Making a MAME Dual Gun Cabinet

[mike boss]

I was able to get a gutted Virtua Cop 2 cabinet this weekend.
I'm looking into possibly MAME'n it and loading it with all gun games.
I compiled a list on ROMLister, 117 games....so that aint soo bad!
This would the first time I've taken on a project like this.
Much of the info I found seemed to be outdated.

Can anyone suggest a particular build of MAME ?
Good guns to get ? Ones that will work with MAME ?

I understand some games have issues with shooting off screen to reload.

Any info would be great, thanks all.

[Donkbaca]

Get the latest version of MAME, MAME didn't add lightgun support until like MAME 132 or something like that, so it hasn't been around all that long.

As far as guns go, your choices are pretty much Aimtraks vs Act Labs.  Topguns are an option, but they are as expensive as aimtraks, if not more, harder to find, and aimtraks are superior in pretty much every way.  If you are using a CRT  act labs will work, if you are using an LCD, aimtraks are the only way to go

The most frustrating thing with lightgun games is that a lot of the good ones don't work well in MAME.  Virtua cop, house of the dead, time crisis.  None of these work.

You can get Virtua Cop and HoTD working in the M2 emulator.  But it doesn't support off screen reload, and it only supports one gun at a time.

[mike boss]

I was looking into the Act Labs products, and I saw that some "patch" existed to rectify issues with shooting off-screen.  I thought the games you mentioned HOTD, etc were working with the new products. Perhaps I have to go give it a second read. Right now I'm in the doing my homework stages.

I think I'd go with a CRT, a TV or 21" PC monitor if needed. I'm going to look into all the costs and figure out if its even worth doing the project.

I was told to look into Happ guns. Anyone have any input on them ?

[Donkbaca]

The happ guns don't work with MAME as far as I know.

Its not that the games don't work with the products, its that the gmaes don't work.

Like I said HOTD works in the model 2 emulator pretty well, but model 2 doesn't support 2 lightguns, and if you shoot of screen, the whole emulator minimizes.

[mike boss]

Oh.... ok I follow now.
I appreciate all the info. Like I said I'd like to do my homework now so that I know what I'm getting into.
The cabinet is 2 players, but if a game only works with one player I think I'd still add it.
I would compile a list of games via ROMlister and do a custom MaLa layout....that much I know.
It's getting it working, and working well that I'm concerned about.
I'd like it if the "good games" all worked well.
I was also looking into the idea of using other emulators. I know the Aim Track Act Labs worked with NES games from what I gather.

http://thetroubleshooter.home.mindspring.com/index.htm
http://thetroubleshooter.home.mindspring.com/games.htm
http://www.act-labs.com/gun_gamelisting.htm

[Donkbaca]

Yeah, I would get it all set up and then buy the guns as the last step.

Model 2 is the sega emulator, it will run HOTD, and virtua cop great.  But you have the one gun limitation, and you can't shoot off screen.

You might be able to use the play station emulator to run time crisis, I haven't messed with it though...

[mike boss]

One of the things I was considering was trying to see if in options (specific game options) I could disable 2 players.
That way a game like HOTD that did not support two players in MAME would not give the player an option to play............PERIOD! (lol)
I also like the idea of having several emulators on the system. I guess my "greed" when it comes to MAME and its 6000+ available games makes a machine
with a lil more than 100 seem, well sh*ty!

But by adding emulators for things like PS1, Nintendo, etc I would have duplicates I know, but as you pointed out some emulators will run some titles near flawless.

I thought this link was cool : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_light_gun_games

I also noticed with the "trouble shooter" patch that you can select "auto reload. I think that eliminates the need to shoot off screen.

[Donkbaca]

shooting off screen isn't an issue, you can map reload to one of your guns buttons.

HOTD does not run in MAME, it will run flawlessly in model 2 though.

[mike boss]

Thanks for the steer towards Model2. I'm going to do a lil more homework and start to gather the required files.
I think this could be cool...........if I can pull it off.

[BadMouth]

Another thing to consider is that the act labs guns won't work with games that had mounted guns, like Terminator 2 and Revolution X. 
There are ways to get them to work, but you can't hold in on the trigger and spray bullets the way you were meant to.

Because of the way they work (like true light guns of old), the computer only knows where the gun is pointed the instant the trigger is pulled.
If you hold in on the trigger and move the gun, it will just keep firing shots in the spot where you first pulled the trigger.  This doesn't work well for games that had mounted guns, but it's accurate down to a pixel.  They also don't have the offscreen reload issue in M2 emulator.  You must use a CRT TV with an S-video input or a CRT monitor.  Replacements might not be easy to come by down the road, if you still plan to be using them in 10 years.

The aim trak guns use ir emitters mounted around the screen and a sensor in the gun tracks them, so the computer always knows where the gun is pointed.
It will work just like a mouse and should work on any game a mouse will.  However, it isn't as accurate and you must stand back far enough that the camera in the gun doesn't lose sight of any of the sensors.  I've read posts by some people who weren't happy about the accuracy and how far back they have to stand and I've read other posts by people who absolutely love them.  I have no personal experiend with them.
Perhaps Donkbaca can comment on exactly how far away you need to stand.  If you don't have a problem leaving the crosshairs turned on in mame, the shot will always go where the crosshairs are.

I use an old set of act labs guns that I got fairly cheap (they look like ray-guns, not arcade guns  ).
I've been happy with them.  Being able to play a whole nutha genre of games is great.   
It would be nice to be able to play Gunblade NY on M2 emulator with them though.

It's a PITA to set up and will probably be a lot easier to use in the next version, but there are some pretty good Naomi & Atomiswave light gun games supported by Demul.  Limited to Player 1 on this emulator also though. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108239.0

Stay away from the repackaged (X-plosiv) versions of HOTD II & III.  They won't work well with front-ends and you can't turn off the crosshairs.

[Donkbaca]

I think you are confusing the aimtraks with the LCD topguns. I think most would agree they are as accurate or more accurate than the act guns, especially when calibrated. You don't have to stand very far back at all when using them either, unlike the topguns

The aimtraks do take more work to set up though, since you have to put the guns together.  If you are using a CRT I say it's a tossup between the two, if you are using a LCD aimtraks are your best options.

Thanks for the heads up on demul.

[BadMouth]

I think you are confusing the aimtraks with the LCD topguns. I think most would agree they are as accurate or more accurate than the act guns, especially when calibrated. You don't have to stand very far back at all when using them either, unlike the topguns

Thanks.  Fear of having to stand way back is what has kept me from trying them.
If my old ray guns or my crt tv dies, I'll definitely go with the aim-traks next time around.

[Donkbaca]

Yeah, the aimtraks are a big improvement on the top guns.  the top guns have 2 huge sensor bars that you need to mount on the top and the sides of the cabinet, the aimtraks have a small LED PCB that is only about 4 inches wide by about 1 inch tall and it mounts to the top of your screen.

Is getting Demul to work worth it in your opinion?

I also have no experience with the digital leisure games like mad dog mccree

[BadMouth]

Is getting Demul to work worth it in your opinion?

I also have no experience with the digital leisure games like mad dog mccree

Making Demul work was worth it for me.  It's only a few games, but they are pretty good.
HOTD III stutters a bit on my system (2.9Ghz Athlon X3, XP32)  It's playable, but not the best experience.
If you're using Hyperspin, you can get scripts already set up off the HS boards.
(I think they just use a long delay instead of waiting for a target number like I did)

The digital leisure games are super simple to set up, just copy the contents of the CD to a folder and point to the exe.
The only issue is that you have to use an autohotkey script to make them go fullscreen after launching.

There's also the option to convert them to work with Daphne SINGE if you want the scoring, etc to more closely resemble the original arcade games, but I found that it degrades the video quality too much.  If you start with the DVD version of Mad Dog, I think it comes out ok, but there's no solution for the other games.  I tried both and went back to running the digital leisure pc versions.

Whatever you do, make sure the Digital Leisure CDs you buy have XP compatible on the front of the jewel case.
If they don't, they are the old DOS version.  They will work, but the video quality is terrible.

I have all of them but Fast Draw Showdown. 

[Donkbaca]

So would you recommend getting the DVDs or the CDs?

I don't have Daphen on my cab, been thinking about adding it if I can get a good deal on the software.

[BadMouth]

So would you recommend getting the DVDs or the CDs?

I don't have Daphen on my cab, been thinking about adding it if I can get a good deal on the software.

I know the Mad Dog DVD works with Singe, but it's the only one.  Mad Dog II didn't work last time I checked.
You'll be limited to the PC CD-ROMs for the rest of the shooting games.  I don't think they're even available on DVD.

I have Daphne installed, but haven't kept up with any changes, so I'm not sure if it's compatible with the new HD versions of the other games like Dragons Lair, Space Ace, etc.

[mike boss]

Thanks guys, all awesome info posted. I've got so much more of a knowledge base in the last 24 hours.
I like to try and prep as much as I can.
I'm familiar with the "ray gun" Act-Labs, I agree they dont quite deliver in the looks department.
But from what I read they work well and they were priced well.
I'm in Toronto (Canada), and Act Labs is in BC - I'm looking @ $200 + %13 tax + shipping for a pair of guns! OUCH!
Seems like quite a bit , mind you they seem to have little competition.

I'm going to start by cleaning the cabinet (I'll post some pics later) and then working on a PC.
Trying to get a used P4 that would do the trick.
The one thing I have settled on is a MaLa based front end with multiple emulators and (providing I have the space) complete light gun ROM sets for the individual consoles.

Every console seemed to have one or two token shooters, so I think this will give the cabinet such depth.

I'm looking forward to this.

Any other info, suggestions, game recommendations, even emulator recommendations please post.

[Donkbaca]

Did the cabinet you bought come with the guns?  If so you can use those shells and install aimtraks in them and have a complete solution for less than 100 bucks

[mike boss]

Opinion question - would it be worth looking into finding PC specific versions of some of the more popular titles ? For example a HOTD ?

[mike boss]

Did the cabinet you bought come with the guns?  If so you can use those shells and install aimtraks in them and have a complete solution for less than 100 bucks

NOPE! I wish, but all the innards were gutted.

[Donkbaca]

Well if you decide to build some aimtraks, I'll help you out with what I did.  I got mine built using some generic guncon2 playstation guns.  I got them working and they even have vibration feedback and I did it for just under a hundred bucks for the pair.

From what I hear the pc versions of those games suck, but you can probably find them for like 5 bucks a piece, so they may be worth a shot.

[mike boss]

Sweet, thats awesome and thank you very much.
I'll get the pics up in a bit. The cab had all the inside gutted, as were the guns.
It does have the 1 and 2 player start button. I'm thinking I'll need to wire some admin buttons, like ENTER, ESCAPE, and CREDIT. I'll need to look over on KLOV, but I guess most games allowed you to shoot to select your options ?

I'd hate to have the games not function cause I screwed up and didn't add a button or two.

[Donkbaca]

Here is the tutorial i followed

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=101016.0

I got those guns from vpgames.com for like 8 bucks a piece.  You get the aimtraks from ultimarc.com

So you want to set it up so that there are only gun games?  That would be sweet.  The aimtraks let you set up 5 different butons on the gun.  I wonder if you could map credit and escape and such to them.  If that is the case, then you would be golden, you wouldn't even need to get an ipac or anything.  Aimtraks work just like mice, so you could navigate the front end with no problems at all.

[mike boss]

I'll read that now.
And to answer your question, "Yes" the cabinet will be %100 light gun games.
I'm thinking though that I will %100 need to wire the admin buttons. But the air trak could be a good option.
So much info to process.

These : http://www.vpgames.com/p-6290-ps2-psx-mini-light-gun-w-usb-port.aspx

[BadMouth]

If you're going to buy an interface for the admin/credit/start buttons, consider adding two service buttons behind the coin door or on top the cab.
Most games are going to have to be calibrated in the games service menu.
Although in theory you should only have to do it once,  I find myself going back into the service menu to recalibrate and tinker with stuff more when it comes to the gun games.

[mike boss]

I just did a DK JR project (which is %90 done..........I need to add t-molding (or order) and side art (which I have))
For that cabinet I used an inexpensive Japanese keyboard encoded and added three buttons to the bottom of the control panel.

It works out awesome, you use player one start to select the game, then the admin button for credits. I also wired an escape button which allows you to exit the game and MaLa when no game is played. The enter I didn't really need.

Here is the cabinet as is, I'll take some pics of it SLIGHTLY cleaned tomorrow.








I have to confess I was never really a fan of gun games growing up. This project has my really getting into them, but they were often NOT the recipient of my quarters growing up. This limited knowledge has my exploring many options, trying to figure out which configuration would work. I think as noted above that I will have to go into the games and make one off changes to certain titles, that I expect.

My issue comes more from a standpoint of when (if) I sell the cabinet. Can a user who simply wants to play the games and has no prior knowledge of MAME, etc just start playing ? As always I'd hide the PC behind the coin door, a keyboard and mouse would also be present.

The cabinet itself has player one and two start I guess really the only button I NEED/MUST have is credit ?
Gun games didn't use many buttons did they ? I cant see them using buttons, or many games having buttons on the side of the gun ? Isn't that more console type guns ?

I've seen a mod prior where the individual wired a switch up behind the coin reject button. That is looking like an option right now, or some white buttons on the front of the cabinet. But I think the idea of perhaps two switches (like test/service) behind coin door in connection with a switch behind the coin reject would do what I need it to do, while preserving the stock look of the cabinet.

This is what I was thinking :



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Donkbaca]

You have got me excited bro!

[mike boss]

Thanks to everyone for the tips, advice, pointers, etc.
I've still got a bit more homework to do before I start getting everything together.
I've got to read more about each gun and really let it sink in. I want the guns to be as universal as possible.
Will Aim Trak guns work with other emulators ?
Cost wise I think the guns from Ultimarc make the most sense.
I want to contact DHL to get an idea on the brokerage fees.
But if I can locally find suitable shells they would come in cheaper then the Act Labs guns.
The Act Lab guns have a ton of info online from people who have used them, and I know they would work with a NES emulator for example. I'd like the guns I get  to work with PS1 to Dreamcast emulators, to everything in between.

Layout wise I have settled on keeping the cabinet stock on the outside with a credit button either rigged to the coin return or in the form of a button inside the coin door. Not gunna put much money into the cabinet either, looking @ getting a 25" TV used on Kijiji.

Really the sticking point and most important thing is the guns. I think between the multiple emulators available most of the big titles will be playable on one of them. Looking forward to trying out M2.

[BadMouth]

Aim-traks will work with anything your mouse will work with...period.
Easy enough to test before buying.

Not sure of your location, but this place popped up in the U.S. recently selling already assembled aim-tracks in different shells.
www.arcadeguns.com
It's something else to look at.

[mike boss]

Oh wow, I'll check that out now.

I have an opinion question, I can get the following PC for $100 with 15" LCD (Which I would normally pay $40 for anyway........and need for my bartop jamma cabinet) - This suitable for my gun cab ?

Dell Dimension mini-towers:
 
- 3.0Ghz Intel Pentium 4.
- 80Gb HDD.
- 512Mb RAM.
- DVD Burner (DVD Burner!!).
- Ethernet Card.
- Plenty of USB Ports.
- XP Home Edition.
 
Units have keyboard and mouse.
 
Bundled with a 15" LCD Monitor !!!

[Donkbaca]

that will probably work, you might want to get a better video card for the M2 Emulator though, and maybe some more ram.

For comparison, I am running a p4, 3.0ghz, 1.5gb ram, an ATI radeon 9800 (which is an old crappy card)  And I can run most of the playable games.

The only thing I would change is to get a better graphics card, because mine doesn't support pixel shader 3, only PS2 and the latest M2 emulator just started with PS3 support.

Setting up the cab should be easy if you get aimtraks.  just set the cab up so you can do everything with mouse clicks, then just sub the aimtraks for the mouse.

[mike boss]

Cool, again I thank you for the input.
I just sent a message to the seller to see if they have any more PC's in stock.
(and if I can get a cash price.........no tax! it's 13% in Ontario)

If they have them I'll get one this week and start doing my install.
80 Gig is a good size hard drive, I'd suspect I can get most everything I need onto that HDD.
I was going to only move the ROM files I needed, but that would be too much work sifting thru them.

I  think what I will do is inquire with the seller if they have RAM available for the PC and a better videocard, see if they can assemble me a bundle perhaps.

[Donkbaca]

if not you can get a 1gb stick of ram on ebay for like 20 bucks and a video card for like another 20.

That's what I did.

But yeah that's a fair price for that rig considering he's throwing in the monitor.

[mike boss]

I'm still waiting on a response from the seller.
As soon as he/she responds I'll inquire about the video card + RAM.
Perhaps another few bucks and I'll have an optimal machine (for this use anyway).
I would suspect I can bang out the PC work in about a week.
That includes searching for the emulators and ROMs needed.

[mike boss]

For anyone interested here is where I stand.

I took a good look at this cabinet today and it's in decent shape.
The sides look bad due to the side art being removed, but once cleaned up they will rock.
From the front the cabinet is in really good shape. Nice plexi, nice marquee, pretty clean to be honest.

I've placed an add locally to get (I hope) some GunCon 2 controllers, and I'm trying to find some numbers for game resellers. Providing I can get them I'm going to go with Aim Trak guns. Dollars and cents it makes sense. Ultimarc makes good products and the general opinion is they will work with any game that will work ! So regardless of the emulator I'm covered.

Looking to get the PC as mentioned above and waiting on confirmation of upgrades from the seller.

Going with MaLa as the front end and a custom skin (which I create and sell for anyone looking for something custom). Set up for light gun only games and multiple emulators including NES, SNES, SEGA, M2, and MAME.

[Donkbaca]

http://www.vpgames.com/p-6290-ps2-psx-mini-light-gun-w-usb-port.aspx

these are the guncons in that tutorial

[mike boss]

Not much to report on this project.
The seller of the PC (local retailed who sells off lease units) hasn't respond to my questions.
He has another better/faster unit for $147, however I'm unsure if that is a bundle or just the PC itself.
If it's a bundle I'll spend the money as the upgrades are technically done on that unit.
It's a lil chilly here in Ajax, Ontario Canada so working outside isn't ideal.
But I did take some time to go outside and gut and clean the cabinet.
This thing was super clean inside, I was shocked.
I removed the front glass, marquee, and coin door. Otherwise it was pretty gutted.
The coin door I'll hit with a few coats of black semi gloss spray paint to give it a lil pop.
Otherwise I want to keep costs down, and I'm going to leave the sides as is.
I might just paint the damaged areas of the side with some acrylic craft paint and a brush.
I'm debating on side art, simple side art, just the "Virtua Cop 2" logo. But I'm unsure at this point.

I  tried for the first time today spraying down the cabinet with a mixture of vinegar and water. Letting it sit for a few moments then rubbing down the sides with baking soda and a scraper. Worked amazing! A cheap and easy fix  to a nasty mess of goo! Got it cleaned really well and pretty fast at that. My hands were cold so I didn't give the cab a good wipe down yet. I also went over the cab with a magic eraser which also worked wonders to remove some nasty film on the sides as well as a few scuffs.

As far as cleaning goes I want to go over the cabinet one more time for any adhesive areas I missed. Then perhaps give the cabinet a wipe down again with a baking soda mix. I'll finish up with another pass with the magic eraser then some clean warm water and laundry soap. As I said not going to do all that much cosmetically to the cabinet and cost is a factor.

I'll  give the buying some clean, fun, and well working. What he or she wants to do after is their choice.

Took a few cell phone pics to show.




** I didn't take a pic, but the black scuff marks on the left side of the cabinet came off easily with the magic eraser. **

[mike boss]

I do have a question with respects to setting up the cabinet.
The monitor in this unit was on the bottom of the cabinet facing up as it would be in a cocktail unit.
An angled mirror was placed along the top of the cabinet.

I'm leaning towards installing a 25" TV into this unit. And I'm looking to go with Aim Trak guns.
Can I/should I go with the same type of instillation the cabinet would have come stock from the manufacturer.

OR.......

Just build a shelf and sit the monitor on top of the shelf. That way like a standard arcade unit the monitor is directly in front of you when playing ?

EDIT : I sent an email to Andy @ Ultimarc. He said he sees no issue with using the monitor in connection with the mirror. So providing I can mount the monitor easily enuff that is what I'll try.

[mike boss]

A lil early but I started working on a skin for MaLa.
Very specific in design I used art from "House Of The Dead."

Any thoughts ?

I  tried to give it an orange and blue look, but it didn't look good.
I thought the color scheme would look good with the exterior of the cabinet.
I'll keep making modifications til I get it perfect.

[flashiv]

A lil early but I started working on a skin for MaLa.
Very specific in design I used art from "House Of The Dead."

Any thoughts ?

I  tried to give it an orange and blue look, but it didn't look good.
I thought the color scheme would look good with the exterior of the cabinet.
I'll keep making modifications til I get it perfect.

Very nice Artwork Mike