Avatar Pinball coming to a location near you

[Flake]

http://s974.photobucket.com/albums/ae228/jfp2673/avatar/?action=view&current=AvatarGame1-1_page1_image1.jpg

I found this on RGP.  Too bad they dont have the playfield pics.  I guess its not designed yet?

[Jeff AMN]

The design is done, I just don't think the final playfield art is finished. They've had some distributors in to play it, and Jack at Pinball Sales says that it's fun. Of course he'd want to spin it somewhat positively as he's going to try to sell them, but he's always been an upfront guy.

We'll see how it turns out. The guys at Stern seem to be pretty excited for the game.

[RayB]

Backglass art design is pretty bad.

Played Iron Man and Big Buck Hunter again yesterday. Still think Iron Man is "slow" and Big Buck is quite fun with several "surprise" events.

[Jeff AMN]

Wait...slow? The only part of Iron Man that I really felt was slow was the ball return to the flipper after a ramp shot. Other than the ball is zipping around the playfield, probably too fast.

[RayB]

Play a round of IM and then play BBH. You'll notice. Unless its a case of the IMs up here being set at a less steep playfield angle?? It's two locations now I've played both and had the exact same impressions.

[pinballwizard79]

I like the artwork, cool

We better hide this thread from Xiao

[meany]

Backglass art design is pretty bad.


They did it that way because the back glass will be in 3D. 

[RayB]

Backglass art design is pretty bad.

They did it that way because the back glass will be in 3D. 

Fer realz?

[Xiaou2]

Whats more exciting, is that they will be re-releasing Avatar 3D in Imax this August.

 

[Jeff AMN]

Play a round of IM and then play BBH. You'll notice. Unless its a case of the IMs up here being set at a less steep playfield angle?? It's two locations now I've played both and had the exact same impressions.

I've played both, they were side by side even. I think BBH is overall the better game, but the license is a real hit or miss scenario. It didn't bug me at all, but I would understand why others would be annoyed by it. Fish Tales is a lot like that. When I had that game nobody wanted to play it for very long because they hated the theme.

I guess an Iron Man on a soft angle could really slow the game down. It's just the few I have played have had the ball whipping around and it caused very short ball times.

I just hope Avatar is better than both of them. Iron Man is kinda fun on location, but it's nothing I'd ever want to own. Big Buck Hunter is pretty much the same way, but it's a lot more interesting from a gameplay standpoint. The only Borg game I've really liked was Jurassic Park. I owned one of those for a few years and was kind of sad to see it go.

[Q*Bert_OP]

The only Borg game I've really liked was Jurassic Park. I owned one of those for a few years and was kind of sad to see it go.

Compare The Adams Family to Jurassic Park...see the similarity? JP is a near copy of TAF...even the ball grabbing dino is similar to "Thing"

[Jeff AMN]

The only Borg game I've really liked was Jurassic Park. I owned one of those for a few years and was kind of sad to see it go.

Compare The Adams Family to Jurassic Park...see the similarity? JP is a near copy of TAF...even the ball grabbing dino is similar to "Thing"

It's no secret that Data East designers often "borrowed" heavily from some of the popular B/W designs and applied them to good licenses. I actually replaced my JP with an Addams...

[Jeff AMN]

Pinball News has some details and pics. Here's one of them. It's really hard to see much, so we'll have to wait for more angles and video. I know I'll be able to play locally, it's just a matter of waiting for the official release now.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Wonder if Kevin will buy one and sell it four times....



 

touche

[Q*Bert_OP]

Jokes aside, planning on buying one?   Iron Man was a decent $1,200ish game with a $4,000 price tag.

Likely. I'll need to see better pics and some video before I can say yes...

[Jeff AMN]

Jokes aside, planning on buying one?   Iron Man was a decent $1,200ish game with a $4,000 price tag.

Heh, I do think it's a good route game, just not one for me in my collection. Tons of people swear that it lasts in a HUO environment, but I just don't see it myself. It's worth dropping $2-3 into when passing by though. I'm hoping Avatar is better than that, I really am.

[Pinball Wizard]

Anyone notice the apron saying 50 cents a play? does that mean that stern finally is going back to old pricing? I personally won't put 75 cents into a game to play it so I hope.

[JeepMonkey]

I am not overly liking it much yet, mabye with more pics...  The theme really doesn't do it for me.

Something about the toy of the guy laying in the little Avatar control chamber really looks crappy.

[Jeff AMN]

What a terrible filming job. They needed to let the camera sit still for a bit so you could get a feel of how fast the ball was moving around, and rather than ridiculous music playing, they should have let us hear the game's sounds and music.

It looks really basic, I just hope those shots are fun to hit, because there isn't a lot of them.

[pinballwizard79]

Agreed with Jeff, thats not the video I hoped for but at least its something.

Damn those plastics are ugly, faded & muted on what could have been a rich & colorful PF.

I hope its cool though

[lilshawn]

Agreed with Jeff, thats not the video I hoped for but at least its something.

Damn those plastics are ugly, faded & muted on what could have been a rich & colorful PF.

I hope its cool though

could just be the camera and the unusual lighting...

[Xiaou2]

The type of Inkjet printer they use produces very poor color ranges... and
thus colors are drab, dark, and faded looking.  Its most especially noted on photographs,
which is basically what they use in most of their games.

 The low resolution does not help either.


 As for the layout... its crud, as expected.  There is no real flow to it... and a
stop-n-shot player isnt going to be challenged/impressed with it either.
All the shots look easy as pie, and plain old boring.

 The thing is butt ugly, does not represent the movies beauty at all.

 The soundtrack was probably so bad/annoying, that they chose to use a generic backing
track on the video.  heh

 The gameplay so bad, that they didnt show any (camera movement/placement tricks,
and edits).

 
 The simplest things like fiber-optic flowers w/ color cycle leds Should have been put it.
It wouldnt have increased the cost a few dollars, and actually drew more attention
than the crappy 3d backbox... as well as actually adding to the value and beauty of
the machine.   Of course, its pretty much a mute point, when they decided to use
such a poor quality print job...

[RayB]

Xiau2: Why would you assume it's "inkjet" ?? Inkjet prints would run/smear when come in contact with moisture. From what I've seen it looks like they are using old fashion "halftone" style printing method that pre-dates digital printing. It results in photos made up of little dot patterns and look like how newspaper photos used to look (ie: like crap).

Here's an exagerrated B&W example of a halftone print:


Maybe it saves on ink costs? Still odd considering the low cost/ high quality of professional digital print services these days.

[Jeff AMN]

I also like that he thinks that a printing style can make a photo's colors look different from a line drawing's colors. Whether it's a photo or an illustration, color is color when it comes to be printed. Photos don't get washed out any more than any other color. Whatever the process they use, it has nothing to do with them using photos in conjunction (or rather than) photos. And besides, many playfields look great. Few playfields look as colorful and lively as The Simpsons Pinball Party or Family Guy. It did help that they had the input of the shows' artists, but they didn't use any special printing processes for those games.

In short, Xiaou2 continues to not know what he's talking about.

[Pinball Wizard]

Remember this is not a complete game at the show. This is a sample game. When we first saw spiderman in the wild it had all red plastics, no artwork. When you saw that did you immediately think WTF this game has stupid plastics? Judge on the production run for artwork. I'll have to agree that the playfield does seem too easy.

[lilshawn]

Few playfields look as colorful and lively as The Simpsons Pinball Party or Family Guy.

kindly remember these are cartoons, not movies. if course they are going to be more colorful...the Simpsons are yellow for cripes sake, nobody is going to notice much if the yellow is off. 

also is it just me or are we looking at some wacky lenticular print 3D artwork for the backbox??

[Xiaou2]

 As far as Ive seen, Halftone is something they use for newspapers, or as a method of
design... Not a print technology.  For example, you can print halftone designs on an
inkjet printer.

 The main types of Printing technologies are:

1) Silk Screen
2) Inkjet

 Silk screening is what they used to use on Pinball & Arcade machines.  Each color
is rolled on individually.  This makes the colors very vivid, because you can directly
apply things like Neon Ink.  You just cant MIX up Neon colors from Red/Green/Blue!

 Because the number of inks are unlimted.. you can achieve excellent color
spectrum ranges.  Meaning... if you want to shade from light blue to dark
blue... you will have more 'steps' between each color.
 

 Inkjet quality is depends on the machine & choice of inks.  These are not your
typical home inkjets.  They are Industrial, but, they use the same technology.

 Just like your home inkjet:

 1) If you want to print photographs that LOOK like real photos, you will need
photo ink packages, and a printer that supports them.  This included things like a
Gloss black, as well as some other ink colors, that simply cant be mixed with
standard 3 color ink setups.  Typical photo inkjets have about 7 ink cartridges,
some have more.

 The same is true even for Traditional Art Paints.  The reason there are more than
5 colors, isnt because of lazy artists who dont want to mix colors up.  Its because
you will never achieve certain colors at correct shades and hues with only base colors.
When you try... you often get muddy colors... that look horrible.  I know this, because
I paint with oils and acrylics.

 2) Similarly, if you want a picture to look very good, you will need to use
the optimal settings (generous ink), as well as Super High resolution.

 3) The Artwork file you use, will also determine how it looks.  Typical pro printers
use CKMY, not RBG.   Realize that windows color output is actually very limited
compared to the real visual color spectrum.   I believe they do have ways to simulate
wider spectrums onscreen & print them in the wider ink-allowed spectrums.


 Sterns Inkjet machine, or the machines which they are paying to run their machines
on, is probably very low resolution, and as a result, they Have to use large dot
pattern artwork...  Or, the art is converted before its printed.

 I seriously doubt its simply to save ink.  If anything, it would be to save time.
High res prints can take a lot longer to print.  Hence the reason why silk-screen
is again preferred.  You can roll out an entire color in seconds, and when
there are more than one field involved, the process in very efficient and fast.


 

Photos don't get washed out any more than any other color.

 I did a good job of explaining it above.  But heres a few key notes:


1) A single color like RED, will be very vivid, because there is red ink in the hopper.

 However, Making PINK requires what? Stippling the red with the background white.
The stipple will make the picture quality worse, and the color itself wont look as good
as if it was a pink ink, or a mixture of red+white.

 Even mixtures of light blue to dark blue, will depend greatly on if there is more than
one blue to mix with, shaded with background white, or adding black.  Black would
seem to be fine right?  Sadly, black mixed with a pure color tends to make it look more
gray and muddy.  Same for adding white.  A pure color will always look 1000x better
and correct than trying to add white/black to it.  In simple terms, adding black & white
reduces the color spectrum when mixing inks/paints.

2) Photos have a very wide color spectrum.  They are not like single color lines.
Even light shading does not compared in spectrum to a typical photograph.
This is why its so noticeable when there is a lack of color spectrum when printing
photos.

3) Using non photo inks create worse photographic results, because they dont
capture the spectrums typical in photographs.  The resulting mixing of poorly matched
inks, will leave the image looking grayish, washed out, blurry... awful.

4) If a printer uses large visible stipples (dot patterns), that means the image is not
true, and you are losing the in-between colors.  Again, loss of spectrum = poor
color range = crappy picture.

5) A Silk-Screened image needs no stipples to mix colors.  Stipples are an artistic
choice.  However, the colors are always solid.  IE: Neon orange, will not be a mixture
of several colors dotted together to try to Look neon.


 They Do make incredible Industrial Inkjet machines, capable of more than 7 color
mixing,  UV resistant inks, and resolution that is so fine you would need a 10x magnifier
to see the dots.   However, you wont see stern using them...

[Pinball Wizard]

also is it just me or are we looking at some wacky lenticular print 3D artwork for the backbox??

That is correct it is a 3D backglass.

[Flake]

Stern playfields are silk screened.

Whats this you say?  Stern uses silk screen?  I hope your right PBJ. 

[Xiaou2]

My mistake, Turns out you are correct.

(though, my descriptions still remain true. IE: Color mixing / dithering faults / photo inks, etc.)

http://www.flippers.be/pinball_cabinets.html

The process Stern chose looks like butt.

[Flake]

Heres the relevant tidbits from the link Xiaou kindly posted:

"Stern also uses a 4-color process for their cabinets and playfields. Some people complain about the dithering on the cabinet artwork caused by this process. Dithering is however nothing new, as Williams cabinets also used gradients and were using a 4-color process on which you can also see the small dots when you look closely.
The difference is that because Stern uses more photo-realistic artwork, dithering can be quite explicit (using all 4 colors) and depends on the source used. Williams used more hand-drawn artwork with solid colors and gradients, dithering was more subtle (only 2 colors) and kept under control by the artist as he made the whole drawing himself."

Seems to me the only difference is Stern uses more photo prints rather than original artwork.  Doesnt seem like much of a difference to me but what the hell do I know?

[billpa]

First off...Xiaou needs to stop pretending he knows anything about printing "technologies".  Anyone that uses the terms CKMY and RBG is obviously clueless.  After that line, I stopped reading the rest of your post.

Stern does use screen printing...but they use a process technique as opposed to spot color.  Process typically involves 4 colors Cyan Magenta Yellow and Black (thats CMYK Xiaou...although K does not stand for Black but for Key...not enough time to teach you everything).  An image is separated into these 4 colors (tinted).  The tint is made up of tiny dots that are placed at different angles.  Then they apply these screens one at a time overprinting eachother.  This composite image makes the complex tonal values possible.  But it is a bit of a trick.  If you look closely you can see the individual dots or as someone else posted...dithering.  But last time I checked my face wasn't 1 inch from the playfield when I am playing.

Halftone is a type of process printing using only one color.  So the newspaper reference is correct.  It is a cheap option...one color ink and done.

Someone else posted about Wiliams using process printing...but look closely as it states their cabinets...not their playfields.  They used spot printing for their playfields...definitely more costly as you need to mix each individual color and there are more screens.  And good call on the thick black lines PBJ...that is definitely a technique to hide a lack of technique

I prefer the spot colored cartoony artwork over the photoshop collage type design Stern uses.  However, I completely understand why they use it.  To cut costs.  They can use all of the licensed photography and a printing process that only uses 4 colors.  Overall I think they look pretty good although I think they could have a little bit more QC when their stuff goes out.  I have seen a few alignment issues with playfields...Family Guy comes to mind.

I don't really understand the Stern bashing.  It's the last pinball company standing and they have put out some good titles (and some bad...but what company hasn't?).  I think the most disturbing trend I have seen is people wanting to see Stern fail so another company can step up and build better pins.  Um, why can't a company do that now?  Oh yea...because pinball itself is pretty dead and the amount of money to invest in an operation like that is incredible...and it would be financial suicide.

[RayB]

First off...Xiaou needs to stop pretending he knows anything about printing "technologies".  Anyone that uses the terms CKMY and RBG is obviously clueless.  After that line, I stopped reading the rest of your post.
----8<----
Halftone is a type of process printing using only one color.  So the newspaper reference is correct.  It is a cheap option...one color ink and done.

Well, the newspaper reference is not correct as it was stated. Not "only" newspapers use it. Just look at the side-art of many classic machines and you'll see half-tone patterns used to create gradients and optically blend two colors etc. (So you can save money by using only yellow and red, but get the optical illusion of an orange via the halftoning)

ANYWAYS.......... brevity; It's a great thing. Bye

[billpa]

Yes...exactly! That is how gradients are achieved with spot printing.  I believe playfields even have that technique. Funhouse comes to mind but I am sure there are a lot more.  They could also tint a specific color by creating a dot pattern.  For example...a blue color could look light blue if it was printed in a dot pattern over white ink.  Your eyes naturally blend the details together to create this intermediate color.

[RayB]

<offtopic>
Are any of you old-time graphic designers? Do you remember using those Letraset dry transfer halftone patterns? Oh those were the days! LOL
</offtopic>

[pinballwizard79]

XiaoPoo you lost me

[lilshawn]

c'mon really?!? if you want a piece of high quality art, buy some artwork. if you want a pinball machine buy a machine. you people have been soiled by HDTV and blueray dvd's. the price of new machines are high enough without having it cost $2000 to have the playfield and the box printed.

enjoy pinball machines while they last people, they ain't gon' be round much longer.

[Jeff AMN]

enjoy pinball machines while they last people, they ain't gon' be round much longer.

 

[JeepMonkey]

enjoy pinball machines while they last people, they ain't gon' be round much longer.

Are there many people that know they are still around now??

[JeepMonkey]

There's a persistent RGP belief that "if people just knew they existed, sales would be through the roof!!!!"

I do not agree with that argument.  You could tell everyone in the country that the brand new "Insert Theme" pinball machine is now on sale, and I doubt sales would go up much at all.  But I do believe that there would be way more people say "I didn't know they still made pinball machines" than "Yeah, I have been waiting to see the newest machine".

[Jeff AMN]

Most special reports about pinball start out with, "Remember pinball? Did you know that a small company in Chicago is still making them? Come with us as we take a look at ... ".

[RayB]

Coincidentally, the local Toronto TV station just did a couple segments on their morning show about "Church of the Silverball"

Part 1: http://video.citytv.com/video/detail/407526692001.000000/canadas-only-handson-pinball-machine-museum-pt1of2/

Part 2: http://video.citytv.com/video/detail/407530109001.000000/canadas-only-handson-pinball-machine-museum-pt2of2/

(sound is REALLY low, so jack yours up).

[Xiaou2]

c'mon really?!? if you want a piece of high quality art, buy some artwork. if you want a pinball machine buy a machine. you people have been soiled by HDTV and blueray dvd's. the price of new machines are high enough without having it cost $2000 to have the playfield and the box printed.

 The price for a pinball machine has not gone up much, but what you Get for your
money, has gone down severely...

 If you pay $4000+ for a machine, its a luxury item.  Not a Kmart special.  It should be
decked out too the hilt.  The playfield art, being high priority, done by a Real classically
trained/Natural  Artist.  A pinball machine is a Kinetic work of art.

 What other field of Industry gives you Less for your money in successive years?

New Cars: Airbags, navigation, 6 disc DVD players, power heated seats..etc.

Computer: Before, 2gb hard drive included.  Now, 1 Terrabyte drive included.

Cell phone: Before, 10lb brick.  Now, small, plays games, takes pictures, sends emails...

[Xiaou2]

I do not agree with that argument.  You could tell everyone in the country that the brand new "Insert Theme" pinball machine is now on sale, and I doubt sales would go up much at all.

 Pinball isnt mainstream.  For one thing, its never been sold at Stores, besides recent
years, by one or two small chains.

 You dont see these at the local Walmart, Sears, BestBuy, etc.

 People have to see the thing for sale, and be able to test play it, for a sale to be made.
Very few people buy such an expensive thing without seeing/playing it.

 You put 5  MM pins in Walmart stores (one unboxed ready for test play)
for $3000 a pop, all over the place, and Id bet they would sell out in less than a year.
  People would use credit cards to get them home if they didnt have the cash.

 But the general masses are not going to know about some guy making them in
Austrailia.  They are not going to pre-order.  They are not going to have pins shipped
to them, never player before.

 They also are not going to pay $5000 for a Generic pile of Stern Crap, no matter
where they put them.

[Pinball Wizard]

I do not agree with that argument.  You could tell everyone in the country that the brand new "Insert Theme" pinball machine is now on sale, and I doubt sales would go up much at all.

 Pinball isnt mainstream.  For one thing, its never been sold at Stores, besides recent
years, by one or two small chains.

 You dont see these at the local Walmart, Sears, BestBuy, etc.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00697635000P?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00698739000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00698740000P?prdNo=8&blockNo=8&blockType=G8

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM257530996P?prdNo=14&blockNo=14&blockType=G14

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM257531730P?prdNo=18&blockNo=18&blockType=G18

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00697634000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

[Xiaou2]

Hmm, seems we have a Reading Comprehension problem  ehh?

 Sears as in "RETAIL LOCATIONS"

   Not "ONLINE ONLY"  (as directly stated On the website link)

You dont see these at the local Walmart, Sears, BestBuy, etc.

 People have to see the thing for sale, and be able to test play it, for a sale to be made.
Very few people buy such an expensive thing without seeing/playing it.

[Xiaou2]

Sorry, but no.  MM is not a magical machine that will save everything.

 Never said it would fix everything.   However, the number of Pins sold in Retail
would be a real jolt of needed business... as well as put Pinball into the mainstream
public.

 Putting a pile of crap out there like Shrek (which as noted, isnt even on-location)
isnt going to do anything but Hurt public mainstream opinion.   Its gota be
a really nice machine that both looks and plays very good.

 

[Pinball Wizard]

Hmm, seems we have a Reading Comprehension problem  ehh?

 Sears as in "RETAIL LOCATIONS"

   Not "ONLINE ONLY"  (as directly stated On the website link)

You dont see these at the local Walmart, Sears, BestBuy, etc.

 People have to see the thing for sale, and be able to test play it, for a sale to be made.
Very few people buy such an expensive thing without seeing/playing it.

Well I will admit I didn't read the sears link but for a short time apparently we had these in our sears.

[RayB]

Putting a pile of crap out there like Shrek (which as noted, isnt even on-location)
isnt going to do anything but Hurt public mainstream opinion.   Its gota be
a really nice machine that both looks and plays very good.

Now why the hell is the average mainstream person out there going to think that Shrek is "a pile of crap"?? You put a brand new Shrek in a Walmart and it will look like a gold-encrusted Cadillac compared to the rest of the store merchandise. You seriously over-rate the average mainstream consumer, especially Walmart shoppers.

What will really happen is they will think its cool, but too expensive regardless if it's Shrek, Medieval Madness or whatever. Walmart doesn't even carry higher-end TVs.  Sharper Image might be the better store to try this in.

[Xiaou2]

Umm, more than half of America shops at wallmart... from typical moms, to electrical
engineers. Its called Convenience.  They are Everywhere.

 And Yes, Shrek is NOT going to be considered a Must Buy at +$4000.  Anyone test
playing it for a mere 60 seconds will walk away unimpressed... in both look and play.

 (Hence the reason why the few test locations have not sold crap)

 However, you put a Williams IJ in store (or similar such as MM, TOM, CFTBL..etc.), able
to be played, and anyone playing them for a few minutes can easily get hooked and
change all their financial plans to accommodate a brand new pin.

 Walmart can get away with selling consumers low priced Blenders... but its not
going to sell masses of +$3000 piles of crap.  I dont care how un-informed people are.
Its really gota Pop to get anyones wallet to open that far...  And Shrek does Not Pop.


 They would have had much better luck trying to sell LOTR (which is a LOT nicer
visually, has a better theme, and plays OK - at least, Much better than Shrek, and even
that would pale in sales compared to something as simple as Haunted House, or something like TOM.  Remember, the thing has to grab you to the point where you
simply cant live without it.  Even LOTR does not have that level of draw IMOP.

 Its much the same reason why people wont even go up to these machines On Location
to drop coin.  They are horribly generic and craptastic.  They dont incite much if any
desire to play at all.

[Pinball Wizard]

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

[Jeff AMN]

Back when pinball was much better off than it is today, the GLORIOUS AND UNTOUCHABLE Medieval Madness couldn't even move 4,000 units. They produced barely over 4,000 of them, and once you take out the ones they kept for employees, the ones that got warehoused, and the ones that just didn't get sold, that leaves you at under 4,000. I like Medieval Madness, I think it's a great game. I do not think it has nearly the pull Xaiou2 thinks it does, nor will I ever.

This should probably be reposted...

Xiaou2 is a robot. He has absolutely no concept of personal opinion. He's been pre-programmed to like a handful of games and completely hate the rest. There's a list his overlords uploaded to his memory banks. When approaching a pinball machine the following logic process takes place in his brain.

1. If game is on [master list] proceed to 2. If game is not found on [master list], continue to 4.
2. Play game and sing its praises no matter what perceived drawbacks or issues the game might have. Continue to 3.
3. Access [bull**** reasons list]. Use list to explain why game is better than any game not found on [master list]. Spread message on BYOAC. Regardless of BYOAC feedback, continue to 7.
4. Do not play game, even if free play is enabled. Run to BYOAC and tell anybody who likes the game that they are incredibly wrong. Access [master list] for random examples of superior games. Continue to 5.
5. If negative reaction is received, continue to 6.
6. Access [even more bull**** reasons list]. Use list to explain why you are correct to put down game not found on [master list]. Ignore all replies unless to only more adamantly restate your point and to draw from [even more bull**** reasons list] once more. End Program.
7. Disappear from pinball forum for 3 weeks. Return only if game not found on [master list] is discussed. Return to 6.

For today's market, a license like Shrek or Family Guy has much more pull and appeal for the masses than does Medieval Madness. It doesn't matter what game is superior, it matters what people are willing to play and try out.

[Flake]

Dear God, didnt we already discuss the marketibilty of pinball back in this thread?  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=103359.0;all

I believe there was a post about an arcade full of great WILLIAMS games in a crowded arcade that no one was playing.  I mean doesnt that pretty much give a real life example of how dead pinball is?  I mean even if Wal-Mart wanted to sell $3K MM machines they cant because some schmuck in Australia owns the license so who gives a ---fudgesicle---?

This whole debate is really meaningless.....and tiresome.  I suppose its my own fault for not turning off the notifications on this thread.

[pinballwizard79]

Yeah ---fudgesicle--- kangaroos & the mick dundee pinball theif, its Avatar time!

Funny how Avatar rights are more accessible to a pinball manufacturer than some old WMS or Gottelib rights.

To my Aussie BYOAC'rs I am sorry for the crocodile dundee reference its all I know other than fosters 

[Pinball Wizard]

I don't understand this, John Borg designed this game, yet Stern didn't want to take on Steve Ritchie's version that he had started in 2008 during movie production.

[Q*Bert_OP]

I don't understand this, John Borg designed this game, yet Stern didn't want to take on Steve Ritchie's version that he had started in 2008 during movie production.

Steve Ritchie owns his design, Stern does not. Steve Ritchie Productions did commission based work for Stern, and was not employed like John Borg...Stern bought designs from Steve Ritchie, but anything created by Borg is owned by Stern.

[Pinball Wizard]

IIRC Stern did buy into Ritchie's design and just didn't produce it. I do know that Steve Ritchie doesn't work for Stern he own Steve Ritchie Productions just like Pat Lawlor is the same way. I just must of misunderstood the events that occurred between Steve and Stern.

[Xiaou2]

Back when pinball was much better off than it is today, the GLORIOUS AND UNTOUCHABLE Medieval Madness couldn't even move 4,000 units.

 IS Pinball better back then? Not so sure about that. Because there was stiff
competition with video games (as well as other pin mfg)... and the Home enthusiast
was not even in the equation.  Also, The advertisement for a game like MM was horrible
& thin to say the Least.  MM was also in the tail end of the video game era... where
game income was flat-lining, & standard arcade games costs were skyrocketing
(huge 52" projector screen games, massive dual sitdowns..etc)

 Today, there is basically no competition with arcade vids & other Pin Mfgs. 
However, selling to ops today is very difficult, because most are out of buis.
Then again, many Ops are buying pins to resell them later.

 The advantages today, is the Home gameroom sales.  There is a ton of opportunity
that never used to exist... merely because people didnt think it was possible to
purchase them.

 You put a good pin like MM in the local Walmarts, and it will get 1 Million times
more exposure to potential clients than the days when it was about to be released to
the Arcade industry.

 Granted, at  +$3000 a pop, pins are not going to sell like candy.  However, they
have potential to sell better than current and past methods.

 I have a feeling Stern couldnt even sell 4000 pins of something like Family guy. 
They are probably sitting in a warehouse waiting to be stripped of parts.

  LOTR has a production of like 5000, and that is basically their best pin.  (The pin
which was spared the least amount of budget cuts, and even was re-ran)

 This was sold to ops who resold to home owners.  Most people paid retail, or close
to it, were home buyers.  5000 home purchases is nothing small to sneeze at...
and yet, that is just the tip of the iceberg of sales possibilities.  LOTR isnt that good,
and plenty of people do not own it... nor care less to own it.  It wasnt in the local
walmarts, which still could drum up at least one more large run. 

 (Instead, they choose to put the worst machines on test Sales locations.
BRILLIANT STERN!)

For today's market, a license like Shrek or Family Guy has much more pull and appeal for the masses than does Medieval Madness. It doesn't matter what game is superior, it matters what people are willing to play and try out.

 Sorry, but thats not true at all.

 You put a shrek / family guy next to a MM, TOM, etc  in a walmart, and the shrek/fg
will get 1/10th the plays, and 1/1000th  the purchases.  Meaning, youd sell 1000 TOM
to 1 FG/Shrek.

 Similarly, if you put a LOTR next to just about Any of Sterns machines, and the
LOTR will take the cake.

 The quality is what people will notice, be attracted to, want to play/purchase,
much more so than  generic well known themes.

 
 Marketing is for eggheads who dont know anything about reality of what they are
selling.  Markers were the ones behind Marble Madness II, and their stupid ideas
Ruined a possibly great sequel. 

 If it wasnt for on-site tests, the game would have been produced in Mass, and they
would have lost their shirts long before the final days of typical operations.  Yet, Stern is
not testing EXTERNALLY. 

 Sterns is producing a Theory, that with lower quality... they can make more money...
so should be able to stay alive.  That theory can be tested in one week time,
using the poor-quality -vs- well known quality good pins  'onsite' tests.

 You could easily put MM, TOM -vs- FG, SM,  out at a walmart,  and ask people which
one are they most attracted to.  Giving them credits, which one they chose to play
first, and which out of all of them did they like the best.  Which one, if they were
for sale, would they want to purchase.

 Sterns chepo quality theory would be blown right out of the water.  SO would your
theory that cheaply made generic theme would trump a quality made Original theme.

 The only reason Original themes didnt sell in the past, was because it was Ops
who were doing the buying, and they thought the same way... that unknown theme
would not draw people to play.  And yet, just how much money did Johnny Mnemonic,
Judge Dread, sega? Batman.. really earn an OP?  I can tell you it wasnt much.  (much
much less than the better playing original themed "NO Fear" we had sitting next to them
making all the money)

 

[Jeff AMN]

Errors in the above post:

1. Stern does do "external" testing on location
2. Pinball is far worse off than it ever was in the '90s.
3. Home sales are nowhere near as big as location sales used to be
4. Licensed titles have ALWAYS sold better than original themes...and it's not even close.
5. No Fear is a licensed title, and a pretty poor and extremely dated license
6. I better stop now or else I won't get any work done, but there's at least 3-4 more really poorly defended or outright false claims made there...

[pinballwizard79]

---fudgesicle--- not this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- again.

Look Stern is cool, WMS is cool, DE is cool & etc....they all offer different flavors of pinball.

If WMS is so ---smurfing--- cool why are they out of business & getting their IP panhandled & pimped like a hooker by a hoarding Australian?

Money cash hoes money cash hoes whuuut!

Edit: F Billy Mitchell too

Edit again: Did Xiao just say MM would out earn Shrek @ walmart? WTF dude a "cloudy with meatballs" machine would out earn a MM in this day & age.

[RayB]

At least they are trying to reach new audiences:

Stern at ComiCon:
http://www.sternpinball.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=107

[lilshawn]

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

*waves hands in the air side to side*

[billpa]

Did Xiao just say MM would out earn Shrek @ walmart? WTF dude a "cloudy with meatballs" machine would out earn a MM in this day & age.

[Xiaou2]

I said it would "Out Sell".  Not out earn.

 Little 5yr olds dont count in the scale of pin sales and earnings.

 The age range more appropriate to Pins is at least 8... more like 10 to adult.

1. Stern does do "external" testing on location

 Not the testing I spoke of.

 Non-final testing of 'whitewoods' , are done in-house.  Most of the proto-art phase is
also done in-house.  Imagine telling your boss that the game looked like butt, and played
like butt.  It wont happen... so the resulting feedback will not be correct.

 The test they do is more like a quality control check... to see how well the game
holds up.  Not a customer feedback type of situation.  Stern does not want nor
care about feedback.

2. Pinball is far worse off than it ever was in the '90s.
3. Home sales are nowhere near as big as location sales used to be

 Where do you think all those Location pins are today?  Yup... Home owners bought them.

 Actually, there is more interest in Pinball today, than there ever was in the late 90s.
Not to play on location... but to own a real machine(s).   All the Virtual pinball stuff
really getting people interested and hooked... looking for real machines that they
enjoy playing virtually.

 Huge Demand for Pinball pretty much was during the EM days and the 80s.
After that, desire to play pinball pretty much faded away as Video games took over.
Arcades purchased a few pins for variety, but not really for earnings... cause they
didnt make squat comparatively, and they were a maintenance nightmare.

 People talk about the Video Game Crash of the 80s.. but oddly, here in upstate
NY, in one small city, we had about 5 major arcades all going strong.  The Fact was that
CA game MFG's were used to a much higher game turnover and purchase rates.  They
were geared too high, and when interest went from Hype levels to Avg. playing levels...
they were left with too much surplus and lower order numbers.  They also had
10x the competition by that time.

 The industry really didnt have a grasp of what was happening,  and couldnt
adapt proportionately.   It was pretty much like that for Pinball.  Should have failed
in the late 80s... but managed to keep going merely because of the Arcade
structure.  Arcades made a killin on Pins before vids, and the MGT. probably
thought it would be bad to completely eliminate them... even if they were doing
poorly.   Sorta like Skeeball, which takes up a ton of room... but does not make
that much money.

 Once the Arcade infrastructure started to fall apart, orders for vids dropped... and
pins were rarely, if ever, purchased again.  Pinball 2000 tried to Change pinball... but
it did so in a bad way... and players rarely put more than 2 games on the things.
Even though some Arcades bought them, many were satisifed to do without them,
knowing Pinball just wasnt profitable enough... especially when sales were sliding,
game prices rising.

 There are very few arcades left, and few places that actually have room & desire to
put a pinball machine in.  The Ops are almost completely shut down & retired, or hangin
on by a string.  The only place left... is home / collector sales... or the few large locations
such as Amusement parks, who just buy whatever is new, without thinking about it.

 Personally, I know about 12 locals here in my city who have more than one pin.
In fact, I know a few that have entire basements full of them.  I know there are plenty
more out there as well, who I have not met.  Theres one woman here who got
into Pinball recently, bought a pinball about every 2 years since being in the hobby.

 

4. Licensed titles have ALWAYS sold better than original themes...and it's not even close

 To whom?  It was Top Mgt. that ordered them.  Not home buyers.  Guess what?
Today is different.  Its home buyers keeping Stern alive... and just like many of the
Licensed games tanked in earnings... Home buyers are not going to buy a pile
of poor quality Crap for +$3000.

 In fact, I didnt even bring up License in the more recent posts.  Batman, Spiderman,
etc... COULD be good games.  But when Stern touches them.. they turn into 1st rate
Garbage. Very Sad to say, but Ive had more fun playing the OLD spiderman pin than
Sterns POS.

 Of course, being that this is about Avatar... I guess it only fair to spit out how
stupid it is of a License choice.  Much like how they chose WOF & Ripleys.
Stern just has Horrible taste, and makes the worst decisions.  I wonder who else will
give that bumbling Idiot money to lose!  lol

 They should make a pinball called "Gary Stern".  You would take the role of Stern, and
every time you hit a target, you would reduce the quality of the pinball machines you were
virtually making.   In video mode, you must keep the Designers from adding features, and
get bonus points for cutting almost all the features of the game out.  Video mode 2: When
people complain, you must press the volume button up so they become inaudible.
Wizard mode = you must convince an investor that you can make Massive sales from the
License of  "Little house on the Prarie".

 The game could be a cult classic.  Conversations and Quotes from Stern could be
re-voiced over... such as when Steve Ritche told Stern people on the newsgroups were
complaining... and Stern said something like: "Cant you just shut the site down?".

 

5. No Fear is a licensed title, and a pretty poor and extremely dated license

 I never really paid much attention, considering I dont follow any sports.  But as said,
the game plays better than a lot of other games, such JD, and most all the new Sterns.
It did well in the Arcade on a consistent basis... unlike the other pins.

 It creme's a theme like BBH by lightyears.  Better sound track, fun & superior voice work.
Better looking playfield.  Its also not a theme that will become Dated.  "Extreme" is an
attitude, and it will always be in-style.  Unlike WOF, Ripleys, CSI..etc.

[Pinball Wizard]

5. No Fear is a licensed title, and a pretty poor and extremely dated license

 I never really paid much attention, considering I dont follow any sports.

I know, I know  but here goes nothing: If you don't know what the hell you are talking about don't talk about it. Plain and simple. Think about what you are typing and research with actual facts not just things you assume or think you may know.

[Zero_Hour]

If WMS is so ---smurfing--- cool why are they out of business & getting their IP panhandled & pimped like a hooker by a hoarding Australian?

I think they're out of pins, because they're making it hand over fist building slots.
http://ir.wms.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=76037&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1455881&highlight=

[RayB]

If WMS is so ---smurfing--- cool why are they out of business & getting their IP panhandled & pimped like a hooker by a hoarding Australian?

I think they're out of pins, because they're making it hand over fist building slots.
http://ir.wms.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=76037&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1455881&highlight=

They'd be making 10x that if they could sell pins in Walmart.

[RayB]

Gameplay: