & own, no AC, limited gadgetry, horrible ride for long trips (stiff suspension).

Where do you buy your cars from? Subaru Imprezza starts at $25k and its 4 door. If you get a WRX and or STi AWD edition its a turbo charged horizontally opposed flat 4. Has AC, gadgets, and an adjustable suspension.

Oh wait, this was another one of your "rants about ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- Xiaou2 doesn't know about" my bad. Sorry, do go on........

From the pictures here, we can see that D&D doesnt look very nice.  However, if you like that game, you dont really care.  Its got 4 players w/ 4 buttons, in a relatively small space to fit 4 people.  Its the minivan of control panels.

Again with the "we", YOU say it doesn't look very nice. I think its a FINE (Sunset Riders? Single speaker panel means its not a Simpsons cab) conversion.

And Vigo, with his steering wheels and pedals at 45 degree angles.. is driving a custom built   "accident waiting to happen" car      (sorry, couldnt resist Vigo)

I kno rite? Its not like any carcade games (see what I did there?) that came out did that.......
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=7551



This isnt even fun anymore, its too easy. =(
can someone get X to pass the --cream-filled twinkie-- baton back to Chad?

[Howard_Casto]

Malenko... X2... I love/hate you both (what day is it again?  I can't remember which side of the slash I'm supposed to be using) but you've gotta relax a bit. 


Pretty sure you guys have gone into the personal region and out of the debate region considering that Malenko just posted a pic of a cabinet with steering wheels and the wheels that X2 was talking about were "analogy steering wheels" (referring to joysticks being put at a 45, which is a big no-no).


Just no fighting please.... everybody is supposed to be mad at me, it just feels akward when the hostility is directed at someone deserving. 

[Donkbaca]

meh.... People get mad at me to. I flip between knowledgeable, funny and obnoxious

I think you build what you want, but if what you want is this:

http://wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/3.html

I have every right to make fun of you

[Howard_Casto]

p.s. 

Andy Warren of Ultimarc just announced that the new "Ultralux Analogy Steering Wheels" will be available this fall!  The are compatable not only with MAME but any comparsions you want to make between driving and life!

p.p.s.

RandyT just announced that the new "AnalogyWiz Steering Wheels" will be available this fall as well!  Randy assures me they will be better than the crappy Ultralux wheels in every way but was a little vague as to how.  Something to do with some leds, a wizard, and Captain Marvel??


p.p.p.s.

+1 bounus points to anyone who figures out why mentioning Randy and Captain Marvel is funny.




Ok I'm done..... really need to sleep better at night to quiet the voices.

[Howard_Casto]

meh.... People get mad at me to. I flip between knowledgeable, funny and obnoxious

I think you build what you want, but if what you want is this:

http://wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/3.html

I have every right to make fun of you

Agreed!!

[Xiaou2]

Where do you buy your cars from? Subaru Imprezza starts at $25k and its 4 door. If you get a WRX and or STi AWD edition its a turbo charged horizontally opposed flat 4. Has AC, gadgets, and an adjustable suspension.

 Besides being an Analogy, the meaning was more in line with true sportcars. Such as the ones which are pretty much all carbon fiber, and have no thrills interior, and cost WAY more than $25k.

  They also look about 200,000 times as Hot as the cars you listed.  Hence my point.
But anyways, I see you just cant seem to stop your infatuation with me... so carry on...

I kno rite? Its not like any carcade games (see what I did there?) that came out did that.......
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=7551

 Wow.  Try again meloozer.  Thats 45 degrees in the other Plane.  You know, such as the drivers wheel pointing towards the drivers side window.  IE: HORIZONTALLY 45 degrees, not vertical.

 I tell you... the school system plan of making sure kids cant actually think correctly & logically, has definitely worked.

[yotsuya]

Out of all the CrapMame cabs, my favorite is Pac-Matt. Why the track ball is 2 feet to the right of the screen is beyond me.

[Xiaou2]

Probably to keep his main controls centered in view, and no problems with crashing his hands into a joystick, as happens with most trackball layouts on cabs, due to the fact that most dont leave enough room for a hard roll.

 The only other explanation, is simply use for navigation, as a mouse.

 Im not saying I agree with his choice, just that I understand it.

 A lot of these guys cant be faulted too much.  You can tell by the Marble contact paper, this stuff is very old, and building a game cabinet was almost unheard of.

 Its like picking on footage of Bruce Lee when he was just starting to learn the arts, VS when he was able to sidekick a 300lb heavy bag to the ceiling.

 Then again, thats what bullies often do.  Pick on others to make themselves look / feel better about themselves.

[Xiaou2]

Btw - I have a great way to resolve any disputes about angled sticks:

 All you do is make a simple game that flashes arrows in a random directions.  Then, the player must immediately (under 1/2 sec time) match the directions displayed.  Three fails in 2 minutes, and the rigged explosive charges go off.

    

[Bootay]

Just use Dragons Lair. 

[saint]

Quit dooshing up threads! 

Bunch of garbage snipped.

[CheffoJeffo]

HC -- nice Captain Marvel reference!