Anyone made a auto 4way/8way switching joystick?

[ranma]

I thought about this today, to implement on my new cab. I figured it couldn't be too hard to do. From the software side, it's easy to execute a script before entering the game to check what should be the correct setting. From the hardware side I think it should be simple too, but would like to see what others think.

I didn't investigate much and I've been away from building anything hardware related for some time. Thoughts:

1. I was thinking a  standard servo should do OK to turn the 4way/8way plate 90°. And on the other hand, I see that using the joystick hardly produces any force upon the plate, even if it's loose (not locked by screws) it won't turn when used. So it shouldn't be a problem for any servo to keep the plate in place.

2. I need to find the way to use the servo with the computer easily. Maybe an IPAC with the led outputs and some electronics should do. I still have to investigate.


What do you think?, I'd like to hear ideas.

[Ginsu Victim]

For the cost of doing what you're thinking, why not just go with a U360?

[RandyT]

For the cost of doing what you're thinking, why not just go with a U360?

Because a U360 is not a true "physical restriction switching joystick" and that's why some folks are still plopping down restricted 4-ways next to them.  But a servo is mucho bucks, and there are easier (and cheaper) ways to flip restrictor plates into one of two positions.
 
I've thought about it, but not prototyped the idea yet, well at least not the "auto" part .

RandyT

[ranma]

hmm, I don't know exactly how that stick works. I see from the description that it has 2way, 4way, 8way, etc modes, but I don't get if this restricts the movements or just the input detection, as it also says it comes with restriction plates to physically restrict movements.

What I'm looking for is the true feeling of a 4way joystick on games that require it or where it's convenient (like Tetris The grand master 2). Can the U360 provide that? (without the physical restriction plates)

[ranma]

For the cost of doing what you're thinking, why not just go with a U360?

Because a U360 is not a true "physical restriction switching joystick" and that's why some folks are still plopping down restricted 4-ways next to them.  But a servo is mucho bucks, and there are easier (and cheaper) ways to flip restrictor plates into one of two positions.
 
I've thought about it, but not prototyped the idea yet, well at least not the "auto" part .

RandyT

Our messages crossed. That's what I though...

So, anything specific on the "easier (and cheaper) ways to flip restrictor plates into one of two positions"?  

As I said, although I'm an electronic engineer, I'm not very close to the hardware side of things any more.

[RandyT]

So, anything specific on the "easier (and cheaper) ways to flip restrictor plates into one of two positions"?  

As I said, although I'm an electronic engineer, I'm not very close to the hardware side of things any more.

Well, some hardware is going to be a necessity regardless, but think about geared motors / solenoids and limit switches.  The LED-Wiz will likely be able to drive just about any reasonable hardware approach that can twist the restrictor...a relay might be necessary though.  Existing software might even handle it as well.

RandyT

[Epyx]

Auto would be great. If the Mag stick were  a better 8-way, it's solution would be fine but for now I don't mind my Sanwa JLW and bottom rotating restrictor...it does a great 8 way and a great 4 way. All I do is open the coin door and reach up and rotate.  Really only for Robotron or Crazy Climber type games the rest of the time the left stick is perma 8 way and right is set to 4 way. 

[BadMouth]

I think it would be an awesome project.  For proof of concept if nothing else.

On the software end, the issue might be keeping track of which position it's already in and communicating that to the LEDwiz.

If you're using a motor to spin the plate one way or the other and it has stops in each direction, it probably wouldn't hurt anything for the motor to just pulse toward the direction that it's already in.  Kinda sloppy, but you really wouldn't have to do anything on the software side except for setting up the LEDwiz.
I wouldn't sell it to someone else, but I'd use it.

A small throw actuator would probably be the most reliable.   Mounted between the joysticks, it could rotate both restrictor plates.

  I have too many things started already.  I have more than one machinist friend and wouldn't mind getting in on this.

[BadMouth]

Hmmm.....wonder what the stroke is on this thing?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lego-Technic-Mindstorm-Electric-Linear-Actuator-9-VOLT-/400142027450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

There are always door locks actuators, but those things draw a lot of current.

[Xiaou2]

Robotron

 Robotron is Not a 4 way joystick game.   

 It uses two  8-way  Wico Balltop leaf-switch Joysticks.

[Ginsu Victim]

For the cost of doing what you're thinking, why not just go with a U360?

Because a U360 is not a true "physical restriction switching joystick" and that's why some folks are still plopping down restricted 4-ways next to them.

Yeah, though highly playable with the U360, I still want 4-way physical restriction, which is why I ordered one of your snazzy new 4-way sticks.

(Though it's mostly just to test out for a future 4-way vertical cab...)

[Turnarcades]

The mag-stick plus is switchable from above the panel using a fairly simple mech so maybe you can borrow from it's design to modify another stick?

[ranma]

So, anything specific on the "easier (and cheaper) ways to flip restrictor plates into one of two positions"?  

As I said, although I'm an electronic engineer, I'm not very close to the hardware side of things any more.

Well, some hardware is going to be a necessity regardless, but think about geared motors / solenoids and limit switches.  The LED-Wiz will likely be able to drive just about any reasonable hardware approach that can twist the restrictor...a relay might be necessary though.  Existing software might even handle it as well.

RandyT

Looking around and I found this (Linux) software I'd like to try http://sampo.kapsi.fi/ledcontrol/, it doesn't seem to have enough resolution to directly use to control a servo, but maybe it could do. If that's not the case, I guess you could control a 555 circuit to output two different signals for each of the required servo positions with a keyboard led, could use Scroll lock led on the on and off position for example.

As for the servo, I found some cheap ones for around 5USD, and since this doesn't require any high torque or anything, I think it might be worth the try.

[RandyT]

On the software end, the issue might be keeping track of which position it's already in and communicating that to the LEDwiz.

Actually, if it's wired right, with limit switches, you don't care what position it's in.  You just tell it to move to the desired position and it either needs to go there or it doesn't.

RandyT

[Epyx]

Robotron is Not a 4 way joystick game. 

@Xiaou2

Read my post before you slam on the reply button

If you read it again...you will note that I said I only ever have my right Sanwa JLW in 8 way mode for games LIKE Robotron or Crazy Climber...meaning when I WANT it in 8 way

The rest of the time as per my text...I leave it in 4 way...

[mgb]

Auto would be great. If the Mag stick were  a better 8-way, it's solution would be fine but for now I don't mind my Sanwa JLW and bottom rotating restrictor...it does a great 8 way and a great 4 way. All I do is open the coin door and reach up and rotate.  Really only for Robotron or Crazy Climber type games the rest of the time the left stick is perma 8 way and right is set to 4 way.  

Hey Epyx,
 Thats the same thing I'm doing with my new control panel. I don't want 3 joysticks so instead I'm using 2 JLW (Great sticks) and just keeping the player 2 one set for 4-way.
I'm pretty much the only one using the game anyway so it works

[Epyx]

Hey Epyx,
 Thats the same thing I'm doing with my new control panel. I don't want 3 joysticks so instead I'm using 2 JLW (Great sticks) and just keeping the player 2 one set for 4-way.
I'm pretty much the only one using the game anyway so it works

Agreed, they are great sticks...my favourite, and I have tried a lot. I also like the configuration (player 2 in 4 way)...easy enough to change it for the odd game that requires 2 8 ways (fighters which I don't play a lot anyways or of course the ones I  mentioned already!).

[ranma]

For anyone interested I just finished a prototype for my idea with servos and works very well, I'm very happy with the result.

From the software side I used either xset command or ledcontrol on Linux, both work good to turn on and off the scroll lock key. That I use it to drive a relay via a transistor, so that it consumes 5mA. The relay switches between two different resistance paths for the 555 circuit to send the different pulse sizes, which correspond to two different servo positions and thus, the 4/8way positions on the joystick.

It really works very well, and I like the servo corrects the position if it moves for any reason. I'll have to test it further and put it into stress now.

[Bender]

^^  show us, show us!!!

[ranma]

^^  show us, show us!!!

Ok, just remember it's a quick prototype... 

[jimmy2x2x]

Very nice!

[opt2not]

   That looks promising!
I hope it passes the stress-test.   

[bkenobi]

That's much simpler than I thought you were going to build.  Simplicity is good!

[RandyT]

Ok, just remember it's a quick prototype...  

Very nice!  When you wrote servo, all I could envision was those big servo motors on one of my vinyl cutters

I see that these gizmos are pretty common out there for RC / robotics apps and even come with a handful of actuators to play with.  I have a nice switchable stick build that might get one of these bolted on to see how well it can handle it.  I'm a little concerned about the torque and longevity, but it's definitely worth a try (now that I understand what these are)  There's also the "what if" scenario of something getting stuck.  They don't give up until they are in position, and I'm not sure what happens if they are physically prevented from getting there for a length of time.  Maybe that's what the gear rebuild kits are for .

[severdhed]

wow, that's awesome

[jimmy2x2x]

Ok, just remember it's a quick prototype...  

Very nice!  When you wrote servo, all I could envision was those big servo motors on one of my vinyl cutters

I see that these gizmos are pretty common out there for RC / robotics apps and even come with a handful of actuators to play with.  I have a nice switchable stick build that might get one of these bolted on to see how well it can handle it.  I'm a little concerned about the torque and longevity, but it's definitely worth a try (now that I understand what these are)  There's also the "what if" scenario of something getting stuck.  They don't give up until they are in position, and I'm not sure what happens if they are physically prevented from getting there for a length of time.  Maybe that's what the gear rebuild kits are for .

Couldn't it be made into an enclosed unit, with some kind of cap - maybe with screw terminals on the outside for the microswitch connectors?

[ranma]

I see that these gizmos are pretty common out there for RC / robotics apps and even come with a handful of actuators to play with.  I have a nice switchable stick build that might get one of these bolted on to see how well it can handle it.  I'm a little concerned about the torque and longevity, but it's definitely worth a try (now that I understand what these are)  There's also the "what if" scenario of something getting stuck.  They don't give up until they are in position, and I'm not sure what happens if they are physically prevented from getting there for a length of time.  Maybe that's what the gear rebuild kits are for .

That's actually the same concern I have, and I'm not sure what's the response. The good thing is that you really cannot force the plate to turn (and thus, do any force to the servo) using the joystick, the only way to block it is to keep it with force into a corner of the plate while the servo tries to turn the plate. In any case, this kind of servo costs 7USD on my country, and I think the price is half that or so in the US, not much to worry about.

If you work something similar, please let us know your experience.

An upgrade I made to the circuit is I took the relay out and used the transistor "switch" to enable directly the second resistance path for the alternate position.

Now I have to check if ledcontrol can have the resolution needed to drive the servo (signal) in itself with no electronics involved in the middle, that would be great, but I would need microseconds resolution and I'm not sure if that's possible, even changing the code.

Thanks all for the feedback. 

[mmb]

Other than using metal gear RC servos to prevent the gears from stripping out under too much load or use, that looks like a great idea.

[bkenobi]

I guess I'm a little confused why you need complicated software to control this.  Seems like you could just set the position to 4- or 8- way and leave the signal on.  I'm thinking the limit switch would then turn off the servo for you, kinda like those "useless toys" that are on youtube.

[Bender]

That's awesome!

I bet you could do 4way diagonal (Q*bert) too?

[RandyT]

That's awesome!

I bet you could do 4way diagonal (Q*bert) too?

A squarish restrictor in 8-way pretty much already is

[ranma]

I guess I'm a little confused why you need complicated software to control this.  Seems like you could just set the position to 4- or 8- way and leave the signal on.  I'm thinking the limit switch would then turn off the servo for you, kinda like those "useless toys" that are on youtube.

A servo doesn't rotate continuously when you apply a signal (although they could be modified to do so), they go to a predetermined position according to the input signal. The good thing about a servo is that it's very precise, even with cheap ones, and on the other hand, it will correct it's position as long as you apply an input signal. This means that if any external force makes them move, they will go back to the same predetermined position.

As for the software, it's not complicated at all, I use the scroll lock connector of the keyboard encoder to send a signal to my circuit, led off is 8way position for the servo and led on is 4way position. And some additional scripting to check what the game needs before launching the game.

[Epyx]

What about a 2-way system via a pull?  That way you could use a loose restrictor and 4 way and 8 way both pull as opposed to any push action. You could then spring load them so that if the restrictor were to get stuck the spring would activate and prevent any damage.

[RandyT]

You could then spring load them so that if the restrictor were to get stuck the spring would activate and prevent any damage.

If you look up something called a "servo saver" you'll see that they already make something like that for servos.  A spring loaded switching system with solenoid would be ok too, but also be a little  complicated.  The best approach would be something along the lines of the way a pinball flipper works.  Full power at first activation, and then half power to hold it in place, so it doesn't cook the solenoid coil.  Probably need a dedicated power supply as well.  You can get more torque out of a geared motor with lower power requirements.

If you mean a pull attached to a servo, it would make more sense to just use the servo to move the restrictor to both positions.

RandyT

[BadMouth]

Pretty cool!

That's it, I'm ordering a cheap door lock actuator so I can tinker too  

[mgb]

I guess I'm a little confused why you need complicated software to control this.  Seems like you could just set the position to 4- or 8- way and leave the signal on.  I'm thinking the limit switch would then turn off the servo for you, kinda like those "useless toys" that are on youtube.

I think the idea is to work out a way for it to be autoswitched depending on the game rather than hitting a switch or something

[bkenobi]

Of course!  I just posted the video since it's a very simple example of a very similar task.  I didn't realize he had wired it up so that a single signal (led on/off) could change positions.  That's easier than two position "on" switches.

Looks great though!  Hopefully it will survive some testing so a similar concept can hit the market (AFFORDABLY) at some point!

[highlander4]

Will this work to controll those type of servos?

Electronic Toggle Switch
[E002] $6.00
 

Click to enlarge 
Electronic Toggle Switch kit can be used for switching On/Off application of home appliances like fan, light etc.


Supply input 12 VDC   
Onboard ON/OFF switch
Relay output SPDT relay
Relay specification 5 A @ 250 VAC
Relay state LED indicator
Power-On LED indicator
Screw terminal connector for easy relay output connection
Terminal pins for supply input connection
Four mounting holes of 3.2 mm each
PCB dimensions 46 mm x 58 mm
 

[danny_galaga]

I thought about this today, to implement on my new cab. I figured it couldn't be too hard to do. From the software side, it's easy to execute a script before entering the game to check what should be the correct setting. From the hardware side I think it should be simple too, but would like to see what others think.

I didn't investigate much and I've been away from building anything hardware related for some time. Thoughts:

1. I was thinking a  standard servo should do OK to turn the 4way/8way plate 90°. And on the other hand, I see that using the joystick hardly produces any force upon the plate, even if it's loose (not locked by screws) it won't turn when used. So it shouldn't be a problem for any servo to keep the plate in place.

I had thought about this for my sanwas on my cocktail. Since the monitor rotates, I thought it would be awesome if the restricotr plate rotates too. Never did do it. If I did, it was just going to be a toggle since I'm a tard with the software side of things. Instead, if I ever feel strongly, i'll retrofit with those sticks that have the little toggle to move the restrictor. I can never remember the name of them...

Edit: Omnistick Prodigy. That's it! from Randy T  

Edit: A radio control type servo that can do this job wont draw very much current, or cost much. Should be able to get them for under ten bucks each nowadays...

Edit edit:

maybe I should read the whole thread next time 

^^  show us, show us!!!

Ok, just remember it's a quick prototype... 

[BadMouth]

Just tried this with a door lock actuator.  Travel was a bit short, but could have overcome by moving the pivot point closter to the center of the restrictor plate.
The big reason for the fail was that the actuator drifted back toward center after moving positions.  It would work if power was constantly applied, but that would burn the motor up in no time.  Cheap servos or expensive industrial actuators seem the way to go.

Keep this thread alive, I want to see this work!