Gyruss --- Joystick or Dial?

[Woodshop Flunky]

I was looking at MAWS and saw that Gyruss had an 8 way joystick and one button listed as controls.

I remember LOVING this game as a kid, but I don't recall the CP.  Does this game really use a joystick?  If so, that seems really awkward.  I'm putting a spinner on my CP, and was wondering if I could use that instead for control?

Has anyone done this?

[vorghagen]

MAWS is right. Original machine used an 8way joystick and that's how I've always played it in MAME. I do recall seeing someone write a mod that enabled you to use a spinner though. The video that accompanied it showed that you were able to go through a full circle almost instantly. I think it would take a lot of the challenge out of the game if you could move that quickly, so I didn't look into any further.

[vorghagen]

Found the thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=81745.0

[Woodshop Flunky]

Thanks for the info!

I loved the game as a kid, so the 8way joy must have been okay.  The spinner hack does look interesting though.  I liked the idea of Timepilot on a spinner.

[Xiaou2]

It uses a special version 8 way joystick called "Monroe" joysticks.

 They have a circular restrictor, and a spherical pivot, so it flows very smoothly in a circle.

 While you can hack the thing to use a spinner.. it will just make the game way too easy, because the games difficulty is based on your limited speed to dodge.

 Tempest however, is designed with much more enemy intesnity and fast action, and thus you NEED to be able to dodge & move very quickly.   If you were limited on speed, you wouldnt last more than a few seconds.

[leapinlew]

If you ask me, a few games deserved a spinner. Gyruss and Time Pilot. They should've ramped up the difficulty on those games to make the spinner make more sense.

[Xiaou2]

And would you say that Galaga and Space Invaders should also have a spinner too?
Surely they should be able to dodge at warp speed... and then the alien count increased to 50 per drop + 20 bullets at once?

 Limitations in hardware, memory, costs..ect..  are surely factors of what got put into a game, and what got scrapped.

 However, there is also difficulty, as well as making money, that factors in too.

 IMOP, Donkey Kong isnt that good. Mario moves way too slow, climbing the ladders is clunky at times, and many other flaws.  But, its those very things that had caused impatience to lead to challenge and deaths.
 
 If we were to remake DK with todays Mario speed & physics, a level would take like 5 seconds to beat.  They would have to increase the height, making the game scroll many stories up... just to even attempt to make the game difficult.   The jump height would still have to be tweaked lower, and or barrels made much taller. 

 And after going thru all that trouble... most people would prefer the typical non-limited mario worlds and gameplay.

 
 Anyways, besides the fact that most of these desired changes couldnt exist back then on the hardware they had to work with...  If you are not well understanding of game design / gameplay... its very easy to think such a change would work well... when in fact, it might be a disaster.

 
 Actually a great example that doesnt work well IS Time Pilot.   A plane can not do a standing 360 turn at mach 1 !  Also, a real plane also does not have a spinner to control it... and for good reasons.  If anything, they should have made the game with rudders or dual joysticks. (probably scrapped for cost reasons)  Throttle control would have also made this very interesting... (2 way joy + throttle)

 Gyruss has similar principles using limited speed thruster engines, but it "Could" be made into a tempest style shooter.  Only problem is, the entire game would change as a result.  Probably have to increase enemy hits to make it much more difficult.

 In the end, as a tempest style game, it probably wouldnt even feel right.

 All this coming from a guy who LOVES spinner games.


 Now, realistically speaking, Gyruss with a throttle control (with ability to accelerate to much faster speeds, as well as much slower..)  might make for an interesting remake.


 

[Woodshop Flunky]

I loved playing "Age of Empires" until I discovered a cheat code that allowed me to create as many units as I wanted.  This totally killed the game for me.  I couldn't even go back to playing it normal; the fun was gone.

My original post was because I couldn't recall what type of controller Gyruss used (and I've seen mistakes on MAWS before).  I have no desire to hack or redesign an enjoyable game if those changes take away the challenge.

The idea of a spinner on games that originally used a joystick just gets me thinking IF the gameplay could be improved.

[leapinlew]

I like Galaga and Space invaders with the controls they use.

For me, Gyruss and Time Pilot are games that I use a spinner on because they make the game more enjoyable to play. I'm not particularly good at either game and the spinner control makes it more friendly to play... for me. Ultimately, what it's about is what I like. What you like might be different. My goal when I built my machine is to have fun reliving the classics and finding new games.

Actually a great example that doesnt work well IS Time Pilot.   A plane can not do a standing 360 turn at mach 1 !  Also, a real plane also does not have a spinner to control it... and for good reasons.

I know you would love to have some argument about the control schemes as you enjoy a good argument, even if you take a losing side, but a real plane Xiaou? We are talking about a sprite on the screen which resembles an air plane with infinite bullets, never needs refueling, can fly in space, and is controlled by a single joystick and you are talking about realistic controls? 

[boardjunkie]

It uses a special version 8 way joystick called "Monroe" joysticks.

 They have a circular restrictor, and a spherical pivot, so it flows very smoothly in a circle.

 While you can hack the thing to use a spinner.. it will just make the game way too easy, because the games difficulty is based on your limited speed to dodge.

 Tempest however, is designed with much more enemy intesnity and fast action, and thus you NEED to be able to dodge & move very quickly.   If you were limited on speed, you wouldnt last more than a few seconds.

Those Monroe sticks were pure evil. Finger pinchin' worthless crap design. Centuri was the only mfgr to use them AFAIK. We always swapped them out for Wicos.....

[boardjunkie]

And just how would you use a spinner with this anyway? Its looking for 4 different switch closures....I don't see how you can duplicate that with a spinner....apples and oranges. Plus, the player's ship won't move any faster....so what's the point?

[leapinlew]

And just how would you use a spinner with this anyway? Its looking for 4 different switch closures....I don't see how you can duplicate that with a spinner....apples and oranges. Plus, the player's ship won't move any faster....so what's the point?

Hows them words taste anyhow?

[Woodshop Flunky]

My goal when I built my machine is to have fun reliving the classics and finding new games.

I agree.  I'll likely try using the spinner for some of these games.  If I enjoy them, great; if not... I'll play them like I did originally.

[boardjunkie]

And just how would you use a spinner with this anyway? Its looking for 4 different switch closures....I don't see how you can duplicate that with a spinner....apples and oranges. Plus, the player's ship won't move any faster....so what's the point?

Hows them words taste anyhow?

This must be some kind of MAME hack, 'cause you couldn't do that with the actual hardware.....

[leapinlew]

This must be some kind of MAME hack, 'cause you couldn't do that with the actual hardware.....

3rd post down links to the reference thread from where the video came. It is clearly a Mame hack. Thats the beauty of MAME. Sometimes things are altered to make the game more playable (such as playing vector games on a different display), creating sequels or in this case to customize the controller scheme.

Good times.

[boardjunkie]

Ok then. Now that that's settled, maybe you can contact one of the MAME dev's and have the hack added as part of the driver for the games supported. Seen's how theres so many bootlegs and hacks included already it wouldn't be a bad thing....

[leapinlew]

Ok then. Now that that's settled, maybe you can contact one of the MAME dev's and have the hack added as part of the driver for the games supported. Seen's how theres so many bootlegs and hacks included already it wouldn't be a bad thing....

And risk the fury of Driverman? I don't think so...

[CheffoJeffo]

 

[ark_ader]

I can see now playing 720 with a top spinner could work, but it would have to be Tron control wise, to be usable.

BTW I hate 720, just saying. 

[opt2not]

And would you say that Galaga and Space Invaders should also have a spinner too?
Surely they should be able to dodge at warp speed... and then the alien count increased to 50 per drop + 20 bullets at once?

 Limitations in hardware, memory, costs..ect..  are surely factors of what got put into a game, and what got scrapped.

 However, there is also difficulty, as well as making money, that factors in too.

 IMOP, Donkey Kong isnt that good. Mario moves way too slow, climbing the ladders is clunky at times, and many other flaws.  But, its those very things that had caused impatience to lead to challenge and deaths.
 
 If we were to remake DK with todays Mario speed & physics, a level would take like 5 seconds to beat.  They would have to increase the height, making the game scroll many stories up... just to even attempt to make the game difficult.   The jump height would still have to be tweaked lower, and or barrels made much taller. 

 And after going thru all that trouble... most people would prefer the typical non-limited mario worlds and gameplay.

 
 Anyways, besides the fact that most of these desired changes couldnt exist back then on the hardware they had to work with...  If you are not well understanding of game design / gameplay... its very easy to think such a change would work well... when in fact, it might be a disaster.

 
 Actually a great example that doesnt work well IS Time Pilot.   A plane can not do a standing 360 turn at mach 1 !  Also, a real plane also does not have a spinner to control it... and for good reasons.  If anything, they should have made the game with rudders or dual joysticks. (probably scrapped for cost reasons)  Throttle control would have also made this very interesting... (2 way joy + throttle)

 Gyruss has similar principles using limited speed thruster engines, but it "Could" be made into a tempest style shooter.  Only problem is, the entire game would change as a result.  Probably have to increase enemy hits to make it much more difficult.

 In the end, as a tempest style game, it probably wouldnt even feel right.

 All this coming from a guy who LOVES spinner games.


 Now, realistically speaking, Gyruss with a throttle control (with ability to accelerate to much faster speeds, as well as much slower..)  might make for an interesting remake.
 

I agree.

Before really getting into Gyruss, I thought that a spinner would be better to play on. But as I played Gyruss more and more, figuring out it's mechanics, I found that the game was purposely designed around the use of an 8way.  For instance, there are precise positions on an 8way that correlate to where the ship ends up. It's not only a matter of moving a ship in a direction around a ring. It's a compass...  hitting Up-Left will always send your ship to the 10 o'clock position. Holding Down will send it to the 6 o'clock position, based on where-ever the ship is on screen. This is vital for memorizing enemy patterns and lining up positions quickly to wipe out waves. If this was controlled by a spinner, getting those positions would be much more difficult because of the analog fidelity. Sure, you'd be able to fly around the screen quicker, but getting the exact positions to wipe a wave out would be difficult, especially when it comes to a full 180 positional change. There are plenty of times where you finish up a wave at one position of the screen, then have to immediately move to the opposite side to start the next wave of enemies.
This is of course if you're like me and want to wipe out the full wave for max-points.

I'm a firm believer that games should be played on as close to the original controls they were intended for.

[leapinlew]

I'm a firm believer that games should be played on as close to the original controls they were intended for.

Me too. Especially considering the game was designed with those controls in mind. However, in my case, I wouldn't even play those games without the spinner because I don't like the controls. I'm not arguing that a spinner is better than a joystick - I'm saying it's better for me. I built a spinner based cabinet with Gyruss and Time Pilot being a couple of the games I wanted to play.

Does your firm stance on the original controls go as far as using a nintendo 4 way joystick for donkey kong or do you make a compromise? I don't use a nintendo joystick and I don't feel as if I'm making a compromise. Nintendo chose to use their own crappy 4 way stick which I can't stand. Instead I use a 4 way hardware restricted Wico because thats my preference. If I were forced to use a Nintendo 4 way to play Donkey Kong... I wouldn't play Donkey Kong. No different than me using the spinner.

[Paul Olson]

I use an original DK stick, and I also have a monroe stick for Gyruss. They don't get used much anymore though since I have both games in the garage. I don't enjoy playing either without the correct sticks.

[opt2not]

Does your firm stance on the original controls go as far as using a nintendo 4 way joystick for donkey kong or do you make a compromise?

well I did say "close to the original"...

I would make a compromise from a lower quality stick for sure.

[bobotech]

Purist restorer vs pragmatist mamer.  One wants to experierince the game as it was intended to be experienced in the mid '80s whereas the other just wants to have a fun ole time no matter what.

Neither is wrong, just different ways of enjoying the same hobby.

[Xiaou2]

I like Galaga and Space invaders with the controls they use.

For me, Gyruss and Time Pilot are games that I use a spinner on because they make the game more enjoyable to play. I'm not particularly good at either game and the spinner control makes it more friendly to play... for me.

 If you like Galaga with a stick, then theres no reason you shouldnt like Gyruss with a stick, as they are pretty much the same game.

 If you unrolled Gyruss'es circle so that it was a single screen, it would be Galaga with different graphics.   Same ship speed.  Same limitations. Same skill level required.  (Actually, I think Galaga is the more difficult game cause you can get trapped in a corner with bullets you cant avoid)

 And if you like Gyruss with a spinner... then why wouldnt a spinner be better for Galaga?   As then you could easily dodge enemies & fire like Speedy-Gonzales.
Sorta like "Kick", but even faster.

 You see the parallel?   Both games use the same exact gameplay... and you can deal with the patience and skill level of one... but not the other, even though technically they are the same.

 The Only major difference is getting stuck on a quadrant because you are thinking in 2d.  That quickly fades with very little time spent on the game.   The only other reason to be upset... would be using an 8way that has square restriction.  As the corners would prevent smooth round flow.

Ultimately, what it's about is what I like. What you like might be different. My goal when I built my machine is to have fun reliving the classics and finding new games.

 Its fine to like what you like, but to make comments about how the game SHOULD have been designed is off-base, Imop.

but a real plane Xiaou? We are talking about a sprite on the screen which resembles an air plane with infinite bullets, never needs refueling, can fly in space, and is controlled by a single joystick and you are talking about realistic controls?

 Just because its a video game with limited ability, and glorified for fun, does not negate the general principle of replicating some semblance of realism/physics.  Its one thing to consider unlimited ammo.  Especially if its only a 3 min round.  Its quite another to see a bi-plane spinning at warp speed like a top, in the center of the screen, completely stationary, doing a death-blossom move.

 Honestly, Gyruss is pretty damn easy as it stands.. its only cause you take so many risks that get you killed.  The bullets are very slow, and you can evade everything pretty easily.

 Even if you cluttered the entire screen with loads of aliens.. you couldnt match the Tempest style difficulty that is needed for game balance.

 Tempest doesnt really have a lot of enemies on screen.  What makes up for this, are the green lines that get built fast.  You spend most of your time shooting them down, rather than the actual enemies.  You wouldnt want to do this with Gyruss.  That would be more like 'Tempest 5000'.

 The only other way that comes close, is to increase enemy bullet speeds.  However, since theres so little screen space due to the circle format.. it would be impossible.  Youd have to increase resolution 10 fold, and make all the ships much smaller... with tons of custom AI that uses teamwork to keep you from escaping in the endless circle.

[boardjunkie]

I think Gyruss may have been originally designed with a spinner control in mind, but changed to not have *too* much in common with Tempest. Back then, close tabs were kept on the "other guys" in the industry. Konami prob'ly feared the Atari lawyers coming after them.....

[Hoopz]

Its fine to like what you like, but to make comments about how the game SHOULD have been designed is off-base, Imop.

Metal Slug, should have a Limited Continue system.  At very least, that would
give people incentive to get good... to finally get to see the end.

Good to see how you change your tune depending on the situation....

And considering that you tell every vendor how their product should have been designed without actually using it, I don't think you should tell anyone that they are off base about their opinion.

[pinballwizard79]

This is an awesome hack!

No point in getting in a pissing match, either put it in your machine or dont.

Good work Lew 

[leapinlew]

If you like Galaga with a stick, then theres no reason you shouldnt like Gyruss with a stick, as they are pretty much the same game.

 If you unrolled Gyruss'es circle so that it was a single screen, it would be Galaga with different graphics.   Same ship speed.  Same limitations. Same skill level required.  (Actually, I think Galaga is the more difficult game cause you can get trapped in a corner with bullets you cant avoid)

 And if you like Gyruss with a spinner... then why wouldnt a spinner be better for Galaga?   As then you could easily dodge enemies & fire like Speedy-Gonzales.
Sorta like "Kick", but even faster.

 You see the parallel?   Both games use the same exact gameplay... and you can deal with the patience and skill level of one... but not the other, even though technically they are the same.

 The Only major difference is getting stuck on a quadrant because you are thinking in 2d.  That quickly fades with very little time spent on the game.   The only other reason to be upset... would be using an 8way that has square restriction.  As the corners would prevent smooth round flow.

Pretty dumb dude. Using your logic... I should like all games of a specific genre equally well since they are basically the same. So I assume you enjoy space invaders, galaga and galaxian equally? Same with all the pacmans? See the parallels? pfft.

Ultimately, what it's about is what I like. What you like might be different. My goal when I built my machine is to have fun reliving the classics and finding new games.

Its fine to like what you like, but to make comments about how the game SHOULD have been designed is off-base, Imop.

Yeah, I'm going to continue having an opinion both on what individual game makes should have done to make better games and what the industry as a whole should have done. Guess what Xiaou... this is what we do on this forum. It seems you have plenty of opinions - seems you would be comfortable with others having theirs. I think they SHOULD have made Gyruss with a spinner. So what?

Honestly, Gyruss is pretty damn easy as it stands.. its only cause you take so many risks that get you killed.  The bullets are very slow, and you can evade everything pretty easily.

Since you already know so much about me, guess what finger I'm holding up.

 

[Samstag]

I highly recommend a real monroe stick if you can find one.  I bought one from someone on these forums a long time ago but can't remember who.  Time pilot is one of my favorite games and it plays just like I remember it with a monroe.  I think I'd rather try tempest with a monroe than gyruss with a spinner.

[opt2not]

Purist restorer vs pragmatist mamer.  One wants to experierince the game as it was intended to be experienced in the mid '80s whereas the other just wants to have a fun ole time no matter what.

Neither is wrong, just different ways of enjoying the same hobby.

I consider myself as both types, but there are some games that I must play with as close to the original controls as possible. Robotron, defender, gyruss, pacman and burgertime to name a few.

I dont want to argue with Lew, I like his projects too much and i consider them great inspirations.

[Xiaou2]

space invaders, galaga and galaxian equally? Same with all the pacmans? See the parallels? pfft.

 Space Invaders isnt anywhere near the same gameplay, so no bother to mention.

 Galaga and Gyruss are pretty much identical in ship speed, fire rates, enemy swarms, etc.   Even the dual shot is in there, albeit just not in 2-ship format.

 Galaxians, besides the god awful sounds, uses a much different enemy attack system.  The enemies start from the top, rather than swooping near you and then resting in position.  The games fires a bit slower, no rapid-2nd shot after hitting an enemy, and the ship even seems a little slower too.

 Galaxians also did not have the scaling enemies (grows and shrinks in size).
Both Galaga and Gyuss basically share that.  They even both have bonuses for taking out an entire swarms of enemies.

 They even both have Bonus stages !

 So, the only major "gameplay" difference is the circular path.  Im kinda surprised that they were not sued by Namco over it.  I also wouldnt be surprised to see modified Galaga code in the game either.

 As for the rest.. Your right.  I apologize.  You have your right to an opinion.
Ill happily dispute its validity however.

I think Gyruss may have been originally designed with a spinner control in mind, but changed to not have *too* much in common with Tempest. Back then, close tabs were kept on the "other guys" in the industry. Konami prob'ly feared the Atari lawyers coming after them.....

 Highly doubtful, considering the Vast differences in gameplay, and that they are 2yrs apart.  Also, if they were worried about lawsuits, they would have much more feared Namco, as the game is a complete rip off of Galaga's gameplay engine.  Even with a spinner, its still Galaga... and nothing like Tempest.

Metal Slug, should have a Limited Continue system.  At very least, that would give people incentive to get good... to finally get to see the end.

 In defense, Its very different to say that Metal Slug is better suited being a lightgun game, and that the designers should have made that so... 
 
 Than to suggest a 'slight' difficulty adjustment.

 

[RandyT]

I think there is plenty of room for both.  By adding the spinner functionality, it literally makes a new game from the title, due entirely to the fact that it plays very differently.  I love me some Gyruss and Time Pilot, and do pretty well on both titles with the original control scheme.  But if one enjoys the games to begin with, another cool way to enjoy them is a no-brainer.

[CrazyKongFan]

Those Monroe sticks were pure evil. Finger pinchin' worthless crap design. Centuri was the only mfgr to use them AFAIK. We always swapped them out for Wicos.....

I believe Midway used them on Rampage. Anyway, I think they're perfect for Gyruss. They sure work smoother than playing it (via 48-in-1) on a Bally/Midway 8-way in my Gaplus cab.

[danny_galaga]

I loved playing "Age of Empires" until I discovered a cheat code that allowed me to create as many units as I wanted.  This totally killed the game for me.  I couldn't even go back to playing it normal; the fun was gone.

My original post was because I couldn't recall what type of controller Gyruss used (and I've seen mistakes on MAWS before).  I have no desire to hack or redesign an enjoyable game if those changes take away the challenge.

The idea of a spinner on games that originally used a joystick just gets me thinking IF the gameplay could be improved.

Weren't the cheats in Age of Empires a hoot though    The corvette with the laser cannon, and some kinda baby thing. I'll have to google them...

[leapinlew]

I consider myself as both types, but there are some games that I must play with as close to the original controls as possible. Robotron, defender, gyruss, pacman and burgertime to name a few.

I guess I can be both types too.... depending on the game. I built 2 cabinets specifically for 2 different games: Defender and Tempest. I definitely compromise on other games; such as using a street fighter layout for Mortal Kombat and Neo Geo games. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Im kinda surprised that they were not sued by Namco over it. 

Yeah, because actual direct bootlegging/copying of games didn't exist back then, so this would be the obvious legal course of action.

 

[Woodshop Flunky]

Weren't the cheats in Age of Empires a hoot though    The corvette with the laser cannon, and some kinda baby thing. I'll have to google them...

I did like them for a while, but then I couldn't play it straight again!

[leapinlew]

Weren't the cheats in Age of Empires a hoot though    The corvette with the laser cannon, and some kinda baby thing. I'll have to google them...

I did like them for a while, but then I couldn't play it straight again!

I screwed up Karate Champ by using savestates. I can't play it vs the computer anymore.

[Gray_Area]

This must be some kind of MAME hack, 'cause you couldn't do that with the actual hardware.....

Actually, as you can burn roms from rom files, I think you can do this.

[CrazyKongFan]

This must be some kind of MAME hack, 'cause you couldn't do that with the actual hardware.....

Actually, as you can burn roms from rom files, I think you can do this.

I guess it depends on whether it was a ROM hack, or a hardware hack in the driver in MAME.

[CheffoJeffo]

This must be some kind of MAME hack, 'cause you couldn't do that with the actual hardware.....

Actually, as you can burn roms from rom files, I think you can do this.

Except that there is no way to interface the spinner with the actual hardware.

[opt2not]

I guess it depends on whether it was a ROM hack, or a hardware hack in the driver in MAME.

It is a rom hack, but it interfaces with the Mame analog input drivers.

You cannot burn it to a rom and play it on actual hardware. This hack is for mame only.

[Gray_Area]

I'm waiting for MacGuyver to come with an Arkanoid board set, and hacked Gyruss roms.