the state of mame

[abaraba]

The games DON'T sync to vblank, there are many many games which don't... Having worked in the industry I know the effect, I know what causes is, and there are plenty of developers reluctant to sync to vblank these days, especially on the PS3.

Ok, believe you, I suppose no one can make their game run at full speed anymore, how embarrassing. You know, there is a proper way to solve both choppiness and tearing in the same time, even with drastic and uneven slowdowns.

You come up with your own BS reasons about why things are done, just as X2 has attempted to do, despite being told, and having things clearly explained by me, one of the people who ACTUALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE DECISIONS.

It is about how and why things SHOULD be done, being involved only makes you responsible, not correct.

Which part of 'if you want change, create your own build' do you not understand?

I made the changes, I want them in mainstream MAME, do you mind?

If you plan on ripping out the control scheme which actually allows me to run and test 720 on a normal PC, which is what 99% of the devs own, I will oppose that change.

It's a spinner, you can test it with a MOUSE!

If you plan on adding excessive configuration options Aaron will almost certainly oppose / reject your change, he's expressed before he wants to keep command line switches etc. down to a minimum.

What the ...? I am talking about simple "MAP THE INPUT" thing. Press 'enter' over input control you want to re-map and then press desired key to map it to that key, or move a mouse to assign it to mouse axis (spinner/trackball), or move analog joystick to assign it to analog stick axis, or move 8-way arcade joystick wired via some adapter to whatever PC port to map that micro switch... and whatever else is there. -- Not only there is no need to remove any of those options, but DEFAULT mapping for 720 Degrees should be initialized to "spinner", that's where you DOCUMENT what kind of controls the game cabinet actually used.

As I've said, and will continue to say, the ability to hook up the original controller has nothing to do with the accuracy of the emulation.

Current MAME documents 720 as using 'analog stick', is that info accurate?

[abaraba]

...likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.

According to whom, according to what? Says where?

[saint]

...likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.

According to whom, according to what? Says where?

Well, as you seem to be objecting to, the people maintaining the code base. That is what you're objecting to, no?

[abaraba]

Well, as you seem to be objecting to, the people maintaining the code base. That is what you're objecting to, no?

I want to know where he draws those conclusions from.
He must have confused something, heard something wrong.


How about you, what do you think:
- preservation of a PCB is accurate even without reference to authentic controller?

[saint]

Well, as you seem to be objecting to, the people maintaining the code base. That is what you're objecting to, no?

I want to know where he draws those conclusions from.
He must have confused something, heard something wrong.


How about you, what do you think:
- preservation of a PCB is accurate even without reference to authentic controller?

I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.

Troll-be-gone.

[ark_ader]

.

[EwJ]

I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.

Troll-be-gone.

You're running your site wrong!  
YOU'RE not running it right to meet YOUR OWN objectives!  
Do it my way!
My way is right!
Can't you see??? Why can't anyone else see??? It's all wrong!!!!!!!!111!1111111    

Quit telling me how I can do it myself how I want it! (and providing me and everyone else with it 99% there)  You do it! You do it for me right now!!!    

The oceans are starting to boil!1!!!
Worms are eating through my brain!!!
Make it stop!!!
It'll happen to us all!!!
Unless you do it my way!!!            

Help me saint-Haze-MameDev, you're my only hope   

And I stubbed my toe yesterday!!!
And I got a booboo!!! and mommy wouldn't kiss it better!!!!  

It's not FAIR !!!    
I hate you!!!!        

WAH !!!111!!11!!!!!!1!!!!1!!!!!!!!11!!!1!!!111!!!1!!1111111!1111111111111!!!!!!!!!!                

stoopid dumm-Dumm pooPooo heds!

(and i'm the only one who knows how everything is supposed to be.)
(before anyone does anything, tell me first, and i'll tell you what direction to take your projects! the only way! the right way!  don;t you dare do your own projects your way!)

[Hoopz]

You left out R2.   

[EwJ]

You left out R2.   

heh - fix'd

[abaraba]

I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.

That's description of conflicting moral standards, not answer to my question.

Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?


It is not about what would you do, but whether you THINK preservation of game PCB can be considered accurate without reference to authentic controller?

Troll-be-gone.

Eat-my-shorts.

[saint]

That's description of conflicting moral standards, not answer to my question.

No, you're wrong.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

i swear this is even more painful than the whole USB vs LPT thread. It's like a train wreck... I just can't look away.

[Bootay]

I know....I can't stop reading. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.

That's description of conflicting moral standards, not answer to my question.

Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?


It is not about what would you do, but whether you THINK preservation of game PCB can be considered accurate without reference to authentic controller?

Troll-be-gone.

Eat-my-shorts.

This has to be the single best example of total and complete ignorance I have ever seen here that didn't involve somebody saying something bad about me.

 

This guy seems to be made up of the best (read: most totally ---smurfing--- off-his-rocker-arrogant-ignorant-yet-entertaining) parts of Genesim, tommy, tranq (in all of his incarnations), MichiganClassicArcade and DigitalDJ.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

Go read his blog. It's golden. I love his allegorical stories about physics simulations.

[Donkbaca]

I can't believe there are this many replies to this topic, but no response as to whether or not anyone has gotten 2 aimtracks to work with the M2 emulator ( a more relevant arcade controls topic)

Just sayin....

[Hoopz]

i swear this is even more painful than the whole USB vs LPT thread. It's like a train wreck... I just can't look away.

You read this one?   

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=91845.0

[Hoopz]

 

Everybody did the bum rush to read the LCD thread.

[CheffoJeffo]

Let's not forget abarabaraba's last incarnation as driven-to-lunacy-man:

How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal?

USB vs PS/2 vs COM vs LPT

Those were gems as well.

[yotsuya]

I just spent the past hour reading those two threads. Thanks a lot. 

[Gray_Area]

Kangaroo is a cute game. It was not by Atari, but by Sun Electronics.

[Paul Olson]

Let's not forget abarabaraba's last incarnation as driven-to-lunacy-man:

How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal?

USB vs PS/2 vs COM vs LPT

Those were gems as well.

You caught me. I wasted about 20 minutes reading the first one. Fortunately common sense prevailed this time and I stopped before wasting half the night in there.

[Paul Olson]

Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?

If you have done the work in changing the source code, why don't you release a diff here? Most of the people that want this functionality are on this forum. MAME doesn't support High Score saves either, but many of us compile our own versions using the Hi score diff released (and regularly updated) by a member here. The diff would probably be pretty easy to keep up to date with the MAME versions. I worked on the atarisys2 driver for a bit last night, and there have been major changes to MAME since the controls were changed in version .85u1. It compiles and shows DIAL in the tab menu, but it is not working. This is my first attempt at playing with the code, so I am sure there is a lot I am missing. Kinda fun playing with it though.

I am curious how many games actually have improper controls. The only other one I can think of right now is the Pole Position shifter, but you can just change the toggle settings for that one.

[abaraba]

If you have done the work in changing the source code, why don't you release a diff here?

For what version of MAME? Work was done long ago, by other people, I was only planning to adjust it for other versions, however... 

...when I tried to find out in what version spinner mapping stopped working I discovered it all seem to work just fine in any version I tried, you only need to start MAME with "-mouse" option so the spinner gets mapped to mouse axis, just like with all the other trackball/spinner games.

I worked on the atarisys2 driver for a bit last night, and there have been major changes to MAME since the controls were changed in version .85u1. It compiles and shows DIAL in the tab menu, but it is not working.

Are you using authentic controller? Is your mouse enabled? What is not working?

I just fired it up again in MAME 131, both spinners work fine, I mean calibration spinner works too.

Try plain MAME version, if you start the game with "mame 720 -mouse"  it should all be automatically mapped. 

[CheffoJeffo]

If you have done the work in changing the source code, why don't you release a diff here?

For what version of MAME? Work was done long ago, by other people, I was only planning to adjust it for other versions, however... 

...when I tried to find out in what version spinner mapping stopped working I discovered it all seem to work just fine in any version I tried, you only need to start MAME with "-mouse" option so the spinner gets mapped to mouse axis, just like with all the other trackball/spinner games.

Interesting ... I just had a look at the plans for the 720 controller to see if there was a reason for this particular change and couldn't see a reason why it wouldn't be handled as a spinner.

So, do I understand that it can be handled via "-mouse", so that any of the optical interfaces should work and no changes to MAME are required ?

[Paul Olson]

If I remember right, it was changed to simulate the feel of the original stick, which was spun around in a circle. A mouse doesn't give that feel.

The controller code was changed in .85u1, so you can dl the .85 source to see what it was originally. If newer versions work with a mouse, what doesn't work with a real controller?

It has been a while since I did a fresh MAME install, thanks for reminding me about enabling the mouse. I can't believe I didn't think of that...I didn't even -cc. If anyone has a 720 controller, please let me know if you can test it. I'll look at the plans tonight and try to figure out the difference. I think the original code was to save the direction you were facing since a spinner doesn't know position.  I'll try to figure something out tonight. What other games have issues with real controls?

[CheffoJeffo]

If I remember right, it was changed to simulate the feel of the original stick, which was spun around in a circle. A mouse doesn't give that feel.

That makes some sense.

[jerryjanis]

Interesting ... I just had a look at the plans for the 720 controller to see if there was a reason for this particular change and couldn't see a reason why it wouldn't be handled as a spinner.

So, do I understand that it can be handled via "-mouse", so that any of the optical interfaces should work and no changes to MAME are required ?

The 720 joystick is unusual.  It acts like a spinner but with additional hardware to keep track of exactly which direction the joystick is pointing in.  A second encoder disk is attached to the joystick for this purpose.  The second encoder disk only has two notches.  The game uses the second encoder disk to determine the direction that the joystick is pointing.





Using a mouse or a spinner lacks the directional aspect of the original joystick.  Personally, I think that the way the Mame handles it now (as an analog joystick) is an excellent  compromise between accuracy vs. usability, and is much better than using a regular spinner or a mouse.

[CheffoJeffo]

Thanks, I couldn't figure out what the "centering disk" was for. Interesting stuff and apparently more complex than I had considered after looking at the exploded view of the controller.

[Donkbaca]

Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"

[Hoopz]

Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"

Done.  Doesn't everyone realize that they can do that?

I'm guessing that sense jerryjanis has the 720 controller and has skate or die on his profile that he has played the game once or twice.  Any opinion he shares is definitely from experience on original equipment and, to me, is qualified to give an "expert" opinion.

That being said some asshat one is going to come along and tell him he's wrong.   

[Donkbaca]

I think he's wrong.  Everyone knows 720 was controlled with soviet grade micro-trolls

[Generic Eric]

Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"

They are going to port Mame to the XBOX 720?  What about game room?

[Hoopz]

Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"

They are going to port Mame to the XBOX 720?  What about game room?

GameRoom closed   

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=107381.0 

[Paul Olson]

Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"

I think it derailed in just the nick of time. It was going nowhere fast. with any luck, we have a work around soon so those that actually have one of these controllers can use it on their cabs. I think that number is really small right now, but there is a repro being made, so that may change in the future. I still can't think of any other controllers that don't work with MAME, so if anyone knows, please list them.

I think this thread had a good effect though. I have wanted to dig into the MAME code for a long time, but never have. Now my interest is renewed, and hopefully I can help a little with the development - both for cab related stuff (I am really interested in the work being done on outputs), and for MAME in general. There is so much information in the source. It is really an incredible documentation effort.

The point about the analog controls being a perfect compromise really reinforces what Haze was saying. People can test the game with a pretty good approximation of how the game is supposed to feel, and they can do it with normal PC controllers. To me, it is not a big deal to compile the changes for features that are not supported in MAME, but they do need to be available.

[jennifer]

    "Not a big deal?"  The OEM controls, say enduro racer, is run on pots. Not just one mind you but multiple, the support just isn"t there. This is considered
a HUGE deal..... so far as a drop in replacement goes.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

If it's just pots, then are there not several interfaces which will give you an analog axis on which to map mame controllers?

[Hoopz]

More detail on the 720 controller and Mame can be found in this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=97029.40

u-rebelscum had some interesting points to make about it.  So did a few other trolls.... 

[jennifer]

If it's just pots, then are there not several interfaces which will give you an analog axis on which to map mame controllers?

 
             Right you are..... what was I thinking?

[Derrick Renaud]

At the risk of getting dragged into the argument...

As Haze says, people are free to modify the MAME code as they see fit.  Just because someone wants MAME to fit their needs, does not mean it would meet the needs of the people doing the actual coding.  Demanding it meets your needs and not the needs of the coders is bizzare.  So to get back to Haze's original topic... If you want it done, recruit someone with interest to code something up cleanly that can be maintained in the baseline code.  No current Devs have any interest, and continually berating them is not getting you anywhere.

Read this thread, for my thoughts on adding shifter controls:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699

Or for further fun on where insults and ranting get you:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=231686&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=234593&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Unfortunately for some, I no longer have any interest in coding something I will never use.  Too much abuse, no pleasure.

People have to remember, MAMEdev are not going to maintain per games hacks, beyond the plenty that are already there that we are slowly working to remove.  So a maintainable system needs to be developed.  I believe a fake/real control system could be added similar to the system I mentioned for shifters.  But someone needs to be interested to do it.  I will repeat that NO CURRENT MAMEdev has any interest.  So let's see some good clean code from interested people.  (Yes that means learning the MAME UI, Input, Input Port and driver code.  As a hint, the easiest way would be to create a callback system in the input code, similar to the Input Port code.)

D.