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Author Topic: how is the economy effecting you?  (Read 23259 times)

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daywane

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how is the economy effecting you?
« on: August 07, 2010, 01:07:03 pm »
I like to ask this from time to time.
I will start 1st.
Not to bad. I have made more this year so far than last. I just hit 30k.
I think I made 28 or 29 k last year (bad year)
been working 50 to 60 hrs a week all year except the last 3 weeks.  40 hrs the last 3 weeks. enjoyed the free time.
got some jobs done around the house.
Plumbing problem fixed, re did my daughters bed room. (painted, carpeted, new outlets)
This year I have spent funds on stocking up for projects till I got time to do them.
worked out very well
10 hr days start back Monday.

school dress code kicking my butt. (daughter just started high school) (last child to put through school)  :applaud:
I just bought her a new word robe for school. Pants are not exceptable!!!
No holes allowed! There is no holes in my daughters pants! There made with snags in them. no skin is showing. This school has the children line up. Arms over there heads and turn 3 times 20 kids were sent to the office and parents called.
Off to Wal mart we go. We could not find a pair of jeans that would pass! I guess dress pants will be next.

Pains me to think of the parents out of work with this strict of a dress code. I have a good will store in town and I have been watching the parking lot. Very busy.

danny_galaga

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 07:23:34 pm »

US economy is having an interesting effect with me. I've been selling modded Jaguar controllers. All to the US. Always $99 US. But our dollar has been rising against the US from the time I started. So what I've actually made in Australian dollars has graduated from $118 for the first one to $108 for the latest one. Of course the flip side is BUYING stuff from the US has become cheaper for me. And since I'm still buying more stuff than I'm making, the net result is to my advantage (",)


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 07:46:00 pm »
The school dress code is a good thing, especially at that age. The only problem is when clothing becomes standardized, they want 200 dollar bookbags to stand out.  ;)

I feel fortunate that my job has been stable so far. No outsourcing as I need to physically be here to do it.
There is something to be said for a craft job. The college buddies that dreaded being tagged as "Blue Collar" have job hopped, had to move around for promotions or aren't working at all.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 08:14:00 pm »
We had layoffs for a few 20 months ago.  The rest took a 10/15% pay cut.

We get half that pay cut back in a bonus check assuming business is doing well.  We've gotten it probably 1/2 - 2/3 of the time.

Could be worse.  Though I'd still like my 10% back.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2010, 08:24:15 pm »
I think that the whole thing is exaggerated.  It was an election year and the press started saying how bad it is, how horrible it is, how people are starving to death because they cant buy bread.  Then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  Am I wrong?

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 04:37:01 am »
I think that the whole thing is exaggerated.  It was an election year and the press started saying how bad it is, how horrible it is, how people are starving to death because they cant buy bread.  Then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. 9.5 % unemployment is pretty dire for an economy...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 05:07:09 am »
Th UK economy like all global economies took a real kicking in the last 12 months, but there are signs of improvement. Unemployment fell in the West Midlands fell by 6.6% in July. The problem we face is that although employment figures are generally heading in the right direction month on month, the levels of pay in some sectors have spiraled downwards.

I start my new job in the middle of next month and it will be the highest paying salary I have ever had. Whilst that's great, it's worth considering that until I start that job, my current salary is still lower than when I was 20, 17 years ago. Generally I have watched my salary take nose dive after nose dive year on year as the employment figures in my sector have continued to grow, forcing down salaries.

I took the decision to re-train/re-skill about 5 years ago. Whilst still basically working in IT, I gambled that moving into IT Service Management as opposed to being technical would buck the trend in declining salaries. My new job has finally made that decision to re-skill pay off.
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Silas (son of Silas)

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 05:23:09 am »
school dress code kicking my butt.

My 14 year old daughter goes to an independent girls school and I nearly choked the first time I got the bill for her uniform. Her full annual kit list set me back just over £600 (approx. $960 USD). Below is a cut and paste of her eye wateringly expensive uniform list:

Quote
Compulsory Items:
Regulation school blazer
Regulation maroon fleece scarf
Regulation navy skirt (NB: when purchasing the skirt please ensure that it is no shorter than 3cm above the top of the knee)
Blue chambray blouse, long or short sleeved
Regulation maroon school ‘V’ necked jumper
Regulation Navy jumper
Regulation navy overall for science and art classes
PVC home economics apron and cookery basket
Regulation black shoes must be worn with school uniform (see shoe lists)
Regulation navy school bag – named with tape sewn on shoulder strap and
name label completed

Optional Items:
(These are optional, but no alternative may be worn)
Regulation fleece or duffle coat
Navy gloves
Hair ties, maroon, navy, black or the same shade of blue as the school blouse.
Uniform List Senior School June 2010
Hair fasteners must be small and discreet
Regulation navy “Mac in a Sac”

Senior School Games Kit:
Gymnastics, Trampoline and Dance
White trampoline shoes or clean white ankle socks to be kept in Games bag at all times

Swimming:
Regulation costume
Plain swimming cap in team colour
Regulation navy swimming bag with name tape sewn on the outside

Sports Kit:
Navy wrap-over skirt
Regulation maroon sports shirt
Regulation navy hockey socks
Regulation navy cycle style shorts
Navy sweatshirt
Navy track suit
Leather or synthetic football boots used for occasional football lessons.
These must have plastic moulded studs. Metal studs are not allowed.
Training shoes
Black or white canvas plimsolls to be worn inside the gym only
White ankle socks for trampoline and summer games
A hand towel should be brought to school and kept in the games bag at all times
Regulation navy games bag - must be named with name tape sewn on the shoulder strap
Shoe or boot bag (any design / colour)

Additional Items:
Hockey stick (Autumn & Spring terms)
Tennis racquet (Summer term only)
Athletics spikes (optional – Summer only)
Shin pads (for hockey & football)
A mouthguard / gum shield is strongly recommended for football & hockey
Astro shoes (Autumn & Spring terms)

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daywane

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 06:28:39 am »
OUCH!  :banghead:
I would be venting for a week

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 06:36:03 am »
I think that the whole thing is exaggerated.  It was an election year and the press started saying how bad it is, how horrible it is, how people are starving to death because they cant buy bread.  Then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  Am I wrong?

I think there is definitely something to what you are saying. There is a cluster of restaurants near me, and through this whole thing there have been lines outside of them every weekend night. If people are waiting an hour to get into Red Lobster or god-awful TGI Fridays, can things really be that bad?

Guess maybe because there were no unemployment benefits during the Great Depression, that time is always going to seem way worse.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 09:02:07 am »
I didn't say it wasnt bad right now, but if you tell businesses that this is a horrible economy over and over again, they will start cutting fat and stop hiring.  I dont think that news anchrs should get on the TV for hours at a time bragging about how bad the economy is, that is just going to make it worse.  It was one of the tools to get the democrats elected in 08, but when it started working and everything went down hill it got out of hand.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2010, 09:02:24 am »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2010, 09:13:56 am »
Luckily the Australian economy isn't going too bad.  The State I live in is a bit worse though and my boss is off on stress leave.  Good thing is that I'm getting paid to do his job, bad news is that I'm doing my job too and not getting paid for both.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2010, 09:16:03 am »
STRESS LEAVE?  Is that a real thing?!

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2010, 12:47:09 pm »
Well, my wife lost her job in the banking/lending sector in the spring and there have been no job openings in her specialty within 75 miles of our home in the last 6 months.

We're going to ride it out and see what happens in the next few years.  But yes, within certain sectors, the it is more than just a line on the nightly news.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2010, 04:36:57 pm »
Ah, the Germans have 10% of their total workforce being doctors, and so that economy is pretty stable, and thus they buy our cheese, tomatos and cucumbers, so no worries here in the Netherlands too. Except... some wacky things can happen with the new government being created right now. They have some strange plans that might affect stability.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2010, 06:17:58 pm »
Maybe his wife isn't the primary breadwinner ...  ::)
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2010, 08:38:19 pm »
maybe its easier to collect the unemployment check...

NOT POINTING FINGERS, I dont know you or your wife, but I have known a few people that had jobs lined up that "paid less than their unemployment" so they didn't want to take the job.  Someone mentioned earlier that they didnt have unemployment in the depression, but perhaps it is just making today's problem worse.

Sorry if it seemed like I was being accusatory...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 09:17:15 pm by WhereEaglesDare »

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2010, 09:07:43 pm »
Wow, what a bunch of judgment going in here... Picking up and moving isn't always that easy, particularly if you own a home.  Remind me to watch out when you guys are near a pile of rocks...
 
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2010, 09:58:21 pm »
And you haven't moved.... why?

Guess it's easier to sit and wait.

Well, we own a home on acreage that we can never sell for what it's actually worth, family in the area, kids in school, and while things are now tighter, she doesn't need to work.

maybe its easier to collect the unemployment check...

NOT POINTING FINGERS, I dont know you or your wife, but I have known a few people that had jobs lined up that "paid less than their unemployment" so they didn't want to take the job.  Someone mentioned earlier that they didnt have unemployment in the depression, but perhaps it is just making today's problem worse.

Sorry if it seemed like I was being accusatory...

Nice.  She left her position voluntarily so that the employees under her would be able to keep their jobs and insurance.  Sounds like you need to hang out with a better class of loser, Skippy.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2010, 05:59:17 am »
I didn't say it wasnt bad right now, but if you tell businesses that this is a horrible economy over and over again, they will start cutting fat and stop hiring.  I dont think that news anchrs should get on the TV for hours at a time bragging about how bad the economy is, that is just going to make it worse.  It was one of the tools to get the democrats elected in 08, but when it started working and everything went down hill it got out of hand.

I can see your point. But it is wrong. If things are going swimmingly, an employer deserves to go broke if they cut staff just because the TV told them to. If they are making money, they are making money. They need staff to do that. When they announce that there is 9.5% unemployment, I can believe that to be a fair indication that things aren't going brilliantly in that economy. Our unemployment rate is under 6% at the moment and THAT"S too high...


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javeryh

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2010, 06:40:24 pm »
I am still employed and thankful for it.  I took a 15% pay cut last year as did everyone else but this year they are paying it back in the form of a bonus provided you are still here in March 2011 when it actually gets paid out.  It sucks though because bonuses get taxed more.  My wife works part time (basically as much or as little as she wants).  The good thing is that earlier this year we finished paying off my Rav4 so we have no debt other than the mortgage.  I really hope things start picking up - even though I've been fairly busy at work I could use a little job security.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 07:00:01 pm by javeryh »

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2010, 11:15:33 pm »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

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i love mexican labor too my friend.  Why pay someone full price when you can get us for a case a beer?  I like this attitude of "get the illegals out!".  Now for most people when they hear illegal aliens they think mexicans and nothing else.  In my opinion the USA need us here, its a necissary evil.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 04:46:20 am »
In California

Fees and registration at UC schools (University of California public schools, includes UCLA, UC Berkeley, and my school) have gone up up up!

My pay as a Teaching Assistant and now a Graduate Student Researcher has not gone up, but they cover tuition and give you some $$ at the end.. not so bad.  Unfortunately family student housing has been going up by $100 each year for the last few years (our pay doesn't go up to match).  Two years ago the rent was ~ $1200 now it's ~1400 (and 5 years ago it was ~ 900).  Rent in the surrounding city has not gone up by this much and living off campus is actually a bit more appealing.

We ha 2 bedrooms and are renting one for $500 so we are ok financially but we are feeling very cramped. My wife's Dad lost a bunch of work so we're helping out her family (my wife works full time at a biotech).. so yeah.  It sucks. Can't complain overall, but we should be saving for a wedding (we were hoping to have a Catholic wedding and already had a civil + small reception).

not happening anytime soon..

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2010, 07:52:28 am »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

Happy days.
i love mexican labor too my friend.  Why pay someone full price when you can get us for a case a beer?  I like this attitude of "get the illegals out!".  Now for most people when they hear illegal aliens they think mexicans and nothing else.  In my opinion the USA need us here, its a necissary evil.

Okay here I go, off the deep end....

If there was no minimum wage then employers could play legal workers what they thought they were worth.  With Minimum wage at 7.25 they have to sit and think, is that guy WORTH my 7.25 an hour....  Plus all minimum wage increases do is create a false sense of a pay raise, when it goes up, so do the costs of most products because the people making, ordering, selling, shipping these products also may get a "pay raise" which in turn increases the cost of the labor across the board. 

If the government wasnt making employers pay a minimum wage at a point of a gun, then labor would be cheaper for legal citizens and workers and the cost of most products would go down.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 09:33:55 am »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

Happy days.
i love mexican labor too my friend.  Why pay someone full price when you can get us for a case a beer?  I like this attitude of "get the illegals out!".  Now for most people when they hear illegal aliens they think mexicans and nothing else.  In my opinion the USA need us here, its a necissary evil.

Okay here I go, off the deep end....

If there was no minimum wage then employers could play legal workers what they thought they were worth.  With Minimum wage at 7.25 they have to sit and think, is that guy WORTH my 7.25 an hour....  Plus all minimum wage increases do is create a false sense of a pay raise, when it goes up, so do the costs of most products because the people making, ordering, selling, shipping these products also may get a "pay raise" which in turn increases the cost of the labor across the board. 

If the government wasnt making employers pay a minimum wage at a point of a gun, then labor would be cheaper for legal citizens and workers and the cost of most products would go down.

No, if employers could pay whatever they wanted, most of us would be 'serfs' living from day to day. Cost of living would be way out of reach of most people. The difference employers save in not paying you so much won't go to services and products being cheaper. It will mostly go to their pockets  ;)

there's a book called 'Going Postal' By Mark Ames. I recommend it. Part of the book goes to explaining why the average worker in the US is worse off now than in the 70's...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2010, 12:36:40 pm »
I just bought a house so I want to unload the condo.  There's a bunch of condos in my building that are going for 4 grand less than I owe on mine and they aren't even selling.  I'm going to talk to a lawyer this week to see if I should let the condo go into forecloser or try and negotiate a short sale with the bank.

It'll screw my credit rating, but I have a house, a car and credit cards so I figure by the time I need a good credit score again I'll have built it back up.

Again, I'm not sure how forclosers/short sales work especially when you can afford to pay your mortgage and you’re just choosing not to. If they can take the difference out of my paycheck or take the other house, I won’t do it.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2010, 12:52:57 pm »
They can most definitely hit you for the difference.  Your best bet would be to take the $4K loss and be done with it, no fouled up credit, no one coming after you for money.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2010, 01:12:11 pm »
In Illinois a house loan is like a car loan.  They should just take the car/house if you can’t make the payments. Since I can make the payments I might have some issues.

It might take a few months for them to actually foreclose so I need to know what bills I need to keep paying.  Because the utilities, tax and association fees are separate from the house. Plus I need to make sure my insurance is kept up to date.

That's why I need to talk to a lawyer to make sure I have all my ducks in a row.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2010, 01:21:05 pm »
Is finding a renter an option?

Might allow you to keep the place until the housing market gets better... 

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2010, 02:22:08 pm »
Is finding a renter an option?

Might allow you to keep the place until the housing market gets better... 

I bought the house for 200 grand less than what it's worth, not what it was worth before the housing collapse, but for what I can actually sell it for right now.

I thought about renting the condo, but between idiot renters destroying the place and not being able to cover the mortgage and the association fees with the rent it’s not a pleasant option.

I’ll be out 40 grand if I walk away from the condo, but I’m up 200 grand with the house.

If the lawyer says I’m screwed I’ll probably rent it until I can sell it clean.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2010, 02:54:23 pm »
I may have spoken to soon.

For 2 months my realtor has been telling me to talk to a lawyer about a short sale or foreclosure, because I wouldn't be able to sell my place for more than I owe on it. He’s the one who sold me the other house, and it was a great deal so I trust him. This weekend I decided it wouldn't hurt to talk to the lawyer.

To make sure I had all the facts about my complex I checked the listings again.  The two short sales that were driving down the prices are now gone. The lowest place for sale now is about 19 grand more than I owe on my place(10 grand less than what I’m currently at).

Hopefully those POSs are no longer on the market so future buyers won't be distracted and I might actually be able to unload this thing without destroying my credit and with an extra grand or two. 

I sent my realtor an email to ask him what's going on.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2010, 03:05:42 pm »
Until our government(US) follows Englands example, things are not going to get better, our spend happy government both Republicans & democrats are spending like its going out of style.  I do supply for the military I will never forget I had to process a order of 42" plasmas for prisoners at Git mo but our Va's cannot afford old 20" style TVs.  My job is very secure do to the government always spends no matter what but we did get our retirement yanked.  My wife owns her own Salon & she stays busy.  The Arcade business is way down not much profit there anyway.  Cinemark approached me to run 1 of there gamerooms so that's nice extra money.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2010, 03:40:12 pm »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

Happy days.

self centered

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2010, 04:54:39 pm »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

Happy days.

self centered
How is that self-centered?

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2010, 05:25:24 pm »
It is effecting me in a positive way.

There is a lot more cheap labor out there.

Why pay anyone $15 an hour when you can get people for $6.50.

Let's hope it stays this way for a while.   :applaud:

Happy days.

self centered
How is that self-centered?

He hopes the economy stays bad and the unemployment rate stays high so that he can save money on employment costs.  I can't say I blame the guy, but it is self-centered.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2010, 06:45:19 pm »
it might not be the politically correct respond that pleases everyone...
but the topic is how is the economy effecting "YOU"...
so, he is saying how it is affecting him, and how he wants things...

I still have a job, but no raise this year....
I have no debt, so my life style is not that much affected.
But budget is tighter, as salary stays the same, but spending on all directions goes up...

also, my stock portfolio is whacked hard... cos I hold the bad stocks...
although that has no immediate effect...
but it does hurt mentally, and my retirement savings are impacted....
well, you can say "luckily".... I still have time...
or from another point of view... I still have to work many many years....
dont really see the light at the end of the tunnel yet....
lol...
Another Brilliant mind ruined by education....  :p

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2010, 06:50:19 pm »
it might not be the politically correct respond that pleases everyone...
but the topic is how is the economy effecting "YOU"...
so, he is saying how it is affecting him, and how he wants things...

I still have a job, but no raise this year....
I have no debt, so my life style is not that much affected.
But budget is tighter, as salary stays the same, but spending on all directions goes up...

also, my stock portfolio is whacked hard... cos I hold the bad stocks...
although that has no immediate effect...
but it does hurt mentally, and my retirement savings are impacted....
well, you can say "luckily".... I still have time...
or from another point of view... I still have to work many many years....
dont really see the light at the end of the tunnel yet....
lol...


Is that a Haiku?

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2010, 08:19:53 pm »
The key to all of this is to stay liquid.  Most of you guys (Americans, which I am one too) have a real problem with staying within your means.  You guys need the big truck, big house and the big credit card, and the toys until the bottom falls out and you are left with some real scary debt.  I have no debt, excellent credit and own all my toys.  With the spare cash invested in commodities, I can make money by paying those around me less than they are worth.  Because I can do it.  Tradesmen, builders and even coders are all not exempt and have to bid on any work that I need to contract out.  I also pay 90 days.  I can do it,  as do many others.

I do hope it stays this way for a few years, as this will only teach those who live life as a dream.  Stock brokers and bankers alike are going to hurt, nothing will escape this black hole that is approaching.

Depression?  Heck no.  Not yet, but I do hear some high pitched screams in the distance, and it will only get louder when your false bottom dissipates to complete uncertainty.

I believe history likes to repeat itself, as most dumb consumers never learn. The ones ahead of the learning curve will be the ones who will be better off.

So while you have some time, pay off your debts, sell off your assets and get liquid as quick as you can.

 :soapbox:

Oh and while I'm on a roll, invest all your spare cash in gold & silver and buy a gun.  ;D
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2010, 09:23:03 pm »
Except "our" government will never allow the US to fall to that point.  We'll mortgage our great grandchildren into the poor house to keep everyone flush with cash and spending.

THAT's now the American Way! (TM)

The key to all of this is to stay liquid.  Most of you guys (Americans, which I am one too) have a real problem with staying within your means.  You guys need the big truck, big house and the big credit card, and the toys until the bottom falls out and you are left with some real scary debt.  I have no debt, excellent credit and own all my toys.  With the spare cash invested in commodities, I can make money by paying those around me less than they are worth.  Because I can do it.  Tradesmen, builders and even coders are all not exempt and have to bid on any work that I need to contract out.  I also pay 90 days.  I can do it,  as do many others.

I do hope it stays this way for a few years, as this will only teach those who live life as a dream.  Stock brokers and bankers alike are going to hurt, nothing will escape this black hole that is approaching.

Depression?  Heck no.  Not yet, but I do hear some high pitched screams in the distance, and it will only get louder when your false bottom dissipates to complete uncertainty.

I believe history likes to repeat itself, as most dumb consumers never learn. The ones ahead of the learning curve will be the ones who will be better off.

So while you have some time, pay off your debts, sell off your assets and get liquid as quick as you can.

 :soapbox:

Oh and while I'm on a roll, invest all your spare cash in gold & silver and buy a gun.  ;D

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2010, 11:42:59 pm »
Picking up and moving isnt always the answer and not really the easiest either. Moving to another city and leaving behind your home isnt a 1 day thought process and poof its done.

I have to drive almost 300 miles from Cincinnati, Ohio to Dearborn, Michigan to work each week. It was the only work Ford had for me at the time. In Cincy, I have my home, where the market is really depressed right now, and no sale of my home is imminent. Several homes in my neighborhood are up for sale and at 40% less than market value and no one is buying and not so much a look-see.

As for those that complain about those on unemployment benefits, does it make sense to drive 75 miles for a minimum wage job, just to eat any wages up with fuel cost, wear and tear on your vehicle? After you put the time in for driving and fuel cost, you may have enough left over to maybe but groceries but where is the rent going to come from? I know, work 2-3 jobs if need be, but 75 miles one way to work, then 75 miles back home, then maybe 20 miles to the next job, your killing yourself with miles and fuel. Cheaper to stay home!

Fordman

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2010, 04:16:28 am »
it might not be the politically correct respond that pleases everyone...
but the topic is how is the economy effecting "YOU"...
so, he is saying how it is affecting him, and how he wants things...

I still have a job, but no raise this year....
I have no debt, so my life style is not that much affected.
But budget is tighter, as salary stays the same, but spending on all directions goes up...

also, my stock portfolio is whacked hard... cos I hold the bad stocks...
although that has no immediate effect...
but it does hurt mentally, and my retirement savings are impacted....
well, you can say "luckily".... I still have time...
or from another point of view... I still have to work many many years....
dont really see the light at the end of the tunnel yet....
lol...


Is that a Haiku?

It's how he does  ;D


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2010, 04:17:30 am »
Sell all your hard assets like vehicles and land and invest in something with no intrinsic value? (gold) 

That's the worst financial advice I've read on these forums.


 :dizzy:



He suggests that because gold (but especially silver) is supposed to be set to increase dramatically in value in the coming years...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2010, 05:02:28 am »
Wow...
There's two guys here
who should take all their bragging money
and buy a soul.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2010, 10:29:59 am »

There are two guys here
who should take bragging money
and go buy a soul.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2010, 10:37:50 am »
The wife has been taking our assets out of stocks and bonds and buying rental real estate. We picked up three properties at the end of '08/start of '09. We're closing on another property tomorrow and we hope to get a couple more soon.

The wife has never, ever made a mistake choosing real estate, and we've both made plenty of mistakes in the stock market, so I trust her completely and I think this asset shift is the smart thing to do. We've got one kid in college and one going next year, so we'll need the cash flow.

Although real estate in Texas did go down over the past couple of years, it didn't go down nearly as bad as most states. So there are bargains to be had, but we still have to look carefully.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2010, 11:26:21 am »
He suggests that because gold (but especially silver) is supposed to be set to increase dramatically in value in the coming years...
Again??   It was under $900 usd just over a year ago. Now its around $1200.

NO MORE!!

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2010, 11:37:25 am »
When I started my current job I was enjoying 10-12% raises each and every year until the last two years when the raises have been right around 6%.  So I cant really complain too much but I would prefer to back around the 10-12% raise range  ;D.

My wife and I are currently selling our home as well.....all for the sake of a better school district.  We have a contingency contract on our house currently in which we stand to make about $4K after paying realtor fees.  So assuming we actually sell our house under this current contract we feel fortunate we get what we had in it with a small bit of padding.  We will be doing our part to stimulate the economy by building another larger, more expensive home.

Most of my wealth per se is in my home, I dont dabble in personal online trading because quite frankly I dont have the time to adquately study the markets and I dont know many people who really are making any money at it.  I contribute 10% of our income to retirement accounts, have an ample enough savings account to get us by for a short time in the case me or my wife loses our jobs (but in reality both are pretty secure) and we also fund a 529 plan for our daughters college tuition.

I also do my best to stimulate the local and online coin-op industry  :cheers:
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 11:42:01 am by Flake »

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2010, 02:13:24 pm »
I work in an industry that hasn't really been affected by the downturn and in a region that hasn't noticeably slowed down. My wife and I live well within our means and in the event that we both suddenly couldn't work, we've got enough socked away to meet our needs for a year or so.

A few of my friends went through periods of unemployment, though the duration was tied directly to their expectations. Those that realized work was work were back in a job within weeks; those that held out for an 'ideal position' went unemployed rather longer.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2010, 02:23:53 pm »
OK so you cannot buy gold & silver, but you want to make some cash without getting hurt, right?

The US economy is looking to double dip.  A good bet it's going to dive into the shallow part of the abyss.

Just like when you are in Vegas and you see a lucky fellow raking the cash in on the craps table you just ride his coat tails.  Much to some amusement and get out.

Eh?  Still with me?  OK.

Buy Sterling.  As the UK government is shoring their economy up, the exchange rates are following suit.  Now I know you guys are not Warren Buffet, but you can still make out when the USD->GBP bottoms out at 2.10.  It has to get to that to take commission into consideration.  How do I know that?  History always repeats itself.  Not much, but it is a nice gain especially at 100K.

Just watch out for Uncle Sam and the ATF.  ;D

What was Warren Buffet doing prior to the bubble bursting?
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2010, 03:34:54 pm »
With the spare cash invested in commodities, I can make money by paying those around me less than they are worth.  Because I can do it.  Tradesmen, builders and even coders are all not exempt and have to bid on any work that I need to contract out.  I also pay 90 days.  I can do it,  as do many others.

Charming. If it's in your nature to behave like a --cream-filled twinkie-- then so be it. But do you really need to brag about it?
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2010, 06:42:52 am »
He suggests that because gold (but especially silver) is supposed to be set to increase dramatically in value in the coming years...
Again??   It was under $900 usd just over a year ago. Now its around $1200.



Silver especially. Word is, we are just about done with what we can easily get out of the ground. But silver is used a lot in industry. Therefore the value is set to soar. Of course that's not necessarily going to happen. For instance, maybe there'll be some huge new discoveries of silver reserves. Or maybe some other more common material will be discovered to be a viable alternative...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2010, 09:47:13 am »
The depressing thing about all of this is that people are just going to get bailed out.  I save, spend responsibly and I have no debt other than my mortgage (which is pretty reasonable).  Everyone around me works less, spends more and just doesn't care.  I'll be the idiot paying full tuition for my kids to go to college while everyone else gets financial aid and BS scholarships.  A guy I know just walked away from his house.  It was underwater so he just moved and there will be barely any repercussions.  I get angry thinking about it.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2010, 12:01:08 pm »
Everyone around me works less, spends more and just doesn't care.

The problem now is that people who have jobs are working more, so more people are out of work and the people with money are spending less, so the money that is out there isn't being spread around.

The depressing thing about all of this is that people are just going to get bailed out.  I save, spend responsibly and I have no debt other than my mortgage (which is pretty reasonable). 

...

I get angry thinking about it.

You're just as guilty when it comes to being bailed out. 

You got your bail out when you bought your house at a good price and all the spending the government is doing to keep you employed.

Making/saving money is all about luck. 

You're lucky to have a job, you were lucky to buy a house at a good time.

Your friend and I are lucky that the economy is so in the toilet that laws are protecting us from our overpriced mortgages.



I might be able to sell my place and still make money, but if I can't I need to be behind 3 months before the bank will consider refinancing or allowing me to do a short sale.  My lawyer says it's better to stop paying now, because if I do have to do a short sale any money I pay the mortgage company now will just be lost.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2010, 12:11:14 pm »
You're just as guilty when it comes to being bailed out. 

You got your bail out when you bought your house at a good price and all the spending the government is doing to keep you employed.

Making/saving money is all about luck. 

You're lucky to have a job, you were lucky to buy a house at a good time.

That is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever heard and a complete abdication of personal responsibility.

I have the job that I do because I made that happen.

I bought my house and didn't end up underwater with my mortgage because I did the math.

I totally understand that the economy has had adverse effects and put people in unfortunate circumstances that they did not forsee and could not avoid, but that definitely doesn't mean that people who have been responsible and prepared and work hard are just lucky.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2010, 12:33:32 pm »
I completely agree with CheffoJeffo.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2010, 12:39:52 pm »
That's because, as saint says, I'm right.  >:D

FWIW, I have had my job yanked out from under me in the past, right when my wife was about to deliver twins and we were trying to close on a new house. I had expensive new responsibilities and had to secure a mortgage with no job and no income. I was fortunate to be able to make it work, but the only role luck played was in losing that job.

Chance, in either direction, favours the prepared.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2010, 01:39:02 pm »
BTW you can't just walk away from a house and rely on the foreclosure to wash your hands of it.  You owe the bank a certain amount of money.  If the bank forecloses and sells your condo for less than you owe them you still haven't fulfilled your end of the contract and you are liable for any deficiency.  Bankruptcy can erase the debt, but the trustee can come after your assets (including your house in most states).
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2010, 01:52:02 pm »
No, if employers could pay whatever they wanted, most of us would be 'serfs' living from day to day.

Not sure if I agree.  I'd like to think there'd be a magic number where labor and management meet in the middle.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2010, 01:53:30 pm »
No, if employers could pay whatever they wanted, most of us would be 'serfs' living from day to day.

Not sure if I agree.  I'd like to think there'd be a magic number where labor and management meet in the middle.

i don't think unions would exist if that were the case
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2010, 01:54:20 pm »
I'd like to think there'd be a magic number where labor and management meet in the middle.

I'd like to think that unicorns and Jesus are real.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2010, 01:58:02 pm »
I'd like to think there'd be a magic number where labor and management meet in the middle.

I'd like to think that unicorns and Jesus are real.

The number may not be what you like, and it may not truly be in the middle, but its a number.  Enough people walk away, the number goes up.  Too many people in the field, the number goes down.

Now, go catch me a unicorn.  Their horns are worth real money.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2010, 02:00:59 pm »
I'm probably naive, but look at the big picture.  Don't just worry about 'me.'

Everyone across the board in labor takes a 50% pay cut.  All of a sudden, people can't pay for things.  No one buys.  Prices come down.  People can afford things again.

On a big enough scale, works, no?  It hurts, but it works.

I realize I'm not taking into account the high rollers.  Where do they fit in?
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2010, 02:21:42 pm »
Quote
No, if employers could pay whatever they wanted, most of us would be 'serfs' living...

Read "Economics in one Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. It's from the 40s so it's completely devoid of any current political commentary.

Bear in mind too, a very small percentage of workers actually make minimum wage. It disproprtionally affects teens. Overall youth unemployment is currently at 25%, and a whopping 45% for black youths. Youth unemployment has been going down for years and has begun to rise since the increases in minimum wage since 2007. The market for labor works exactly like any other market; as costs go up, demand goes down. And as noted earlier, anyone who is not worth minimum wage to an employer simply won't get hired. [Stats taken from National Review, Aug 16th, 2010]

The same goes by the way for union wages; they guarantee anyone who isn't worth the required union wage won't be able to do that line of work.

I also have to add that I agree 100% with CheffoJeffo. Either you have the self-respect to make your own way in life or you should 'crouch down and lick the hands which feed you,' to quote Sam Adams. The whole 'woe is me' attitude is guaranteed to get you nowhere.

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« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 02:28:25 pm by Endaar »

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2010, 02:23:53 pm »
Labor is a supply and demand market like anything else. Unfortunately for the workers, the supply of workers is larger than the demand. There would be a magic number where the meet, but it'd be pretty low.

I'd like to think there'd be a magic number where labor and management meet in the middle.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2010, 04:54:08 pm »
If your job is making license plates.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2010, 07:21:48 pm »
Or teaching kindergarten.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2010, 09:53:23 am »
You're just as guilty when it comes to being bailed out. 

You got your bail out when you bought your house at a good price and all the spending the government is doing to keep you employed.

Making/saving money is all about luck. 

You're lucky to have a job, you were lucky to buy a house at a good time.

That is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever heard and a complete abdication of personal responsibility.

I have the job that I do because I made that happen.

I bought my house and didn't end up underwater with my mortgage because I did the math.

I totally understand that the economy has had adverse effects and put people in unfortunate circumstances that they did not forsee and could not avoid, but that definitely doesn't mean that people who have been responsible and prepared and work hard are just lucky.



Amen.  I studied ---my bottom--- off to get a good job that I work VERY hard at.  When the bank offered us a $1,000,000 loan when we were house shopping we bought a house for less than 1/2 that amount.  I've got no debt because I don't buy things I can't afford.  I know my limits and I am prepared for the future in case I do lose my job.  There's really no luck involved. 

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2010, 10:29:06 am »
Until you find yourself in a horrible accident,
or get some debilitating disease.
There's luck in everything.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2010, 10:55:16 am »
Until you find yourself in a horrible accident,
or get some debilitating disease.
There's luck in everything.
Even the super rich can only buy so many organs
before they have to take the dirt nap.


Well, yeah but that has nothing to do with the economy and how it is affecting me.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2010, 11:10:11 am »
And it certainly wouldn't make you lucky if you had previously purchased life or critical illness insurance ...
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2010, 11:23:44 am »
BTW you can't just walk away from a house and rely on the foreclosure to wash your hands of it.  You owe the bank a certain amount of money. 

BTW: A mortgage isn’t like a credit card or tuition loan. Leaving a house for the bank is like leaving a watch at the pawn shop, the bank gets to keep the house.  All you owe the bank is your house.

If you walk away from a home you're still responsible for the utilities, tax and association fees(if it's a condo or town house).

...and in Illinois after a condo is bought the new owner of the condo is responsible for any past due association fees.  Which is why you need to know what you're doing before you buy a foreclosed condo/townhouse. The lawyer told me many people buy condos and days after the closing the association puts a lean on the new owners for the last owner's association fees.

I still hope to sell for a profit, but I need to be 3 months behind if I want to make a deal with the bank for a short sale.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2010, 12:17:26 pm »
BTW you can't just walk away from a house and rely on the foreclosure to wash your hands of it.  You owe the bank a certain amount of money. 

BTW: A mortgage isn’t like a credit card or tuition loan. Leaving a house for the bank is like leaving a watch at the pawn shop, the bank gets to keep the house.  All you owe the bank is your house.

If you walk away from a home you're still responsible for the utilities, tax and association fees(if it's a condo or town house).
Yup, the collateral for your loan is the house, so if you can't pay the loan, then they take your house to settle your loan and you no longer owe the bank anything.  Of course once they re-sell the house, you will be responsible for paying the taxes on that sale, so you'll still owe the government money.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2010, 01:00:53 pm »
You're wrong.  If you borrow $400,000 from the bank you owe them $400,000 plus interest.  Your loan is secured by your house (or any other security you give them), but that is just to reduce the bank's risk so they'll give you the loan.  You owe them $400,000 period, because that's the amount of money they gave you.  If the Bank forecloses and only gets $200k for the house (so long as they weren't negligent in conducting the sale) you still owe the bank the difference between what the house brought and what you owe them.  Think about it . . . of course this is the way it works.  People get mortgages all the time for way more than the house is worth so they can buy furniture and appliances or put in a swimming pool or renovate.  What would stop you from just walking away with the extra couple hundred thousand and say, "Sorry bank . . . sell the house."

Now . . . banks may frequently ignore the deficiency since it will cost them more money to pursue and since you've already shown that you can't pay for the mortgage they'd likely not get anything, but that doesn't mean that taking your house settles the loan.  It doesn't.  You owe the deficiency and if the house sells for more than your mortgage the bank owes you any surplus.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2010, 01:07:36 pm »
Was just going to explain that but shmokes beat me to it. Same thing goes for an auto loan - a repo does not discharge the debt.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2010, 01:24:34 pm »
+1 to shmokes.  I can't believe people actually think otherwise.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2010, 01:27:22 pm »
You're wrong.  If you borrow $400,000 from the bank you owe them $400,000 plus interest.  Your loan is secured by your house (or any other security you give them), but that is just to reduce the bank's risk so they'll give you the loan.  You owe them $400,000 period, because that's the amount of money they gave you.  If the Bank forecloses and only gets $200k for the house (so long as they weren't negligent in conducting the sale) you still owe the bank the difference between what the house brought and what you owe them.  Think about it . . . of course this is the way it works.  People get mortgages all the time for way more than the house is worth so they can buy furniture and appliances or put in a swimming pool or renovate.  What would stop you from just walking away with the extra couple hundred thousand and say, "Sorry bank . . . sell the house."

Now . . . banks may frequently ignore the deficiency since it will cost them more money to pursue and since you've already shown that you can't pay for the mortgage they'd likely not get anything, but that doesn't mean that taking your house settles the loan.  It doesn't.  You owe the deficiency and if the house sells for more than your mortgage the bank owes you any surplus.
Strange, I guess it must be very frequent that they ignore the debt because I know a few people who have foreclosed (one foreclosed on three houses within one year (he was renting them before, not buying then foreclosing)) and all they had to worry about was the taxes.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2010, 01:54:33 pm »
Terms on mortgages vary.  There exist both "recourse" and "non-recourse" loans.  This applies to loans other than mortgages, but it seems rare to see anything but a mortgage of the "non-recourse" type.  Note that these types are general descriptions, and these terms are not always used in the loan documentation.  The loan documentation will spell out specific terms that people then lump into one of these categories based upon the practical implications of the terms.

Older first mortgages were often of the "non-recourse" type.  In this case, the bank's sole remedy for you failing to pay is that they can either hassle you until you do or take the collateral (the property backing the loan).  The "non-recourse" part says that once they've exhausted that option of taking the property, they have no further recourse.  They get the property, but they're done.

"Recourse" loans allow further recourse beyond seizing the collateral that backed the loan.  2nd (and 3rd, etc.) mortgages, auto/boat/aircraft loans, and personal loans are generally of this type.  These types of terms allow the lender to take further action above and beyond that specified in the loan to satisfy the debt.  These actions could include seizing additional property, garnishment of wages, etc.  A court would have to approve such actions, but it's not too hard to get a wage garnishment order if you can demonstrate an outstanding debt whose terms permit such actions.  Lots of newer 1st mortgages these days, especially "work out" mortgages that are issued when people call behind on an existing one, are also of the "recourse" type.  Most "subprime" and "non-traditional" (e.g. ARM, interest only, balloon payment etc.) 1st mortgages issued in the past were also of this type.

I don't have the figure to say which are more common.  I'd suspect that most of the defaults and resulting foreclosures these days are from newer loans as well as non-traditional loans, so they're likely to permit recourse beyond seizing the collateral.  I think that some states also place regulations that are inconsistent with other states upon mortgages.  For example, in some states, 1st mortgages with recourse terms may be prohibited while, in other states, non-recourse terms may not be allowed.


On a semi-related subject, if you ever settle a debt for less than the amount owed, make sure you pay it by some means where you have a duplicate of the payment (e.g. carbon copy of a cashier's check), and write the words "PAID IN FULL WITHOUT FURTHER RECOURSE" on the payment.  Once that payment is accepted, the lender can no longer come after you.  If you just have some side agreement, they can easily accept your payment then deny the agreement exists (leaving you to attempt to prove it does - good luck) leaving you on the hook for the rest of the debt.  I also recommend using USPS registered mail with restricted delivery and return receipt.  That makes it REALLY hard for them to deny they got the payment, and it can also bring "mail fraud" up if they do something really dumb like cash the check but not credit you.  It'll cost you like $20 to mail it, but it's worth it for the protection.  You can save a few bucks with certified and get almost the same protection against denial of receipt, but registered offers greater protection against loss of the check.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2010, 02:09:42 pm »
I've never bought a house, but I'm under the impression that a non-recourse loan is typically way overcollateralized where the property securing the debt is worth like twice as much as the loan.  There doesn't seem to be much business sense in handing out a non-recourse loan secured by property that is or likely will be worth significantly less than the amount owed.  I'm just going on gut here, but I'd be surprised to see many typical mortgages that were of the non-recourse variety.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2010, 02:11:32 pm »
I've never bought a house, but I'm under the impression that a non-recourse loan is typically way overcollateralized where the property securing the debt is worth like twice as much as the loan.  There doesn't seem to be much business sense in handing out a non-recourse loan secured by property that is or likely will be worth significantly less than the amount owed.  I'm just going on gut here, but I'd be surprised to see many typical mortgages that were of the non-recourse variety.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2010, 02:12:54 pm »
I've never bought a house, but I'm under the impression that a non-recourse loan is typically way overcollateralized where the property securing the debt is worth like twice as much as the loan.  There doesn't seem to be much business sense in handing out a non-recourse loan secured by property that is or likely will be worth significantly less than the amount owed.  I'm just going on gut here, but I'd be surprised to see many typical mortgages that were of the non-recourse variety.

You did notice the little economic blip we had recently, right?

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2010, 02:27:04 pm »
Quote
This applies to loans other than mortgages, but it seems rare to see anything but a mortgage of the "non-recourse" type.

I think you mean most mortgages these days are "recourse" loans, right?

Endaar

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2010, 02:51:24 pm »

You did notice the little economic blip we had recently, right?


Sure . . . but I don't see how that is necessarily related.  I know that banks were handing out loans to people who weren't remotely qualified, but I don't see why that automatically means they'd be handing out non-recourse loans.  I mean, maybe they were . . . but . . . were they?
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2010, 04:07:27 pm »
You did notice the little economic blip we had recently, right?

Blip?
What is a blip?

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2010, 04:34:32 pm »
Quote
This applies to loans other than mortgages, but it seems rare to see anything but a mortgage of the "non-recourse" type.

I think you mean most mortgages these days are "recourse" loans, right?

Endaar

No, I was saying that I've really only ever heard of mortgages being non-recourse loans.  It's very rare for other types of loans (auto, personal, etc.) to be non-recourse.  Many mortages ARE of the recourse type, but some are non-recourse, especially older ones where the down payment was large.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2010, 04:44:52 pm »

You did notice the little economic blip we had recently, right?


Sure . . . but I don't see how that is necessarily related.  I know that banks were handing out loans to people who weren't remotely qualified, but I don't see why that automatically means they'd be handing out non-recourse loans.  I mean, maybe they were . . . but . . . were they?

I was going off the "There doesn't seem to be much business sense" statement -- not sure there was much business sense being used for a while :)
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2010, 05:49:43 pm »
Maybe in neck/back injury law school there isn't any difference in a mortgage or a credit card loan.

I'm going by what the lawyer told me.  If the bank forecloses on me I'll owe nothing(on the mortgage). He said my credit would be shot and it’ll take a long time to get it back.  If I can work out a deal with them and do a short sale, my credit will be shot, but I'll be able to make a comeback sooner.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2010, 06:17:17 pm »
Maybe in neck/back injury law school there isn't any difference in a mortgage or a credit card loan.

I'm going by what the lawyer told me.  If the bank forecloses on me I'll owe nothing(on the mortgage). He said my credit would be shot and it’ll take a long time to get it back.  If I can work out a deal with them and do a short sale, my credit will be shot, but I'll be able to make a comeback sooner.

does a foreclosure go to court there? over here the court will look at your other assets and bank account and see youve chosen to stop paying as you're in negative equity but you can afford to pay, i don't think a judge would let you keep your assets and write off a debt to the bank when you display the ability to pay the debt.

i think you should ask another lawyer to be sure cos i doubt our banking systems are that different
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2010, 08:18:11 pm »
You're wrong.  If you borrow $400,000 from the bank you owe them $400,000 plus interest.  Your loan is secured by your house (or any other security you give them), but that is just to reduce the bank's risk so they'll give you the loan.  You owe them $400,000 period, because that's the amount of money they gave you.  If the Bank forecloses and only gets $200k for the house (so long as they weren't negligent in conducting the sale) you still owe the bank the difference between what the house brought and what you owe them.  Think about it . . . of course this is the way it works.  People get mortgages all the time for way more than the house is worth so they can buy furniture and appliances or put in a swimming pool or renovate.  What would stop you from just walking away with the extra couple hundred thousand and say, "Sorry bank . . . sell the house."

Now . . . banks may frequently ignore the deficiency since it will cost them more money to pursue and since you've already shown that you can't pay for the mortgage they'd likely not get anything, but that doesn't mean that taking your house settles the loan.  It doesn't.  You owe the deficiency and if the house sells for more than your mortgage the bank owes you any surplus.

And thus the sub prime crisis was born. The value of the defaulted mortgages is worth more than the value of the houses the banks suddenly have a bucketload of...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2010, 10:44:53 pm »
Quote
The value of the defaulted mortgages is worth more than the value of the houses the banks suddenly have a bucketload of...

True, but let's not forget something...IF someone bought a house they could afford, it wouldn't matter to them if it was upside-down. The value of the house doesn't impact your ability to pay since it doesn't change the payments - IF you took a conventional mortgage. It's no different than buying a new car; most new car buyers are upside-down on their loans the second they pull off the lot, but this doesn't lead to huge numbers of repos.

Yes, the lenders got VERY loose with credit, although there are some complicated political reasons that somewhat forced their hands in this area. But many buyers who are now in or at risk of default are there because they took an interest-only or other short term loan with the expectation they could either sell at a profit a few years down the road or refinance with a conventional mortgage at favorable terms because of the equity in the house. Without that equity, both options disappeared, and when a lot of these ARMS adjusted or principal started to be owed, the buyers couldn't afford the payments.

Maybe it makes me cold hearted, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who did so.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2010, 02:58:01 am »
Quote
The value of the defaulted mortgages is worth more than the value of the houses the banks suddenly have a bucketload of...

True, but let's not forget something...IF someone bought a house they could afford, it wouldn't matter to them if it was upside-down.

Very obviously. A simpler example is getting a loan for a car. The moment you buy it it's losing value, approximately 50%/5 years. That doesn't stop a person from continuing to pay for it. I was pointing out the problem the BANKS now have, not the problem the borrower has. Which was probably not worth pointing out, since everyone knows this. I was just being glib...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2010, 10:39:33 am »
Quote
Which was probably not worth pointing out, since everyone knows this. I was just being glib...

Sorry, I wasn't trying to jump on you. I just wanted to explicitly point out the buyers' role in this mess. I actually think a lot of people don't understand or don't want to acknowledge that it takes two to tango. It's easier just to blame the banks.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2010, 11:04:43 am »
Quote
Which was probably not worth pointing out, since everyone knows this. I was just being glib...

Sorry, I wasn't trying to jump on you. I just wanted to explicitly point out the buyers' role in this mess. I actually think a lot of people don't understand or don't want to acknowledge that it takes two to tango. It's easier just to blame the banks.

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The banks deserve a much bigger share of the blame from a societal perspective. When I make a bad financial decisions, I affect me (and my family).

When the bank makes bad financial decisions, they effect... well, the entire economy as we saw.

I have whatever financial skills I have gained and use those to the best of my ability. If I screw up, well that's as likely to be me just screwing up as it is deliberately doing something stupid.

The banks are supposed to be professionals at financial matters with expert skills and decisions making standards. When they screw that up, there's a higher level of responsibility than "oops my bad" imho. Banks making one or two mistakes is an "oops." Banks systematically making a series of unwise loans sufficient to cause an economic crisis is at best a demonstration that the decision makers were unqualified, and at worst a demonstration that their decisions were just short of criminal.

If I'm drunk, a competent bartender will cut me off. If I have a bad driving record, a competent judge will take away my license. If I'm a bad credit risk, a competent banker will.... give me a loan?

I don't believe the end-consumers deserve a pass by any means, we certainly live in a society of "I want it now and will pay for it later" but the banks deserve to be beaten with a much bigger stick.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2010, 11:50:46 am »
The 1.1 trillion dollars stimulus was a flop I was listening to Hanitty & he stated if the government had just split this money up to all Americans it would have come to $55,000.00 this would have been a far better stimulus than the joke we had
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2010, 12:35:46 pm »
The 1.1 trillion dollars stimulus was a flop I was listening to Hanitty & he stated if the government had just split this money up to all Americans it would have come to $55,000.00 this would have been a far better stimulus than the joke we had
dm

Don't believe everything anything much of what you hear from Hannity.

1.1 trillion, divided by 305 million (http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2008/12/31/us-population-2009-305-million-and-counting.html), works out to about $3600 per person. Near as I can tell from searching online, actual amount spent from the stimulus is $800 billion, making the per person amount roughly $2600 per person.

So, would we have been better off giving $2600 to each American? Dunno. Debate that if you will, but $2600 sure isn't as sensational as $55,000 per person. Factor in on top of that that much of the stimulus is expected to be repaid and not just given away. Now how much is left per American?

Whether or not the stimulus is effective, and if there are shennanigans going on in the repayments, and so forth are excellent and important topics of debate. They were good topics of debate when Bush put out the first stimulus as well. Depicting Obama as burning $55,000 per American is questionable, at best.

(Yes, it's a given that liberal spin jockies aren't immune from this either)

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2010, 12:51:11 pm »
Sorry Saint, I should have done the math,  some what Hannity says is good, but he is also full of it a lot of the time.  Doing supply for the military I see so much waste.  Year end is coming up for the goverment in september if the goverment departments do not spend there money then they loose the funds for the next fiscal year.  For example last year a military base in Alaska had a ton of money & told me just to ship them 5,000 4 prong dryer cords at 20.00 each we will never use them but that way we will not get our budget cut.  With waste like this how is the economy every going to recover.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2010, 05:00:19 pm »
Sorry Saint, I should have done the math,  some what Hannity says is good, but he is also full of it a lot of the time.  Doing supply for the military I see so much waste.  Year end is coming up for the goverment in september if the goverment departments do not spend there money then they loose the funds for the next fiscal year.  For example last year a military base in Alaska had a ton of money & told me just to ship them 5,000 4 prong dryer cords at 20.00 each we will never use them but that way we will not get our budget cut.  With waste like this how is the economy every going to recover.
dm

I won't not for a very long time.  The good time days are over.  The USA needs to look at new avenues of self sustainability like freeing ones self from gasoline consumption.  Using my analogy about cheap labor, to get products that are made in China, back into US factories.  Regulated Union laws, so that these products do not end up being made back in China again.  Ship building, electric car manufacturing, greener military armaments, unrestricted wheat and other food production for exporting.  More arcade games built, etc.

Make people financially responsible for their debts.  I remember in the 1990s in So.Cal when those who did not pay child support were treated to TV airtime before the news.  Name and shame.  Make people think twice before borrowing.

Bring back debtors' work/poor houses.  It worked in the Victorian days, why not now?  So you would have to change some laws.  Big deal.  ;D

Time for America to dig deep and find itself again.  Oh and stop spending on pointless wars.  ::)
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2010, 09:37:04 pm »


Bring back debtors' work/poor houses.  It worked in the Victorian days, why not now?  So you would have to change some laws.  Big deal.  ;D

Time for America to dig deep and find itself again.  Oh and stop spending on pointless wars.  ::)

That is a very bad idea. Poor houses were exactly that. places where people who were flat broke (and in those times, born into it and destined to always be) could at least be some value to society. Misguided because a better value to society (which they started to realise around Victorian times in England, earlier in the US) is to raise the standards for people. Better education, opportunities etc.

I digress. If you are referring to people who have recently declared bankruptcy working in a 'poor house', then this is a step backwards for society. In Victorian times, a poorhouse worker had no skills. They were put to work making pins or bricks or what have you. Modern american bankrupts for the most part have many and varied skills. You really want mechanics, bakers, truck drivers, sales people, pilots etc making plastic bags instead? Is that how your economy will recover?


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2010, 10:14:10 pm »
Dont blame the banks guys...

Blame the consumer for leveraging themselves & not planning ahead
Blame the agencies that fibbed regarding the AAA bond rating
Blame the government for pushing Fannie & Freddie to extend credit
Blame the person who was given a subprime lifeline & a chance to turn it all around but then blew it just to cry for help
Blame yourselves for having 401ks & mutual funds packed with mortgage securities to keep the wheels turning for everyone
Blame people who financed more than 25% of their monthly income

ARM loan increasing? Well you must have been a real POS before that ARM because anyone with good credit has had a 3.25% rate on their adjusted mortgage for the last 2+ years & will continue to do so for several more years since the LIBOR is so weak. America lost its 2nd chances when subprime died. The person with that subprime ARM is subprime because they already defaulted before even applying for the new mortgage, years ago. So do we blame the banks from back in the day who gave this person money back when they had good credit? I mean they created this monster thats now asking for subprime money right?

Think about this.. bad credit = difficulties with acquiring a good job (which makes the repair process take longer), higher insurance costs (which makes the repair process take longer),  bad places to rent at best & no traditional ways to borrow means you get payday or title loans only (which makes the repair process take longer). Also dont think its only 7 years of bad luck either because it could take you 7 more years just to get in a position where that defaulted debt thats stacking with fees (which makes the repair process take longer) is finally PAID off & reporting as positive. So now we lost some serious ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, a slew of people who will be unable to buy anything for a long time with no 2nd chances to fall back on.

Banks offering too much credit? Um no, banks dont lend their own money guys. Its all about agencies & investors buying paper, thats where all the money came from not the banks & thats why lenders lost their liquidity, not due to regulation but to to investors fearing the investment of buying paper.

The government blasted the banks for stated loans & 125%'s. Now the government has the HARP program that "helps people with income troubles refi up to 125%" which sure sounds a lot like the loans they regulated away wow. Let me correct myself, they mentioned regulation which scared the investors & over the course of 72 hours subprime crashed because investors didnt want to dump money into endangered species, then we lost our liquiduty & the bottom finally fell out with no 2nd chances for I dunno half our country

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2010, 11:47:25 pm »
Quote
The banks deserve a much bigger share of the blame from a societal perspective. When I make a bad financial decisions, I affect me (and my family).

When the bank makes bad financial decisions, they effect... well, the entire economy as we saw.

Lenders aren't stupid; they have models which are certainly well established enough to know pretty accurately who is and isn't a good credit risk. Yes banks want to make as much money as possible, but far from that being an incentive to make bad loans, it's an incentive only to make loans where the expected reward is worth the risk.

So what happened? The problem is that the banks were essentially coerced into making many of these loans. The Community Reinvestment Act first enacted during the Carter administration and then strengthened under President Clinton encouraged banks to make loans more readily available to less than ideal borrowers. Many of these loans were then repackaged and sold to Fannie and Freddie, which investors (correctly, as it turns out) considered safe because their status as government sponsored entities would preclude them from defaulting.

I'm deliberately trying to avoid placing blame on any one individual or party (not that I don't have my opinions), but the argument is pretty compelling that the federal government's involvement in housing and mortgages intefered with the free operation of the credit market. And to reiterate something I said earlier, banks have zero financial motive to make loans that are unlikely to be repaid.

I spent a lot of years in the retail auto industry, working in areas where we dealt with a ton of subprime auto loans. And while default rates were certainly higher on submprime loans than more conventional loans, they were not excessive. Why? Because subprime auto lenders demanded a tremendous amount of information from potential borrowers. Proof of income, extended proof of employment, lots of references, proof of address via a utlity bill or rental agreement, etc. Show up to buy a car with an 800 credit score and you could finance 110% with little more than a signature. Those with 550 credit scores needed 20% or more down and all the docs mentioned earlier. Were the auto lenders smarter than mortgage companies in making sure they knew the risk they were assuming? I don't see why they would be. They just operated in a less regulated market, and thus were better able to accurately assess risk and turn down loans where that risk was excessive.

So yes, banks have much more effect on the economy as a whole than any individual borrower. But the government can screw things up far more than any number of banks. And this financial mess is a direct result of too much government inteference rather than too little government oversight.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2010, 12:37:07 am »
And to reiterate something I said earlier, banks have zero financial motive to make loans that are unlikely to be repaid.


The incentive was that a bank could repackage those risks as another form of investment and sell it on, and on, and on. A game of musical chairs, but no prize at the end. Well, not in the US anyway  ;)

I bet there was no such repackaging of risks with car loans...


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2010, 01:53:58 am »
Banks deserve to be blamed because they were making sound financial decisions and it was despicable.  when banks were handing out loans to people whose credit and income didn't begin to justify lending such a large amount it wasn't cos the banks had gone delusional and decided to ignore their formulas and just hope that somehow these people would think of some way to pay back the bank.  The banks are professionals.  They lended to these people because it wasn't a risk.  The real estate market was booming.  The bank knew they'd be foreclosing on a ton of these properties, but they'd be able to recoup their losses at foreclosure. 

And this is why they deserve blame.  The average person was looking at the market and getting caught up in the hysteria and making stupid decisions.  The banks were just making evil ones.  People were selling their houses for an upgrade and sinking all the equity they'd been building into their new house--a house that the bank, with their sophisticated formulas, planned from the beginning to eventually foreclose on.  They were just stealing the life's work of people who were, of course, less financially sophisticated.  It was a ---smurfing--- scam and people who want to let the banks off the hook are nuts.  Those loans weren't just reckless.  They were disgusting. 

Those bankers were nothing more than Nigerian princes with means.  Maybe their marks should have been more careful, but you don't just absolve the crook because his victims were gullible enough to fall for his scam.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2010, 02:25:32 am »
Shortly before the market crash, I knew a mortgage broker who specialized in sub-prime loans.  She was making a ton of money at the time, but quit her job because she also hated that her job was to give loans to people who she knew wouldn't be able to afford the loans. 

The banks and the brokers knew exactly what they were doing, but the money was so good that most of them didn't care.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2010, 02:34:18 am »
The money was great.  It took many of those people decades to build all that equity and the banks were able to take it from them like candy.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2010, 02:43:43 am »

  The average person was looking at the market and getting caught up in the hysteria and making stupid decisions. 

 The banks were just making evil ones. 


In a nutshell.


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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #105 on: August 15, 2010, 03:29:06 am »
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=dutch+tulip+collapse&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=d9804d37b84b33a1

Dutch tulip speculative bubble, simply some organic material selling for more than the salary of average working mans wages for an entire year. Then after the most expensive bulb failed to sell at an auction people's prized bulbs were worth the same as a common onion. History repeats itself: stock market crash 1929, savings & loans crisis of the 80's & now this government subsidized lending& stimilus garbage.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #106 on: August 15, 2010, 08:47:55 am »
Having no money is always the best. And then I mean, no huge money, and no loans. Just hover around 0. That is always safe. Just a little cash to keep things going, but never serious savings nor serious debts. A good realationship, access to good food and some cabs, that's all we need.
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #107 on: August 15, 2010, 09:39:12 am »


Bring back debtors' work/poor houses.  It worked in the Victorian days, why not now?  So you would have to change some laws.  Big deal.  ;D

Time for America to dig deep and find itself again.  Oh and stop spending on pointless wars.  ::)

That is a very bad idea. Poor houses were exactly that. places where people who were flat broke (and in those times, born into it and destined to always be) could at least be some value to society. Misguided because a better value to society (which they started to realise around Victorian times in England, earlier in the US) is to raise the standards for people. Better education, opportunities etc.

I digress. If you are referring to people who have recently declared bankruptcy working in a 'poor house', then this is a step backwards for society. In Victorian times, a poorhouse worker had no skills. They were put to work making pins or bricks or what have you. Modern american bankrupts for the most part have many and varied skills. You really want mechanics, bakers, truck drivers, sales people, pilots etc making plastic bags instead? Is that how your economy will recover?

It is the way forward.  You need a deterrent against borderline fraudulent borrowing and the general stupid.  You need to teach the consumer right from wrong.  I'm not saying poor houses like in Dickens' time, but a community enterprise where skilled workers pay off their debt by working for the local government.  In turn they are rewarded with good food, adequate shelter and on schedule to rebuilding their lives and credit score.  Why does hard work always envision slave labor and pitiless environments?  Why not make the unemployed work for their handouts?  Would you not think that would be a good thing to teach the young?

If you are going to live by government handouts, why not get the jobless to repay the government back by giving services in return.  Throwing more money at the problem isn't going to teach anyone anything.  While I am on the same subject, why not bring back conscription?  Giving the 18-21 year old a trade, instead of putting through college.  Life college is more enduring.  That doesn't mean sending them to Iraq, but home defense, fixing roads and again helping the community.  Is the American Dream not a good ideal to fight for?

Let the weekend National Guard go to Iraq.  >:D
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #108 on: August 15, 2010, 10:10:42 am »
Quote
The incentive was that a bank could repackage those risks as another form of investment and sell it on, and on, and on.
I agree, and I think I said as much. But that gets back to the government interfering with the free operation of the market. Without the ability to sell those loans to an entity that investors considered completely safe - Fannie and Freddie - the risk would have been excessive and wouldn't have been taken.

Quote
The bank knew they'd be foreclosing on a ton of these properties, but they'd be able to recoup their losses at foreclosure.
I've never heard that theory before. Generally, lenders don't want to have to reposess and resell collateral, and even with the market increasing as it was I'm hard pressed to believe all of their costs would be recouped let alone a profit made. Point me in the right direction and I'll read up about this.

Quote
It was a ---smurfing--- scam and people who want to let the banks off the hook are nuts.
I'm not letting them off the hook, but likewise I will not put 100% of the blame on them. The government and the borrowers are both culpable here, and honestly I don't think you need to be financially sophisticated to figure out if you can afford a monthly payment or not. Actually, those buyers who purchased thinking they could refinance after a few years or flip the house for an easy profit got themselves into trouble specifically because they were trying to be sophisticated; the average 'unsophisticated' buyer who just looked at the payment on a 30-year fixed mortgage and determined they could afford it isn't the one who got burned.

Unfortunately, like in many aspects of society lately, those of us who made responsible decisions are paying the price for those who didn't. And that goes back to the government, not the banks. Were it up to me I'd have let banks fail instead of bailing them out. That would have been the easiest way to reset everyone's tolerance for excessive risk.

Endaar

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2010, 02:33:30 pm »

I know some of you have spent upwards of 10, maybe 15, minutes wikiing this topic, but I'd just like to lay out


Cos unlike the rest of us you're a professional.  None of us could be speaking from education or experience.  Seriously . . . sometimes . . . stfu
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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #110 on: August 16, 2010, 10:11:59 pm »
PBJ Ive been in the industry for 8 years.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #111 on: August 16, 2010, 10:45:56 pm »
I haven't really got much to say on the issue as the company I work for, foodstuffs is making more than ever, over 2 billion nz last financial year I think about 6 percent increase. And since we have such a wonderful union I stand to get about an 7.3 percent increase in feb.   
 
I would like to say lol at the guy who thinks the market can fairly decide how much labour is worth, ask chinese/vietnam workers if they think the're on a reasonable wage. 

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2010, 05:29:50 pm »
Perhaps you should look into exactly how much of a free-market economy Vietnam, China or any other number of third world countries have before you use them as examples for the failures of the free market. Even given that, every time a country has moved further away from a centrally-planned model, the standard of living has increased for its citizens.

Meanwhile, why do you need a union? Is the quality of your work such that you wouldn't receive that kind of raise without one? If so, then you are overpaid. If not, can you say the same for all of your coworkers, or are there some who don't lift their weight? Do those people deserve the same raise?

The irony here is that the high cost of labor, which has been driven through the roof by unions among other things, is exactly what sends jobs to third world countries.

And just for the record, I received my own 7%+ raise recently...as one of seven non-union employees out of nearly 500. I guess either I earned it, or I'm just lucky. Must be the later...

Endaar

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2010, 05:53:51 pm »
Can we put an End..aar to your insanity?

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2010, 09:44:42 pm »
I'm no expert but I do understand a bit about export processing zones with horrible work practises.and I find it funny you can defend it. I know there has been progress, especially in china but nothing to write home about. 
 
As for the union yes it is very important where I work. Wish I could explain further but it's hard posting from my phone, I would possibly say i'm over paid but the massive ever increasing profit margins could explain different, technically I earn under industry standard, our main competitor pays a couple dollars an hour more. Also cpi is pretty big this year and theres no way they would be keeping up with that without a union.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2010, 09:51:15 pm »
ps. Maybe you have been watching too much glenn beck.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #116 on: August 18, 2010, 11:56:18 am »
Picking up and moving isnt always the answer and not really the easiest either. Moving to another city and leaving behind your home isnt a 1 day thought process and poof its done.

I have to drive almost 300 miles from Cincinnati, Ohio to Dearborn, Michigan to work each week. It was the only work Ford had for me at the time. In Cincy, I have my home, where the market is really depressed right now, and no sale of my home is imminent. Several homes in my neighborhood are up for sale and at 40% less than market value and no one is buying and not so much a look-see.

As for those that complain about those on unemployment benefits, does it make sense to drive 75 miles for a minimum wage job, just to eat any wages up with fuel cost, wear and tear on your vehicle? After you put the time in for driving and fuel cost, you may have enough left over to maybe but groceries but where is the rent going to come from? I know, work 2-3 jobs if need be, but 75 miles one way to work, then 75 miles back home, then maybe 20 miles to the next job, your killing yourself with miles and fuel. Cheaper to stay home!

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #117 on: August 18, 2010, 04:48:29 pm »
Can we put an End..aar to your insanity?

Sure you can, don't read my posts.

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Re: how is the economy effecting you?
« Reply #118 on: August 18, 2010, 08:56:49 pm »
Ha, ha.
Ah, I'm interested in what you have to say Endaar,
sometimes it just bugs me a bit and I lose my cool.
That be my problem.